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Archived Transcript for 8 October 2001: Pages
1 to 50
1
1 Monday, 8th October 2001
2 (10.00 am)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Mr Garnham?
5 MR GARNHAM: Good morning, sir. Before we begin the
6 evidence today, can I indicate, sir, the way in which we
7 propose dealing with the evidence from Dr Charlotte
8 Dempster? She is a witness who we have timetabled to
9 call on 12th October. She lives and works in
10 New Zealand. The evidence that she can give that will
11 assist the Inquiry is important but relatively short in
12 likely duration and is of a comparatively narrow
13 compass. We have as a result been giving some
14 consideration to how best to adduce her evidence before
15 you.
16 Sir, what we propose to do is this, and I should say
17 that this has the consent of Dr Dempster and her legal
18 representatives: we propose, sir, that on Friday,
19 12th October, a videolink will be set up between a video
20 suite in an adjacent building to this building and at
21 a venue in Wellington, New Zealand. We will then invite
22 you, sir, with your assessors, together with counsel to
23 the Inquiry, solicitor and secretary to the Inquiry and
24 the legal representatives of Dr Dempster, to gather at
25 7.45 am in Tavistock House, the building next door to
2
1 this one.
2 At that time, which will then be 7.45 in the evening
3 in New Zealand the same day, Dr Dempster will be
4 available at the other end of the videolink. Questions
5 will then be put to Dr Dempster by me in the same way as
6 with witnesses who are present here. There will be an
7 opportunity for the legal advisor to Dr Dempster also to
8 put questions at the end; again, the parallel of the
9 situations that happen here.
10 That exchange will be videotaped and the video will
11 then be played here on our screens at a time convenient
12 to you, sir, shortly, we hope, thereafter. That will
13 enable other parties to this Inquiry, and the public and
14 press, to hear the evidence that Dr Dempster is able to
15 give.
16 Consistent with the way we have approached the
17 taking of evidence generally, if any interested parties
18 wish me to put questions to Dr Dempster, I would be
19 grateful to have a note of that in advance. Given the
20 nature of the link, and the time at which it is to take
21 place, I would quite appreciate it if it was a little
22 before 7.45 on 12th October.
23 Sir, we are drawing that to your attention now
24 firstly to ensure that you have no objection to it, and
25 secondly to make sure the interested parties know what
3
1 our plans are.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr Garnham. I have no
3 objection.
4 MR GARNHAM: Sir, that being so, I will ask Mr Sheldon to
5 call our first two witnesses today.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Sheldon, thank you.
7 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much, sir. Could I ask
8 Mrs Mensah to step forward, please?
9 MRS PAT MENSAH (sworn)
10 MR SHELDON: Please have a seat, Mrs Mensah. Good morning.
11 MRS MENSAH: Good morning.
12 MR SHELDON: Would you confirm your full name, please?
13 MRS MENSAH: I am Pat Mensah.
14 MR SHELDON: And is it right, Mrs Mensah, that you prepared
15 a statement for use by this Inquiry?
16 MRS MENSAH: I did.
17 MR SHELDON: And I wonder if a copy of that statement could
18 be put in front of you. It is not the CPS statement, it
19 is the Inquiry statement which is in bundle 7, starting
20 at page 126.401, sir.
21 Sir, also for your note, Mrs Mensah made a statement
22 to the Crown Prosecution Service for use at the criminal
23 trial. A copy of that was not in our original bundle,
24 but I hope that copies have been circulated to the
25 interested parties this morning, and I hope that you
4
1 also have a copy in front of you. Also, for your note,
2 Mrs Mensah did give evidence at the Central Criminal
3 Court, and a transcript of that evidence is in
4 bundle 48, between pages 155 and 213.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
6 MR SHELDON: Mrs Mensah, could you tell us what your
7 occupation is, please?
8 MRS MENSAH: I am a pastor.
9 MR SHELDON: Sorry, could I ask you to keep your voice up
10 a little bit, or possibly lean a bit closer to the
11 microphone?
12 MRS MENSAH: Right.
13 MR SHELDON: You are a pastor. Did you undertake any
14 training for that job?
15 MRS MENSAH: I did.
16 MR SHELDON: And what did that training consist of?
17 MRS MENSAH: Well, it was a one year course at Spurgens
18 College(?) in South Norwood.
19 MR SHELDON: And did you obtain a professional qualification
20 of some sort as a result of that?
21 MRS MENSAH: I would not say it is a professional
22 qualification.
23 MR SHELDON: But it is a qualification, nonetheless?
24 MRS MENSAH: It is, yes.
25 MR SHELDON: And what is it called?
5
1 MRS MENSAH: (inaudible) Certificate in Pastoral Studies.
2 MR SHELDON: In which part of London is your church?
3 MRS MENSAH: North-west London.
4 MR SHELDON: And what denomination of church is it?
5 MRS MENSAH: It is a Baptist church.
6 MR SHELDON: But I am right in thinking that you accept
7 people from all branches of Christianity to worship with
8 you, is that right?
9 MRS MENSAH: We do.
10 MR SHELDON: I would like to deal first of all with the
11 first time that you met the lady Marie-Therese Kouao,
12 and to deal first of all with the date of that meeting.
13 You say in that statement, paragraph 2, that your
14 recollection is it was in June or July of 1999; is that
15 right?
16 MRS MENSAH: Somewhere around that time, yes.
17 MR SHELDON: I would like you to have a look at the copy of
18 the statement you made to the Crown Prosecution Service;
19 perhaps a copy of that can be put in front of you,
20 because in that statement, you are able to be a little
21 more precise about that date. I would just like you to
22 comment on that.
23 If you have a look at that statement, about six
24 lines down, you will see a sentence starting:
25 "On 16th May 1999, a woman came into a prayer
6
1 meeting ..."
2 It seemed to be the case that then you were able to
3 be precise that it was 16th May.
4 MRS MENSAH: That is right.
5 MR SHELDON: Is there any reason why you would have been
6 wrong about that?
7 MRS MENSAH: I think the first time I had to give
8 a statement, I had the documents with me. She did fill
9 in a form when she visited the church, so I could give
10 a precise ...
11 MR SHELDON: I see. So that is how you were able to do it
12 with such precision?
13 MRS MENSAH: That is right.
14 MR SHELDON: And although you in your more recent statement
15 have said June or July, that 16th May date is likely to
16 be the right one, is it?
17 MRS MENSAH: I would say so, yes.
18 MR SHELDON: What were the circumstances of her first visit
19 to the church? Was there a service going on?
20 MRS MENSAH: When she first visited, I was on maternity
21 leave, so I did not see her when she first came. I only
22 saw her after I had come -- resumed work, yes.
23 MR SHELDON: I see. So you first encountered her at the
24 church?
25 MRS MENSAH: I did.
7
1 MR SHELDON: And can you remember when that was?
2 MRS MENSAH: Round about May, yes. Just round about May.
3 MR SHELDON: And did she come on her own, or was she
4 accompanied by anyone?
5 MRS MENSAH: She came with her little girl, Anna.
6 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that your first
7 impression of the little girl who we now know as
8 Victoria was that she was unattractive. Do you mean
9 physically?
10 MRS MENSAH: She was physically unattractive, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: So you mean that she was not a very pretty
12 little girl.
13 MRS MENSAH: Well, in comparison to other girls that I have
14 seen around her age, I would come to that conclusion.
15 MR SHELDON: I see. And you also said that she looked a bit
16 like a boy.
17 MRS MENSAH: She did.
18 MR SHELDON: What made her look like a boy?
19 MRS MENSAH: She had very short hair, and looked a bit
20 masculine, I would say, yes.
21 MR SHELDON: Can you remember how she was dressed on that
22 occasion?
23 MRS MENSAH: She had a dress on and tights and a jacket,
24 yes.
25 MR SHELDON: You also say in paragraph 3 of your statement
8
1 that "she just did not look right to me, not normal".
2 Can you describe what you mean by that?
3 MRS MENSAH: With regards to her appearance, and in
4 comparison with other girls, and her short hair and her
5 general look just did not look right to me.
6 MR SHELDON: Was there anything about her behaviour that you
7 regarded as unusual?
8 MRS MENSAH: She was quite reserved, but I would not say
9 that was unusual. I think because she did not speak
10 English and spoke French, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: You also say in your statement that you were
12 shown a photograph of her, in which she looked quite
13 different from the way she looked to you.
14 MRS MENSAH: Distinctively, yes.
15 MR SHELDON: And in the photograph, she did not have marks
16 on her face.
17 MRS MENSAH: Well, I would say she had long hair, and she
18 had more of a gentle, soft look, I would say. It is
19 quite difficult to describe, but that is what I can say.
20 MR SHELDON: Did she have marks on her face when you first
21 saw her?
22 MRS MENSAH: I would say scars, not marks -- well, something
23 that has been there for some time, yes.
24 MR SHELDON: How many?
25 MRS MENSAH: I did not count them.
9
1 MR SHELDON: Lots, or one or two?
2 MRS MENSAH: Probably one or two.
3 MR SHELDON: Can you remember whereabouts on her face they
4 were?
5 MRS MENSAH: No, I cannot.
6 MR SHELDON: Did you form any view as to what might have
7 caused them?
8 MRS MENSAH: No.
9 MR SHELDON: They did not look like the sort of scars that
10 you have seen regularly before?
11 MRS MENSAH: No.
12 MR SHELDON: Did you ask what had caused them?
13 MRS MENSAH: No, not initially.
14 MR SHELDON: Did you speak to Marie-Therese Kouao on this
15 occasion?
16 MRS MENSAH: I did, yes.
17 MR SHELDON: Did she tell you anything about herself?
18 MRS MENSAH: Yes, she did.
19 MR SHELDON: What did she tell you?
20 MRS MENSAH: She said she had come from France to England to
21 learn English, just to secure her job.
22 MR SHELDON: Did she tell you what her job was that she
23 needed to secure?
24 MRS MENSAH: I think she said she worked at an airport.
25 That is all she said.
10
1 MR SHELDON: Did she tell you where she was living at that
2 stage?
3 MRS MENSAH: In France or in England?
4 MR SHELDON: In England.
5 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: And where was that?
7 MRS MENSAH: I think number 6 Nicoll Road in Harlesden.
8 MR SHELDON: And after that initial meeting, she came to
9 your church on several occasions in the future.
10 MRS MENSAH: Right.
11 MR SHELDON: Are you able to estimate how many times in
12 total she came to visit your church?
13 MRS MENSAH: No, she was not regular, she was quite
14 inconsistent.
15 MR SHELDON: Can you remember when her last visit was?
16 MRS MENSAH: I would think December of 2000, or the year
17 before, I am not sure about the dates.
18 MR SHELDON: There came a time I think during the summer
19 when she told you she had gone to live with a man called
20 Carl Manning.
21 MRS MENSAH: That is right.
22 MR SHELDON: After that, was there a lengthy period during
23 which she did not come to your church any more?
24 MRS MENSAH: There was.
25 MR SHELDON: So she came not regularly but now and again
11
1 between May and when she moved in with Carl Manning, and
2 then there was a break before the visit in Christmas
3 that you speak about in your statement.
4 Did you also speak to her on the phone from time to
5 time?
6 MRS MENSAH: I did, yes.
7 MR SHELDON: I think the way you describe it when you gave
8 evidence to the criminal trial was that throughout that
9 summer of 1999, you had reasonably regular contact with
10 her, either by phone or her coming in; does that accord
11 with your recollection now?
12 MRS MENSAH: Well, I do not know what you mean by
13 reasonable, the length -- well, I did speak to her from
14 time to time, but not so many times.
15 MR SHELDON: And when she used to phone you up, was that
16 just for generally support and advice?
17 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: You provided money for her as well, did you
19 not?
20 MRS MENSAH: We did, yes.
21 MR SHELDON: Can you remember how much?
22 MRS MENSAH: I would say less than £200.
23 MR SHELDON: If I can turn now to the things that you
24 discussed with her, either during your meetings or
25 during her telephone calls, firstly the problems that
12
1 she was having with Victoria.
2 MRS MENSAH: Right.
3 MR SHELDON: She told you, did she not, that Victoria was
4 soiling the bedding and the seats where they lived, and
5 that she was putting excrement in the food?
6 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: Did Marie-Therese have an explanation for why
8 Victoria was doing that?
9 MRS MENSAH: She said she had been inflicting wounds on
10 herself, pouring hot water and defecating, and she asked
11 her why she did that and she said the witchcraft in her
12 told her to do that. That was her response.
13 MR SHELDON: So Victoria had told Marie-Therese that it was
14 witchcraft?
15 MRS MENSAH: That is right.
16 MR SHELDON: What was your reaction to that?
17 MRS MENSAH: It was unusual to me, because I have not
18 encountered such a case before, so all I could say to
19 her was to come to church and we will pray with you.
20 That is what I could say to her.
21 MR SHELDON: Did you suggest that perhaps Victoria might
22 need a doctor?
23 MRS MENSAH: Well I suggested she took her to the hospital
24 if she was unwell, or sought some professional advice
25 from social services, which she said she did.
13
1 MR SHELDON: So you suggested to her that she should go to
2 the hospital?
3 MRS MENSAH: I did.
4 MR SHELDON: And to social services?
5 MRS MENSAH: That is right.
6 MR SHELDON: Do you know whether she took that advice or
7 not?
8 MRS MENSAH: She said she did. As to whether she did or
9 not, I do not know.
10 MR SHELDON: Did she tell you what the hospital or social
11 services had said to her?
12 MRS MENSAH: I think she said the social services said she
13 had to go back to France, because there was no reason
14 for her to live here in such an inconvenient situation,
15 and I did ask -- advise her to do the same, if they
16 would not help her.
17 MR SHELDON: You said that apart from the incontinence and
18 the defecating in the house, that Marie-Therese told you
19 Victoria was injuring herself too; is that right?
20 MRS MENSAH: She did.
21 MR SHELDON: That she burnt herself?
22 MRS MENSAH: Poured hot water on herself, yes.
23 MR SHELDON: And that she cut herself as well?
24 MRS MENSAH: I am not sure if she used the word "cut", but
25 she hurt herself with whatever.
14
1 MR SHELDON: Did you see marks on Victoria during that
2 summer 1999, other than the scars to the face that you
3 have already described?
4 MRS MENSAH: That was when I visited Anna -- Marie in the
5 flat, yes -- in Carl's flat.
6 MR SHELDON: That was early the next year, was it not?
7 MRS MENSAH: I am not sure about the times, but that was the
8 only time I went to see them in the flat.
9 MR SHELDON: But during the course of her visits to your
10 church, during the summer of 1999, did you see any
11 particular injuries or marks on Victoria?
12 MRS MENSAH: No.
13 MR SHELDON: Just the scars to the face that you have
14 already described?
15 MRS MENSAH: That is right.
16 MR SHELDON: And during the course of those visits, during
17 summer 1999, did Victoria exhibit any particular
18 behavioural problems that you noticed?
19 MRS MENSAH: No.
20 MR SHELDON: So were you surprised to hear from
21 Marie-Therese that she was behaving in this way at home?
22 MRS MENSAH: Yes -- well, I would not say surprised, but
23 I just listened to her.
24 MR SHELDON: Marie-Therese also told you about the problems
25 she was having with her accommodation at Nicoll Road,
15
1 did she not?
2 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
3 MR SHELDON: Did you ever go and see her there, at Nicoll
4 Road?
5 MRS MENSAH: At the hostel? No, not -- I went to the
6 hostel, but I did not go into her room, just around the
7 hostel.
8 MR SHELDON: Did she tell you what problems she was
9 experiencing living there?
10 MRS MENSAH: She said the room was too small, the place was
11 untidy. It just was not the right place for her,
12 because there were other people living there who were
13 not well behaved.
14 MR SHELDON: So you realised that her accommodation was
15 poor. You knew that money was tight, presumably.
16 MRS MENSAH: Definitely.
17 MR SHELDON: And you knew she was having serious trouble
18 with Victoria. Did you ask her why she had left her
19 good job in France and her children to come over to
20 England to live like that?
21 MRS MENSAH: As I said earlier, she said she did not want to
22 lose her job and a reason for being here was to study
23 English, so that she could go back and continue with her
24 job.
25 MR SHELDON: Before we move on to the two occasions
16
1 significantly later on where you saw Victoria, at that
2 stage, in the summer of 1999, did you have any concerns
3 that Victoria was being abused, either physically or
4 emotionally, by Marie-Therese?
5 MRS MENSAH: Not at all, no.
6 MR SHELDON: You have said that you were told later on that
7 Marie-Therese and Victoria had moved in with a man
8 called Carl Manning, and I believe it is right that you
9 met Carl Manning on two occasions.
10 MRS MENSAH: Yes, or probably more.
11 MR SHELDON: Well, you deal with two in your statement, one
12 occasion when they all came to your church round about
13 Christmas, and a second occasion when you went to
14 Somerset Gardens and saw them all there. Do you recall
15 any other occasions upon which you met him?
16 MRS MENSAH: I think they have been to the church probably
17 a couple of times with Carl, before I went to see them
18 in the flat, yes.
19 MR SHELDON: And before the visit near Christmas?
20 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: Right. And what was your impression of him?
22 MRS MENSAH: He was quiet, did not say much. A young man to
23 give somebody a place to stay, I thought. It was very
24 kind of nothing -- there was not any sign of him being
25 an abuser or anything of the sort.
17
1 MR SHELDON: I think you make the point in your statement
2 that it was not until significantly later that you
3 realised that he and Marie-Therese were having
4 a relationship.
5 MRS MENSAH: That is right.
6 MR SHELDON: You thought it was simply an act of kindness of
7 his part to let them stay with him.
8 MRS MENSAH: I did.
9 MR SHELDON: How did he behave towards Victoria?
10 MRS MENSAH: He did not seem to say much to her, because she
11 did not speak English, so I think he related more to
12 Marie than the little girl.
13 MR SHELDON: Paragraph 11 of your statement; you say there
14 that after they moved, that is Victoria and
15 Marie-Therese, they came to the church occasionally and
16 they came to the church at Christmas, and you think that
17 that was the last time that they came before you went to
18 see them at Carl's flat. I just want to confirm the
19 date of that visit, because in paragraph 11 of your
20 statement, you say that it was just before Christmas or
21 round about Christmas. During the course of your
22 evidence at the trial, you have said it was well before
23 Christmas. Are you able to remember?
24 MRS MENSAH: I am not, no.
25 MR SHELDON: Was Victoria there on that occasion?
18
1 MRS MENSAH: What occasion?
2 MR SHELDON: The occasion you are referring to in
3 paragraph 11 of your statement.
4 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: How did she seem to you?
6 MRS MENSAH: Victoria?
7 MR SHELDON: Yes.
8 MRS MENSAH: Well, Anna -- I call her Anna -- she was quiet.
9 Is it before I went to visit them in the flat, or at the
10 flat?
11 MR SHELDON: Let us look at paragraph 11 of your statement:
12 "After they moved, they would come to our church
13 occasionally to visit. They came to the church at
14 Christmas. I think this was the last time they came
15 before I went to see her at Carl's flat. I spoke with
16 them a little after the service."
17 That is the occasion I am asking you about. You
18 said Victoria was there and I asked you how she seemed
19 to you on that occasion.
20 MRS MENSAH: I get a bit confused when you use the name
21 Victoria, because I know her as Anna, so it is taking me
22 a while to answer you. She was all right, and as
23 I said, she keeps herself to herself.
24 MR SHELDON: Was the problem of her incontinence around the
25 house discussed on that occasion?
19
1 MRS MENSAH: No.
2 MR SHELDON: Did you notice any marks or injuries on her
3 that you had not noticed during the course of the summer
4 visits?
5 MRS MENSAH: No.
6 MR SHELDON: Did you notice anything unusual about the
7 behaviour of Marie-Therese towards the little girl?
8 MRS MENSAH: No.
9 MR SHELDON: During the course of the trial, it was put to
10 you that the relationship between Marie-Therese and
11 Victoria was a loving relationship between mother and
12 daughter, or at least that is how it appeared to you.
13 Does that remain your recollection?
14 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: And so throughout the time that you saw them
16 together, you noticed nothing unusual or disturbing
17 about that relationship?
18 MRS MENSAH: Not at all.
19 MR SHELDON: Let us move on to the visit that you made to
20 Somerset Gardens. In your statement, you say that it
21 was in January/February time. Again, I know it is
22 difficult to be precise after this period of time, but
23 during the course of your evidence at the trial -- and
24 for your note, sir, it is volume 48, page 205 -- you do
25 put a precise date on it and you say it was
20
1 12th February.
2 MRS MENSAH: Right, because probably it was very fresh in my
3 memory, then.
4 MR SHELDON: So the date you gave at the trial is probably
5 the more reliable one?
6 MRS MENSAH: I would go for that, yes.
7 MR SHELDON: That visit was prompted by a call from
8 Marie-Therese saying that Victoria was not very well,
9 was it not?
10 MRS MENSAH: That is right.
11 MR SHELDON: Was the visit prearranged?
12 MRS MENSAH: No, I telephoned her to say if she is not fine,
13 I would come and see her, so I went that morning.
14 MR SHELDON: Did you warn her that you were coming to see
15 her?
16 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: Did you tell her the time and the day that you
18 were intending to come on?
19 MRS MENSAH: I told her the time, but I think I arrived
20 before she expected me.
21 MR SHELDON: But she was expecting you that day?
22 MRS MENSAH: That day, yes.
23 MR SHELDON: Who was in the flat when you arrived?
24 MRS MENSAH: Carl was there, Carl and Anna.
25 MR SHELDON: Did you go alone, or were you accompanied by
21
1 anyone?
2 MRS MENSAH: I was accompanied by a friend.
3 MR SHELDON: Before we move on to what you saw and what was
4 said, I wonder if you could just describe the flat for
5 us, and firstly the size of it.
6 MRS MENSAH: Right. It looks too small for three people to
7 share, so I was quite surprised that the three of them
8 had been living in that bedsit for that long. I was
9 horrified, really.
10 MR SHELDON: Did you remember what furniture there was in
11 there?
12 MRS MENSAH: I think it had a sofa and a bed and a small
13 kitchen.
14 MR SHELDON: Did you notice any toys around the place?
15 MRS MENSAH: No.
16 MR SHELDON: Did you notice anything that might indicate
17 that there was a young child living there?
18 MRS MENSAH: No.
19 MR SHELDON: And you say that there was a strong smell of
20 bleach.
21 MRS MENSAH: There was, yes.
22 MR SHELDON: What about the temperature of the flat?
23 MRS MENSAH: It was normal, it was all right.
24 MR SHELDON: You do not recall feeling particularly chilly
25 whilst you were in it?
22
1 MRS MENSAH: No.
2 MR SHELDON: Did you ask where everyone slept?
3 MRS MENSAH: I did. As I said, I was horrified to see the
4 three of them in that small apartment.
5 MR SHELDON: And what response did you get to that?
6 MRS MENSAH: Well I said to her -- I asked her to -- I think
7 she should move out, because it is too small for the
8 three of them to share, and I do not quite remember what
9 she said, but I think she was desperate to live
10 anywhere, so I do not think she took what I said
11 seriously.
12 MR SHELDON: So you asked where everyone slept, but you
13 cannot remember what answer you got, is that right?
14 MRS MENSAH: If you are asking me where everyone slept, she
15 slept in the bed, she said, and Anna slept on the sofa,
16 and Carl also on another sofa, I think.
17 MR SHELDON: There were two sofas in that room?
18 MRS MENSAH: I should think so. I cannot remember very
19 well.
20 MR SHELDON: I would like to move on now to your
21 observations of Victoria when she was there on that
22 occasion. Where was she when you went into the flat?
23 MRS MENSAH: She was sitting down on the sofa when I went
24 there.
25 MR SHELDON: Can you remember how she was dressed?
23
1 MRS MENSAH: She had a jumper on, yes, and she had a pair of
2 tights. That was all she had on.
3 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that you remember she
4 was shivering.
5 MRS MENSAH: She was, yes.
6 MR SHELDON: But you did not feel particularly cold in
7 there?
8 MRS MENSAH: No.
9 MR SHELDON: Were you surprised to see her in that state?
10 MRS MENSAH: I was.
11 MR SHELDON: Were there any marks on her that you saw?
12 MRS MENSAH: Well, that was afterwards, yes.
13 MR SHELDON: You describe an occasion in your statement
14 where Marie-Therese pulled up Victoria's sleeve, and you
15 saw a burn.
16 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: Was that the only mark you saw?
18 MRS MENSAH: I think so, yes.
19 MR SHELDON: Can you describe that burn?
20 MRS MENSAH: I think it was quite fresh, but it has been
21 quite a while now, so it is difficult to remember
22 everything.
23 MR SHELDON: Were you told what had caused it?
24 MRS MENSAH: She said she poured hot water on herself.
25 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement at paragraph 14 that
24
1 the friend that you took with you on that visit, two
2 lines up from the bottom:
3 "... would have noticed Victoria's short hair and
4 the marks on her face."
5 Were they the same marks on her face that you saw
6 back in the summer, or were they new ones?
7 MRS MENSAH: I think the same ones.
8 MR SHELDON: But they were still there when you went to
9 visit in February?
10 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Did Marie-Therese tell you that Victoria was
12 not eating properly?
13 MRS MENSAH: She told me she was not, yes.
14 MR SHELDON: And she told you that she had been injuring
15 herself?
16 MRS MENSAH: She did.
17 MR SHELDON: What was your reaction to hearing this news?
18 MRS MENSAH: That was what prompted the visit, because I was
19 concerned when she said the child was not eating, so
20 I decided to go and see them. That was the main reason
21 why I went to see them.
22 MR SHELDON: I would like to try and understand exactly how
23 ill Victoria seemed to you on this occasion, and I will
24 put to you what you said about this in the criminal
25 trial and see if you can remember it, otherwise we have
25
1 got the transcript here.
2 Sir, for your note, it is page 210 of volume 48.
3 You said that she seemed to you poorly.
4 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: "... not frail, but not her normal self".
6 MRS MENSAH: I am not sure if I used the word "frail", but
7 she looked poorly.
8 MR SHELDON: Perhaps we can have a look at that. It is
9 volume 48, page 210. The last answer you give on that
10 page is:
11 "Right, so I said, 'I will stop by and see you', so
12 I went to see her. She was poorly, not frail, but she
13 was not her normal self."
14 You go on later on to say that she was hostile to
15 you, did not seem very pleased to see you. Does that
16 accord with your recollection now?
17 MRS MENSAH: Right, yes.
18 MR SHELDON: So would it be right to say that she did not
19 seem seriously ill to you on that occasion?
20 MRS MENSAH: I would say she was not the same Anna I had
21 known earlier, she was very different, quite different
22 from what I had seen.
23 MR SHELDON: It is the differences that I am particularly
24 concerned about. How was she different to the Anna that
25 you had seen when she used to come to your church in the
26
1 summer?
2 MRS MENSAH: Well, when she used to come to the church, she
3 would not say much, but she did not look poorly. She
4 had marks on her face, and quiet, but she did not look
5 like I saw her when I last did in the flat. She looked
6 poorly in the sense that she did not look well to me.
7 I would say she did not look well -- looking back, I
8 would say she did not look well.
9 MR SHELDON: How concerned were you about her condition at
10 that stage?
11 MRS MENSAH: I was very concerned. In fact, when she told
12 me she was not eating, that was why I had to leave my
13 baby and go over to see her, I was that concerned.
14 MR SHELDON: Presumably because that was the reason for your
15 visit, you did speak to Marie-Therese about Victoria's
16 condition?
17 MRS MENSAH: Well, that was when I went -- after I saw her.
18 She said she was not eating, so I said, "All right,
19 I will come and see her". She did sound concerned, so
20 I went over -- I did not like the way she looked.
21 MR SHELDON: And whilst you were in the flat seeing her, did
22 you talk about her condition to Marie-Therese?
23 MRS MENSAH: I did.
24 MR SHELDON: And how concerned did she seem about her?
25 MRS MENSAH: She was concerned, but I think she was almost
27
1 exasperated. It was like she had exhausted every means
2 to get them a place to stay -- just get your life going,
3 and nothing seems to be happening, so I think she was
4 just fed up.
5 (10.30 am)
6 MR SHELDON: Did you give her some advice?
7 MRS MENSAH: I did.
8 MR SHELDON: What advice did you give her?
9 MRS MENSAH: I asked her again to go to the social services,
10 and she says she has. In fact, somebody had paid them
11 a visit earlier on, I am not sure about the dates.
12 I even asked her to go to the Citizens' Advice Bureau,
13 since she is a French national and the Government would
14 not even consider her, I asked her to go to the
15 Citizens' Advice Bureau, which she said she did, and
16 also about her seeking medical help, I did advise her to
17 do all of that.
18 MR SHELDON: That was during the course of your visit to
19 Somerset Gardens in February 2000?
20 MRS MENSAH: Prior to that and after the visit. Prior to
21 the visit, I advised her to seek help from any social
22 agency within her area, and when I went to see them,
23 I was that concerned that I asked her to get back to her
24 social worker -- by then she had one -- to see if she
25 could help, and she said the woman would not be
28
1 co-operative, in the sense that she kept insisting that
2 they were French nationals and they would not be able to
3 accommodate her, because she has a home in France and
4 they do not see why she should come to England and seek
5 accommodation, but I think -- I remember her saying that
6 they were, I think, concerned already to help the child
7 but not her, in the sense that if she could give the
8 child over to the social services or so, but the worker
9 was not ready to help both of them, that she would go
10 along and help the girl, I think.
11 MR SHELDON: Did you give her any advice about what to do
12 about Victoria during the course of your visit to the
13 flat on 12th February?
14 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: And what advice was that?
16 MRS MENSAH: I asked her to take her to the hospital. She
17 said she had.
18 MR SHELDON: You do not mention that in your statement. Why
19 is that?
20 MRS MENSAH: I think I did. I have said that all along,
21 that I advised her to take the child to the hospital,
22 and she said she had taken her to the hospital.
23 MR SHELDON: Did you also advise her to go and visit
24 a church?
25 MRS MENSAH: I did.
29
1 MR SHELDON: Was that the Universal Church of the Kingdom of
2 God on the Seven Sisters Road?
3 MRS MENSAH: Right, I advised her to go to any church, but
4 one church that I know in her area, that was close to
5 her, was the Universal Church which I think she could go
6 to.
7 MR SHELDON: You say in your CPS statement that that visit
8 lasted about 20 or 30 minutes or so, is that right?
9 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: And you never saw Victoria again after that, is
11 that right?
12 MRS MENSAH: No, I never saw her again.
13 MR SHELDON: During the course of all your encounters with
14 her, when she was at your church during the summer and
15 later on, did you ever notice her scratching herself?
16 MRS MENSAH: No.
17 MR SHELDON: And have you had any training as part of your
18 pastoral education about matters of child abuse, or
19 child protection?
20 MRS MENSAH: No.
21 MR SHELDON: Does your church provide any guidance for
22 pastors on matters of this sort?
23 MRS MENSAH: No.
24 MR SHELDON: If you suspected that a child in your
25 congregation was being abused, what would you do about
30
1 it?
2 MRS MENSAH: First of all I would probably contact the
3 social services and ask them to visit them, see if they
4 can help.
5 MR SHELDON: Have you ever had cause to do that?
6 MRS MENSAH: No, I have never had cause.
7 MR SHELDON: And did you at any stage now -- I have asked
8 this question in relation to summer 1999, but at any
9 stage in your dealings with them, did you think that
10 Victoria was being abused by Marie-Therese, physically
11 or emotionally?
12 MRS MENSAH: Not at all, no.
13 MR SHELDON: Did you believe Marie-Therese was a respectable
14 and honest individual?
15 MRS MENSAH: I did.
16 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much, Mrs Mensah. That is all
17 I want to ask.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs Mensah, just a few questions, please.
19 Could you have a look at your statement, please, to the
20 Inquiry? You said in answer to Mr Sheldon that you had
21 advised Mrs Kouao to take Victoria -- you know her as
22 Anna -- to hospital, and you said that several times.
23 I cannot detect anywhere in your statement where you say
24 that. Could you just direct me to that, please?
25 MRS MENSAH: It will probably take me a while to read
31
1 through this, but when I spoke to the police -- when the
2 police came to take my statement, I remember saying that
3 clearly to them. If it is not here, probably it is
4 because they did not ask me. If they asked me, I would
5 tell them, because I did ask her to take her to the
6 social services or whatever.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: A very early question that Mr Sheldon put to
8 you, on what was almost your first conversation with
9 Mrs Kouao about Victoria; when Mrs Kouao described her
10 concerns about Victoria, you said:
11 "I suggested she took her to the hospital, or that
12 she ought to seek professional advice from social
13 services."
14 What made you think that the hospital was the right
15 place to take the child?
16 MRS MENSAH: Right. She said the child was inflicting
17 wounds on herself, so I thought, well, she would either
18 get the professional help from the hospital or the
19 social services; that is why I asked her to do that.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: When you described your visit to the flat,
21 you described in somewhat vivid terms what you observed
22 about Victoria shivering, about the marks on her face,
23 the fact that it was said that she poured hot water over
24 herself, that she was not eating properly, that she
25 seemed very poorly. Did you think that it would be
32
1 a good thing for you to contact social services?
2 MRS MENSAH: No, there was no reason for me to doubt her
3 love for the child, so I -- it did not even occur to me
4 that there was abuse going on, so I did not think that
5 I would do that. I would advise her to do it, because
6 I see her as the mother, the mother to the child, and
7 any mother would want to care for their child and I do
8 not think there is any reason for me to go and do
9 that -- knowing she cares for the child.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: But she had described the reasons for these
11 to you as being because of witchcraft.
12 MRS MENSAH: Right.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Apart from praying, did you think that there
14 was something else that you might have done to protect
15 this child?
16 MRS MENSAH: Right. Again, I am having to say this: there
17 was not any indication that the mother was a bad mother.
18 She has shown concern, care for the child. There was no
19 reason for me to doubt her, so I did not think that
20 I had to do that.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: The £200 that you estimate the church gave to
22 Mrs Kouao, was that given in one sum or was that given
23 over a period of time?
24 MRS MENSAH: A period of time.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: And what was it for?
33
1 MRS MENSAH: For food, yes, basically.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: So we have a situation where this family is
3 having to come to the church for money for very basic
4 ingredients such as food, and also you observe that the
5 child had these characteristics, these features that you
6 described, but you still did not think, as you knew that
7 she had a social worker, it might have been worthwhile
8 picking up the phone and ringing the social worker?
9 MRS MENSAH: No, there was not any sign that she was a bad
10 mother, that is what I am saying, so it did not
11 prompt -- I did not feel any prompting to phone the
12 social services.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you see Victoria walk?
14 MRS MENSAH: I did.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Did anything strike you about that?
16 MRS MENSAH: Prior to the visit?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: At any time; was there anything you noticed
18 about her walking --
19 MRS MENSAH: It was normal.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you attempt to speak to her?
21 MRS MENSAH: I did, yes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: And what happened? What was the response?
23 MRS MENSAH: She just smiles, because she does not speak
24 English.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Has the church to which you belong had cause
34
1 to reflect upon what happened to Victoria, and have you
2 thought of any ways you might do things differently in
3 future?
4 MRS MENSAH: Yes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Such as what?
6 MRS MENSAH: Probably I would -- if I see a child in the
7 situation -- well, the thing is, I never suspected, or
8 no one did suspect that the mother would -- that
9 a mother would abuse a child, because her whole life
10 revolved around the child. Whenever I spoke to her, she
11 said, "I cannot work, because I have to look after Anna,
12 I cannot do this because of Anna", so you would
13 naturally feel that she was concerned for the child, and
14 would not have any doubt about her care, and her love,
15 so it would be difficult for one in my situation to just
16 go to the social services or contact any agency. But
17 having to look back on what has happened, I think that
18 I would, yes, probably take the necessary step myself,
19 contact the social services and find out what is
20 happening, yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: So finally from me, if there is one lesson
22 that you think you might have learnt from this
23 experience, what would it be?
24 MRS MENSAH: Right, you cannot always take people at their
25 word. You have to find out for yourself.
35
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Ms Mensah. Mr Sheldon?
2 MR SHELDON: Nothing further from me, thank you.
3 Mrs Mensah, thank you very much for coming. I wonder if
4 Mrs Mensah might be released?
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course.
6 (The witness withdrew)
7 MR SHELDON: Sir, the next witness is Mr Orome. I wonder if
8 I might ask him to come forward.
9 MR PASCAL OROME (sworn)
10 MR SHELDON: Please have a seat, Mr Orome. Would you
11 confirm your full name, please?
12 MR OROME: My name is Orome Pascal.
13 MR SHELDON: And do you recall having made a statement for
14 use by this Inquiry?
15 MR OROME: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: I wonder if a copy of that statement could be
17 put in front of you. Sir, it is in bundle 7 of the
18 witness bundle, starting at page 126.503. Mr Orome's
19 CPS statement is in bundle 46, page 162.501 and his
20 evidence to the Central Criminal Court is in volume 50
21 of the documents bundle between pages 141 and 206.
22 Mr Orome, I believe it is right that you were born
23 in the Ivory Coast?
24 MR OROME: That is right.
25 MR SHELDON: And you lived there until your mid 20s?
36
1 MR OROME: That is right.
2 MR SHELDON: Did you then come straight to this country?
3 MR OROME: That is right.
4 MR SHELDON: And what is your occupation now?
5 MR OROME: I am a church minister.
6 MR SHELDON: And in which part of London is your church?
7 MR OROME: It is in this area, by Borough High Street.
8 MR SHELDON: What is the name of it?
9 MR OROME: Mission Ensemble pour Christ.
10 MR SHELDON: It is right, is it not, that the majority of
11 your congregation of people here originated in the Ivory
12 Coast?
13 MR OROME: Yes, just about half, because I have different --
14 all French speaking countries.
15 MR SHELDON: What language are your services conducted in?
16 MR OROME: We speak in French there.
17 MR SHELDON: Do you remember an occasion where a lady called
18 Marie-Therese Kouao came to your church for the first
19 time?
20 MR OROME: Yes, I think it was about the end of August 1999,
21 in the last week, last Sunday of August 1999.
22 MR SHELDON: You say for example in your CPS statement that
23 it was 29th August 1999; would that sound about right to
24 you?
25 MR OROME: Yes.
37
1 MR SHELDON: Can you remember who she was with when she came
2 into your church?
3 MR OROME: When they get in the church, I was in the middle
4 of preaching, and I saw three people come in,
5 a gentleman called Julian --
6 MR SHELDON: Was he somebody that had been to your church
7 before?
8 MR OROME: No, it was the first time I saw them. It was
9 Julian -- I came to know him a little -- Marie-Therese
10 and Anna.
11 MR SHELDON: Did they come in and join in with the service?
12 MR OROME: Yes. They could not disturb people, because we
13 were in the middle of service, so they just gave them
14 a seat and we just carry on.
15 MR SHELDON: I realise it is difficult because you were in
16 the middle of preaching at the time, but can you
17 remember what the little girl, Victoria, was wearing
18 when she came in?
19 MR OROME: I think she was wearing a dress and -- up to this
20 level, covering all the hands. I think she put on
21 tights, but I cannot really remember now.
22 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that she was not
23 dressed appropriately for the season. What do you mean
24 by that?
25 MR OROME: It was summer, but she was wearing a bit heavy.
38
1 That is what I was -- thinking that it is not
2 appropriate to the weather.
3 MR SHELDON: How much of her body was visible outside of the
4 clothing?
5 MR OROME: You can only see the hands and the face and the
6 head, but the head was also covered. I think the head
7 was covered.
8 MR SHELDON: And how did her appearance compare to the lady
9 who at that stage I suppose you thought was her mother?
10 MR OROME: All right, when I saw Marie-Therese and I saw the
11 little girl, there was a contrast. For me, I just
12 thought that she was just coming freshly from Africa, so
13 that is why -- the difference in the way the mother was
14 dressed, it is not the same. It is like she was not
15 well dressed compared to the mother, that is my own
16 opinion.
17 MR SHELDON: Did you believe that they were mother and
18 daughter at that stage?
19 MR OROME: She told me, I have to believe it.
20 MR SHELDON: So the mother was much better dressed than the
21 little girl?
22 MR OROME: That is right, that was my view.
23 MR SHELDON: And you also noticed that the little girl's
24 clothes were not appropriate for the middle of summer?
25 MR OROME: That is right.
39
1 MR SHELDON: Apart from what she was wearing, what other
2 first impressions did you get of the little girl?
3 MR OROME: It is difficult to mention this, but -- after the
4 service, I approach her and I saw that she was having
5 a scar on her face, and so --
6 MR SHELDON: You pointed to your forehead just now; was that
7 where the scar was?
8 MR OROME: I cannot remember. I think there was something,
9 maybe on the face -- I mean up -- there was a scar on
10 the face somewhere. I cannot exactly tell you where it
11 was, but yes.
12 MR SHELDON: I want to come on to what you saw when you
13 spoke to them after the service, but if we can just
14 finish dealing with the service itself first of all.
15 MR OROME: Okay.
16 MR SHELDON: I think it is right to say that during the
17 service you felt drawn to Victoria, is that right?
18 MR OROME: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: Why was that?
20 MR OROME: This is things I cannot explain, but there
21 were -- I think they were sitting in front, so while
22 I was preaching, I approach her -- I cannot explain it.
23 I just call her, "Anna, you are delivered", I just call
24 her -- I cannot explain it, but I just -- I was led, and
25 I just approached her and said words.
40
1 MR SHELDON: You said that she was delivered; delivered of
2 what?
3 MR OROME: I can say witchcraft or wicked spirit.
4 MR SHELDON: So you felt that she had some sort of spiritual
5 problem?
6 MR OROME: When I -- I had not had any contact with her.
7 When I saw it, I was spiritual, I was led, and I just
8 said it.
9 MR SHELDON: It was the feeling you had when you saw her.
10 MR OROME: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Was it just Victoria that you had this feeling
12 about, or did you think that Marie-Therese had
13 a spiritual problem as well?
14 MR OROME: I was led to Victoria/Anna, not to the mother.
15 MR SHELDON: And how did she react when you said this prayer
16 for her?
17 MR OROME: I do not think that she reacted. I cannot
18 remember now.
19 MR SHELDON: But the mother did react, did she not?
20 MR OROME: This is after the service, yes.
21 MR SHELDON: What did she say to you?
22 MR OROME: She told me that I am a man of God, because how
23 do I know that -- did I find out that Anna was having
24 a spiritual problem?
25 MR SHELDON: So she told you that Anna was having
41
1 a spiritual problem, and you were right.
2 MR OROME: Yes.
3 MR SHELDON: Did she say what the spiritual problem was?
4 MR OROME: No, she did not tell me, but she said she was
5 pooing and she was giving her trouble. That is what she
6 told me.
7 MR SHELDON: If we can go back to what you noticed about the
8 little girl after the service, you saw some scars on her
9 face, is that right?
10 MR OROME: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Can you describe those scars for us?
12 MR OROME: It is difficult, but it is like burns, but
13 I cannot honestly remember now, but it is like she was
14 burned on the face, and there were some wounds in the
15 head, I think, because they came about three or four
16 times in the church. I do not know on which occasion
17 I told Marie-Therese to cut the hair so that the wound
18 can heal. I do not know on which occasion I did tell
19 her.
20 MR SHELDON: If you have a look at paragraph 11 of your
21 statement, you say in that paragraph, two lines up from
22 the bottom:
23 "I thought the scars were because she was mistreated
24 in Africa."
25 MR OROME: Yes.
42
1 MR SHELDON: So you thought the scars were attributable to
2 mistreatment, did you?
3 MR OROME: I mean, mistreat -- I do not know if it is the
4 word I used, but Africa -- when I found out it is a big
5 family back home, so the children, we play the way we
6 want and we hurt ourself anyhow, so for me it was the
7 way -- because the big family they cannot have all the
8 children in the same house, we play out. In the
9 morning, we can go out and come back in the evening, and
10 we come back with the wounds. Sometimes when we have
11 a wound we hide it. So for me it was just she was
12 coming freshly from Africa, so it was the mother who was
13 taking care of her to give her a good life.
14 MR SHELDON: I see. So when you saw the marks on her face
15 did you or did you not think that they had been caused
16 by somebody mistreating her?
17 MR OROME: No. I did not think about that, not at all.
18 MR SHELDON: Did you look at her hands on that occasion?
19 MR OROME: Yes, I saw the hands, it was burnt -- you see
20 some black marks on it. Different scars, you see
21 black -- it is like a wound which heals -- things like
22 that.
23 MR SHELDON: Did you ask Marie-Therese what had caused these
24 marks and injuries that you saw on the little girl?
25 MR OROME: I did not ask her. I did not ask her, because
43
1 what was in my mind, for me she was just coming freshly,
2 because she said she had just come from -- it was the
3 first time she came in the church, so for me they were
4 just people who were arriving about a week or so, so
5 I did not know that she was living here before.
6 MR SHELDON: Did you ask her if the little girl was
7 receiving any form of medical attention for those
8 injuries?
9 MR OROME: The injuries she was having, it is like they had
10 healed, so I did not ask her if she was having medical
11 treatment.
12 MR SHELDON: I thought you just told us now that you told
13 Marie-Therese to cut her hair short, to allow the wounds
14 to heal.
15 MR OROME: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: So the wounds had not healed by this stage, had
17 they?
18 MR OROME: Right, well, you see it is like this cover is
19 protecting these like cuts on the wounds. So it is in
20 her hair, and actually ladies, they have all high, so
21 I ask her if the wounds can breathe easily, to be healed
22 quickly.
23 MR SHELDON: Did you ask Marie-Therese why Victoria was
24 dressed the way that she was dressed?
25 MR OROME: No, I did not ask her. It is too far for me --
44
1 it is her private life, so I could not go that far, and
2 then she asked me -- if she comes to me for counselling,
3 it was too much -- I was not family to her.
4 MR SHELDON: Did Marie-Therese tell you on that occasion
5 that Victoria had inflicted those injuries on herself?
6 MR OROME: I cannot remember. Maybe she said, but I cannot
7 remember.
8 MR SHELDON: You cannot remember if she said that she had
9 burnt herself?
10 MR OROME: I cannot remember.
11 MR SHELDON: I wonder if you could have a look at volume 50
12 of the documents bundle at page 146. Mr Orome, this is
13 the evidence you gave at the Central Criminal Court
14 during the course of the trial. This is the part of
15 your evidence in which you dealt with the first meeting
16 that you had with Victoria and Marie-Therese, and then
17 after your description of much the same injuries that
18 you have described today, you were asked the following
19 question, about three questions down:
20 "So you had a conversation with the mother about
21 Anna, and did Marie-Therese give you any explanation for
22 these things you were seeing at all?
23 "Answer: Explanation? I just advised her that --
24 I mean, I asked her what was wrong, and she said she
25 burn herself, but I said, 'She has wounds on the head,
45
1 you cut the hair.'"
2 Do you now recall whether you were told that the
3 little girl had burnt herself or not?
4 MR OROME: I mean, I cannot trust the mother, but from what
5 the mother saying, I believed it, that is all.
6 MR SHELDON: So you were told that she burnt herself?
7 MR OROME: Yes, she told me, yes, I can remember.
8 MR SHELDON: And you believed it?
9 MR OROME: I believed it.
10 MR SHELDON: Were you also told that the little girl was
11 putting excrement in the food?
12 MR OROME: Yes, the mother told me that.
13 MR SHELDON: And that she was making a mess around the flat?
14 MR OROME: Yes, she told me that.
15 MR SHELDON: Did she give an explanation for that behaviour?
16 MR OROME: The explanation I give is that I am having
17 a child about the same age of Anna, so for me it is
18 abnormal. I think what I told her was she needed prayer
19 and she needed deliverance, because at this age she
20 cannot behave that way, so she needs a prayer.
21 MR SHELDON: So you took the view at this stage, did you,
22 that it was a spiritual rather than a medical problem?
23 MR OROME: Yes, that is what I think.
24 MR SHELDON: So you advised that prayer would be the answer,
25 rather than going to see a doctor, for example?
46
1 MR OROME: No, as somebody who is -- as a spiritual man, my
2 concern is the spiritual part. I would never advise her
3 not to go to see the specialist, but because she come to
4 the church, the only thing I can do is for the church.
5 So for me we need to pray, and after the prayer, then
6 she can go to see the GP or what -- the doctors, to
7 see -- for the healing.
8 MR SHELDON: So you would never discourage one of your
9 congregation from going to see a doctor?
10 MR OROME: Never.
11 MR SHELDON: But it is right to say that you never advised
12 Marie-Therese to take the child to a doctor?
13 MR OROME: Not advised, because we did not have time to talk
14 that way -- to tell her to go to a doctor. The time we
15 had, it was -- when I was talking to her, it is
16 a conversation, we could take about five minutes, and
17 discuss longer while we were talking about over the
18 phone, because it was after the service, and after the
19 first service, people come to me to speak to me, so
20 I cannot take 20 minutes to just talk to one person.
21 MR SHELDON: No. Did you specifically tell Marie-Therese
22 that it was not a medical problem that Victoria had, but
23 that it was a spiritual problem?
24 MR OROME: Saying "specifically" is too deep. I said --
25 I spoke to Marie-Therese that the child need prayer, and
47
1 I said that I was going to see some of my workers in the
2 church, to go and pray in the house. We were going to
3 arrange it, at a time, to go and pray in the house.
4 (11.00 am)
5 MR SHELDON: That was later, was it not, after you were told
6 by Marie-Therese that the problems with the defecating
7 had come back again?
8 MR OROME: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Is that right? That is what you say in your
10 statement.
11 MR OROME: Yes, that is it.
12 MR SHELDON: But just on that first occasion, the last thing
13 I need to ask you about that: you do not remember
14 specifically saying to Marie-Therese, "You do not need
15 a doctor for the child, it is a spiritual problem"?
16 MR OROME: No, I do not think I said that she did not need
17 a doctor, no. I do not think so.
18 MR SHELDON: Let me just put one further bit of the
19 transcript of the criminal trial to you. It is at
20 page 181 of the file that you have in front of you. At
21 the top of that page, you were asked:
22 "You told her that it was not normal for a child of
23 Anna's age to do what she was doing, did you not?
24 "Answer: Yes, that is right."
25 Then you were asked whether you advised them to see
48
1 a doctor, and you said:
2 "No, I did not tell her anything about a doctor",
3 and then you were asked to explain why that was. At the
4 bottom of your next answer, you say:
5 "For me, if it is an evil spirit since the age of
6 eight, pooing in the food is not normal. For me it is
7 not a sickness but evil spirit.
8 "Question: You told that to Marie-Therese, did you
9 not?
10 "Answer: She is aware of it.
11 "Question: You said that is what your opinion was.
12 That is what your belief was?
13 "Answer: Yes. That is right."
14 MR OROME: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: Do you remember saying that?
16 MR OROME: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: And is that how you remember the conversation
18 now?
19 MR OROME: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: So you did not see it as your job to advise
21 people to go and see a doctor?
22 MR OROME: Why not?
23 MR SHELDON: I am not suggesting you should, but that is
24 your understanding, is it?
25 MR OROME: Actually, from when I saw Anna, for me she needed
49
1 prayer, but I cannot advise a church member not to go to
2 see a doctor, no. Because actually we are humans, and
3 it is not because I am spiritual that I cannot wear the
4 clothes you are wearing and I cannot eat the food you
5 are eating. We are all humans, so even after dealing
6 with the spiritual thing -- because spiritual we cannot
7 touch so after dealing with the spiritual thing we have
8 to go to the normal procedures of human beings. I have
9 a GP myself.
10 MR SHELDON: Right, let us move on to the next time that
11 they came to your church, which was, I think, a fairly
12 short time afterwards, was it not?
13 MR OROME: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: And was that the occasion that Marie-Therese
15 stood up at the front and said that you were a man of
16 God because you had cured the problem?
17 MR OROME: That was, I think, her second visit, yes.
18 MR SHELDON: And the reason that she said that was because
19 the problems with Anna's incontinence had resolved?
20 MR OROME: That is what she told me, yes.
21 MR SHELDON: During that visit, did you have an opportunity
22 to look at Victoria again?
23 MR OROME: Looking at her, it is just a short look, because
24 it is in the church, we do not have time to spend more
25 time with her as usual. The problem is spiritual, it is
50
1 not physical, so even if she stop pooing in the house,
2 it does not mean that she cannot have the scar and the
3 wound. This is only spiritual.
4 MR SHELDON: Absolutely. I am not trying to explore the
5 cause of her problems, I am just trying to explore what
6 you saw when she came to your church --
7 MR OROME: Well, I mean she was still looking the same.
8 MR SHELDON: Right. And I think on that occasion, you say
9 in your statement there was a prophet at the church; is
10 that right?
11 MR OROME: I had a visitor, this prophet, he came to visit
12 us.
13 MR SHELDON: A Mr Severin, is that right?
14 MR OROME: Severin Kacon, yes. He came to preach at our
15 church that day. That was the second visit.
16 MR SHELDON: And you have written an addition on your
17 statement to the Inquiry which says:
18 "The prophet told her that she was set free and he
19 did not pray for her."
20 MR OROME: That is right.
21 MR SHELDON: Can you explain that? Why did he not pray for
22 her?
23 MR OROME: Because the prophet call people who seek to come
24 for the prayer, so Marie-Therese ask Anna to come in the
25 front, to be prayed, but when Anna came in the front,
|
