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Archived Transcript for 30 January 2002: Pages
251 to 322
251
1 MR MANNING: "Why don't you give a house to my mum, you
2 disrespect my mum", words to that effect.
3 MR SHELDON: Was Victoria told to say that in advance or did
4 she come up with that on her own?
5 MR MANNING: In my presence I cannot recall words being said
6 that "you got to say that", but you see you got to
7 realise in the household was, well, there were three
8 languages spoken. I only speak one proficiently amongst
9 the three of us. English is my only natural tongue.
10 Victoria's English was improving but it was pretty
11 broken and then they would be conversing in French and
12 Nzima between Marie and Victoria as well. So to my ears
13 I did not hear the words being said that "you have got
14 to say this" at that time.
15 MR SHELDON: I see, thank you. Was any care taken on that
16 visit to make sure that the flat was well presented,
17 clean and tidy?
18 MR MANNING: It was normally as clean as we could make it,
19 but yes it was -- a visit was being made, it was being
20 made clean for the visit, especially clean, yes.
21 MR SHELDON: Now, by this stage, and it is the end
22 of October, the sofabed had been thrown away, is that
23 right?
24 MR MANNING: That was in October, that is right, yes.
25 MR SHELDON: I am sorry, we have a fire alarm test starting
252
1 here.
2 MR MANNING: So I can hear. (Pause).
3 MR SHELDON: I am sorry about that, the test is over and we
4 can carry on now.
5 MR MANNING: No worries.
6 MR SHELDON: You said that by this stage, this visit at the
7 end of October, the sofabed had been thrown away.
8 MR MANNING: That is right, yes.
9 MR SHELDON: We know where you say Victoria was sleeping by
10 this stage and we will not go into that. But was the
11 question of where she was sleeping dealt with by
12 Lisa Arthurworrey when she came to talk to you at the
13 flat?
14 MR MANNING: I think it was raised, yes.
15 MR SHELDON: And what was she told?
16 MR MANNING: I think she was told Marie and Victoria slept
17 in the bed and I slept on the sofabed because one
18 sofabed had been thrown out but I had two sofabeds in
19 the place when they first moved in.
20 MR SHELDON: I see, so when they first moved in you had one
21 bed and two sofabeds?
22 MR MANNING: When they first moved in I had two sofabeds and
23 no bed. After that I brought the bed, it was just
24 a single bed and Victoria had been sleeping on the older
25 of the two sofabeds. That was thrown out, it was just
253
1 a bed that I bought that was left there and the sofabed
2 that was there originally. So Lisa was told that Marie
3 and Victoria slept on the bed which was in one corner of
4 the bedsit and I slept on the sofabed which was folded
5 up as a sofa which was on the other end of the bedsit.
6 MR SHELDON: I see, thank you. Do you remember
7 Lisa Arthurworrey telling Marie during the course of
8 that visit that her housing application had been turned
9 down?
10 MR MANNING: Vaguely, I cannot remember exactly but I think
11 we probably were told.
12 MR SHELDON: Do you remember her saying anything to this
13 effect, that the housing application had been turned
14 down because Victoria was not at risk of serious harm?
15 MR MANNING: I cannot remember the exact words so I will not
16 confirm that, sorry, I cannot confirm that.
17 MR SHELDON: Regardless of whether or not I have got the
18 exact words right, and I do not know exactly what
19 Lisa Arthurworrey said either, but were you given that
20 impression, that Victoria was not in sufficient danger
21 for the housing application to be successful?
22 MR MANNING: I remember that vaguely, I remember the
23 application being turned down. It was not successful
24 because she got the letter as well also from the
25 Council. In terms of the danger statement I cannot
254
1 confirm it, I cannot say "yes" or "no".
2 MR SHELDON: I see, thank you. Do you remember once Marie
3 had been told that the application had been turned down
4 there was some discussion as to what her options were
5 now that she was not going to get housing from Haringey?
6 MR MANNING: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: And one of the options, according to
8 Lisa Arthurworrey's note, was that Marie and Victoria
9 could return to France and live in their house there.
10 Do you remember that?
11 MR MANNING: Yes, I remember the option of going back to
12 France, yes.
13 MR SHELDON: Now, the note that Lisa made is to the effect
14 that she was told by Marie that Marie was thinking about
15 that and was waiting to get some money from some friends
16 in France to fund her return journey. Do you remember
17 her saying something along those lines?
18 MR MANNING: Yes, fair enough, yes.
19 MR SHELDON: Was there anything that took place during
20 either of those two visits that we have discussed that
21 would have led Lisa Arthurworrey to think that Victoria
22 was not a happy and well looked after child?
23 MR MANNING: No, there was nothing said or done.
24 MR SHELDON: Is that because you and Marie took some care to
25 present that image to Lisa?
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1 MR MANNING: It was not the case, it was not discussed, it
2 was not the impression given.
3 MR SHELDON: Did Marie for example do anything during the
4 course of those two visits to suggest she was anything
5 other than a caring mother?
6 MR MANNING: She was a caring mother, that is the impression
7 she gave, yes.
8 MR SHELDON: That was the impression she gave?
9 MR MANNING: A mother, she was. Not an impression, that is
10 what she was, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Apart from being a bit cramped, the flat would
12 have seemed okay, would it not; clean, tidy?
13 MR MANNING: It was liveable, yes.
14 MR SHELDON: Just dealing with the second visit for
15 a moment, do you remember Marie being slightly agitated
16 during the course of that interview with Lisa?
17 MR MANNING: Offhand I cannot remember exactly but I imagine
18 when she is told that her application was not successful
19 that may have led to discussion but I cannot remember
20 anything specific.
21 MR SHELDON: I see. Now, you had rows with Marie from time
22 to time, did you not?
23 MR MANNING: Arguments, yes.
24 MR SHELDON: I found two that are mentioned in the
25 documents. There is one in your diary on New Year's Eve
256
1 where Marie ran out into the street in her nightdress
2 and you had to go to the bus stop to persuade her to
3 come back, do you remember that?
4 MR MANNING: Vaguely, yes.
5 MR SHELDON: And also in your interview with the police you
6 explained the fact that there was no toilet seat in the
7 bathroom on the fact that during an argument Marie had
8 broken it because she had gone in and smashed up some
9 things in the bathroom. Do you recall that?
10 MR MANNING: I do, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Would you say that she had a fairly strong
12 temper?
13 MR MANNING: I would, yes.
14 MR SHELDON: Did you ever see her lose her temper with
15 anybody from social services or anybody at the
16 hospitals?
17 MR MANNING: By losing it you mean like what, going out to
18 hit someone or swearing at them, being abusive?
19 MR SHELDON: Any of those, yes.
20 MR MANNING: I never -- I cannot recall hearing her swearing
21 at anyone or losing her temper in that way, no.
22 MR SHELDON: Did she ever shout at any of those people
23 aggressively?
24 MR MANNING: She could sort of -- she would sort of talk and
25 her voice would sort of seem raised but maybe that is
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1 also the language barrier as well, yes.
2 MR SHELDON: Was there any sense in which she behaved
3 differently around those sort of people, social workers,
4 doctors and nurses, than she did around people she knew
5 better, like you or her other friends?
6 MR MANNING: I would not say differently because you are
7 implying that like maybe she is in one sense giving the
8 impression of being one person around us and someone
9 else around them. I would not say differently, no, she
10 was just Maria.
11 MR SHELDON: You saw her give her evidence at the trial and
12 we heard her give her evidence to us on Tuesday, and it
13 would seem that she is capable of giving her views very
14 forcefully at times and sometimes getting a bit carried
15 away. Now, what I want to understand is whether or not
16 she would behave like that around social workers,
17 medical staff, the sort of people with which we are
18 concerned. Did they see that side of her character?
19 MR MANNING: She got her point across, yes.
20 MR SHELDON: What do you mean by that?
21 MR MANNING: What do I mean by she got her point across?
22 She got her opinion across, how she felt and how she saw
23 the situation. Is that clear?
24 MR SHELDON: Well not really.
25 MR MANNING: Can I see if I have got it right? Are you
258
1 asking if she was giving the impression of being like
2 person A in one environment and then person B in another
3 environment, say the authorities being person B?
4 MR SHELDON: Yes.
5 MR MANNING: And whether person A and person B were two
6 different people; in the case of being person B she was
7 like putting on an act, or person A she was her natural
8 self; is that what you are trying to ask?
9 MR SHELDON: That is exactly what I am trying to ask, you
10 put it much better than me.
11 MR MANNING: Well, times I seen her maybe with those people,
12 I mean you have to realise the language barrier. She
13 spoke good English but then this sense of deep
14 understanding, you have to listen to people as well, so
15 in a sense you are trying to get your opinion across and
16 not listening to everyone else, that makes a bit more
17 misunderstanding on your behalf. She was -- to me she
18 was just being Marie, you know, she -- whatever she
19 wanted to achieve, I do not know what she wanted to
20 achieve but the way that things were going on she would
21 get her opinion across and just lean towards that. Does
22 that make sense?
23 MR SHELDON: It does and thank you for your help.
24 MR MANNING: Sorry I cannot be more specific than that but
25 you know, going across the lines of question.
259
1 MR SHELDON: I realise it is a difficult question to answer
2 but what I really want to understand is was she ever
3 aggressive towards those people?
4 MR MANNING: Going back to the definition of aggression she
5 was not violent to those people in the sense of --
6 MR SHELDON: Not physically but verbally, did she ever get
7 angry and shout at them?
8 MR MANNING: Not at the top of her voice, she would not like
9 stand up and just shout and be abusive to them verbally,
10 no, but she has got a strong character as you know
11 already, she would put her opinion across. In that
12 context she would be along those lines.
13 MR SHELDON: What about her appearance? We have heard
14 evidence that Marie was always well presented, well
15 dressed, her hair always done, smartly, is that right?
16 MR MANNING: I would say that is a fair opinion, yes.
17 MR SHELDON: And was it the case that she would always make
18 sure she was looking smart and well turned out before
19 she went out? Was that the same when she knew people
20 were coming to visit? Again, would she make an effort
21 to make sure she looked the part?
22 MR MANNING: It was not a case of making an effort. She
23 just done it naturally, you see my point. When she was
24 going out she made the effort to look presentable. So
25 it was not a case of like, what I know, like, for
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1 example someone has come round today so I will specially
2 make the effort. That is just the way she was. She knew
3 if she was going out or someone was coming round she
4 would prepare herself. Does that make sense?
5 MR SHELDON: It does, thank you. Presumably you did not
6 want Marie and Victoria to be living with you
7 indefinitely in that studio flat, did you?
8 MR MANNING: It was small for us all, yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Yes. You were as anxious --
10 MR MANNING: Before anything gets asked out of context,
11 I will just say when I first met her and the situation
12 was explained, my understanding was that Marie was going
13 to send Victoria back home to the Ivory Coast, so as
14 things deteriorated and got worse, getting out of hand,
15 you know, the state to what they went, my understanding,
16 it was always Marie's intention, that is what she said.
17 The way things were going along it was obvious it was
18 not her intention. I do not know because it did not
19 happen along those lines. Yes?
20 MR SHELDON: Yes, I understand. But you presumably were as
21 anxious as anybody for their housing application to
22 succeed because you wanted them to find a place of their
23 own as well?
24 MR MANNING: That is what they wanted, yes, it was what
25 Marie wanted, yes.
261
1 MR SHELDON: Because the way you put it at the criminal
2 trial, and it may be that it is not a phrase you would
3 want to use now, but the way you put it at the criminal
4 trial was that after a while with Marie and Victoria
5 living in that little flat it was becoming a "hell hole"
6 is the way you put it. It was not very pleasant, all
7 three of you living there together, was it?
8 MR MANNING: I said that at very much later date. As you
9 know things were pretty bad then.
10 MR SHELDON: Yes. Now, there is one reference in your diary
11 for the 12th July that was put to you at the criminal
12 trial where you say that "Anna was getting worse.
13 Tonight she was so bad I could get no sleep so I called
14 in sick at work." What did you mean by "getting worse"?
15 Can you remember what she was doing?
16 MR MANNING: Offhand on that day I cannot offhand, sorry.
17 MR SHELDON: I see. I think it is the next day, 13th July,
18 that you went to look at a couple of flats that perhaps
19 Marie and Victoria could have lived in. It may be that
20 you do not remember the exact date but do you remember
21 going to look at flats with them?
22 MR MANNING: We went together, that is right, yes.
23 MR SHELDON: You said in the trial that one of those flats
24 was pretty nice. Is that your recollection?
25 MR MANNING: I may have said it but I cannot remember --
262
1 I think it was two accommodations but I cannot remember
2 what they were much like.
3 MR SHELDON: Why did they not move into either of them?
4 MR MANNING: Offhand I cannot say the exact reason but
5 I think money would have come into it. It cost quite
6 a bit to pay the rent for the accommodation, so money
7 would have been a factor as well.
8 MR SHELDON: You also said at the trial, and you mentioned
9 it just now to us, that your understanding was that the
10 long-term plan was for Marie to send Victoria back to
11 the Ivory Coast. Is that right?
12 MR MANNING: Yes, when I first met her, yes.
13 MR SHELDON: So Victoria would have gone back and Marie
14 would have stayed in England, was that the plan as you
15 understood it?
16 MR MANNING: That was my understanding, that was how things
17 were hoped to work out, yes.
18 MR SHELDON: Why did not she do that, do you know?
19 MR MANNING: I do not know.
20 MR SHELDON: Did you discuss it with her?
21 MR MANNING: In terms of understanding, like I said that was
22 my understanding of the situation. In terms of, well,
23 I could not say, "Why don't we do this? You have got to
24 do this", you know, Marie was a person who handled her
25 own matters in her own way. So eventually the decision
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1 went to if it was to be done it would be up to Marie.
2 I just basically left it at that. It was not a case
3 like I did not care and I was pushing them away, it was
4 just a sense that Marie would decide what she was going
5 to do and her business was her own matter so -- and she
6 is a lady to decide when she is going to do whatever she
7 wanted to do.
8 MR SHELDON: Sure, but she is living with you and Victoria
9 is living with you and it is a difficult situation.
10 Marie has been saying since July that the plan is for
11 Victoria to go home to the Ivory Coast. By the time we
12 get to December, January, February were you not asking,
13 "Well when is she going back to the Ivory Coast"?
14 MR MANNING: Fair enough, yes, fair enough, I just left it
15 in Marie's hands, I did.
16 MR SHELDON: Did you ever suggest to her that that is what
17 she should do, she should get on with it and get
18 Victoria sent home?
19 MR MANNING: I knew that was her intention, I just did not
20 push her on the matter.
21 MR SHELDON: I see. Did you ever consider or discuss with
22 Marie the possibility of social services taking Victoria
23 into care?
24 MR MANNING: Very indirectly. I think the matter was --
25 I think it was brought up before by the social worker,
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1 Lisa, but in terms of me saying, "Why don't we do this",
2 I did not raise the matter myself, no.
3 MR SHELDON: Mr Manning I am reminded of one thing arising
4 out of one of the questions that I asked you earlier on.
5 MR MANNING: Okay.
6 MR SHELDON: In fact, one of the things that you said at the
7 trial was not quite as I put it to you. It was when you
8 described the flat as a "hell hole" you were describing
9 how Victoria had put it rather than how you would put it
10 yourself. It was her that said the flat is becoming
11 like a hell hole. Do you remember her saying that?
12 MR MANNING: I think you will have to refer to that
13 particular section again. I do not remember Victoria
14 coming out and saying "this is a hell hole", no.
15 MR SHELDON: Let me read to you your diary entry for
16 10th July as it was put to you in the trial, and you see
17 if you recall it.
18 MR MANNING: Okay.
19 MR SHELDON: You said:
20 "Got a call from Marie first thing in the morning.
21 Went to see her at her hotel in Finsbury Park. She
22 appeared to be better today after yesterday. Her and
23 Anna came back home with me. However, after one day,
24 after yesterday's events, Anna has taken a strong
25 dislike to me and keeps telling me in no uncertain terms
265
1 267 is becoming a hell hole."
2 Do you remember Victoria saying anything along those
3 lines to you?
4 MR MANNING: No. I think -- are you referring to the
5 section in the text or are you looking at in the diary
6 itself?
7 MR SHELDON: This section of the diary was put to you during
8 the trial and I am just reading from the trial
9 transcript exactly what was put to you. I am wondering
10 if you remember that and why Victoria thought it was
11 becoming a hell hole, if you can remember.
12 MR MANNING: I think I remember it vaguely but in the
13 context of it being written down it was not like
14 a continuous sentence, it was broken up. So it was like
15 saying to me in uncertain terms "epileps dot dot dot"
16 and that is just my own statement saying it is like
17 a hell hole. So it was not a case of Victoria saying it
18 was like a hell hole. Does that make sense?
19 MR SHELDON: It does, thank you. You mention there in that
20 quote that I just put to you that Victoria had taken
21 a strong dislike to you. Is that right?
22 MR MANNING: That was just the impression at that time.
23 MR SHELDON: The reason I ask is that when Marie came to
24 give evidence on Tuesday before us, she said that you
25 and Victoria hated each other. Now, is that fair?
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1 MR MANNING: She said that in her evidence on Tuesday?
2 MR SHELDON: Yes, to us.
3 MR MANNING: Hated in the sense -- what context did she mean
4 hated? You saw her.
5 MR SHELDON: I do not know, as you can imagine it is not
6 always easy to tell. But she said that there was one
7 occasion near Christmas 1999 when you actually asked
8 Victoria why she hated you, and do you remember ever
9 asking her that?
10 MR MANNING: In December 1999 I cannot remember the exact
11 specific event, no.
12 MR SHELDON: Well, Marie also says that Victoria would not
13 want to sit down near you or talk to you, that she would
14 ignore you. Is that right?
15 MR MANNING: There was a pretty bad atmosphere, yes, that is
16 a fair enough assessment.
17 MR SHELDON: Would she behave like that towards you when
18 other people were around as well?
19 MR MANNING: In all fairness yes. I am just trying to
20 remember the specific event but I would say it is a fair
21 assessment to make, yes.
22 MR SHELDON: You will understand why I am asking you this
23 because the --
24 MR MANNING: I am sorry to cut in. The reason why, I am
25 hearing it for the first time, that is all. In the
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1 context of what Marie said and what has actually
2 happened there has been a discrepancy. Is she telling
3 the truth for a change?
4 MR SHELDON: I understand that.
5 MR MANNING: All those. She did not say those words during
6 the trial. That is why it just seems a bit strange to
7 me hearing them for the first time now.
8 MR SHELDON: Yes of course. The reason I am asking you
9 though is the impression that Marie got, and it seems it
10 is one that you agree with, is that Victoria did not
11 like you very much and that she was not afraid to show
12 that by her behaviour. What I am wondering is whether
13 she would behave like that around you when other people
14 were around, for example when Lisa Arthurworrey came to
15 your flat. Would it have been obvious to people that
16 you and Victoria did not get on very well?
17 MR MANNING: As you appreciate, things got gradually worse
18 as time went on, so the times when Lisa came to visit
19 in August and October the situation was not at as bad
20 a stage as it was to eventually get to. So the
21 impression given when Lisa visited that Victoria was
22 playing quietly with her toys and she was well behaved,
23 that was the case. I would say on that occasion she
24 would not come across as in some, you know, we just did
25 not get on, yes.
268
1 MR SHELDON: So during the course of those visits at least
2 there would have been nothing obvious about Victoria's
3 behaviour which would have suggested to
4 Lisa Arthurworrey that you two did not get on?
5 MR MANNING: No, I cannot remember anything specifically
6 being said or done, no.
7 MR SHELDON: Or that she was frightened of you?
8 MR MANNING: No, nothing along those lines.
9 MR SHELDON: If we can just turn now, Mr Manning, please, to
10 visits you made to social services' offices and we will
11 deal with this briefly. From my reading of the evidence
12 you gave at the trial, there would seem to be at least
13 three visits you made to social services on Marie's
14 behalf or to help Marie out. The first one was a visit
15 to Acton Town Hall on 14th June, so just after you met.
16 The second was to Haringey Social Services on 19th July
17 and the third was a visit to Harlesden on 19th October.
18 Do you recall any of those events or any of those
19 visits?
20 MR MANNING: I recollect that Acton one. The second one to
21 Haringey, was that when the application was made?
22 MR SHELDON: That is right, the housing application, that is
23 on 19th July.
24 MR MANNING: What date was the last one in October, 19th?
25 MR SHELDON: The 19th, it was a visit to Harlesden.
269
1 MR MANNING: Yes, I think I vaguely remember that one.
2 MR SHELDON: Shall we deal with them in order in that case
3 and take the Acton one first of all? What was the
4 purpose of you going to Acton Town Hall in June 1999?
5 MR MANNING: That reason, it is probably reference to
6 Nicoll Road where we was living but I cannot remember
7 the exact context of her complaint that she made.
8 MR SHELDON: Do you remember for example who you spoke to or
9 what was said?
10 MR MANNING: I think when we got there that was like
11 a reception area and she called for a specific person
12 and when she spoke to that lady I was not present so
13 I do not know what was said.
14 MR SHELDON: Did you speak to anybody there on her behalf?
15 MR MANNING: Personally no, I just sat and waited until they
16 had finished.
17 MR SHELDON: Let us turn to the visit to Haringey on
18 19th July which was when the housing registration form
19 would seem to have been completed or handed in. Do you
20 remember going on that occasion?
21 MR MANNING: Vaguely, yes.
22 MR SHELDON: Again, can you remember who was spoken to or
23 what was said?
24 MR MANNING: Well, I think we just went into the basic
25 reception area and enquired about filling out a housing
270
1 application form. I think we got as far as the
2 reception area, and it was probably handed in there and
3 then.
4 MR SHELDON: You do not remember any specific conversations
5 or who you spoke to?
6 MR MANNING: Just basically asking for the form. I cannot
7 remember problems actually filling it in and just
8 handing it in. Apart from that, nothing specific, no.
9 MR SHELDON: There is a reference in your evidence at the
10 trial to a visit to Harlesden on 19th October. Do you
11 recall that one?
12 MR MANNING: I remember making one visit. There is a couple
13 of offices in Harlesden. I remember one we made down at
14 Harlesden and it was just regarding -- I cannot remember
15 if it was specifically about a housing application, I do
16 not think so. I cannot remember what the exact context
17 of the visit was. In Harlesden there is a couple of
18 offices. There is one where you make applications --
19 not applications, but enquire about vacancies for flats
20 and then there is actual offices where council
21 applications are handed in.
22 MR SHELDON: I see. Of course there was one further visit
23 which was in relation to the allegations Victoria made
24 against you at the beginning of November 1999, and we
25 will come on to deal with that in a moment, but are
271
1 there any other visits to social services that you can
2 recall that I have missed out?
3 MR MANNING: Offhand there is no other ones I can recall.
4 I mean, there was, like you mention Acton, there was
5 a couple of times I went down but like I said it was
6 a sense that she called to see a specific person and
7 then she spoke to that person and I just sat in the
8 reception area until she finished her visit.
9 I remember there was another two occasions other
10 than the one that you have mentioned there.
11 MR SHELDON: I see, thank you. Can we turn now to
12 Victoria's dealings or Victoria's admission to hospital
13 on the two occasions she went and firstly the Central
14 Middlesex Hospital. Now, were you aware that Victoria
15 was taken to hospital by Avril Cameron shortly after her
16 and Marie moved in with you in July?
17 MR MANNING: I was aware of this particular visit in the
18 Central Middlesex, yes.
19 MR SHELDON: And were you aware that for at least a short
20 time social services and the police had become involved?
21 MR MANNING: Since they had become involved, yes, Marie told
22 me all this on the phone, so I was aware of that, yes.
23 MR SHELDON: Were you ever spoken to by either the police or
24 social services or anyone from the hospital about
25 Victoria's condition when she went to Central Middlesex?
272
1 MR MANNING: No, I was not at all, no.
2 MR SHELDON: Were you aware of what the concerns were about
3 Victoria in relation to that hospital admission?
4 MR MANNING: Only from what Marie had told me.
5 MR SHELDON: What did Marie tell you about it?
6 MR MANNING: Just basically in the context of -- I cannot
7 remember what happened but I know she had taken her to
8 the child minder in Harlesden to spend the night --
9 shall I mention the name or are they entitled to remain
10 anonymous?
11 MR SHELDON: You can mention the name. We have heard
12 evidence from her already.
13 MR MANNING: All right, then she had taken her to the
14 childminder, she had stayed in Harlesden, and she had
15 spent the night there and then the next day Marie went
16 to pick her up, the childminder said her daughter had
17 taken Victoria to the hospital and then Marie went
18 afterwards on to the hospital to collect Victoria back.
19 MR SHELDON: How did Marie feel about all that?
20 MR MANNING: She was very angry, very annoyed.
21 MR SHELDON: Do you remember Victoria having any visible
22 injuries on her at that point?
23 MR MANNING: Injuries-wise, nothing I noticed, no.
24 MR SHELDON: And this is about a week after she moved in
25 with you, there was nothing that you became aware of?
273
1 MR MANNING: Not that I noticed, no.
2 MR SHELDON: Do you remember her scratching excessively
3 around this time?
4 MR MANNING: Just a week after they moved in?
5 MR SHELDON: Yes.
6 MR MANNING: I noticed she had scratched but I did not
7 notice anything excessive like continuous scratching
8 like that all the time. I just noticed the occasional
9 scratch.
10 MR SHELDON: Did you have any sort of skin complaint or
11 itching around that time?
12 MR MANNING: I did not personally, no.
13 MR SHELDON: You did not have scabies for example?
14 MR MANNING: I did not, no.
15 MR SHELDON: Were you aware of Victoria having been beaten
16 by anybody prior to her going into hospital on that
17 occasion with Mrs Cameron?
18 MR MANNING: When she was taken to Central Middlesex?
19 MR SHELDON: Yes.
20 MR MANNING: I had seen her being hit, yes, but nothing
21 excessive.
22 MR SHELDON: Seen her being hit by who?
23 MR MANNING: I had seen her being hit by Marie and I cannot
24 remember if I had done it, if I was hitting her myself
25 at that time.
274
1 MR SHELDON: Can you remember if any of those blows had left
2 a mark on her?
3 MR MANNING: Like I said, I did not notice any marks,
4 I cannot say if I noticed anything specific, no.
5 MR SHELDON: Let us turn now to the second occasion Victoria
6 went into hospital when she went to the North Middlesex.
7 Do you remember going to visit her at the North
8 Middlesex Hospital after she had been admitted with the
9 burns to her head?
10 MR MANNING: Afterwards, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: You said at your trial that the best of your
12 recollection was that you went on about five occasions.
13 Would that be right?
14 MR MANNING: Thereabouts, yes, I cannot remember
15 specifically but thereabouts.
16 MR SHELDON: Again, I am quoting from the trial evidence
17 that you gave. You said that you thought that "Victoria
18 was intimidated by my presence". What did you mean by
19 that?
20 MR MANNING: I do not recall a particular instance but
21 I think I will probably go with the context of what you
22 said earlier, in the sense Marie said allegedly -- what
23 Marie said on Tuesday about maybe a sense of an
24 atmosphere between Victoria and myself, the impression
25 was I said it was a fair reflection, specifically when
275
1 she was in hospital, maybe on the occasion I visited
2 her, maybe a sense that the child was wary of my
3 presence.
4 MR SHELDON: She did not want to have very much to do with
5 you, would that be fair?
6 MR MANNING: I remember it was like said during the trial by
7 hospital staff as well, they maybe sensed that she was
8 afraid of me, so I reckon that was in the context of
9 those previous statements.
10 MR SHELDON: Did she behave as if she was afraid of you?
11 MR MANNING: I feel she did keep her distance from me, yes.
12 MR SHELDON: When Marie came to give evidence to us on
13 Tuesday, she said that whenever she arrived at the
14 hospital to visit Victoria, Victoria would push away
15 whoever she was talking to and run up and greet Marie
16 enthusiastically and that Victoria would cry when it was
17 time for Marie to go. Do you remember her acting like
18 that?
19 MR MANNING: Yes, she did. Yes, she was pleased to see --
20 well the times when I was there with Marie, she was
21 pleased to see her when we came to visit.
22 MR SHELDON: And sad when she went?
23 MR MANNING: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: Would Victoria ever stand to attention, you
25 know like a soldier, in front of Marie when Marie was
276
1 talking to her?
2 MR MANNING: She would listen carefully, yes. It would seem
3 from a distance, looking at it, that it was maybe like
4 a soldier, but this is just a reflection of what other
5 people have said I think.
6 MR SHELDON: Because as you probably remember from the
7 trial, some of the staff at the hospital remember an
8 incident where Victoria was standing to attention in
9 front of Marie when Marie was sitting down and they
10 said, and they put it in the notes, that it seemed like
11 a master/servant relationship. Do you know what they
12 mean by that?
13 MR MANNING: I understand the gist of that comment, yes.
14 MR SHELDON: Would it be different from your experience to
15 the way most children stand in front of their parents
16 and listen to them when they are talking to them?
17 MR MANNING: It would just, my opinion it would just seem
18 that Victoria was very obedient towards Marie and would
19 listen to what she said and show great respect in that
20 way.
21 MR SHELDON: Did Marie insist that Victoria behaved in
22 a certain way around her and showed her great respect?
23 MR MANNING: By "insist" it seems like you are saying that
24 she has got to say Victoria has to act this way. To me
25 Victoria just did it naturally. Do you see my point?
277
1 It is not a case like you might say Marie would say
2 before that "you have to do this, you have to behave
3 this way when we are outside"; Victoria just acted that
4 way naturally in front of Marie. Does that make sense?
5 MR SHELDON: It does. Did you think that there was anything
6 unnatural about that though? Do you think it was
7 inappropriate for her to act that way around her mother
8 or her aunt?
9 MR MANNING: I did not read too much into it. It is just
10 the way that Victoria was in front of Marie, she showed
11 obedience and respect towards her in that way.
12 MR SHELDON: From your experience is that typical amongst
13 children in Afro-Caribbean families to behave that way
14 in front of their parents?
15 MR MANNING: Well, it would not be just Afro-Caribbean, it
16 could go to any type of background. You could have
17 a child that is brought up in with an authoritarian
18 father, maybe in the military, and they expect their
19 child to behave that way. So I would not say it is
20 specific to one particular culture. I think that would
21 be unfair.
22 MR SHELDON: You said at the trial that Marie would hit
23 Victoria on an almost daily basis. Is that right?
24 MR MANNING: That is what I said, yes.
25 MR SHELDON: Now, did that make Victoria frightened of
278
1 Marie?
2 MR MANNING: Looking at it it probably did, yes.
3 MR SHELDON: Do you think that may have affected the way in
4 which Victoria behaved around Marie?
5 MR MANNING: It did have an effect on her, yes.
6 MR SHELDON: And what effect would it have had?
7 MR MANNING: In the sense that as she appeared obedient and
8 respectful towards Marie. It would have had that
9 long-term effect.
10 MR SHELDON: Did any of the hospital staff whilst Victoria
11 was in the North Middlesex talk to you about Victoria's
12 behaviour whilst she was around you? Did they say,
13 "This little girl does not seem to like you very much",
14 or anything to that effect?
15 MR MANNING: I cannot remember specifically. I would not
16 say "yes" or "no" but I cannot remember specific
17 occasions.
18 MR SHELDON: Do you recall ever hearing them talk to Marie
19 about Victoria's behaviour whilst you were around?
20 MR MANNING: I remember them like talking about, they would
21 talk about she had like a big appetite and they said she
22 had had lots of bowls of cereal in the morning, and
23 I think there was also like mention about her wetting
24 the bed and like changing the sheets at night. Apart
25 from that, they said, you know, she was happy playing
279
1 and got on well with everybody else in the ward as well.
2 She was a well behaved child.
3 MR SHELDON: But do you recall any of the hospital staff
4 either speaking to you or Marie to the effect that
5 Victoria seemed to behave in a very respectful,
6 frightened, timid way around either of you?
7 MR MANNING: Not along those lines saying that she seemed
8 timid, no, I cannot remember a specific occasion --
9 MR SHELDON: Sorry, go on.
10 MR MANNING: That was raised in the trial but at that
11 particular time I cannot remember a specific occasion
12 saying that "she seems to be frightened of you".
13 MR SHELDON: Did any of the hospital staff ever ask you how
14 Victoria came by the marks that she had on her body?
15 MR MANNING: Me personally, no, I cannot recall an occasion.
16 MR SHELDON: Did they ask you personally how she came to be
17 scalded on her head?
18 MR MANNING: The burns incident I was not present at, so the
19 only account of that happening is Marie's recollection
20 of events, so I could not like add to that or contradict
21 it.
22 MR SHELDON: Whether or not you would have been able to help
23 them if they had asked for your help is a separate
24 matter. What I want to know is whether they ever asked
25 for your help as to how she came by those injuries.
280
1 MR MANNING: As I was not present at the event, you know,
2 I do not know specifically what happened.
3 MR SHELDON: But they would not have known that unless they
4 asked you, would they? Did they ever ask you?
5 MR MANNING: Specifically when the event happened Marie took
6 Anna in and explained what happened. She did not say
7 someone else was present because I was not present so
8 I do not know if they maybe got the impression that
9 I was there. I was not asked specifically about how
10 that happened. That is all there is to it.
11 MR SHELDON: Did you ever get the impression during the
12 course of any of your visits to the North Middlesex
13 Hospital that the staff there were concerned about the
14 way Victoria might be being treated at home?
15 MR MANNING: Treated in the sense of her behaviour at the
16 hospital and how that may affect her home life?
17 MR SHELDON: No, did you ever get the impression from any of
18 the staff at the hospital that they thought or were
19 worried that Victoria might be being abused at home? Do
20 you see what I mean?
21 MR MANNING: I understand your question, yes. Nothing was
22 asked of me specifically so I could not say whether
23 I was asked this context and I gave this answer.
24 Nothing was asked of me personally.
25 MR SHELDON: Did you hear them having any conversation with
281
1 Marie that may have suggested they were worried about
2 that?
3 MR MANNING: No, I cannot recall anything offhand.
4 MR SHELDON: Did you ever bring anything for Victoria when
5 you went to visit her, any toys, sweets, games, anything
6 like that?
7 MR MANNING: No.
8 MR SHELDON: Did Marie ever bring her anything that you are
9 aware of?
10 MR MANNING: To my knowledge, I cannot remember anything,
11 no.
12 MR SHELDON: Was that ever mentioned by the medical staff in
13 your presence, namely why you had not brought anything
14 for this child?
15 MR MANNING: They did mention about our bringing a change of
16 clothing and toys, sweets, and like Marie saying she
17 will remember next time when she comes to visit, but
18 I cannot remember.
19 MR SHELDON: Was that one of the nurses or one of the
20 doctors?
21 MR MANNING: It could have been either. It was mentioned
22 that you are allowed to bring sweets and toys and that
23 was mentioned, yes, so I remember, but to my
24 recollection nothing was ever brought.
25 MR SHELDON: Why did you go and visit her?
282
1 MR MANNING: To see how Victoria was getting on in the
2 hospital and how she was getting on.
3 MR SHELDON: You were concerned about her despite the fact
4 that you two did not get on very well?
5 MR MANNING: At that stage things were not as bad as they
6 were to become.
7 MR SHELDON: I see.
8 MR MANNING: It was just a case to see how she was getting
9 on and how she was coping at hospital.
10 MR SHELDON: Would you talk to her when you were at the
11 hospital and ask her how she was getting on?
12 MR MANNING: At the time, like I said, there was that sense
13 of an atmosphere between us, so just general
14 conversation, nothing specifically. Marie done most of
15 the talking, I just sat down and it carried on that way.
16 MR SHELDON: I see. Let us turn now, if we can, to the
17 allegations that Victoria made against you in November
18 1999. Do you recall that she made an allegation of
19 sexual abuse to social services on the 1st November?
20 Now, we will come on to that instance in detail in
21 a moment, but as I understand it that was not the first
22 time she had been making that sort of allegation against
23 you, was it?
24 MR MANNING: That allegation, no, it was not the first, it
25 was obviously that night that it was reported.
283
1 MR SHELDON: Can you remember when she started accusing you
2 of that sort of thing?
3 MR MANNING: The allegation -- probably went back to about
4 July, late July.
5 MR SHELDON: I see, because there was an instance, was there
6 not, when Marie went to the hospital, the North
7 Middlesex, with a Nigerian cab driver and during the
8 course of that visit Victoria made some allegations and
9 Marie phoned you up to talk about it, is that right? Do
10 you remember that?
11 MR MANNING: Is this when Victoria was at hospital or before
12 she got admitted to hospital?
13 MR SHELDON: It was when she was at hospital as I understand
14 it from the evidence you gave at the trial, it was when
15 she was at hospital, Marie went to visit her with
16 a Nigerian friend, I think a cab driver, and then Marie
17 phoned you up on her mobile to say Victoria has been
18 making these allegations about you. Do you recall that
19 instance?
20 MR MANNING: I do, yes.
21 MR SHELDON: What was the outcome of that?
22 MR MANNING: The outcome of that occasion, the allegations
23 were said in front of the cab driver and he wanted to
24 say -- report it there and then to the doctors and
25 nurses, and Marie was in a situation where she knew the
284
1 allegations were not true but then she was able to say
2 to him that Victoria was lying and he believed she would
3 deal with the matter, so the matter was left there.
4 MR SHELDON: I see. So Marie came to the conclusion that
5 Victoria was not telling the truth about that?
6 MR MANNING: Well, like you said, the allegations were said
7 in front of the cabbie while Victoria was at the
8 hospital and the allegations went back just before she
9 was admitted to the hospital, yes.
10 MR SHELDON: I see.
11 MR MANNING: So that was not the first occasion Marie had
12 heard the allegations.
13 MR SHELDON: There was also an instance that you mentioned
14 at the trial in September 1999 that involved the
15 Kimbidimas when the allegation was made to them. Do you
16 remember that?
17 MR MANNING: Offhand I do not remember much. I think I said
18 in the statement I do not remember telling anyone they
19 are going over there, but I cannot remember the specific
20 occasion, but I think they were aware of it.
21 MR SHELDON: Mr Kimbidima came to give evidence to us and he
22 says he remembered a time when Victoria knelt down in
23 front of you and apologised for not telling the truth
24 about those allegations. Do you remember that
25 happening?
285
1 MR MANNING: In a sense the allegation was said in his
2 presence, yes.
3 MR SHELDON: And so -- sorry, go on.
4 MR MANNING: I am saying I think in the statement I did not
5 raise that matter but I remember it. That is something
6 I have omitted from the statement that I have given to
7 yourselves, but I remember it occurring.
8 MR SHELDON: But the outcome again as far as you remember
9 was that Marie decided again that Victoria was not
10 telling the truth, is that right?
11 MR MANNING: That is right, yes.
12 MR SHELDON: Why do you think Victoria made those
13 allegations?
14 MR MANNING: Then or now? I mean now it is all different.
15 MR SHELDON: Now you have had a chance to think about it.
16 MR MANNING: I have had more than a chance to think about
17 it. At the time I mean within myself I know they are
18 very serious allegations and I mean myself they are not
19 true as well and for a child to come and say that to me,
20 I could not make sense of why she is making those
21 allegations. When you look back on it now you know
22 there is only one reason why she is making it and that
23 is she has been coached to say it.
24 MR SHELDON: She had been coached to say it by who?
25 MR MANNING: It just seems that way to me, yes.
286
1 MR SHELDON: Who do you think coached her to say it?
2 MR MANNING: Marie, wasn't it?
3 MR SHELDON: Let us come on to the 1st November allegation.
4 Now, this was the only time I think that Marie went to
5 the authorities about this matter, is that right?
6 MR MANNING: It was the first time she went to report it to
7 them and the next day she went back with Victoria to
8 retract the allegation.
9 MR SHELDON: Because previously when Victoria had made these
10 allegations it had been resolved between you without
11 going to the authorities, had it not?
12 MR MANNING: There is no substance to the allegations, they
13 are not true at all, so there was no way they could take
14 it further.
15 MR SHELDON: Absolutely. Do you say that the 1st November
16 allegations were true or not?
17 MR MANNING: None of the allegations were true.
18 MR SHELDON: No, but on 1st --
19 MR MANNING: Let me put it into context. A certain
20 allegation has been made by Victoria in my presence,
21 that dates back to July, okay, and it was just a sense
22 of the allegations were not true, at no time were they
23 true at all, but that incident has been brought up again
24 and again, especially the times when there were
25 arguments between Marie and myself, she was saying, "You
287
1 did do those things" in the heat of the argument. It is
2 something that has been constantly brought up. It is
3 not a case of saying that you done it then, you done it
4 in August and you done it in September. There was
5 always a reference to an allegation dated back to that
6 occasion back in July. That is what kept coming back up
7 again, and that was November 1st when they were reported
8 first of all for the first time to social services.
9 MR SHELDON: Thank you for that, that is very helpful. That
10 is was what I was getting at because these allegations
11 have been coming up time and time again since July.
12 MR MANNING: It is not necessarily that it happened on this
13 occasion, it is just all going back to one case where
14 they were alleging it happened and it did not happen at
15 all. It is just that one incident.
16 MR SHELDON: Despite the fact that these allegations have
17 been coming up time and again, it was not until the
18 1st November that Marie ever went to the authorities
19 about it. That is right, is it not?
20 MR MANNING: That is right, yes, and that was done in the
21 heat of an argument as well.
22 MR SHELDON: Why do you think she went to the authorities on
23 that occasion when she had never gone to the authorities
24 before?
25 MR MANNING: On that occasion when she went we had a bit of
288
1 an argument as well, so it is just a case in the evening
2 she said she was going to tell them this and that and
3 she started causing rows and that is when she called
4 Lisa, to make the allegations to her on the phone.
5 MR SHELDON: I see. So did you think it was just because
6 she was particularly angry with you on that occasion
7 that she decided to take the matter further?
8 MR MANNING: She did take it further, yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Yes I know she did, I am just trying to
10 understand why you think she did it on that occasion
11 when she had not done it before.
12 MR MANNING: It just seemed to me on that occasion that it
13 was just a case that her temper went that extreme,
14 further than before, and that is when she ended up
15 making the phone call to Lisa.
16 MR SHELDON: Now, the outcome of that phone call was that
17 Marie and Victoria were to go to Lisa's offices to talk
18 to her about it, is that right?
19 MR MANNING: That is right, yes.
20 MR SHELDON: And you went along with them to Haringey Social
21 Services the next day, the Monday morning, is that
22 right?
23 MR MANNING: The allegations were made, everything was that
24 Monday morning 1st November, and Lisa said that Marie
25 and Victoria to come to the office to make the
289
1 allegation in her presence and Marie then told me to
2 come along as well, so all three of us come along. We
3 went into a little room with Lisa and another official
4 was there, social services, and I think that is where
5 Victoria made the allegation in their presence, and then
6 Lisa came out and said I should not be present and that
7 I should go home, and that is when I went back home.
8 MR SHELDON: So it was after Victoria made the allegations
9 to Lisa that Lisa came out and told you that it was
10 appropriate for you to leave?
11 MR MANNING: I do not think I should have been present in
12 the first place but Marie told me I should come along as
13 well, but I asked and Lisa told me to my face that
14 I should not be present.
15 MR SHELDON: Did she say anything else to you?
16 MR MANNING: What, when I left? I mean my understanding
17 afterwards because of the nature of the allegations and
18 normal procedure was that I should not have any contact
19 with Victoria at all. That was just told to me by Maria
20 afterwards. I cannot remember if Lisa told me that at
21 the time but that is what I was told afterwards anyway.
22 MR SHELDON: Did Lisa tell you anything at the time as to
23 how social services were going to deal with the matter
24 from then on?
25 MR MANNING: I cannot remember if it was Lisa or Marie told
290
1 me but basic procedure was because of the nature of the
2 allegations I would be interviewed by the police and
3 that was to be on the following Friday. So I cannot
4 remember if Lisa told that to me or Marie afterwards,
5 but it was my understanding, I was supposed to be
6 interviewed by the police on the following Friday about
7 the allegations.
8 MR SHELDON: Do you remember where you got that impression
9 from, who told you that you were going to be interviewed
10 by the police on the following Friday?
11 MR MANNING: Yes, I can say I would have thought -- I cannot
12 remember if it was from Lisa or Marie but that is what
13 I thought was going to happen next.
14 MR SHELDON: Is that why you wrote in your diary for
15 5th November that it was going to be judgment day with
16 Haringey?
17 MR MANNING: Well, expecting that to happen but it did not
18 happen.
19 MR SHELDON: Expecting, yes.
20 MR MANNING: So it did not happen at all.
21 MR SHELDON: It looks, it is not entirely clear but it looks
22 to be the case from the trial transcript that you got
23 a call from social services in the morning of that
24 5th November saying that they would call you back later.
25 Do you remember that?
291
1 MR MANNING: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: And what were you told during the course of
3 that phone call?
4 MR MANNING: To my memory that would be it, just expecting
5 them to call back, call when they came round to collect
6 us to go in for questioning, so I was told I would be
7 brought in for questioning, whatever the procedure was,
8 and that is what I spent the rest of the day waiting for
9 that to happen.
10 MR SHELDON: No one ever called you back?
11 MR MANNING: No one ever called back.
12 MR SHELDON: Can you remember who it was that called you in
13 the morning?
14 MR MANNING: I cannot remember offhand. It probably would
15 have been Lisa. She dealt with all the matters but
16 I cannot remember offhand, I could not be specific.
17 MR SHELDON: Did you hear anything more about those
18 allegations after that phone call on the morning of the
19 5th?
20 MR MANNING: From social services, no.
21 MR SHELDON: From anybody?
22 MR MANNING: It is something that Marie brought up before in
23 terms of the argument, something she brought up again
24 afterwards, but there was no foundation for the
25 allegation at all.
292
1 MR SHELDON: So just so we are clear about this, let me
2 confirm that I have understood what you have said.
3 Marie phoned up social services on the Monday morning to
4 tell them that Victoria had made the allegations against
5 you, is that right?
6 MR MANNING: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: As a result of that you went along at Marie's
8 request with her and Victoria to social services'
9 offices --
10 MR MANNING: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: -- on the Monday morning. As a result either
12 of what you were told then or what Marie later told you,
13 you expected to be interviewed about the allegations
14 either by social services or the police on 5th November?
15 MR MANNING: It would have been by the police I was told.
16 MR SHELDON: By the police. But apart from a call in the
17 morning on 5th November from social services you never
18 heard anything else about it?
19 MR MANNING: That is right, and it is also important to say
20 on the Tuesday as well that Marie had taken Anna to
21 social services, having Anna apologise to them saying
22 that she lied about the allegations and she was going to
23 withdraw it. I was not present at that but that is my
24 understanding of what happened as well.
25 MR SHELDON: Did you know that she was going to go back the
293
1 next day and withdraw the allegations?
2 MR MANNING: I did, yes, I know the allegations are not true
3 and Marie had calmed down and that is what she said she
4 was going do the next day with Victoria. The next day
5 being the Tuesday 2nd November.
6 MR SHELDON: Thank you. Were you surprised by the fact that
7 you never heard anything from either the police or
8 social services again about those allegations?
9 MR MANNING: I was, yes.
10 MR SHELDON: And were you aware that the plan that
11 Lisa Arthurworrey and Marie agreed on on 1st November
12 was for Marie and Victoria to go and stay with the
13 Kimbidimas?
14 MR MANNING: Yes, I was told this afterwards that they were
15 leaving, but I was aware --
16 MR SHELDON: Told that on Monday evening by Marie?
17 MR MANNING: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: Did they go and stay with the Kimbidimas?
19 MR MANNING: Victoria did, and this is what we have been
20 told what happened later that same day, Victoria went
21 and stayed with the Kimbidimas. I am not sure where
22 Marie went. I think she went to see -- I do not know,
23 she went out afterwards anyway. Then she came back home
24 and that is when I first seen her after the allegation
25 has been made and she explained what happened when she
294
1 went to social services with Victoria and Victoria
2 explained to social services about the allegations that
3 she is making against me. Circumstances other than
4 that, Victoria ended up coming back home that same night
5 so she did not stay away as was originally agreed.
6 MR SHELDON: So by the night of Monday the 1st, both Marie
7 and Victoria were back living in your flat, is that
8 right?
9 MR MANNING: That is right, yes. I have got to put it in
10 context as well. I mean like Victoria was agreed with
11 social services she would be released to go to stay with
12 the Kimbidimas. It was said afterwards that she told
13 them she had lied and that is why they brought her back.
14 That is all the allegations were not true at all so she
15 was brought back to the flat.
16 MR SHELDON: Can we turn now to the trips you made to France
17 with Marie and Victoria. I think according to
18 paragraph 17 of your statement you say that there were
19 two, one in October and one in November, is that right?
20 MR MANNING: That all three of us have made, that is right.
21 MR SHELDON: I know you went on a day trip on another
22 occasion but I am interested in when you were --
23 MR MANNING: We all went together in October, all went
24 together in November and Marie and Anna went together at
25 the end of November, early December and Anna came back
295
1 after about two weeks.
2 MR SHELDON: I see, so all three of you went in October?
3 MR MANNING: That is right.
4 MR SHELDON: All three of you went in November?
5 MR MANNING: That is right.
6 MR SHELDON: And then late November, early December Marie
7 and Victoria went on their own and stayed for two weeks?
8 MR MANNING: That is right, yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Let us take them in that order. The first trip
10 that you all made together in October, why did you go on
11 that trip?
12 MR MANNING: Just went to visit Marie's family.
13 MR SHELDON: Which family did you go and visit?
14 MR MANNING: Marie's family.
15 MR SHELDON: What members of her family, sorry?
16 MR MANNING: We visited her sons, two of her sons.
17 MR SHELDON: You stayed in a hotel, is that right?
18 MR MANNING: Yes, and we went -- we got driven where they
19 lived and we stayed there for the day, but we stayed
20 there for about a weekend it was, and we stayed in the
21 hotel.
22 MR SHELDON: Did you say a week or a weekend?
23 MR MANNING: It was, yes.
24 MR SHELDON: A weekend?
25 MR MANNING: It was a like a long weekend, Friday through to
296
1 Sunday.
2 MR SHELDON: I see. Whereabouts in France was that?
3 MR MANNING: They lived in Paris.
4 MR SHELDON: And Victoria was with you during the course of
5 that visit. Did she stay in the hotel with you?
6 MR MANNING: Yes, that is right.
7 MR SHELDON: Where did she sleep?
8 MR MANNING: She slept -- we hired a room so she had her own
9 bed.
10 MR SHELDON: I see. Was there a problem with her wetting
11 herself and soiling herself while she was in the hotel?
12 MR MANNING: Not that I remember, I do not remember any
13 problem. No.
14 MR SHELDON: Because by this stage you had thrown the
15 sofabed away at home for that reason, had you not?
16 MR MANNING: After we came back from that trip.
17 MR SHELDON: Was it?
18 MR MANNING: When I returned from that visit that is when
19 the sofabed was thrown out.
20 MR SHELDON: I see, so it was after you came back from the
21 trip in October that you threw the sofabed out and moved
22 Victoria out of the living room?
23 MR MANNING: Yes, at that time.
24 MR SHELDON: Can you remember what stage in October that
25 visit took place, was it early or late?
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1 MR MANNING: I think it is in the diary. You probably have
2 the dates yourself there.
3 MR SHELDON: Unfortunately I have not got the diary here.
4 I wonder if you can help.
5 MR MANNING: Well, I ain't got access to it. It would have
6 been about early October though.
7 MR SHELDON: Thank you. Was there any problem with
8 Victoria's behaviour whilst you were on that trip
9 together?
10 MR MANNING: Not that I remember, no.
11 MR SHELDON: Did you tell any of the authorities, did you
12 tell the social worker, Lisa for example, about the trip
13 to France that you made?
14 MR MANNING: Not that I remember, no.
15 MR SHELDON: Did you mention it to her when she came for
16 example to visit you in the flat on 28th October? Did
17 you say, "We all went off to France for a long weekend
18 earlier this month"?
19 MR MANNING: Not that I remember, no.
20 MR SHELDON: Can you help with why not? The reason I ask is
21 because during the course of that visit
22 Lisa Arthurworrey was talking to Marie about moving back
23 to France and Marie was talking about waiting for some
24 money from her friends for the fares, and yet you had
25 all been over a couple of weeks before. Why did you not
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1 mention that?
2 MR MANNING: I did not say much at that visit so I guess
3 Marie did not want to mention it, no.
4 MR SHELDON: Do you think Marie did not want
5 Lisa Arthurworrey to know that she had been on a trip to
6 France?
7 MR MANNING: If it was not mentioned I imagine not, no.
8 MR SHELDON: Let us move on to the second trip.
9 MR MANNING: All right.
10 MR SHELDON: The one that all three of you made in November.
11 Now, this must have been after the allegations of sexual
12 abuse that were made on 1st November. Can you remember
13 how long after?
14 MR MANNING: It was about mid-November, so maybe about,
15 what, a week to two weeks after, two weeks afterwards.
16 MR SHELDON: Okay. And why did you go back to France so
17 soon?
18 MR MANNING: I cannot remember a specific reason.
19 MR SHELDON: Where did you stay -- sorry.
20 MR MANNING: We ended up visiting the family again, so it
21 may have been a family matter, I do not know.
22 MR SHELDON: When you say the family do you mean the sons
23 you visited on a previous trip?
24 MR MANNING: Yes, that is right.
25 MR SHELDON: Where did you stay on this occasion?
299
1 MR MANNING: I think it was at one of the son's home, we
2 stayed there.
3 MR SHELDON: How long were you there for?
4 MR MANNING: It was again another long weekend so probably
5 no more than four days or so.
6 MR SHELDON: Can you remember where Victoria slept on that
7 occasion?
8 MR MANNING: Probably she shared a bed with one of -- or she
9 had her own bed, I cannot remember.
10 MR SHELDON: Because by this stage the sofabed had been
11 thrown away, had it not?
12 MR MANNING: Back at home, yes, it had been thrown away by
13 then.
14 MR SHELDON: But when she went to France she would sleep in
15 a bed, would she?
16 MR MANNING: On that occasion she did, yes.
17 MR SHELDON: And was there a problem with her wetting the
18 bed and soiling herself whilst she was sharing a bed
19 with someone?
20 MR MANNING: I cannot remember offhand any specific
21 problems.
22 MR SHELDON: Marie did not have a house in France, did she?
23 MR MANNING: Not that I know of, no.
24 MR SHELDON: Did she give you the impression that she had
25 been quite successful in her life in France, that she
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1 had had a good job and a nice house?
2 MR MANNING: She kept talking about her job but -- she said
3 she had a respectable job and a responsible job and
4 I just took it from there.
5 MR SHELDON: Did you ever ask her why she had left France to
6 come to England if she was doing well in France?
7 MR MANNING: Specifically, no, I did not.
8 MR SHELDON: As things were getting difficult with the three
9 of you living in your flat, did you ever say to her,
10 "Look, if you have got a job or you could get a job and
11 you have got a house in France, why do you not go back
12 because this is not working out"?
13 MR MANNING: No, I never said those words.
14 MR SHELDON: Did you ever say anything like that?
15 MR MANNING: No.
16 MR SHELDON: Did you think it was odd that a woman who was
17 successful in one country and had her own house and
18 a good job should want to come to another country to
19 live in places like Nicoll Road?
20 MR MANNING: At the time I did not think along those lines,
21 no.
22 MR SHELDON: There is one more visit I need to talk to you
23 about. You said that Marie and Victoria went to France
24 on a third occasion at the end of November,
25 early December for about two weeks, is that right?
301
1 MR MANNING: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: Do you know what the purpose of that visit was?
3 MR MANNING: The purpose, no. I mean she just went there,
4 she never even told me. It was only on the morning that
5 she left that I found out, so I do not know her real
6 reasons for going.
7 MR SHELDON: She just turned up back at your door two weeks
8 later, is that right?
9 MR MANNING: When she went back out she did call me so I did
10 know that they were okay out there.
11 MR SHELDON: Do you know where she was, where she was
12 staying?
13 MR MANNING: I think she stayed with her son again that we
14 stayed with in November.
15 MR SHELDON: I see. Again, do you know whether anybody from
16 social services, Lisa Arthurworrey in particular, knew
17 about these second two visits to France in November?
18 MR MANNING: The one for two weeks I do not think she knew
19 about that at all, no. I do not think she knew about
20 any of them.
21 MR SHELDON: She did not know about any of them?
22 MR MANNING: That is my memory, like I said, I do not
23 remember it being mentioned to her on a visit when we
24 first went so I cannot remember if the second one was
25 mentioned to her at all.
302
1 MR SHELDON: After you got that call from a social worker on
2 5th November, 1999, saying "we will call you back later
3 on in the day" and you never got the call back, did you
4 hear from any member of the authorities again about
5 Victoria up until she died?
6 MR MANNING: There had been a phone call. Lisa would like
7 call us. If no one was there she would leave a message
8 on the machine asking us to call back. So if she had
9 made a phone call, I think it was late November,
10 early December, so there had been contact by them but
11 personally I do not think I had seen anyone myself after
12 that 1st November.
13 MR SHELDON: So the only contact that you remember is
14 a phone message in late November, early December from
15 Lisa Arthurworrey asking for a call back, is that right?
16 MR MANNING: Yes, I think there was a couple of those.
17 MR SHELDON: There was a couple of them?
18 MR MANNING: I think so, yes.
19 MR SHELDON: Fairly close together or some time apart?
20 MR MANNING: I cannot remember the exact times so I cannot
21 remember, sorry.
22 MR SHELDON: Did you call back on either of those occasions?
23 MR MANNING: No, I did not.
24 MR SHELDON: Why not?
25 MR MANNING: I cannot recall my reasons, I just did not call
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1 back.
2 MR SHELDON: Were you aware that anybody was looking for you
3 in order to talk to you about Victoria? Were you aware
4 for example of anybody coming to the house to try and
5 find you?
6 MR MANNING: Me personally, no, I was not aware of that.
7 MR SHELDON: Did the neighbours ever tell you that somebody
8 had been around trying to find out if you were at home
9 or not?
10 MR MANNING: No, I was not told that.
11 MR SHELDON: Did you ever come home to find a note on your
12 door or pushed through the letterbox saying somebody had
13 come round to talk to you about Victoria and would you
14 get in contact with them?
15 MR MANNING: Not that I remember, no.
16 MR SHELDON: Do you remember anybody making enquiries at
17 your work at the depot asking if you were there, and if
18 so, would you get in contact?
19 MR MANNING: No, nothing was passed on to me along those
20 lines, no.
21 MR SHELDON: Did you or Marie either separately or together
22 make a decision to hide Victoria from the authorities
23 from the beginning of November onwards?
24 MR MANNING: Never made a conscious decision, no.
25 MR SHELDON: You did not sit down and think about it and
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1 think that you specifically did not want
2 Lisa Arthurworrey or any other social worker to see
3 Victoria any more?
4 MR MANNING: I do not know along those lines, no. It goes
5 back to like I said to you originally, Marie saying her
6 intention was to send Victoria back to Ivory Coast so
7 that thinking along those lines that is her original
8 intention, and like I said, I did not really do much
9 along those lines to encourage her or to say what are
10 you doing about the situation at all. It was just along
11 my lines of thinking that was her original intention,
12 that is what she would eventually be hoping to do.
13 MR SHELDON: It is just that in the four months from July
14 to November there has been fairly regular contact with
15 the authorities in visits to the offices, home visits to
16 your place, Marie has even got Lisa Arthurworrey
17 involved in your arguments with the sexual abuse
18 allegation, but then from November to Victoria's death
19 there is four months of nothing. I wondered why we |
