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Archived Transcript for 15 October 2001: Pages
51 to 100
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1 the East Referral and Assessment Team.
2 MS GIBSON: And I am right in saying that your main
3 responsibilities at the time were taking child
4 protection referrals and undertaking child in need
5 assessments?
6 MS THRIFT: Yes, that is correct.
7 MS GIBSON: You say at paragraph 8 of your statement that
8 you received no induction when you arrived at Brent.
9 MS THRIFT: No formal induction. What I received was a pack
10 of A4 pieces of paper that was like an induction manual,
11 that was given to me to read, not on the first day, read
12 it as you go along. I also did some short trainings
13 within Brent Council that are listed in my CV. I cannot
14 remember them offhand at the moment, but they are listed
15 in my CV.
16 MS GIBSON: That was as you went along, was it, in Brent?
17 MS THRIFT: The training manual, what I had to read was as
18 I went along. The trainings, I am sure I did one in
19 November, quite early in the piece.
20 MS GIBSON: Can you assist with what that training consisted
21 of?
22 MS THRIFT: No. It is in my CV, which I think you have.
23 I cannot remember at the moment.
24 MS GIBSON: Yes, we do have that so we can refer to that.
25 You say that you were given a manual to read and then
52
1 the next day you went down to work on the Duty Team.
2 MS THRIFT: No, the manual I read on the first day. I was
3 actually employed by a long-term team, they were placed
4 on the first floor. I spent one day in that team and
5 then the decision was made by managers that they felt
6 I should cover their duty on a permanent basis. I went
7 down to duty on the following day and that is when I was
8 given the duty manual to read.
9 MS GIBSON: Were you actually taking cases on that day, as
10 well as having to read the manual?
11 MS THRIFT: I do not think I was taking cases on.
12 I remember on my first day I was asked to shadow
13 a fellow social worker who sat across from me.
14 MS GIBSON: Did you feel that this was an adequate induction
15 programme?
16 MS THRIFT: I cannot remember how I felt really. I had
17 already worked in England for six months, maybe due to
18 that they thought I may have been experienced. I did
19 feel though maybe I should get a little bit more time to
20 understand Brent procedures. It was very busy, but the
21 colleagues all around me were extremely helpful,
22 including my seniors.
23 MS GIBSON: You had previously worked, I think, at
24 Tower Hamlets. Had you received any formal training
25 when you arrived there?
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1 MS THRIFT: I cannot remember the training I received in
2 Tower Hamlets. I did some short training courses in
3 Tower Hamlets, but I really cannot remember.
4 MS GIBSON: So is the position really that -- what did Brent
5 know at that time of your training from Tower Hamlets?
6 MS THRIFT: Brent would have had a copy of my resume, which
7 would have had a list of the trainings I had received
8 whilst in Tower Hamlets. I would have assumed they
9 would have read that.
10 MS GIBSON: Were the procedures in Brent different from the
11 ones you were used to in Tower Hamlets?
12 MS THRIFT: I do not think they were -- because in Brent,
13 I worked on a different kind of team. In Brent I worked
14 on a duty team. In Tower Hamlets I worked on
15 a long-term team. In Tower Hamlets, I did not do very
16 much duty, emergency work, responding to emergency
17 referrals. You are still under the same Children Act
18 though. In Tower Hamlets, I had completed child
19 protection conferences and knew a little about child
20 protection. I did child in need assessments. So I knew
21 the basic things were the same; maybe not the
22 procedures.
23 MS GIBSON: And what help were you given with the actual
24 systems that were operating in your office in Brent, of
25 how referrals would be taken and passed on?
54
1 MS THRIFT: When I first arrived in Brent, my senior was
2 Miss Monica Bridgeman and she verbally talked me through
3 referrals, showed me the big blue form that you had to
4 fill in, who did you have to pass it to, make sure you
5 fill in all the boxes, et cetera.
6 MS GIBSON: And from your point of view, was that
7 satisfactory? Did you feel that you had sufficient
8 guidance when you began there?
9 MS THRIFT: Yes, I found that was satisfactory, because
10 I knew also that I was surrounded by at least eight to
11 nine colleague social workers, who if I was stuck, and
12 if I had to ask a question, I knew I could always ask
13 them.
14 MS GIBSON: You have given us already some details of what
15 it was like to work in the Duty Team, but how would you
16 describe the actual workload that that team was dealing
17 with at this time?
18 MS THRIFT: You mean the time around Victoria came to Brent?
19 MS GIBSON: Yes.
20 MS THRIFT: I think it actually increased from the time that
21 I started in Brent. I was probably holding maybe 15
22 duty cases, and when I first started in Brent, the Duty
23 Team ran a bit differently. It was on a rota basis, and
24 every morning, Ms Bridgeman would give me a file, "This
25 is your visit for the day, this is the assessment you
55
1 must complete, complete it and give it back to me".
2 Round about June/July 1999, you were given cases to hold
3 on to a bit longer, so I would actually have a drawer of
4 cases, as opposed to just have one on the day and
5 complete your assessment and give it back.
6 MS GIBSON: So when you moved on at that time to this system
7 where you were holding a drawerful of cases, would you
8 say that the pressure of your work would increase,
9 because you would then be responsible for the management
10 of those cases yourself?
11 MS THRIFT: Yes, I can say that I am sure I experienced an
12 increase in pressure into the middle of 1999, as opposed
13 to when I started in Brent.
14 MS GIBSON: And what was the atmosphere like in the Duty
15 Team at that time?
16 MS THRIFT: I remember it being very busy. I always felt
17 supported, I really did enjoy my job, I enjoyed going to
18 work. I felt that I could manage it, but at the same
19 time, the phones were constantly ringing, there was
20 a lot of people coming in, but I felt there was
21 a balance. It was stressful, but you could manage it,
22 because you were supported.
23 MS GIBSON: Did your fellow workers feel the same way about
24 the team as you?
25 MS THRIFT: Yes, I think they did, because I actually made
56
1 some quite close friends in that team, so we did talk
2 about work.
3 MS GIBSON: Can I ask you now about administrative support
4 for your team? We have already heard that there was
5 some backlog in admin tasks being done, particularly
6 checking for previous referrals. Was that your
7 experience?
8 MS THRIFT: I know there was a backlog, only because I know
9 they looked very, very busy, and I knew just by people
10 talking in the office that the Admin were overworked,
11 they had a lot of work to do. I remember a lady in
12 Administration had left, and then I think for a while
13 there may have only been two admin workers and another
14 one came in, so I remember them being short staffed.
15 MS GIBSON: You said at paragraph 7 of your statement that
16 you would sometimes stand behind the administrative
17 worker while they did checks, or alternatively, you
18 would hand the blue referral form to your team manager,
19 or a senior social worker, and they would then get
20 Administration to do the checks. Was the reason for
21 standing behind the administrative worker a way of
22 making sure the job got done?
23 MS THRIFT: No, there was a difference in the way you did
24 your checks. If a child protection referral came in,
25 I would want to get that information on that blue form,
57
1 hand it to my senior, so the checks would be done by the
2 senior and given to the Child Protection Team. If, for
3 instance, the school rang up to say, "We have got some
4 problems with this young boy, I think he might have
5 a social worker, would you just check for me?", I would
6 say, "Sure, hold on the line", I would just place the
7 phone down, run over to administration, stand behind
8 them, get them to do the check, so it was kind of
9 different circumstances that I would do those different
10 checks.
11 MS GIBSON: And what about in the case of a child protection
12 referral, what would happen there?
13 MS THRIFT: In a child protection referral, I would take the
14 information, I would go straight to my senior, make sure
15 I passed it to her hand, not placed it on her desk.
16 I know the procedure was for her, this was
17 Pauline Phillips, to write the referral in an A4 book.
18 Then the referral would be shown to the Child Protection
19 Team and at the same time given to Administration to do
20 their checks immediately. I did not do the checks.
21 MS GIBSON: So responsibility for ensuring checks were done
22 was with a manager in your team, or with the Child
23 Protection Team?
24 MS THRIFT: It would be with more than likely the senior
25 social worker of the Duty Team.
58
1 MS GIBSON: But would there be occasions, for example, if
2 the senior social worker was not present, when somebody
3 else would take on responsibility?
4 MS THRIFT: If the senior social worker was not present, and
5 say my manager was not there, the referral would be
6 taken immediately to the Child Protection Team. They
7 would then go to the Administration, with the referral
8 in their hand, and do their checks.
9 MS GIBSON: So it would never be you who would ensure that
10 checks were done in a child protection case?
11 MS THRIFT: No, it would not be the responsibility of the
12 duty social worker to do that.
13 MS GIBSON: We know that you occupied the same floor in the
14 building as the Child Protection Team. Would you say
15 that there was any tension between the two teams in
16 relation to the large amount of work that was coming in?
17 Were there any disputes about whether a case was
18 properly allocated to the Child Protection Team, or the
19 Child in Need Team?
20 MS THRIFT: I was not aware of any tension. I actually
21 found the Child Protection Team very helpful. They had
22 a whole lot of knowledge that as duty social workers we
23 did not necessarily have. They did risk assessments,
24 they did conferences. I found in my work, if I wanted
25 some information or I wanted to learn a little bit more
59
1 about my case, I could always go over there and chat
2 with them. I was not aware of any tension, unless that
3 happened behind closed doors.
4 MS GIBSON: Who would be responsible for deciding whether
5 a case was a child protection case or a child in need
6 matter?
7 MS THRIFT: I can talk from my own experience. When someone
8 would ring up with a referral, I would ask them to just
9 quickly have a bit of a chat with me about it. I felt
10 experienced enough to be able to make that decision.
11 Even if I was not that sure, I would actually prefer to
12 take the referral on a blue form myself. So I think in
13 that way, it was the social worker who made that
14 decision on that call. I knew that if my decision was
15 wrong, my senior would pick it up, because the referral
16 went to my senior, or my manager would pick it up.
17 At the end of the day, it was Edward Armstrong's
18 decision, in discussion with Miss Roper, about which
19 team that referral would go to.
20 MS GIBSON: You have already described the process for
21 a child protection referral coming in. What would be
22 the case with a child in need referral? Say you took
23 a telephone call, and your decision was, "This is
24 a child in need matter". What would be the process
25 after that?
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1 MS THRIFT: I would ask the person to hold on the phone. I
2 would explain that the One Stop Shop are responsible for
3 taking child in need referrals. I would ask them to
4 give their name, the details of the client, and
5 a summary of their concern and then I would patch the
6 phone through to the One Stop Shop, make sure I spoke to
7 them, and put the phone down.
8 MS GIBSON: So you are quite clear that child in need
9 referrals were taken by the One Stop Shop rather than in
10 your team?
11 MS THRIFT: Yes, child in need referrals were taken by the
12 One Stop Shop.
13 MS GIBSON: So it would be re-referred through to them if it
14 had come from them in the first place?
15 MS THRIFT: Sorry, I do not understand.
16 MS GIBSON: Say you take a call and you decide it is a child
17 in need matter. If it had come through from the One
18 Stop Shop in the first place as a referral would you
19 then simply just reroute it back to them?
20 MS THRIFT: Not necessarily. I think that would be a bit of
21 a waste of time. If they have taken the referral and
22 thought, "It is child protection, you take it", I would
23 not then patch it back. I would think, "Well, I may as
24 well just take it otherwise we are just wasting time".
25 MS GIBSON: So as far as you were concerned, when the One
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1 Stop Shop were taking calls, they would be deciding, at
2 the first point of contact, whether it was a child in
3 need or a child protection case?
4 MS THRIFT: If the phone call went straight through to the
5 One Stop Shop, I assume they would have to make that
6 decision, whether to call the duty social worker or
7 whether to take that referral.
8 MS GIBSON: And was it always the case that classification
9 of cases would take place at the very outset, as you
10 have described, into one category or the other, child in
11 need or child protection?
12 MS THRIFT: Sorry, what was the question?
13 MS GIBSON: From the outset, when you would take a referral
14 into your office, was the case always given a label,
15 child protection or child in need?
16 MS THRIFT: Yes, there is a little box on the blue form, on
17 the first page, that you would write in, well I used to,
18 anyway, "CP" or "CIN", according to me. As I said,
19 I knew that would go to my senior who could change that
20 decision or it would go to my manager who could change
21 that decision as well.
22 MS GIBSON: What would happen in cases where you could not
23 decide on a classification?
24 MS THRIFT: I would just take the referral anyway and
25 I would give it to my senior and I would say, "I think
62
1 this is maybe a child protection matter", and she would
2 take it from there.
3 MS GIBSON: How would the urgency of the case be determined,
4 as to how quickly someone should go and see the child,
5 or deal with the case?
6 MS THRIFT: The urgency of the case in the beginning was
7 always up to the senior social worker, because we were
8 given the files after the actual letter of appointment
9 had been sent out, so I am not sure who made that
10 decision. I only got the file on the day of the visit.
11 Probably around June/July, when I had my own caseload,
12 it would be my decision when I would go out, but once
13 I was given the file on that day, I would always send
14 the letter out on that day for the next week.
15 MS GIBSON: What would be the usual response to an anonymous
16 referral?
17 MS THRIFT: It depends what the concern is, really.
18 MS GIBSON: So if it had been a referral saying that a child
19 had been seen with cuts and bruises, what would the
20 response be?
21 MS THRIFT: My personal response would be to take that
22 information, always label the referral as anonymous, you
23 have to be very clear, or if that person gave you a name
24 but wanted to remain anonymous, that is very important
25 as well; I would pass that straight on to my duty senior
63
1 to give to the Child Protection Team to investigate.
2 MS GIBSON: Thank you. We can now look at your involvement
3 with Victoria's case. If we could just have a look at
4 the referral form that you took down, it is at volume 5,
5 page 34, and you will get a copy of that. Is this the
6 blue form you were referring to before? I know it is
7 not blue here.
8 MS THRIFT: Yes, it is not very good. I cannot read it very
9 well.
10 MS GIBSON: Right. I am sorry if it is not a very good
11 photocopy, but can you manage to read what is there?
12 MS THRIFT: Yes, I know that is the referral that I took
13 because that is my handwriting and that is my name.
14 MS GIBSON: And is it your handwriting at the top of the
15 page as well:
16 "Note: mother may have been placed in Brent by
17 Ealing Council"?
18 MS THRIFT: Yes, that is my handwriting.
19 MS GIBSON: And can you assist us with when that part was
20 put on the form, the bit at the top?
21 MS THRIFT: I must have done that when I took the referral,
22 because after I write on these blue forms, I do not see
23 them again. I hand it to my senior social worker. So
24 it would have been at the time that I took the referral
25 on the phone.
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1 MS GIBSON: So everything in this form, and turning over to
2 page 35, would have been filled in in one go by
3 yourself?
4 MS THRIFT: Definitely, then I would have passed the
5 referral to my senior.
6 MS GIBSON: And you at this stage categorised the case as
7 child protection?
8 MS THRIFT: Yes, that is correct.
9 MS GIBSON: And we see that the referral is 14th July at
10 4.00. Then turning over to page 35, does that say
11 "Referral taken, passed to duty manager at 4.20"?
12 MS THRIFT: Yes, I think that is what that says.
13 MS GIBSON: Can you assist with who this referral would have
14 been passed to? It is at 4.20 in the afternoon.
15 MS THRIFT: I cannot remember who exactly it would have been
16 passed to, but I can say confidently that it would have
17 been Pauline Phillips, Monica Bridgeman or
18 Edward Armstrong.
19 MS GIBSON: You say you could say confidently, but what
20 would be the case if it was late in the afternoon, and
21 those people were either busy, not in the office,
22 because it is getting towards 5.00 -- what would happen
23 then?
24 MS THRIFT: I always remember my seniors always being in the
25 office. I do not think there was really any time that
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1 they were not there. They were always there for
2 consultation. I do not remember Mr Armstrong ever
3 leaving the office before 5.00 either.
4 MS GIBSON: So would there be any possibility that there
5 referral might have gone straight to the Child
6 Protection Team from you?
7 MS THRIFT: The only way that would have happened is if
8 Pauline Phillips, Monica Bridgeman or Edward Armstrong
9 were not in the office.
10 MS GIBSON: You have already described that the
11 administrative checks would not be your responsibility
12 in these types of cases.
13 MS THRIFT: That is correct.
14 MS GIBSON: Can you help on this particular occasion with
15 who would have done the administrative checks?
16 MS THRIFT: Once I passed the referral through to one of the
17 three people that I mentioned, it would have been their
18 responsibility to place the referral in the A4 book,
19 take the referral to Administration to get the checks
20 done and alert the Child Protection Team there was
21 a child protection referral on its way.
22 MS GIBSON: Can you help us with where the reference on the
23 form that we have just been looking at to Ealing came
24 from?
25 MS THRIFT: I cannot really read it. I remember that I have
66
1 written somewhere there that there is suggestion that
2 the family were placed by Ealing Council in Brent, is
3 that right?
4 MS GIBSON: If we just look at it, page 34, there is a note
5 right at the top which says:
6 "Mother may have been placed in Brent by Ealing
7 Council."
8 MS THRIFT: Yes, that is correct.
9 MS GIBSON: Then over the page at 35:
10 "Details of the referral: Anna is a recent arrival
11 in the UK. Her mother lives in a bed and breakfast in
12 Nicoll Road, believed to be housed by Ealing Council, to
13 be checked."
14 Can you assist with where you got that information
15 about the link with Ealing Council?
16 MS THRIFT: The only place I could have got that information
17 was from the referrer. I would not have had discussions
18 with anybody else -- knowing the urgency of a child
19 protection referral, my goal is to get the details as
20 quickly as possible and get them to my senior.
21 MS GIBSON: We know here the referrer was Dr Ajayi-Obe; do
22 you think it is likely that that piece of information
23 came from Dr Ajayi-Obe?
24 MS THRIFT: Yes, must have been.
25 MS GIBSON: Is there any possibility you may have got that
67
1 information from others sitting round you, who may have
2 been aware of this case, in the office?
3 MS THRIFT: No, I do not think so, because I never really
4 had discussions with anybody else when I took referrals.
5 I was very concentrated on getting those details on that
6 bit of paper, and getting it to my senior, so the Child
7 Protection Team had to do what they had to do.
8 MS GIBSON: So after you had filled in that form we have
9 been looking at, the blue form, you would have passed
10 the case on and there your responsibility would end?
11 MS THRIFT: That is correct.
12 MS GIBSON: Thank you very much. If you would wait there,
13 there may be some more questions.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Miss Gibson. Mr Turner?
15 MR TURNER: Just look again kindly at 5/035, because the
16 Chairman enquired the other day as to what the "please
17 see fax" reference may be. It is about the middle of
18 the page, just above the second punch hole, do you see
19 that?
20 MS THRIFT: Yes.
21 MR TURNER: "Please see fax". What is your recollection of
22 what that was a reference to?
23 MS THRIFT: I do not have a recollection actually about
24 taking the referral or what that fax was. I can say
25 that fax would have been from the hospital. The
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1 referrer was the hospital. Anything relating to that
2 referral would have to have been from the hospital.
3 MR TURNER: I think we may find the hospital fax at 5/014,
4 if you would be kind enough to turn back in the same
5 bundle. Does that ring any bells or not?
6 MS THRIFT: No, it does not ring any bells.
7 MR TURNER: Very well. Had you any knowledge at any time of
8 any earlier referral to social services generally,
9 either via the One Stop Shop or by any other means,
10 about this child?
11 MS THRIFT: No, I did not have any knowledge about any other
12 referral.
13 MR TURNER: And did anyone at your request or otherwise do
14 any checks on the spot about other social work links?
15 MS THRIFT: Not that I can recall.
16 MR TURNER: Thank you. You were asked a little bit about
17 your induction and the way in which that was gone about.
18 In broad terms, was it adequate to enable you to get to
19 grips with the way things were in Brent, and procedures,
20 or inadequate?
21 MS THRIFT: I felt it was adequate, because at no time did
22 I feel like I could not manage, or I felt, oh, I cannot
23 work here, this is too stressful, so I would say that it
24 would have been adequate. I also had the support of all
25 the people around me, who were very, very helpful. It
69
1 is the kind of job that you can also learn as you go
2 along, as well as having an induction.
3 MR TURNER: Of course, and in terms of that collegiate
4 support that you have referred to, did that compare
5 favourably or unfavourably with the ethos in your
6 previous borough or boroughs?
7 MS THRIFT: It was much the same actually. I found Tower
8 Hamlets was also a fantastic place to work for, and
9 I found Brent equally as supportive.
10 MR TURNER: Thank you. Was it ever the case that files were
11 worked on by Duty before they were ever passed to
12 Administration for checks?
13 MS THRIFT: No, I do not think so, because when I used to
14 get a file to do an assessment, the checks would have
15 already been done, and if the child was previously
16 known, they give you a sheet that has got a spool number
17 and a frame number, which you know you go upstairs to
18 use the microfilm to obtain that information, or if
19 a paper file actually existed, that would be attached to
20 your file with an elastic band, so the checks would
21 always have been done before I got the file.
22 MR TURNER: Right. You say that the Child Protection Team
23 was very helpful and very knowledgeable. What sort of
24 knowledge are you referring to when you make comment on
25 their knowledgeability?
70
1 MS THRIFT: I recall when I was in the Duty Team that I had
2 a couple of cases where during my assessment, I started
3 to feel a little bit concerned that there would be
4 possible child protection issues there, and I know that
5 I used to go over to the Child Protection Team,
6 particularly Miss Austin, who is a senior, and
7 I actually remember having discussion with Miss Roper,
8 the team manager, saying to them, "I have done this
9 assessment, I am a little bit worried, there are some
10 things here that I think could possibly be child
11 protection". We would discuss it, go through the file,
12 and they would either agree to take it on or it would
13 stay with child in need.
14 MR TURNER: So when we are using the word "knowledge", are
15 we talking about judgment or knowledge of practice?
16 MS THRIFT: I think I am talking more about experience, in
17 being able to -- I cannot think of the word. Being able
18 to see indicators of child abuse. Because my work was
19 child in need, I did not have that experience. I had it
20 in Tower Hamlets but not in Brent.
21 MR TURNER: What in your own mind was the significance of
22 whether a case went on the child protection track as
23 against the child in need track? In your perception of
24 things, what distinction or difference did that give
25 rise to?
71
1 MS THRIFT: In my mind, if a child presents with injuries,
2 if a child has suffered significant harm or if a child
3 is likely to suffer significant harm, that would warrant
4 a child protection investigation. That is how I knew it
5 to be.
6 MR TURNER: A child in need case, of course, may yield much
7 more than at first meets the eye.
8 MS THRIFT: Absolutely.
9 MR TURNER: Was that a common experience?
10 MS THRIFT: I would not say it was a common experience, but
11 in my personal experience, that happened once or twice
12 with one of my cases, where I would complete the child
13 in need assessment, I would continue to work with the
14 family, and suddenly things were coming up that I was
15 worried about.
16 MR TURNER: What would happen then?
17 MS THRIFT: I remember in that example, with this young
18 girl, I actually had a meeting with Edward Armstrong and
19 Tina Roper. I brought the file in; they asked me to
20 list off the risk factors, that is what I did, and
21 actually the case got transferred for Section 47
22 investigation.
23 MR TURNER: Mr Armstrong painted a rather gloomy picture of
24 the administration and the arrangements. I do not know
25 whether you read --
72
1 MS THRIFT: Yes, I have read his transcript.
2 MR TURNER: Obviously he gave a lot of evidence, but in
3 broad terms, did the picture he painted of
4 Administration square with your experience of it, or
5 not?
6 MS THRIFT: I know the Administration were very busy, and
7 I know they were very stressed, but I always found them
8 extremely helpful. At not one point would I say to
9 them, "Can you help me to do this, I have a lady on the
10 phone."~-- they would always help me out. I never found
11 them so chaotic and horrific that they were not
12 functioning.
13 MR TURNER: And another discouraging image which emerged was
14 of faxes piling up on the floor in effect unattended.
15 Was that your experience or not?
16 MS THRIFT: I do not remember faxes piling up on the floor
17 as such. I remember the fax machine was not near
18 anybody's desk and I do recall, maybe on a daily basis,
19 popping past the fax machine, taking the fax out myself,
20 stapling it and giving it to Pauline Phillips. I know
21 that Murline Morrison, who is our administration worker,
22 was responsible for collecting the faxes and
23 distributing them, but I felt that really on that floor
24 everybody is responsible for getting a fax out of the
25 machine.
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1 MR TURNER: Thank you very much, Miss Thrift.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Turner.
3 Miss Thrift, just a couple of questions please. You
4 said in answer to Mr Turner, on the letter that is in
5 front of you now -- I think you used the phrase, "It
6 does not ring any bells".
7 MS THRIFT: I do not remember it, but I also do not remember
8 taking the referral.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Right, so that in the referral form, which is
10 page 35 in your bundle, you will see that reference to
11 "please see fax"; is that your handwriting?
12 MS THRIFT: Yes, that is my handwriting.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: So what I want to know is why, if you say
14 "please see fax", you have never seen the fax before --
15 MS THRIFT: I am not saying I have never seen it before.
16 I do not remember seeing that fax. The only reason
17 I remember this referral is because it is in my
18 handwriting. I also do not recollect that day taking
19 that referral. What would have happened is, I would
20 have spoken to the referrer from the hospital. They
21 would have said, "I am sending a fax through to you, in
22 relation to this referral". I would have written that
23 in the referral, attached the fax to my referral and
24 given it to Pauline Phillips.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Just so that I understand
74
1 the process that you have described, a telephone call
2 will be made to the One Stop Shop. The One Stop Shop
3 person would decide, on the basis of what the individual
4 said, as to whether or not it was child in need or child
5 protection. If it was child in need, it would go to the
6 duty social worker?
7 MS THRIFT: If it was child in need, the One Stop Shop would
8 take the referral details.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: If it was child protection, it would come to
10 the duty social worker?
11 MS THRIFT: It would come to myself or anybody else on the
12 table.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: What would you have other than what you could
14 take down from the person at the end of the telephone?
15 MS THRIFT: What do you mean?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: What I mean is, you would be solely dependent
17 on what the person the other end said to you.
18 MS THRIFT: The details, and I suppose your personal
19 experience and your knowledge as a social worker, who
20 knows the difference between child protection and child
21 in need.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You might well do that, although let us leave
23 aside as to whether that is a distinction that can be
24 sustained for a minute; you might well do that, the
25 person making the telephone call might not be in
75
1 a position to make such a subtle distinction.
2 MS THRIFT: Well, the person making the telephone call would
3 not make that distinction, they would only be there to
4 give the details. It would be my job to take that
5 referral from them or not.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, your job could only be based upon the
7 best of their understanding of the information that they
8 were giving you.
9 MS THRIFT: I think I am lost here. Is this the person from
10 the One Stop Shop or the person making the referral?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: No, say it is a member of the public making
12 the telephone call. You can only get what you can from
13 this person, who may not have years of experience of
14 social work or, indeed, any other professional~--
15 MS THRIFT: That is correct. They would give me the
16 information, and I would ask as many questions as
17 I thought appropriate, to find as much detail as
18 I could, and then take the referral or the One Stop Shop
19 would take the referral.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: And from that, the whole process would begin,
21 it would either go one direction or another direction?
22 MS THRIFT: That is correct.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Miss Gibson?
24 MS GIBSON: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Mr Turner.
76
1 MR TURNER: I am sorry, sir, I carelessly omitted one point.
2 I wonder if you would indulge me and allow me to ask it.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: No problem.
4 MR TURNER: You told us, Miss Thrift, that you are now in
5 the East Referral and Assessment Team. I think that is
6 part of the new structure, which has relatively recently
7 been implemented, am I right?
8 MS THRIFT: Yes, quite recent.
9 MR TURNER: And the borough is now divided, as I understand
10 it, into two teams; an East Team and a West Team?
11 MS THRIFT: Yes, they are both called Referral and
12 Assessment.
13 MR TURNER: And what particular background has this
14 restructuring been implemented to address?
15 MS THRIFT: I think it would address a problem like this, by
16 which a case is being dealt with by two different teams,
17 which may arise to problems. At the moment, you carry
18 a case from initial referral all the way through,
19 whether it is child in need or child protection issues.
20 I mean, you carry it all the way through.
21 MR TURNER: Is this, in your judgment, better, safer, no
22 real change? How would you characterise it?
23 MS THRIFT: I feel it is a little bit safer actually.
24 MR TURNER: Why?
25 MS THRIFT: There is no situation where I may do a detailed
77
1 assessment and then maybe forget to put in a sentence on
2 my summary or forget to tell the next social worker one
3 small significant thing. Now you have a point where you
4 carry it all the way through, that I have that
5 knowledge, my senior has that knowledge.
6 MR TURNER: Thank you. Thank you, sir.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Turner. Miss Gibson?
8 MS GIBSON: Thank you. I have no further questions.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, we will have a short
10 break. Can we about back by 11.55, please? Thank you.
11 (The witness withdrew)
12 (11.45 am)
13 (A short break)
14 (11.55 am)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Miss Gibson?
16 MS GIBSON: Thank you, sir. The next witness is
17 Elzanne Smit.
18 MS ELZANNE SMIT (sworn)
19 MS GIBSON: Thank you, Ms Smit. Would you give the Inquiry
20 your full name and professional address, please?
21 MS SMIT: My name is Elzanne Smit, and my address is Brent
22 House Annexe, Wembley High Road, Wembley, Middlesex.
23 MS GIBSON: And is it right that you started work initially
24 in the Child in Need Team in Brent in September 1998?
25 MS SMIT: Yes.
78
1 MS GIBSON: And in February 1999, you transferred to the
2 Child Protection Team?
3 MS SMIT: That is right.
4 MS GIBSON: Is there any reason why you transferred teams?
5 MS SMIT: I found that I wanted to develop myself
6 professionally further, and I also had a particular
7 interest in child protection anyway, and that is why
8 I requested the transfer.
9 MS GIBSON: You say that when you moved teams, you received
10 a helpful induction.
11 MS SMIT: I did.
12 MS GIBSON: Could you describe what that consisted of?
13 MS SMIT: It consisted of me mainly shadowing some of the
14 more experienced workers, accompanying them on home
15 visits. I attended strategy meetings, I attended case
16 conferences. I also had several discussions with my
17 senior at the time, who was Michelle Hines, on how the
18 procedures worked in Brent, and I also received a copy
19 of the Child Protection Procedure Manual that I had
20 a chance to read through.
21 MS GIBSON: And what was the position before that, when you
22 joined the Child in Need Team? Did you receive
23 a similar sort of induction?
24 MS SMIT: No. When I joined the Child in Need Team in
25 September 1998, I was the only permanent social worker
79
1 on duty. The rest of the duty social workers consisted
2 of long term workers who came down on a weekly basis.
3 When I started in Brent -- as a social worker in the
4 Child in Need Team, again I had a long discussion with
5 my senior at the time, who was Monica Bridgeman, but the
6 induction was certainly less comprehensive than the one
7 I received in the Child Protection Team.
8 MS GIBSON: And did you find that caused any problems for
9 you when you first started work in the Child in Need
10 Team?
11 MS SMIT: Not more than I think it would have if you start
12 any new job with any other local authority. I had had
13 some experience by that time anyway, so in terms of
14 basic things, it was the same, it was more the structure
15 of Brent and the way the procedures worked that was
16 slightly different than elsewhere.
17 MS GIBSON: Over the course of 1999, the Child in Need Team
18 changed from being one which was just staffed on a rota
19 to being a permanent team.
20 MS SMIT: Yes.
21 MS GIBSON: Do you have any comments on what the effect of
22 that was on the organisation?
23 MS SMIT: I think it works a lot better than it used to.
24 I think when you have a team who is of people who are
25 down there all the time, who have to take responsibility
80
1 for what they are doing and they also would have a lot
2 better knowledge as to how things worked on duty. The
3 way things worked on duty was slightly different than in
4 the long-term team. The pace alone was a lot different
5 to what you would experience in the long-term capacity,
6 but I think certainly for accountability and
7 responsibility, it worked better.
8 MS GIBSON: We will just turn to your work now in the Child
9 Protection Team. What sort of pressures were you
10 working under at that time, in terms of the volume of
11 work?
12 MS SMIT: I do remember that we were very busy. In terms of
13 exactly how many cases I had, I cannot remember.
14 MS GIBSON: You say you were very busy. Is it right that
15 you were short staffed at the time?
16 MS SMIT: We were short staffed. I think what helped a lot
17 was the fact that we were a strong team, and people in
18 the team were very supportive of each other. Although
19 we have had -- for some time we did not have a team
20 manager, at the time when I was working there, we did
21 have a team manager, Tina Roper, who was again very
22 supportive and very clear about what was expected of us,
23 also busy in terms of how we would have a caseload and
24 also have to work on duty, but all in all, though we
25 were short staffed, we did manage as a team.
81
1 MS GIBSON: Did you feel that you were able to do your job
2 as thoroughly as you would have liked, because of the
3 pressure of work that you have described?
4 MS SMIT: Yes.
5 MS GIBSON: Is that yes, that you were able to do it as
6 thoroughly as you would have liked?
7 MS SMIT: Yes, mm.
8 MS GIBSON: And looking now at the administrative side of
9 things, we have heard that there were problems with
10 faxes spilling on to the floor, that was the evidence of
11 Edward Armstrong. Does that accord with what you
12 observed when you were working in the office?
13 MS SMIT: No, I mean, all the outside -- it is quite clear.
14 Apart from the fax -- we do work on three different
15 floors. We have one fax machine on the ground floor,
16 which is where the Child Protection Team and the Child
17 in Need Duty Team are situated. All the faxes, all the
18 referrals would be coming through on that floor. The
19 only time I can ever remember the fax machine being full
20 and having had a number of faxes would be on a Monday
21 morning after the weekend, which would be the out of
22 hours duty team's -- referrals coming through to us.
23 But if they did fall on the floor, they were picked up
24 very quickly after that. We just did not have faxes
25 lying around like that.
82
1 MS GIBSON: Can you assist with whose responsibility it was
2 to distribute faxes which came into the office?
3 MS SMIT: Again, my understanding at that time was that
4 Murline Morrison, as the Admin worker, would pick them
5 up, but, as my colleague said earlier on, all of us --
6 if you saw a fax come through, you picked it up and gave
7 it to the Admin to deal with.
8 MS GIBSON: Would faxes ever get mixed up between the two
9 teams; one team would pick up a fax that was properly
10 destined for the other team?
11 MS SMIT: No, I think because if you are talking on
12 a referral basis the fax that came through on the fax
13 machine at that stage would not have had a status
14 anyway, so they would have gone to -- the admin worker
15 would have passed them on to the seniors in the Child in
16 Need Team and they would then distribute them from then
17 onwards, so they could not really be confused.
18 MS GIBSON: What about the position in relation to
19 administrative checks? We have heard that Admin were
20 short staffed at the time. Were the checks that you
21 would wish to do on a case to find out what previous
22 referrals there had been in respect of a family always
23 done as swiftly as you would have wished?
24 MS SMIT: Yes. I can honestly say that if there was a child
25 protection referral, the checks would have been done
83
1 straight away by Admin. I mean often they would
2 interrupt their own work to do the checks for us if it
3 was an urgent referral. If the case had come through
4 the Child in Need Duty Team, by the time it had come to
5 us, there would be -- the checks would have been
6 completed anyway and the files, if they had been
7 previously involved, would have been attached to that.
8 MS GIBSON: So the Child in Need Team would ensure that was
9 done before passing the case on to you?
10 MS SMIT: The administration staff would. They would do the
11 checks, they would do a print-out. If there was
12 previous files or papers, that would be attached to the
13 referral. If there was information on the microfiche,
14 then that would be passed to us with a print-out, and it
15 would be the social worker in the Child Protection
16 Team's responsibility to read it up.
17 MS GIBSON: What was the position in relation to checks in
18 child in need cases? Perhaps they were not prioritised
19 to the same degree as a child protection case?
20 MS SMIT: Well, I can remember when I worked on the Child in
21 Need Team, again the referrals -- the child in need
22 referrals would be coming through the One Stop Shop.
23 I mean, obviously, because of pressure of work, just as
24 the social workers had to, the Admin staff had to
25 prioritise as well. How quickly those checks happened,
84
1 I am not completely clear, but I know certainly when
2 there was any indication of child protection they would
3 have been done as soon as possible.
4 MS GIBSON: Was there any problem at the time of Victoria's
5 case of passing cases on, firstly from your team to the
6 long-term teams, for pieces of work that might need to
7 be done with a family?
8 MS SMIT: There was a problem passing cases on from Child
9 Protection Team to the long-term teams, yes, I was aware
10 of that.
11 MS GIBSON: Did that mean that you had a glut of cases on
12 your team that you could not -- perhaps you had finished
13 working with them from a child protection perspective,
14 but that you could not move on?
15 MS SMIT: I would not say we would not be able to move them
16 on, they would remain allocated~-- there would always be
17 a worker allocated to a case where a child's name was on
18 the register, or a child looked after. The case was
19 never just managed on a duty system like that. The team
20 manager would also have oversight of that on a regular
21 basis.
22 MS GIBSON: But we know, as you have already said, you were
23 under some pressure of work, a very busy team, and then
24 you still have a backlog of cases waiting to move on
25 elsewhere that you have to, if you like, babysit before
85
1 they can move on to the long-term teams.
2 MS SMIT: I would say part of the pressure was that we had
3 cases allocated to us as well that should have gone on
4 to the long-term team.
5 MS GIBSON: And you would have to be responsible, until they
6 could move on, for looking after those cases?
7 MS SMIT: That is right. I am not able to say exactly how
8 long we would have had to hold on to them, but it was
9 never that long.
10 MS GIBSON: Are you able to help approximately with how long
11 it would be?
12 MS SMIT: To give you some indication, in Brent the
13 procedure is you would take a case to conference and
14 within three months there would have to be a child
15 protection case comments review and in all the time that
16 I worked in the team, I have never had to take a case to
17 the review stage. There would have been enough time to
18 pass it on to the long-term team to be able to at least
19 start a comprehensive assessment.
20 MS GIBSON: And what would be the position in terms of the
21 Child in Need Team passing cases on to the long-term
22 team?
23 MS SMIT: I know they had more problems than we did to pass
24 it on, because child protection was considered as
25 a priority, so they had more problems passing it on to
86
1 long-term than we did.
2 MS GIBSON: I think Mr Armstrong described in his evidence
3 the fact that he would go to meetings with the long-term
4 team and then have to come back to his team still
5 holding the same caseload and not able to move any of
6 those cases on, or not be able to do it very easily.
7 Does that accord with what you were aware of at the
8 time?
9 MS SMIT: I cannot really remember. I was in the Child in
10 Need Team for about four and a half months before
11 I transferred to Child Protection. I mean, a lot of
12 that discussion would have been between managers, but
13 not that I can remember.
14 MS GIBSON: I am just asking you what you may have been
15 aware of working in the same office, what the general
16 atmosphere was like, what the feeling was about cases
17 moving out of the Child in Need Team.
18 MS SMIT: Like I say, the priority was definitely children
19 looked after and child protection cases and there was a
20 problem allocating child in need cases. The complex
21 child in need cases would again be a priority, but they
22 had to prioritise. I know it was a problem though. To
23 what extent I am not clear.
24 MS GIBSON: You received supervision, you say in your
25 statement, every two to three weeks from Michelle Hines.
87
1 Approximately how long would your supervision sessions
2 last for?
3 MS SMIT: Never less than an hour, an hour and a half.
4 MS GIBSON: And what would happen during those supervision
5 sessions? Would you go through all of your cases or
6 just those cases you chose to discuss with Ms Hines?
7 MS SMIT: No, we would be going through all my cases.
8 MS GIBSON: And was it your view that that supervision was
9 effective?
10 MS SMIT: Yes. Also, I mean, apart from the supervision
11 I had with her, which was structured supervision, there
12 was a lot of informal supervision in the team as well.
13 MS GIBSON: You say at paragraph 7 that the One Stop Shop
14 would take child in need referrals, and that the Child
15 in Need Team would take child protection referrals. Was
16 that always the case, or was there any departure from
17 that arrangement at times?
18 MS SMIT: Do you mean was it strictly that the Child in Need
19 Team would be taking --
20 MS GIBSON: Yes. For example, what would happen if
21 a referral came in late into the office and there was
22 not anyone in the Child in Need Team to take the
23 referral?
24 MS SMIT: I certainly remember occasions where I had taken
25 child protection referrals while I was working in the
88
1 Child Protection Team.
2 MS GIBSON: So it did not necessarily always go through the
3 Child in Need Team before it got to you?
4 MS SMIT: The procedure certainly was that the One Stop Shop
5 should take the child in need referrals and the Child in
6 Need Team would take the child protection referrals, but
7 there certainly were occasions where I have taken and my
8 colleagues as well have taken child protection referrals
9 in the Child Protection Team.
10 MS GIBSON: So is it your evidence that the One Stop Shop,
11 who would take child in need referrals -- it would be
12 them who would decide the category of the case when the
13 call came in?
14 MS SMIT: I do not think they would -- naturally, they would
15 have to screen the calls, and make a decision as to
16 whether they would pass it on to Children's Social Work,
17 or whether they would take that referral themselves, so
18 I think -- I do also know that they would also phone us
19 up if they had any questions or queries about whether
20 a case was child protection or not. They would ring up
21 and speak to a duty social worker and ask their view,
22 but I think at the point of referral, they would be the
23 people to decide whether it should be the Child in Need
24 Team who takes the referral or the One Stop Shop.
25 MS GIBSON: Just looking now at what would happen when you
89
1 received a referral, we know in this case that you got
2 the referral from Kate Thrift at 4.55 in the afternoon.
3 Can you help with whether that referral came straight
4 from Kate Thrift, or did it go through managers on this
5 occasion?
6 MS SMIT: I cannot remember. I mean, what I do remember is
7 how it would normally have worked; Edward Armstrong
8 would have had to have seen the referral to have signed
9 it. It would have gone to the senior first, who was
10 Michelle Hines, who was on duty that day, and she would
11 delegate the task to me to do, to carry out.
12 MS GIBSON: So do you have any actual recollection of what
13 happened in this case? If you do not, please say so.
14 MS SMIT: No.
15 MS GIBSON: And now when you receive the referral, whose
16 responsibility would it be for ensuring that admin
17 checks were carried out, to see if there were any other
18 contacts with the family?
19 MS SMIT: Before the referral would come to us, the checks
20 should have been done, should have been carried out by
21 the administration staff. I mean, the duty manager
22 would have to action a referral and part of his
23 actioning would be to check that the checks had been
24 carried out by the admin staff, because the format is
25 that we have the blue form that Kate took the referral
90
1 on; there is also what we call a pink and a yellow, and
2 the yellow one is where the administration staff would
3 tick off to say if they had checked the case and what if
4 anything was known to social services before. I mean,
5 we would expect to receive the blue copy of the
6 referral, as well as the two other papers attached to
7 it.
8 MS GIBSON: Can you help with whether you received those
9 pink and yellow forms in this case?
10 MS SMIT: I do not remember.
11 MS GIBSON: Because it seems that on 15th July, the
12 following day, a match was made by Martin Punch relating
13 to the earlier anonymous referral. Do you know if you
14 saw that at the time?
15 MS SMIT: I definitely did not. What I do know is when
16 I was asked to do the checks with Ealing, I had no
17 knowledge as to whether the case was known to us before
18 or not. It was not a discussion I had with anyone at
19 the time. It was very late in the day and it was
20 important that I speak to Ealing as soon as possible,
21 before their offices closed.
22 MS GIBSON: So is it possible in this case that no checks
23 were carried out at that late stage in the afternoon,
24 before you started dealing with the case and making
25 phone calls?
91
1 MS SMIT: I would be surprised, only because my experience
2 has always been that the checks would be carried out as
3 part of that initial assessment anyway.
4 MS GIBSON: If you did not receive the pink and yellow forms
5 you have described, whose responsibility would it be to
6 make sure checks were done?
7 MS SMIT: I would say the social worker who works on the
8 case.
9 MS GIBSON: So that would be you in this particular
10 instance?
11 MS SMIT: Again, I am not sure about the order in which we
12 received the forms. I would, certainly when I have
13 worked in the team, I would make sure that the checks
14 are being carried out. Whether they were done that day
15 or not, I am not sure. I cannot even remember if
16 I received the pink or the yellow form. Again, as the
17 social worker on duty and not a senior -- I mean all
18 action that I would have to do would come via the senior
19 social worker anyway.
20 MS GIBSON: We know you were working together with
21 Michelle Hines; is it right that she was giving you
22 directions for what to do?
23 MS SMIT: Yes.
24 MS GIBSON: You telephoned Ealing, we know; can you assist
25 at all with where the reference to Ealing came from on
92
1 the referral form that Kate Thrift filled in?
2 MS SMIT: No, I have nothing to add to what she said.
3 MS GIBSON: If we could have a look at your file recording,
4 volume 5, page 60. Look at the document there; is that
5 a copy of your file recording?
6 MS SMIT: Yes.
7 MS GIBSON: You say that the "case was never opened to
8 Ealing in a social services capacity, mum had applied
9 for asylum and was seen on 30th June. She was not
10 entitled to benefits", and so on. You say that the case
11 was not opened to Ealing; did you enquire with Ealing
12 about what their contact with the family had been?
13 MS SMIT: I would have asked them. The first thing we would
14 want to establish was whether it was an open case for
15 them or not and in order for us to have as much
16 background information as possible, I would have asked
17 them what the nature of their involvement was.
18 MS GIBSON: And can you assist with whether the person you
19 spoke to at Ealing was able to actually give you very
20 much information about the case?
21 MS SMIT: If I remember correctly, the person I spoke to did
22 not have much -- did not have anything more than what
23 I have put down here, but she did say that someone would
24 ring me back in the morning who had more knowledge of
25 the case.
93
1 (12.15 pm)
2 MS GIBSON: Did you not think it would have been appropriate
3 to take the name of the person you spoke to at Ealing on
4 that occasion, just for the completeness of the records?
5 MS SMIT: Yes, absolutely.
6 MS GIBSON: So you accept that is a shortcoming?
7 MS SMIT: Mm.
8 MS GIBSON: Just looking again at that recording, would it
9 not have been appropriate at that stage to ask for that
10 person to actually get hold of the file, to see what the
11 last contact with the family had been, because it might
12 have been information of significance?
13 MS SMIT: I mean, again, I cannot remember what the other
14 person said to me or what not, and I cannot remember
15 what I asked. We wanted to know at that point -- the
16 information I have got down there is as much as she was
17 able to provide to me. She was quite clear that she
18 would ask someone to ring me back the next day and
19 I accepted that.
20 MS GIBSON: It would have been possible for you to insist on
21 more information being obtained; that person could have
22 gone and got the file and checked for you?
23 MS SMIT: I could have, but whether I did or not, I do not
24 know.
25 MS GIBSON: Turning now to your involvement on 15th July, if
94
1 you would look at page 57 -- do you have that? That is
2 your recording for that day.
3 MS SMIT: Yes.
4 MS GIBSON: Did you record all of the information that you
5 were given by Pamela Fortune there, or is that simply
6 a summary?
7 MS SMIT: I would imagine that is all of the information
8 that she gave me.
9 MS GIBSON: Are you able to assist now with what
10 Pamela Fortune told you about the case?
11 MS SMIT: More than what is here?
12 MS GIBSON: Yes.
13 MS SMIT: What is written here, as far as I can remember, is
14 what she told me.
15 MS GIBSON: Do you have any recollection of that
16 conversation with Pamela Fortune now?
17 MS SMIT: No.
18 MS GIBSON: Did you have a lot of contact with Social
19 Services in Ealing? Was it fairly frequent for you to
20 be in contact with them to discuss cases, and for cases
21 to be transferred between Ealing and Brent?
22 MS SMIT: Not Ealing specifically, no.
23 MS GIBSON: Were you aware of any problems when a case came,
24 for example in this case, where a child was placed by
25 one borough in your borough; any disputes about who
95
1 would have case responsibility?
2 MS SMIT: In my experience, if a family or a child is placed
3 in Brent by another local authority, that local
4 authority would hold case responsibility. They would
5 inform us if it was a child that was on the register, if
6 it was a child that was looked after or a child subject
7 to a care order. We would be available to assist with
8 any emergencies that might come up, and we would adopt
9 our child protection procedures to that.
10 As to whether -- if it is a case of a family who is
11 going to be living in Brent permanently, that would
12 usually be a discussion between the team managers of the
13 different local authorities as to who would hold case
14 responsibility, but it is something that does come up,
15 and that could be a problem, but I mean, I think we are
16 quite clear that if a child from another local authority
17 is placed in our borough, we would assist if there is an
18 emergency and we would do monitoring as well if that is
19 requested, but ultimately, that decision would be
20 between the team managers.
21 MS GIBSON: But can you recall if there were ever any
22 instances of friction, say, between boroughs about who
23 would hold case responsibility, or with scarce
24 resources, some dispute about who was holding the case?
25 Is that something that you recall or not?
96
1 MS SMIT: No. I mean, like I say, we were quite clear as to
2 what our responsibilities would be and what not. If
3 there were discussions like that, it would be between
4 the team managers. The social workers would not get
5 involved in that.
6 MS GIBSON: And can you assist finally with what would be
7 the arrangements in respect of handing a case such as
8 this back to the Child in Need Team? Was there
9 a formalised process for doing that?
10 MS SMIT: The only process there was is that the social
11 worker or the senior social worker would have
12 a discussion with the Child Protection Team manager, who
13 would then have a discussion with the team manager of
14 Child in Need, Eddie Armstrong, and then an agreement
15 would be reached that way.
16 MS GIBSON: Thank you very much, Ms Smit. If you would wait
17 there?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms Gibson. Mr Turner, please?
19 MR TURNER: Ms Smit, could we look again just for a moment
20 at 5/057, please? That is your note of the 15th July
21 conversation with Ms Fortune. I would like you to look
22 at the final paragraph, please; read it to us.
23 MS SMIT: "She [meaning mother, Ms Kouao] plans to stay in
24 UK. Asked Pamela to send a copy of the assessment. She
25 agreed to get it done by next week."
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1 MR TURNER: Two things arise from that. First of all, what
2 was in your mind as you recorded the phrase "copy of the
3 assessment"?
4 MS SMIT: You mean, what was my understanding of that?
5 MR TURNER: Yes.
6 MS SMIT: My understanding was that because they were not
7 entitled to benefits and could not receive a service
8 from the Housing Department, they were referred to
9 Social Services to assess their housing needs, but there
10 was a written document she was able to pass on to Brent
11 Social Services.
12 MR TURNER: Ms Fortune's recollection was a little less
13 precise than that. She recalls you simply asking, in
14 a more general sense, for information.
15 MS SMIT: Well, I disagree with that.
16 MR TURNER: Right. When you say, secondly, "She agreed to
17 get it done by next week", what is in your mind there?
18 MS SMIT: Meaning she would ensure that we would have
19 received it by the next week.
20 MR TURNER: So get it sent rather than perhaps get it done?
21 MS SMIT: Get it sent.
22 MR TURNER: It may be an imprecision of language, but I just
23 want to be clear that that was what was in your mind.
24 MS SMIT: Yes.
25 MR TURNER: She thought that you had been sent Ealing's
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1 letter to Kouao of 30th June. Do you remember receiving
2 any letter from Ealing, as part of --
3 MS SMIT: Were we supposed to have received a letter before
4 our involvement or after?
5 MR TURNER: At some point after this conversation, she
6 I think says that a copy of the Ealing letter to Kouao
7 of 30th June was sent.
8 MS SMIT: After my conversation with her that day, I had no
9 further involvement, so I would not know.
10 MR TURNER: Right. On 15th July, you were, I think, working
11 with Ms Hines.
12 MS SMIT: Yes.
13 MR TURNER: On this case or on this and other cases?
14 MS SMIT: I cannot recall.
15 MR TURNER: Do you remember whether or not a telephone call
16 was received by Ms Hines from Dr Schwartz?
17 MS SMIT: I was in the office and I was -- actually where my
18 desk was at the time, it was next to Michelle's desk.
19 I have no recollection that a phone call like that came
20 through to the office. If Michelle did have that
21 conversation with Dr Schwartz, she certainly did not
22 relay it to me.
23 MR TURNER: Thank you. You told the Inquiry a moment or two
24 ago that at the time, middle of 1999, the Child
25 Protection Team was a very strong team.
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1 MS SMIT: Yes.
2 MR TURNER: What did you see its strength to be?
3 MS SMIT: There was very experienced workers in the team,
4 people who have had lots of experience, people who --
5 its knowledge about risk factors and risk assessments
6 were -- well, I was very confident in their assessment,
7 as people who had worked very hard. The team was very
8 supportive to each other. We had a very good
9 relationship with other agencies, including the Police
10 Child Protection Team and Central Middlesex Hospital.
11 It was also quite a stable team. The staff turnover,
12 compared to the rest of Brent at the time, was very low,
13 it was very stable.
14 MR TURNER: You have told us that your managers were
15 supportive; were they also effective in managing you?
16 MS SMIT: Yes. Tina Roper was an excellent manager.
17 MR TURNER: You are, I think, now part of the new
18 arrangements, the unified team that the Inquiry has just
19 heard about.
20 MS SMIT: Yes.
21 MR TURNER: Better, worse, different?
22 MS SMIT: It is different and it is better.
23 MR TURNER: How is it, first of all, different?
24 MS SMIT: It is different because the procedure is
25 different, in that as Kate said, we would be working on
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1 a case right from the day that it comes in. I mean, if
2 you are on duty -- we still work on a duty rota basis,
3 but we are also implementing the new assessment
4 framework. It is different because there is more
5 consistency. You are able to see something through,
6 more so than under the previous system.
7 MR TURNER: And in terms of child safety, and the seeing
8 through of these anxious cases, how is it better?
9 MS SMIT: Again, I would think it is to do with the
10 consistency. If you start to work on a case early, you
11 get a good feel for it. You also are there from the day
12 that it comes in, you have built up a relationship with
13 the family, you have built up a relationship with other
14 professionals. I think you are more accountable as
15 well, because it is not passed over between different
16 team members. It is something that you will be
17 ultimately responsible for.
18 MR TURNER: Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Turner.
20 Ms Smit, just a couple of questions, if I may, just
21 for clarification. You understand that it is somewhat
22 difficult for us to follow -- it is now said, although
23 I think this is contrary to my recollection of what
24 Samantha Hunt said, that the One Stop Shop takes
25 referrals for a child in need, but a child protection
|
