|
Archived Transcript for 28 September 2001: Pages
1 to 50
1
1 Friday, 28th September 2001
2 (10.00 am)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It seems
4 a little gloomy out there. I wonder if we could just
5 have some more of the lights on. Thank you very much
6 indeed.
7 Ladies and gentlemen, I should begin by saying that
8 in an unthinking way, yesterday, I ended the proceedings
9 by saying that the Inquiry was adjourned until 10.00 am
10 tomorrow. That was unthinking; I apologise for any
11 inconvenience that has caused, and may I confirm that
12 our intention is that in future the Inquiry will begin
13 at 10.00 am on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, but on
14 Friday, we will begin at 9.30 am. I clearly had
15 forgotten that the day after yesterday was a Friday, and
16 I am sorry about that.
17 Mr Garnham?
18 MR GARNHAM: Sir, good morning. Sir, our first witness is
19 to be Francis Climbie. I would ask first for the
20 translator to be sworn, although I cannot immediately
21 see that he is here.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Garnham, we will just pause for a moment.
23 (Pause).
24 MR GARNHAM: Before the interpreter is sworn, we are going
25 to need Mr and Mrs Climbie as well. (Pause). I wonder
2
1 if the interpreter could be sworn, please?
2 THE INTERPRETER (sworn)
3 MR GARNHAM: Mr Climbie, please. Could Mr Climbie now be
4 sworn, please?
5 MR FRANCIS CLIMBIE (sworn)
6 (All answers interpreted)
7 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much, sir. Might both the
8 interpreter and Mr Climbie be seated?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr Garnham.
10 MR GARNHAM: Mr Climbie, good morning.
11 MR CLIMBIE: Good morning.
12 MR GARNHAM: Thank you for travelling so far to assist us.
13 May I add, on the part of the counsel team, our sincere
14 condolences on the loss of your daughter.
15 MR CLIMBIE: Thank you.
16 MR GARNHAM: Mr Climbie, you are the father of
17 Victoria Climbie?
18 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: You have provided us with a statement, sir,
20 that can be found in volume 7, page 100.701 of our
21 bundles.
22 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: Could a copy of that statement be put in front
24 of the witness, please, unless he has one already?
25 Volume 7, page 100.701.
3
1 I wonder, please, if you could turn to the last page
2 of that statement; perhaps the witness manager could
3 help by turning to the last page of the statement,
4 please.
5 Mr Climbie, have you signed that statement after it
6 was translated to you?
7 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
8 MR GARNHAM: Are the contents of that statement true?
9 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: I wonder if you would begin, please, by telling
11 us a little about your family. Your mother had a number
12 of brothers and sisters.
13 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
14 MR GARNHAM: Is it right that they had the surname Kouao?
15 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
16 MR GARNHAM: I want to ask you about two of those siblings;
17 first Natchia, who I think was the eldest of those
18 brothers and sisters.
19 MR CLIMBIE: Natchia was the second.
20 MR GARNHAM: Is it right that he died in August of 1998?
21 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
22 MR GARNHAM: The second of those siblings I want to ask
23 about is Marie-Therese. How well did you know her?
24 MR CLIMBIE: It was my aunt, but I never really lived with
25 her, so I cannot really say that I really knew her.
4
1 MR GARNHAM: How often would you see her in the course of
2 a year?
3 MR CLIMBIE: When I was five years old, my parents divorced.
4 I went to live with my father, so because of the fact
5 that my aunt was coming from the mother's side, I did
6 not have many contact with her.
7 MR GARNHAM: Did Marie-Therese attend the funeral of Natchia
8 in August of 1998?
9 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: Did you? Did you also attend that funeral?
11 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, I attended.
12 MR GARNHAM: With your wife?
13 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
14 MR GARNHAM: And did you meet Marie-Therese at that funeral?
15 MR CLIMBIE: We saw her during the funeral, but we did not
16 have much time to speak with her.
17 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Next I want to ask you a little
18 about your own history, your own life. You tell us in
19 your statement that at the age of five, you left your
20 parents' home in order to go to primary school in
21 Anyaama, is that right?
22 MR CLIMBIE: I left my father to live with an uncle, who was
23 a teacher.
24 MR GARNHAM: And you went to his school?
25 MR CLIMBIE: In those days, teachers had to be sent -- were
5
1 sent to different schools, so whenever he was sent to
2 a different location, I had to follow him.
3 MR GARNHAM: I see, thank you. Then you went to secondary
4 school in Abidjan.
5 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
6 MR GARNHAM: Did you stay with the same uncle while you were
7 at that school, or were you with a different relative?
8 MR CLIMBIE: I was with another relative.
9 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. I think it is right that you then
10 left school and went into the hotel trade.
11 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
12 MR GARNHAM: And you worked for Novotel; was that in
13 Abidjan?
14 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
15 MR GARNHAM: When did you start working for Novotel?
16 MR CLIMBIE: It was during the year 1979/1980.
17 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. I think it is right that you
18 remained in their employ until 1999?
19 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
20 MR GARNHAM: You tell us in your statement that you then
21 started your own business.
22 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: But is it right that that did not prosper?
24 MR CLIMBIE: Yes. There was three of us. The person who
25 was in charge, who was working as the director, did not
6
1 do a good job, so because he was not able to lead this
2 business, it did not prosper.
3 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Are you currently in work?
4 MR CLIMBIE: No, I am not working.
5 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Next can I ask you a little more
6 about your family life? You married Berthe in 1981?
7 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
8 MR GARNHAM: And you have seven children?
9 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: Victoria is the fifth?
11 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, the fifth one.
12 MR GARNHAM: By the time that Victoria was born, where were
13 you living?
14 MR CLIMBIE: We were living in Abidjan, in a neighbourhood
15 called Abobo.
16 MR GARNHAM: At the time when we know Marie-Therese came to
17 visit you, which house were you living in? What was
18 your address?
19 MR CLIMBIE: The address of the place where I was living?
20 MR GARNHAM: Yes.
21 MR CLIMBIE: I was still living in Abobo, in a place called
22 Avockatic.
23 MR GARNHAM: And that was a three bedroomed house?
24 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
25 MR GARNHAM: At the time, you and your family were
7
1 relatively prosperous?
2 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
3 MR GARNHAM: When did Victoria start attending school?
4 MR CLIMBIE: Victoria started going to school at the age of
5 six, which means it was 1997, if I can remember.
6 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. And the name of the school, please?
7 MR CLIMBIE: Le Fromager.
8 MR GARNHAM: We were able to show some photographs of the
9 school a couple of days ago. I do not know whether we
10 can still produce those; yes, we can. Does that show
11 the schoolroom?
12 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, the classroom is being redecorated at the
13 moment, but yes, this is the classroom.
14 MR GARNHAM: Is that the outside of the school?
15 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, we are at the entrance.
16 MR GARNHAM: And that is you and the headmaster, I think?
17 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: Victoria had been in school for one year by the
19 time of Marie-Therese's visit, is that right?
20 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, that is correct.
21 MR GARNHAM: How was she doing in school?
22 MR CLIMBIE: She was doing very good, she was working hard.
23 MR GARNHAM: Was she producing good work at school, were you
24 pleased with her efforts?
25 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, we were happy.
8
1 MR GARNHAM: She finished her first year of school in
2 July 1998, I think.
3 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
4 MR GARNHAM: What did she do with her summer holidays that
5 year?
6 MR CLIMBIE: She went to Bassam, to her grandfather on the
7 mother's side.
8 MR GARNHAM: And returned to your home in the autumn?
9 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: During that summer, did you have any direct
11 contact with Victoria?
12 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, because she was living with me in the
13 home, we were in contact.
14 MR GARNHAM: Were you, Mr Climbie, also at the grandparents'
15 house in Grand-Bassam?
16 MR CLIMBIE: At the time when Victoria was on holiday?
17 MR GARNHAM: Yes.
18 MR CLIMBIE: No, I was in Abidjan, and she was in Bassam
19 with her grandfather.
20 MR GARNHAM: I suspected there had been a misunderstanding.
21 I am talking about the time when she was with her
22 grandfather. During that time, were you in direct
23 contact with Victoria?
24 MR CLIMBIE: Two weeks after her departure, me and her
25 mother, we visited her in Bassam.
9
1 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Were you on the telephone in the
2 house you were living in at the time?
3 MR CLIMBIE: No, we did not have a phone.
4 MR GARNHAM: Was there a phone at the house of Victoria's
5 grandfather?
6 MR CLIMBIE: No, there was no phone because the house was
7 located in a place of Bassam which was a little bit
8 behind the centre, where there was no electricity.
9 MR GARNHAM: Is there a postal service, in the part of the
10 Ivory Coast that you live, that delivers to houses?
11 MR CLIMBIE: The post is not delivered at the house, we have
12 to go to a specific place to pick up our mail.
13 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. You have told us, Mr Climbie, that
14 Marie-Therese Kouao travelled to the Ivory Coast for the
15 funeral of Natchia in August 1998.
16 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
17 MR GARNHAM: Do you know whether she stayed on in the Ivory
18 Coast after that visit?
19 MR CLIMBIE: As far as I can remember, just after the
20 funeral, everybody left to their own side, so I think
21 that she simply went back to France.
22 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. You tell us in your statement that
23 she then turned up at your house in the Ivory Coast in
24 October, is that right?
25 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
10
1 MR GARNHAM: Can you describe her appearance? Did she
2 appear wealthy?
3 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, she was. She looked wealthy -- healthy,
4 she had a good presentation, we could see that she was
5 in a good mood, that things were okay.
6 MR GARNHAM: You tell us in your statement that Kouao told
7 you that she had arranged a place at a school for one of
8 the children.
9 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: What did you understand by that expression,
11 "one of the children"?
12 MR CLIMBIE: Whenever a relative comes over from Europe to
13 Africa, sometimes they suggest that they could go back
14 with one child, and this is what I understood that she
15 was suggesting, that she could go back to Europe with
16 one of my children.
17 MR GARNHAM: When she first said that she had a place for
18 one of the children, did you understand her to be
19 referring to a child in your immediate family or a child
20 in your wider family?
21 MR CLIMBIE: I thought it was one of the children of the
22 close family, but I was not thinking it would be one of
23 my children.
24 MR GARNHAM: What does "the close family" mean in that
25 expression?
11
1 MR CLIMBIE: By "close family", I understood the nephews,
2 the cousins or the children.
3 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Did Marie-Therese Kouao tell you
4 that she had initially intended to invite the child of
5 another of your relatives to go with her?
6 MR CLIMBIE: At the beginning, she had told us that she had
7 already contacted one child and organised a place for
8 this child in a school in Europe, but at the last
9 minute, it did not happen, so she came to me and
10 suggested that she would take one of my children.
11 MR GARNHAM: The child who she originally had in mind, was
12 that Anna Kouao?
13 MR CLIMBIE: At the beginning, I did not know who was the
14 child involved. When I travelled over here, I was told
15 that one of my children, called Anna Kouao, had died, so
16 I realised that the kid who had died -- the child that
17 died was my daughter, but her name was not Anna Kouao,
18 her name was Victoria.
19 MR GARNHAM: When Kouao visited you in the Ivory Coast, were
20 you told that she had intended to take back with her to
21 France a child named Anna?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, could you repeat, please?
23 MR GARNHAM: When Kouao visited you in the Ivory Coast, did
24 she tell you that she had intended to take back with her
25 to France a child called Anna?
12
1 MR CLIMBIE: No, Marie-Therese just told me that she liked
2 my child and, as a nickname, she would like to name her
3 Anna.
4 MR GARNHAM: And Kouao chose to take Victoria as the child
5 who she would educate in France?
6 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
7 MR GARNHAM: What was your initial reaction to that
8 suggestion?
9 MR CLIMBIE: At the beginning, I find it a bit quick,
10 because I did not have the possibility to talk about it
11 beforehand, so it just happened. I was surprised.
12 MR GARNHAM: And did you then talk about it to your wife?
13 THE INTERPRETER: I was just trying to clarify who he was
14 talking about. Kouao had told him that she had found
15 a place in a fantastic school, for which she had paid an
16 amazing amount of money, and through this way she
17 managed to convince him that the child should go with
18 her.
19 MR GARNHAM: What was your wife's reaction?
20 THE INTERPRETER: So he told Kouao that he agreed to this,
21 because he is the nephew, but as he is not the only
22 person involved, there is the mother you will have to
23 ask.
24 MR GARNHAM: And what was your wife's response?
25 MR CLIMBIE: So Marie-Therese had a conversation with my
13
1 wife.
2 MR GARNHAM: What was your wife's response?
3 MR CLIMBIE: Finally we both agreed to the departure of
4 Victoria with Kouao.
5 MR GARNHAM: Did you discuss the papers that Victoria might
6 need?
7 MR CLIMBIE: What type of documents?
8 MR GARNHAM: Travel documents, ID documents.
9 MR CLIMBIE: We gave to Marie-Therese the birth certificate
10 of Victoria.
11 MR GARNHAM: What was Victoria's reaction to the prospect of
12 going with her great aunt to France?
13 MR CLIMBIE: She was happy.
14 MR GARNHAM: What was done to get her ready for the journey?
15 MR CLIMBIE: She was very happy, because in Africa, whenever
16 a child has the possibility to go to Europe, it is
17 somehow as if the personal and professional position is
18 going higher in the ladder of professional achievement,
19 so she felt that she would be -- everybody thought she
20 would be successful later on in the future.
21 MR GARNHAM: What preparations were made for the journey?
22 MR CLIMBIE: We did not have much time, so Victoria just
23 asked her mother to prepare her hair, so that she would
24 get ready for the travel.
25 MR GARNHAM: When was it intended that she should leave?
14
1 MR CLIMBIE: It was two days after the meeting with
2 Marie-Therese.
3 MR GARNHAM: Do you remember the date?
4 MR CLIMBIE: I remember it was in October, but I cannot
5 remember the date.
6 MR GARNHAM: So did Marie-Therese return to collect Victoria
7 on the day you had chosen?
8 THE INTERPRETER: I am just trying to clarify.
9 MR CLIMBIE: Marie-Therese just gave instructions to us on
10 what to do to prepare Victoria for the travel. She went
11 to Abidjan and then on the day of departure she came
12 back to us to pick up Victoria.
13 MR GARNHAM: Was there an emotional farewell?
14 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
15 MR GARNHAM: I think Victoria in fact left and returned the
16 next day because she had forgotten some things?
17 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, this is correct.
18 MR GARNHAM: And she collected on that second occasion
19 a doll and some more clothing?
20 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
21 MR GARNHAM: After that, she left?
22 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, she left with Marie-Therese.
23 MR GARNHAM: When did you next, Mr Climbie, hear from
24 Victoria?
25 MR CLIMBIE: A few months later, one of the sisters of
15
1 Marie-Therese came over to Abidjan, so she tried to
2 contact me, because she had something to give me -- she
3 wanted to give me something from Marie-Therese.
4 MR GARNHAM: And did she contact you?
5 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, she contacted me.
6 MR GARNHAM: How?
7 MR CLIMBIE: I was contacted through one of the brothers of
8 the sister of Marie-Therese, who works at the chemist,
9 so he sent me a letter, on which the phone number was
10 indicated, the one where I was supposed to dial to
11 contact the sister of Marie-Therese.
12 MR GARNHAM: Where did you phone from?
13 MR CLIMBIE: I called from a public phone at the place -- to
14 call the house where this sister was living at the time.
15 MR GARNHAM: Did you then meet up with this sister?
16 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, I met up with her.
17 MR GARNHAM: What did she tell you?
18 MR CLIMBIE: So I went to the place where this sister was
19 living with her husband, and we picked them up and took
20 them to our house.
21 MR GARNHAM: "Them" is the sister and her husband, is it?
22 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: And did she also produce for you some
24 photographs?
25 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, she had a photo album for me, and when she
16
1 had mentioned earlier on that she had something for me,
2 it was this photo album, with pictures of my daughter.
3 MR GARNHAM: Did the sister tell you how Victoria was?
4 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, just by looking at the pictures, we could
5 see that my daughter was well, that she was happy, and
6 the sister of Marie-Therese said that she was
7 intelligent and that she was feeling happy in Europe.
8 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Did you hear from Victoria again
9 during the summer of 1999?
10 MR CLIMBIE: Which month, exactly?
11 MR GARNHAM: Did you hear from her again? After the
12 photographs sent to the chemist, when did you next hear
13 from Victoria?
14 MR CLIMBIE: Three months after the departure of
15 Marie-Therese's sister, the sister called me to let me
16 know that Marie-Therese was going to England with my
17 daughter.
18 MR GARNHAM: Was that a call from France?
19 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
20 MR GARNHAM: And thereafter, when did you next hear of
21 Victoria?
22 MR CLIMBIE: It was in January 1999. I received an envelope
23 containing other pictures of Victoria.
24 MR GARNHAM: That was in January of the next year?
25 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, January 1999, I think.
17
1 MR GARNHAM: Can we check that date again? I think Victoria
2 left you in October of 1998, is that right?
3 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
4 MR GARNHAM: You heard from the sister, via the chemists,
5 some months later, so that would have been the beginning
6 of 1999.
7 MR CLIMBIE: These pictures arrived through the chemist.
8 MR GARNHAM: That would have been in the early part of 1999?
9 MR CLIMBIE: No, it would rather be the beginning of the
10 year 2000.
11 MR GARNHAM: I am sorry, I am going to try and go through
12 this again, because we want to get this right.
13 Victoria left the Ivory Coast in about October 1998,
14 is that correct?
15 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
16 MR GARNHAM: You heard about her, via the sister, in the
17 early part of 1999.
18 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: Some months after that, so that must have been
20 in the spring of 1999, you heard she had moved to
21 England.
22 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: From that time, when was it that you next heard
24 from Victoria?
25 MR CLIMBIE: It was in the month of January of the following
18
1 year that I received an envelope containing pictures of
2 Victoria.
3 MR GARNHAM: So that would have been January 2000?
4 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: Those photographs showed Victoria; how did she
6 appear in them?
7 MR CLIMBIE: There was a big difference with the time
8 before, because the pictures were really sad. My
9 daughter was looking very slim and really down, so
10 I think that she was -- she was looking very sad.
11 MR GARNHAM: Thank you.
12 MR CLIMBIE: What was strange was that the letters were
13 saying that my daughter was well and she was happy, so
14 it was a contrast with what I could see on the pictures.
15 MR GARNHAM: You were concerned?
16 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, I was very worried, because compared with
17 the first pictures, there was a big difference. I was
18 very worried.
19 MR GARNHAM: Were you able to get in contact with Victoria?
20 MR CLIMBIE: At the time, I was trying to find out how
21 I could get in touch with Victoria, because I did not
22 have a job, so I did not have any resources.
23 MR GARNHAM: Could you have afforded to fly to Europe to
24 find her?
25 MR CLIMBIE: It was impossible. I did not have the money.
19
1 MR GARNHAM: Could you have afforded an international
2 telephone call?
3 MR CLIMBIE: It was not possible either. We do not have all
4 these things over there.
5 MR GARNHAM: Do you have access to e-mail?
6 MR CLIMBIE: No, it was not even developed back in Africa at
7 the time. Today yes, but at the time, no.
8 MR GARNHAM: Did you have an address to which you could
9 write?
10 MR CLIMBIE: I did not have an address, I was only left with
11 a phone number, which was very complicated. An address
12 would have been more useful, but I did not have it.
13 MR GARNHAM: You told us earlier that you left your
14 employment with Novotel during 1999, and that you
15 started your own business and that business did not
16 prosper.
17 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: At the beginning of the year 2000, how
19 prosperous were you?
20 MR CLIMBIE: Things were very difficult, because we had
21 invested a lot of money, but things did not somehow
22 prosper, so we were left with nothing.
23 MR GARNHAM: Were there occasions when you did not have
24 enough money to buy yourself food?
25 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, at this time circumstances were very
20
1 somehow special. At some point, me and my wife, we did
2 not eat so that there would be some food left for the
3 children.
4 MR GARNHAM: Even if you had had a forwarding address, did
5 you have enough money to pay for international postage?
6 MR CLIMBIE: The problem was at the time, the only thing we
7 would have needed was a stamp, which costed
8 approximately 300-400 African francs, so we could have
9 asked somebody, but for the phone it would have been
10 much more complicated.
11 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. In March of 2000, I think you
12 received a note from Dr Augustin, asking you to go and
13 see him.
14 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
15 MR GARNHAM: What did he tell you?
16 THE INTERPRETER: The note was saying that the doctor had
17 received a phone call from England, and a message had
18 been left for Mr Climbie, and he was supposed to go and
19 meet him so that he could pick up this message.
20 MR GARNHAM: And did you do so?
21 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, I went there.
22 MR GARNHAM: What were you told?
23 MR CLIMBIE: When I went there on the first day, people did
24 not call, so I went back to my place.
25 MR GARNHAM: Who were you expecting a call from?
21
1 MR CLIMBIE: My uncle told me that it was a phone call from
2 England.
3 MR GARNHAM: Did you know who in England was phoning?
4 MR CLIMBIE: No, I did not know.
5 MR GARNHAM: So they did not phone back when they were first
6 expected. Did you return to receive the call later?
7 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, I went back to this place, because this
8 person in England called back and gave the time at which
9 they would call, so I had to go back.
10 MR GARNHAM: You returned at that time on that occasion and
11 received the call?
12 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
13 MR GARNHAM: Who was telephoning?
14 MR CLIMBIE: I was told it was the London Metropolitan
15 Police.
16 MR GARNHAM: And did you speak to the Metropolitan Police?
17 THE INTERPRETER: He is asking me, if he spoke with the
18 police?
19 MR GARNHAM: That is my question.
20 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
21 MR GARNHAM: What did they tell you?
22 MR CLIMBIE: I was told that my daughter, Anna Kouao, died.
23 MR GARNHAM: What was your response to that?
24 MR CLIMBIE: It was a shock.
25 MR GARNHAM: Did you know who they were talking about, when
22
1 they talked about Anna Kouao?
2 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, because Kouao was the surname of the
3 sister, and I also knew that the only child who was
4 taken to England was my daughter, so yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Did you tell your wife?
6 MR CLIMBIE: Not before a few days. I had to contact other
7 friends to get in touch with my wife.
8 MR GARNHAM: Because it was so difficult to tell her that
9 news?
10 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, because, at the time, things in our lives
11 were very difficult, so I did not know how she would
12 respond to the news.
13 MR GARNHAM: I think it is right, Mr Climbie, that you then
14 travelled to London at the end of March 2000?
15 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
16 MR GARNHAM: You were shown photographs of Victoria?
17 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: And you had the very difficult task of
19 identifying her body.
20 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
21 MR GARNHAM: I wonder if I could ask you, Mr Climbie, to
22 look at a photograph.
23 I think it will come up on the screen. This is
24 a photograph that we saw two days ago that shows your
25 daughter, I think.
23
1 MR CLIMBIE: Yes. It is horrible, because she was not
2 looking like this when she came over to England. She
3 had all her teeth and she was pretty. She was a pretty
4 girl who (inaudible). I feel how much my daughter
5 suffered, how horribly she suffered.
6 MR GARNHAM: There is one particular thing I want to ask you
7 about with regard to that photograph. It looks as if
8 there is one tooth missing -- I am sorry. (Pause).
9 Sir, I wonder if we should rise for a few minutes?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that would be appropriate.
11 We will just adjourn for a few moments, please.
12 Thank you very much.
13 (11.00 am)
14 (A short break)
15 (11.10 am)
16 MR GARNHAM: Thank you, sir, we can resume.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, when you can, we will
18 resume.
19 Thank you, Mr Garnham.
20 MR GARNHAM: Mr Climbie, you have seen the photograph about
21 which I want to ask you. I have just one question
22 arising from it, which is this: it appears as if one of
23 Victoria's front teeth was missing. Do you agree that
24 it appears that one of her teeth was missing?
25 MR CLIMBIE: On the picture that you showed?
24
1 MR GARNHAM: On the picture.
2 MR CLIMBIE: I think that two teeth were missing.
3 MR GARNHAM: When she left your care, were either of those
4 teeth missing?
5 MR CLIMBIE: No, no teeth were missing when she left me.
6 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. There is another and I hope rather
7 less distressing photograph that I would like you to
8 look at. Can we see the first of those, please? Do you
9 recognise that photograph, Mr Climbie?
10 MR CLIMBIE: Victoria.
11 MR GARNHAM: When did you first see that photograph?
12 MR CLIMBIE: It is one of the pictures that I received that
13 were in the album.
14 MR GARNHAM: So this is one of the photographs you received
15 in the early part of 1999?
16 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
17 MR GARNHAM: And does Victoria look as she did when she left
18 you, or does she look different?
19 MR CLIMBIE: There are no major differences.
20 MR GARNHAM: I wonder if one by one the other photographs in
21 that set could be shown, and if you could look at them
22 one by one, Mr Climbie, and then I will ask you
23 a question. (Pause). And the next. (Pause). And the
24 next.
25 Were those photographs also in the album you saw in
25
1 the early part of 1999?
2 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
3 MR GARNHAM: Do they appear to show Victoria as you remember
4 her when she was last with you at home?
5 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
6 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Prior to Victoria's trip to Europe,
7 how much did you know about life in Europe, Mr Climbie?
8 MR CLIMBIE: Before Victoria's departure, I imagined Europe
9 as a country where things are modern, where you can
10 achieve things.
11 MR GARNHAM: Did you know much about it?
12 MR CLIMBIE: At this time, I had never been to Europe. We
13 were listening to the news and we were watching
14 television.
15 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. A final series of questions,
16 please, Mr Climbie. When Marie-Therese came to visit
17 you on that occasion back in October 1998, did she
18 appear to you to be a woman that you could trust?
19 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
20 MR GARNHAM: Did she appear to be a genuine and honest
21 woman?
22 MR CLIMBIE: The way she was speaking, her appearance, were
23 proving it.
24 MR GARNHAM: Was there anything about her conduct with you
25 that gave you cause for concern?
26
1 MR CLIMBIE: No.
2 MR GARNHAM: It was, I think, the Metropolitan Police who
3 arranged for your travel to Britain to identify Victoria
4 and to attend the trial of Manning and Kouao.
5 MR CLIMBIE: The trial of?
6 MR GARNHAM: Carl Manning and Marie-Therese Kouao.
7 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
8 MR GARNHAM: How did they look after you while you were
9 here?
10 MR CLIMBIE: I was very well treated. They picked us up at
11 the airport, drove us from the airport to the hotel,
12 visited us every day. Whenever we were going somewhere,
13 they were with us.
14 MR GARNHAM: They looked after you well?
15 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
16 MR GARNHAM: Last question, Mr Climbie: we will look later
17 in this Inquiry at a number of photographs and a number
18 of maps and plans drawn of your daughter's body. They
19 show various marks on Victoria's body. Were there any
20 marks or scars on Victoria's body when she left the
21 Ivory Coast?
22 MR CLIMBIE: No, there were no obvious marks on her body,
23 but when you grow up in Africa, it is always possible to
24 have a few marks, a few scars on your legs or different
25 parts of your body, but I cannot say that there were
27
1 such things as obvious marks on her body.
2 MR GARNHAM: Mr Climbie, thank you very much indeed.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Garnham. Ms Dodson or Ms Boye?
4 MS DODSON: We do not consider it necessary to re-examine,
5 thank you. Mr Garnham has dealt with our concerns.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: I am grateful to you. I wonder if I could
7 just ask Mr Climbie a few questions, please.
8 Mr Climbie, you mentioned in your statement and in
9 your evidence this morning that when Marie-Therese Kouao
10 said that she was going to take Victoria to France, it
11 was very quick and your wife arranged her hair to be
12 done.
13 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, that is correct.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Was that to make her look pretty or had
15 Marie-Therese Kouao given you some instructions about
16 her appearance?
17 MR CLIMBIE: No, Marie-Therese did not give us any
18 instructions, she just asked us to prepare her hair so
19 she could look pretty for the travel.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. When you and your wife said
21 goodbye to Victoria, when did you next hope to see her
22 again?
23 MR CLIMBIE: During the next holidays, because Marie-Therese
24 had said that Victoria would come over for the next
25 holidays.
28
1 THE CHAIRMAN: And did she?
2 MR CLIMBIE: No, she did not come.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you know why she did not come?
4 MR CLIMBIE: I do not know.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Did that cause you concern?
6 MR CLIMBIE: No, I was not too worried, because I had
7 already seen the first pictures we received in January,
8 and at that time, as I said, there was no reasons to be
9 worried about anything. So later on, when she did not
10 turn up at the next holidays, I was not worried.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. How, in your family, Mr Climbie,
12 are children disciplined, or chastised?
13 MR CLIMBIE: Whenever in Africa you do something which is
14 not right, you are simply slapped on the buttocks. This
15 is what people used to do to me when I was a child. But
16 at the time when me and my wife started to have
17 children, we had religious vocations which greatly
18 influenced us in the way that we were told to try to
19 reason with children, to speak with them instead of
20 hitting them.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Was it usual that Victoria was hit?
22 MR CLIMBIE: Not at all. Ever since the date of her birth,
23 I never hit my daughter.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Could I ask just one more
25 question, Mr Climbie, which is: how in your family did
29
1 children behave when an adult walked into the room?
2 MR CLIMBIE: If this person is known, the children would
3 welcome him very warmly.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Would it be usual for children to stand to
5 attention?
6 THE INTERPRETER: "Stand to attention", try to get
7 attention?
8 THE CHAIRMAN: No, stand up in a disciplined manner.
9 MR CLIMBIE: Yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Just one other question, if I may. When
11 Victoria left, was she continent? In other words, she
12 could use the toilet properly?
13 MR CLIMBIE: Earlier on, when Victoria was very young, she
14 was not clean, but by the time she left, she was
15 continent.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Garnham, any follow-up?
17 MR GARNHAM: Just one second, sir. (Pause). Sir, just one
18 matter I will raise openly, so you know what the concern
19 is. The legal representatives and Mrs Climbie are
20 concerned whether the question that you put about
21 standing to attention was translated precisely. I do
22 not want to lead, but I wonder, sir, whether I could
23 invite you to ask the question again, and whether the
24 translator could translate precisely the question you
25 put.
30
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Garnham, I am grateful to you. My
2 colleagues on either side had already alerted me to
3 that.
4 Could we just go back to standing to attention,
5 please?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, could you please explain?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: There is a difference between standing up to
8 greet someone, from standing up as a soldier would stand
9 up. I wonder if Mr Climbie could explain to us which he
10 meant.
11 MR CLIMBIE: The children were standing up to show their
12 respect to the adult. It was not to smile, to welcome
13 warmly, it was, as you said, a bit like a soldier.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed. Sorry, would
15 they do that with Mr Climbie and Mrs Climbie?
16 MR CLIMBIE: At the moment?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: No, at home. When mother and father walk in
18 the room, do the children automatically stand up or do
19 they carry on what they are doing?
20 MR CLIMBIE: No, they are used to us, so they keep doing
21 whatever they are doing.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: So it is not the normal practice for children
23 to stand up when their parent walks in the room?
24 MR CLIMBIE: You are asking if it is a usual practice?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I am taking from Mr Climbie's earlier
31
1 response that in normal circumstances, everyday living,
2 that it is not usual for children to stand to attention
3 when a parent walks into the room.
4 MR CLIMBIE: Yes, it is not habitual, not something that
5 people normally do.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed. Mr Garnham,
7 anything else?
8 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much, sir.
9 Thank you, Mr Climbie.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Climbie, thank you very much.
11 MS LAWSON: Sir, I wonder whether, before Mrs Climbie is
12 called, I might raise a procedural matter arising out of
13 something which occurred during Mr Climbie's evidence?
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By all means.
15 MS LAWSON: Mr Garnham raised and allowed to hang in the air
16 the question of the missing tooth in the photograph.
17 Victoria was obviously of an age when children commonly
18 lose their milk teeth at the time that photograph was
19 taken, and then they are replaced obviously with their
20 second teeth.
21 There is, so far as I am aware, no evidence as yet
22 before the Inquiry to suggest that that tooth loss was
23 for any other cause. The only other evidence which we
24 have is the evidence of the forensic odontologist,
25 Mr Lewin, at the criminal trial, which went to
32
1 a completely different issue.
2 So I am somewhat troubled, given the fact that the
3 rest of us are expected to suggest lines of questioning
4 for other witnesses, and can obviously only do so on the
5 basis of material which is before the Inquiry, if it is
6 going to be acceptable for Mr Garnham, as it were, to
7 pull these rabbits out of a hat when there is no
8 evidence from which the rest of us could have deduced
9 that such a question was going to arise.
10 MR GARNHAM: Sir, if I can respond to that. Because this is
11 an investigation, not a trial, I do not have
12 a predetermined route or destination. Questions will,
13 I suggest, be put as seen apposite at the time. In
14 fact, that particular question was put at the request of
15 one of the other parties, consistent with the procedure
16 we had indicated we would adopt.
17 It is perfectly fair for my friend to point out that
18 the question is left hanging in the air, and we do not
19 know as yet the significance of the answer we have
20 received. It may well be that the answer is this was
21 the loss of a milk tooth, and a loss in the ordinary
22 course, and nothing more. The fact that I ask that
23 question and get that answer means nothing about any
24 conclusions that I might invite you to draw, sir. We
25 must simply keep that matter under review.
33
1 If it continues to be a subject of concern to those
2 who instruct my friend, then doubtlessly she will
3 suggest ways in which it should be pursued, so as to
4 bottom out the issue. I am inviting you to draw no
5 conclusions at all as yet from the evidence we heard.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: I am grateful to you, Mr Garnham, but I am
7 also grateful to Ms Lawson for raising the point,
8 because I wanted to make it plain that so far as I and
9 my colleagues here are concerned, we will draw from
10 questions of that kind exactly what we can and no more,
11 and I would like to illustrate this by saying that
12 I drew from that question that when Victoria was last
13 seen by Mr Climbie, she did not have any tooth missing,
14 but when that photograph was taken, there was one or
15 possibly two teeth missing. I have no reason to know
16 why they were missing.
17 Mr Climbie, thank you very much indeed.
18 (The witness withdrew)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Garnham?
20 MR GARNHAM: Sir, I call Mrs Climbie.
21 MRS BERTHE CLIMBIE (sworn)
22 (All answers interpreted)
23 MR GARNHAM: Madame Climbie, would you give us your full
24 name, please?
25 MRS CLIMBIE: My name is Ehoura, Mrs Berthe.
34
1 MR GARNHAM: How do you prefer to be addressed? Do you
2 prefer to be addressed as Madame Ehoura or
3 Madame Climbie?
4 MRS CLIMBIE: Call me Mrs Climbie.
5 MR GARNHAM: Mrs Climbie, you were the mother of Victoria.
6 MRS CLIMBIE: I am the mother of Victoria.
7 MR GARNHAM: And you have provided for us a statement.
8 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
9 MR GARNHAM: A copy of it will now be put in front of you.
10 It is found, sir, at volume 7, page 103.501. Would you
11 turn to the last page, please, Mrs Climbie? I think you
12 signed that statement.
13 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
14 MR GARNHAM: It is dated the 27th of this month.
15 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
16 MR GARNHAM: Are the contents of that statement true?
17 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: I think it is right, Mrs Climbie, that you grew
19 up in the village of Grand-Bassam?
20 MRS CLIMBIE: I was born in Grand-Bassam, but I was brought
21 up by my aunt.
22 MR GARNHAM: From what age were you brought up by your aunt?
23 MRS CLIMBIE: From the age of six.
24 MR GARNHAM: Where did your aunt live?
25 MRS CLIMBIE: In Williamsville, which was a neighbourhood of
35
1 Abidjan.
2 MR GARNHAM: Why was it that you moved from your parents'
3 home to live with your aunt?
4 MRS CLIMBIE: It was because the school, which was in
5 Grand-Bassam was too far away, so it was more convenient
6 to go with my aunt for school purposes.
7 MR GARNHAM: Did you stay with your aunt throughout your
8 primary schooling?
9 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: I think it is right that you did not go on to
11 secondary schooling.
12 MRS CLIMBIE: No.
13 MR GARNHAM: Did you, when you had finished your primary
14 schooling, then return to your parents' home?
15 MRS CLIMBIE: No.
16 MR GARNHAM: Where did you go and live then? Did you stay
17 with your aunt?
18 MRS CLIMBIE: I stayed with my aunt.
19 MR GARNHAM: Until you were what age?
20 MRS CLIMBIE: Until the age of 17 I stayed with her.
21 MR GARNHAM: And then where did you go?
22 MRS CLIMBIE: I stayed with her. She was teaching me
23 different activities, such as selling, for example.
24 MR GARNHAM: After the age of 17, did you continue to live
25 with your aunt?
36
1 MRS CLIMBIE: I was also living with my uncle.
2 MR GARNHAM: Did you continue living with them after the age
3 of 17?
4 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: Were you treated as part of their family?
6 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes, I was fine. I was very happy with them
7 both.
8 MR GARNHAM: Is it right that you stayed with them until you
9 married Francis, your husband, in 1981?
10 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
11 MR GARNHAM: You have lived in a number of houses, but
12 always in Abidjan?
13 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
14 MR GARNHAM: You have seven children, and Victoria was the
15 fifth, is that right?
16 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
17 MR GARNHAM: Can I ask you a little about Victoria, please?
18 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: What was her date of birth?
20 MRS CLIMBIE: She was born on 2nd November 1991.
21 MR GARNHAM: Was she a healthy baby?
22 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes, very healthy.
23 MR GARNHAM: Did she suffer childhood illnesses?
24 MRS CLIMBIE: She did not have any child illnesses, but she
25 had what we call the fever, which is malaria, but we
37
1 cured her with aspirin and some plants.
2 MR GARNHAM: I am afraid you are going to have to move the
3 microphone a little closer to you and give us that
4 answer again, please.
5 MRS CLIMBIE: She was cured with aspirin and plants and then
6 it healed.
7 MR GARNHAM: How old was she when she learned bladder and
8 bowel control?
9 MRS CLIMBIE: Three years old.
10 MR GARNHAM: Thereafter, were there occasions when she
11 suffered accidents, when she suffered from temporary
12 incontinence?
13 MRS CLIMBIE: No, there was no such things as accidents
14 because whenever she needed to go to the toilet, I was
15 coming, I was helping her.
16 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. I think it is right that she
17 started school at the age of six?
18 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes, she went to school.
19 MR GARNHAM: Was it a private school for which you and your
20 husband had to pay, or was it a state funded school?
21 MRS CLIMBIE: It was a private school, for which we had to
22 pay at the end of each month.
23 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. How would you describe Victoria as
24 a child when she was seven?
25 MRS CLIMBIE: She was healthy, she was articulate, she was
38
1 in good health. She has a good character -- she had
2 a good character.
3 MR GARNHAM: Was she a cheerful child?
4 MRS CLIMBIE: She was intelligent. She was very happy.
5 MR GARNHAM: Your husband has told us that he worked at the
6 Novotel hotel in Abidjan until late 1999.
7 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
8 MR GARNHAM: Then he started his own business.
9 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: But that business did not prosper, and you
11 endured, you tell us in your statement, some very hard
12 times.
13 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
14 MR GARNHAM: But is it right that those hard times came
15 after Victoria had left?
16 MRS CLIMBIE: When Victoria was with us, everything was
17 fine, we were working and we could take good care of our
18 children.
19 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. I want to ask you about the
20 circumstances of Victoria's leaving home. Victoria had
21 spent the summer holidays, your husband told us, with
22 your father.
23 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: During that holiday as well, your husband's
25 uncle's funeral had been held; Mr Climbie's uncle.
39
1 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
2 MR GARNHAM: Is it right that you had attended that funeral
3 and met there Marie-Therese Kouao?
4 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: Had you met her before?
6 MRS CLIMBIE: Marie-Therese lived very far away, she was in
7 France, so whenever we had -- whenever there was a big
8 event or ceremony, we could meet on these occasions.
9 MR GARNHAM: How many times had you met Marie-Therese
10 before?
11 MRS CLIMBIE: I had met her at the funeral of the mother of
12 my husband, at the funeral of the mother of
13 Marie-Therese, and at the funeral of Natchia.
14 MR GARNHAM: So only on three occasions?
15 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
16 MR GARNHAM: Did you know where Marie-Therese went after
17 Natchia's funeral?
18 MRS CLIMBIE: Well, after the funeral of Natchia, everybody
19 went in different directions from then on, but I know
20 Marie-Therese went back to France.
21 MR GARNHAM: Marie-Therese then returned to the Ivory Coast
22 in October, is that right?
23 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: And she came to visit you?
25 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes, she visited us.
40
1 MR GARNHAM: There came a time when she was talking in the
2 house to your husband whilst you were in the kitchen.
3 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
4 (11.45 am)
5 MR GARNHAM: You were then called into the room where they
6 were.
7 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
8 MR GARNHAM: And what were you told?
9 MRS CLIMBIE: My husband told me that Marie-Therese had come
10 here to take one of our daughters --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, I am just going to ask her to
12 repeat.
13 MRS CLIMBIE: My husband told me that Marie-Therese had come
14 to pick up one of my daughters, to put her in a school.
15 MR GARNHAM: What was your reaction to that?
16 MRS CLIMBIE: I was very happy.
17 MR GARNHAM: Why?
18 MRS CLIMBIE: I was very happy, because she came here to
19 pick up one of my daughters as --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, I am going to ask her to
21 repeat.
22 MRS CLIMBIE: Marie-Therese is the aunt of my husband, so
23 when she said that she came to pick up one of my
24 daughters, I said that there was no problem.
25 MR GARNHAM: Was that something that she expected, that an
41
1 aunt living abroad would come to collect one of her
2 children?
3 MRS CLIMBIE: No, I was not expecting it, because -- could
4 you repeat the question, please?
5 MR GARNHAM: Yes. Were the circumstances of that visit, and
6 the suggestion that Marie-Therese should take your
7 daughter away from you to Europe, something that was
8 regarded as normal or expected?
9 MRS CLIMBIE: Marie-Therese had come for a purpose, it was
10 to pick up one of my daughters and to put her in a
11 school. The reason why I let her have my daughter, it
12 was for her to be put in a school and not for any other
13 things.
14 MR GARNHAM: Is that a practice that often happens in the
15 Ivory Coast?
16 MRS CLIMBIE: I thought it was a good thing, because
17 Marie-Therese herself had been brought up by Natchia, so
18 when she told me she would like to take one of my
19 children, I did not object to this.
20 MR GARNHAM: What was the reaction of the children to this
21 suggestion by Marie-Therese?
22 MRS CLIMBIE: The child was happy, because when we were
23 discussing this matter, the children were attending, so
24 they were all very happy and all of them wanted to go.
25 MR GARNHAM: How was Victoria chosen?
42
1 MRS CLIMBIE: She was chosen by -- Marie-Therese just asked
2 to the kids which one wanted to go to Europe, and they
3 all raised their hands, and by a sort of game she
4 decided to pick just one of them, by organising some
5 sort of draw.
6 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. What did you know about
7 Marie-Therese's life in France?
8 MRS CLIMBIE: This time, Marie-Therese had told us that she
9 was working for an airport in France, that she was fine,
10 that her job was working well, and she had been sent to
11 London.
12 MR GARNHAM: Did you know whether she was prosperous?
13 MRS CLIMBIE: The thing is, when she came, she said she was
14 working for an airport in France, that she could have
15 free tickets, she had different credit cards.
16 MR GARNHAM: She had the signs of wealth?
17 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: Was there anything about Marie-Therese that
19 gave you cause for concern?
20 MRS CLIMBIE: When she left with my daughter?
21 MR GARNHAM: Yes.
22 MRS CLIMBIE: I was not worried at all, because it was the
23 aunt of my husband.
24 MR GARNHAM: Did she appear to be a trustworthy, sincere
25 woman?
43
1 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
2 MR GARNHAM: I think it is right that you helped Victoria
3 get ready for her journey?
4 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes, I prepared myself for the journey of my
5 daughter.
6 MR GARNHAM: Can you repeat the answer?
7 THE INTERPRETER: "Yes, I have prepared myself for the
8 journey of my daughter".
9 MRS CLIMBIE: Marie-Therese also gave me 5,000 African
10 francs so that I could go to a hairdresser and prepare
11 the hair of my daughter.
12 MR GARNHAM: Did Marie-Therese suggest the hair style that
13 you should pay to have performed on your daughter?
14 MRS CLIMBIE: She wanted to have a decoration --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, there is a word I do not know in
16 English. What you have -- dreads, with decorations.
17 MR GARNHAM: Was that at the suggestion of Marie-Therese, or
18 was that your idea?
19 MRS CLIMBIE: No, it was Marie-Therese's idea.
20 MR GARNHAM: After Marie-Therese left, while Victoria was
21 still with you, did you ask Victoria whether she really
22 wanted to go?
23 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: And what did Victoria say?
25 MRS CLIMBIE: She was happy. She said that she wanted to
44
1 go.
2 MR GARNHAM: At the time she left, Victoria was in good
3 health?
4 MRS CLIMBIE: She was very healthy.
5 MR GARNHAM: Were there any marks or scars on her body?
6 MRS CLIMBIE: There were no marks on her body.
7 MR GARNHAM: Your husband told us earlier that Victoria and
8 Marie-Therese left -- I think he said it was two days
9 later. Is that your recollection as well?
10 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes, I remember it happened this way.
11 MR GARNHAM: Did she take any identity papers or travel
12 documents with her?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, I am going to try to understand
14 the answer.
15 MRS CLIMBIE: I wanted her to travel with a birth
16 certificate.
17 MR GARNHAM: And did she do so?
18 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes, it was done.
19 MR GARNHAM: Any other documents?
20 MS LAWSON: I do not think that was accurately translated.
21 I think she said "she did that", i.e. Marie-Therese did
22 that.
23 MR GARNHAM: Can I just see the screen? (Pause). Let me go
24 back over those questions, because it is important we
25 get this right. Can I ask you to translate, so far as
45
1 you can, exactly what I say, and then immediately give
2 the response that she gives?
3 When Victoria left you, did she take with her any
4 papers?
5 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
6 MR GARNHAM: What papers did she take with her?
7 MRS CLIMBIE: The extract of the birth certificate.
8 MR GARNHAM: An extract from the birth certificate. Were
9 there any other papers that she took?
10 MRS CLIMBIE: No.
11 MR GARNHAM: Was it suggested that Victoria should take any
12 other papers by you?
13 MRS CLIMBIE: Other documents? Marie-Therese had said that
14 she wanted to put my daughter in a school, and an
15 extract of the birth certificate was requested, so this
16 is what I gave.
17 MR GARNHAM: Did Marie-Therese ask for the extract of the
18 birth certificate to travel with Victoria, or was that
19 your idea?
20 MRS CLIMBIE: I suggested it.
21 MR GARNHAM: Prior to this journey, had Victoria ever
22 travelled outside the Ivory Coast before?
23 MRS CLIMBIE: No.
24 (12.00 pm)
25 MR GARNHAM: Did she have a passport?
46
1 MRS CLIMBIE: No.
2 MR GARNHAM: I think it is right that the family came to see
3 Victoria off on the day she left.
4 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: But Victoria came back the next day because she
6 had forgotten a doll and some clothing?
7 MRS CLIMBIE: She came back because she had forgotten her
8 doll and a specific outfit that she fancied very much.
9 MR GARNHAM: Did you go to the airport to see Victoria off?
10 MRS CLIMBIE: No.
11 MR GARNHAM: Do you know whether Victoria went straight from
12 your home to the airport, or did she stay somewhere else
13 first?
14 MRS CLIMBIE: When they left our home, they went to
15 Dr Kouao, who was in Abidjan.
16 MR GARNHAM: So when they left your house, they went to stay
17 with Dr Kouao in Abidjan?
18 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: Do you know how long they stayed with him
20 before they left the Ivory Coast?
21 MRS CLIMBIE: No.
22 MR GARNHAM: Did you see Victoria again before she left the
23 Ivory Coast?
24 MRS CLIMBIE: No.
25 MR GARNHAM: I think you were in the room, Mrs Climbie, when
47
1 your husband gave evidence.
2 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
3 MR GARNHAM: And you heard him describe the contact that you
4 and he had with Victoria after she left.
5 MRS CLIMBIE: The contact we had with Victoria, or with
6 Marie-Therese?
7 MR GARNHAM: Your husband described the contact that you had
8 with the two of them, which was by means of some
9 photographs in the first part of the year, Antoinette
10 then returning later to bring them; and some photographs
11 in the latter part of the year or the beginning of the
12 following year.
13 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
14 MR GARNHAM: Was your husband's description of that
15 accurate?
16 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
17 MR GARNHAM: Were you expecting to see Victoria during the
18 summer of 1999?
19 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
20 MR GARNHAM: Were you concerned when she did not return home
21 that summer?
22 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: What did you do about it?
24 MRS CLIMBIE: I said a prayer so that one day she could be
25 back with us.
48
1 MR GARNHAM: The photographs that you received in
2 January 2000 showed Victoria; did those photographs give
3 you any cause for concern?
4 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: Why were you concerned?
6 MRS CLIMBIE: Because these pictures were not normal.
7 MR GARNHAM: In what way?
8 MRS CLIMBIE: On the second pictures that I received in
9 January, I could see that my daughter was much thinner,
10 that she could not stand properly, that her face was
11 much darker.
12 MR GARNHAM: Were you in a position to do anything about
13 what you saw?
14 MRS CLIMBIE: No. Life was really hard at the time, but
15 I was letting God take care of my worries, putting my
16 problems in God's hands.
17 MR GARNHAM: You then heard about Victoria's death when your
18 husband came back from receiving the message from the
19 Metropolitan Police, is that right?
20 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
21 MR GARNHAM: And later in March 2000, you travelled to
22 England in order to identify your daughter's body.
23 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: Is it right that that was arranged by the
25 Metropolitan Police?
49
1 MRS CLIMBIE: Yes.
2 MR GARNHAM: How were you looked after by the Metropolitan
3 Police while you were here?
4 MRS CLIMBIE: Good, fine.
5 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ms Dodson?
7 Mrs Climbie, we are very grateful to you indeed.
8 Thank you very much for your evidence. I wonder if
9 Mr Climbie could be invited to come forward?
10 I just wanted to say to you both that since you left
11 your home a few days ago, you have faced many
12 difficulties, some of which was obviously extremely
13 distressing. We are extremely grateful to you.
14 MR GARNHAM: I wonder if I could ask Mr and Mrs Climbie to
15 resume their seats?
16 (The witness withdrew)
17 MR GARNHAM: My thanks to the interpreter.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Garnham, I wonder if you will be agreeable
19 if we have a short break now. Could I say no more than
20 ten minutes, please?
21 MR GARNHAM: Thank you, sir.
22 (12.10 pm)
23 (A short break)
24 (12.20 pm)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, we will resume very
50
1 shortly, if we may.
2 Mr Garnham?
3 MR GARNHAM: Sir, before we take our next witness,
4 Mrs Lawson has raised a point with me which had escaped
5 me, which seems to me of potentially some significance.
6 One of the difficulties created by the fact that the
7 statement of Mr and Mrs Climbie was received so late was
8 that it was not circulated to the interested parties
9 very early, and therefore they had little time in which
10 to suggest questions to me.
11 Mrs Lawson has suggested to me a point which seems
12 to me potentially of significance, and that I would not
13 want to let go, in fairness to all those involved. That
14 being so, sir, I would like to recall Mrs Climbie, to
15 put one further matter to her. She is not now in the
16 room, so it will mean a short pause while we fetch her
17 and the translator back, please.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Garnham, I am content for that to happen.
19 (Pause).
20 MR GARNHAM: Sir, given that this is going to take a little
21 time, and given that a number of parties were not aware
22 of this point, the most convenient course may be for us
23 to progress with the next witness. In the meantime, if
24 I give the page references to those here, so that others
25 can look at the point that concerns me and Mrs Lawson,
|
