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Archived Transcript for 5 October 2001: Pages
1 to 50
1
1 Friday, 5th October 2001
2 (9.30 am)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Mr Garnham?
5 MR GARNHAM: Sir, good morning. We are about to start with
6 the Cameron witnesses, none of whom appear to be in the
7 room. Two minutes ago, their legal team were sitting
8 there; they have since disappeared, so I am afraid
9 I will have to ask you to wait a moment while we find
10 out where this witness is.
11 MS LAWSON: Sir, I wonder therefore whether I might usefully
12 use the slight pause we have to explain that in the
13 light of some of the problems that arose earlier in the
14 week, when witnesses were being questioned and there was
15 concern being expressed about the legal powers that they
16 did or did not have to do the various things that were
17 being suggested to him. I suggested to Mr Garnham that
18 it might be helpful if we could agree -- whether the
19 framework of the legal powers that the Inquiry considers
20 were available to the social workers could be agreed.
21 He suggested I did a note for him; I rise simply to
22 make it clear that I have given him that this morning,
23 and that I hope that any additional powers which he or
24 his team think were available will be added to it, and
25 it will then be available for the Inquiry's use.
2
1 I emphasise, it is not an attempt to tell my grandmother
2 how to suck eggs.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms Lawson, I am very grateful to you for your
4 help. Thank you very much indeed.
5 MR GARNHAM: I am looking across at Ms Boye in the hope that
6 she might be able to indicate whether the witnesses are
7 here.
8 MS BOYE: Sorry, sir, I am afraid they are not.
9 Patrick Cameron is here, and I am unclear whether he is
10 being called or read at this stage, because we have had
11 letters to both effects.
12 MR GARNHAM: Sir, in the absence of Avril and
13 Priscilla Cameron then, I think we will call Patrick
14 first. I am anxious to not waste the time, so I will ask
15 Mr Sheldon to call Patrick Cameron. (Pause).
16 MS BOYE: Sorry, sir. Miss and Mrs Cameron have now just
17 arrived, so they are just coming in. I have everybody
18 coming in; I do not know who you will want to take
19 first.
20 MR SHELDON: If it is convenient for you, sir, I think
21 I would rather start with Priscilla Cameron, and take
22 Patrick later.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: That will be fine by me, thank you very much
24 indeed. Let us begin as soon as you can, Mr Sheldon.
25 MS BOYE: Sir, Mrs Cameron has now just gone to the ladies.
3
1 Avril Cameron is here.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Mr Sheldon was saying he will begin
3 with Priscilla.
4 MS BOYE: Yes, she has just gone to the ladies.
5 MR SHELDON: Sir, if you are content to wait a moment or two
6 for her to come back?
7 MS BOYE: Sir, will you excuse me for a moment? I will go
8 and do some shepherding. (Pause).
9 MR GARNHAM: Sir, I am sorry about this unfortunate delay.
10 It perhaps gives me the excuse to underline to
11 interested parties who are taking it upon themselves to
12 arrange the attendance of witnesses that we are
13 dependent upon their co-operation in their getting
14 witnesses here promptly. Sir, I do not want to delay
15 the Inquiry's time, and therefore I am going to invite
16 Mr Sheldon to call Patrick Cameron, so we can get
17 started.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr Garnham. I will have
19 a little more to say on that a bit later.
20 MR SHELDON: Sir, the reason I am pausing now is although we
21 do have Mr Cameron in the room, we seem to have shed
22 a witness manager.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Could we try and proceed, please, as quickly
24 as we can? I would be grateful, Ms Boye, for
25 an explanation as to why it was not possible for the
4
1 witnesses to be here. I will understand if there are
2 exceptional circumstances, but not if there were not.
3 MR SHELDON: It now appears, sir, that I am starting with
4 Mrs Cameron, if that is convenient to you.
5 MRS PRISCILLA CAMERON (sworn)
6 MRS CAMERON: Would you excuse me, please? Can I catch my
7 breath, please?
8 MR SHELDON: Certainly, Mrs Cameron. (Pause). Do you feel
9 able to start now, Mrs Cameron?
10 MRS CAMERON: Yes, I think so.
11 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much. Mrs Cameron, could you
12 just confirm your full name for us, please?
13 MRS CAMERON: My name is Priscilla Cameron.
14 MR SHELDON: And do you remember making a statement for use
15 by this Inquiry?
16 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: I wonder if a copy of that could be put in
18 front of Mrs Cameron. It is in bundle 7 of the witness
19 bundle, starting at page 100.509.
20 Sir, for your note, Mrs Cameron also made
21 a statement to the CPS which is in bundle 46 of the
22 documents bundle, page 46.510. Mrs Cameron also gave
23 evidence at the criminal trial, and the transcript of
24 her evidence is in bundle 50, between pages 233 and 298.
25 Mrs Cameron, could you have a look at the statement
5
1 that has just been put in front of you, please? Is that
2 your statement?
3 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
4 MR SHELDON: And are you happy that the facts in it are
5 true, as far as you are aware?
6 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: Mrs Cameron, I would like to start, first of
8 all, with the length of time that you looked after the
9 little girl you knew as Anna, but who we now know was
10 called Victoria. You say in your statement that you
11 first met Mary, as you knew her then, in early 1999; is
12 that right?
13 MRS CAMERON: I did not met Mary. Mary met me.
14 MR SHELDON: I see. She came to your house, did she not?
15 MRS CAMERON: A friend brought her.
16 MR SHELDON: And that was in early 1999?
17 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: Was it soon after you first met Mary, or she
19 met you, that you started looking after her little girl?
20 MRS CAMERON: Well yes, she came and asked me for help.
21 I told her that I am not a registered nanny, but if she
22 needs help, she wants help, I will help her out,
23 especially with the child.
24 MR SHELDON: And you looked after that child from the time
25 that Mary came to see you up until your daughter Avril
6
1 took the little girl to hospital, is that right?
2 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
3 MR SHELDON: And after Avril took her to the hospital, you
4 did not look after her any more?
5 MRS CAMERON: No.
6 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that that period of
7 time, between when you started looking after the little
8 girl and when you finished, was about three months; is
9 that the best of your recollection?
10 MRS CAMERON: Yes, about that.
11 MR SHELDON: And you say that on a typical day, you would
12 look after the little girl from quite early in the
13 morning, about 7.00, until quite late in the evening,
14 maybe 10.00 or 10.30 at night, is that right?
15 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: If I were to suggest to you that it was not
17 quite as long as three months, and that it was in fact
18 nearer five weeks that you looked after this little
19 girl, what would you say to that?
20 MRS CAMERON: No, it is not five weeks.
21 MR SHELDON: I wonder if Mrs Cameron could be shown
22 bundle 37, page 24. Mrs Cameron, I am going to ask you
23 to have a look at a document. It is a bit hard to make
24 out the writing on that document, so I will read out the
25 bits that I would like you to comment on. These are
7
1 part of the notes that were taken by the doctor that
2 looked at Victoria when Avril took her into the
3 hospital, and in these notes, he records what Avril told
4 him about you looking after Victoria, and it is written
5 here:
6 "A month ago, Anna's mum came knocking on the
7 carer's door, Saturday evening", I think it says.
8 Then she goes on to list five weeks during which she
9 says that you looked after the little girl, and explains
10 in relation to each of those weeks which days you cared
11 for her. So it seems from that that you looked after
12 Victoria for maybe four or five weeks; do you think that
13 might be right?
14 MRS CAMERON: No, I do not think so. It is not right.
15 MR SHELDON: You still think that it was three months?
16 MRS CAMERON: It is more than three months, because she
17 keeps on telling me, she says, "I do not have any money,
18 I did not get paid at the hospital". She says she gets
19 paid monthly, so it is three months. Three months end,
20 she says she does not have any money at all, that she
21 did not get paid from the hospital, that is what she
22 told me.
23 MR SHELDON: And that is why she could not pay you to look
24 after Victoria?
25 MRS CAMERON: I did not ask her for any money. She asked me
8
1 for help. I said, "I will help you out", because she
2 says she came to this country and the DSS refused to
3 give her money, because they say she is supposed to be
4 in the country for six months.
5 MR SHELDON: And it was not part of the agreement that the
6 two of you had that she would pay you for looking after
7 what you thought was her daughter?
8 MRS CAMERON: No, we did not make any agreement for paying.
9 MR SHELDON: But she did give you some money at one stage,
10 did she not?
11 MRS CAMERON: That is when she brought the child ill.
12 MR SHELDON: She gave you £90, did she not?
13 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: And promised that there would be some more to
15 come later?
16 MRS CAMERON: She was crying, because I did not want to take
17 the child. I said, "I do not have nowhere for her to
18 sleep". She started crying, and I felt so sorry for her
19 and the child. She said, "If you do not take in this
20 child, the child and I will sleep on the street tonight,
21 because the boyfriend does not want the child there,
22 because she wee wees on his carpet".
23 MR SHELDON: We will come on to that later, but for the time
24 being, you agree that she gave you £90 on that night?
25 MRS CAMERON: Yes, she did.
9
1 MR SHELDON: But that was the first time she had ever given
2 you any money?
3 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
4 MR SHELDON: What did you think that £90 was for?
5 MRS CAMERON: Maybe because I was sorry for her and the
6 child, I think so. I did not ask her what the £90 is
7 for.
8 MR SHELDON: Because you had only agreed to look after the
9 little girl for that night, had you not?
10 MRS CAMERON: She said, "Just take her in for one night
11 then", and I said, "Okay then".
12 MR SHELDON: Because £90 is quite a lot of money for just
13 one night's childcare, is it not?
14 MRS CAMERON: Yes, but she gave it to me, and I accepted it.
15 I did not ask her for any.
16 MR SHELDON: You look after other people's children from
17 time to time, do you not, Mrs Cameron?
18 MRS CAMERON: I do not look after. I take them to school.
19 MR SHELDON: And if their parents are not home when they
20 come out of school, then you will take them home with
21 you and look after them there up until it is time for
22 them to go back to their parents.
23 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: Do you keep any sort of record or any book in
25 which you write down which children you look after and
10
1 when?
2 MRS CAMERON: No, because I was only doing a favour, because
3 my grandchildren were there too. I take my
4 grandchildren, included these children, so I do not keep
5 any record. It is just a favour I am doing them.
6 MR SHELDON: You do not keep a diary to remind you which
7 children you are supposed to be taking to school on
8 which days?
9 MRS CAMERON: No, they go to school from Monday to Friday.
10 They all go to school from Monday to Friday, that is it.
11 MR SHELDON: And you always take the same children to school
12 and pick up the same children?
13 MRS CAMERON: The same set.
14 MR SHELDON: Were you looking after any other children
15 during the day at the time that Mary's little girl was
16 with you?
17 MRS CAMERON: No.
18 MR SHELDON: And I think you have said already, and you have
19 said all along -- this is not a criticism, Mrs Cameron,
20 but you are not a registered childminder.
21 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
22 MR SHELDON: I would like to take you back to when Mary
23 first came round to visit you and asked you for your
24 help. Your first response was that you could not look
25 after the little girl, because you were not a registered
11
1 childminder, is that right?
2 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
3 MR SHELDON: But you changed your mind and you agreed that
4 you would help her out.
5 MRS CAMERON: Yes, because I was sorry for her.
6 MR SHELDON: And you came to an arrangement under which you
7 would look after the little girl during the days.
8 MRS CAMERON: Yes, she says she will bring her on Monday,
9 and she says that she has registered her with the
10 Harlesden Primary School, and she heard from my son that
11 I take children to school. I says yes. She say, "Well,
12 if you look after the child, you will get used to the
13 child, the two of you will get used to each other, and
14 when September comes, I will ask you to take her to
15 Harlesden Primary School".
16 MR SHELDON: So did you think you would be looking after
17 this little girl all the way up to the start of the
18 school term in September?
19 MRS CAMERON: No, well, she could change her mind.
20 MR SHELDON: Right. How many days a week were you agreeing
21 to look after her for?
22 MRS CAMERON: Monday to Friday, five days.
23 MR SHELDON: And what hours during the day?
24 MRS CAMERON: Well, I did not make any arrangement for the
25 days, I just took her in.
12
1 MR SHELDON: Were you expected to provide her with meals?
2 MRS CAMERON: Well I ask her to bring some food that she
3 knows that her child likes, and the first Monday morning
4 she brought the child, all she bought is a packet of
5 Uncle Ben rice and two packets of pilchards and a packet
6 of cornflakes.
7 MR SHELDON: Did she ever bring any other food apart from
8 that?
9 MRS CAMERON: No. I told her that the food is finished, but
10 she says she does not have any money.
11 MR SHELDON: So you fed Victoria from that time on?
12 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
13 MR SHELDON: Three meals a day?
14 MRS CAMERON: Yes, four sometimes, because she is late in
15 the night, and I gave her a snack.
16 MR SHELDON: Was she easy to feed?
17 MRS CAMERON: Oh yes.
18 MR SHELDON: She had a good appetite?
19 MRS CAMERON: Yes, and she love ice cream, when she wants
20 ice cream, she say, "Granny, ice, ice", so I took her
21 out to the kitchen and she opened the freezer and she
22 showed me, she want ice cream or a lolly.
23 MR SHELDON: And when you first saw her, what was your first
24 impression of this little girl?
25 MRS CAMERON: I say, "You told me it was a girl, and it is
13
1 a boy". She says, "No, it is a girl".
2 MR SHELDON: Why did you think it was a boy?
3 MRS CAMERON: Because she had no hair, and she were all
4 dressed like a boy.
5 MR SHELDON: When you say she had no hair, do you mean it
6 was very short hair, or she had no hair at all?
7 MRS CAMERON: No hair at all, no hair. You could not even
8 plait, no hair at all.
9 MR SHELDON: Did she ever wear a wig while she was with you?
10 MRS CAMERON: I have never seen her with a wig, but she came
11 without no hair. I said, "What happened to her hair?",
12 and she said, "Oh, I cut it", and I said "Why?", and she
13 said, "Easy to comb".
14 MR SHELDON: What about her clothes?
15 MRS CAMERON: Well, the first time she came, her clothes
16 were all right; they were very old clothes, but they
17 were clean.
18 MR SHELDON: I see. Did she bring any toys with her?
19 MRS CAMERON: No, I give her toys, because I have got toys
20 at home.
21 MR SHELDON: And as you got to know her over the time that
22 you were looking after her, what sort of little girl was
23 she?
24 MRS CAMERON: Well, she was, you know, she sits and looks at
25 the telly, and when she is fed up with the toys, she
14
1 starts moving my things around, so I asked her -- well,
2 she cannot speak English, so I cannot speak any English
3 to her, but when the mother comes in the evening, I ask
4 her to speak to the little girl, not to move my things
5 around, because they are expensive things, and she
6 started to the child, "You are a wicked girl, you are
7 a bad girl, you are a wicked girl", and she takes her
8 away and she is telling her off all the way she is
9 going, because I looked through the window, I see her
10 going, and her friend came one night, one evening, she
11 says, "Granny, what do you tell Mary make every time she
12 leave your place she beats the child in the room?"
13 MR SHELDON: I want to ask you about that in particular in
14 a moment, Mrs Cameron, but if I could just ask you about
15 the first thing you said, which was how Mary used to
16 tell Victoria off when she came to pick her up.
17 MRS CAMERON: No, when I told her what she was doing, and
18 she would speak to her.
19 MR SHELDON: And how did Victoria react when she was being
20 told off?
21 MRS CAMERON: She went like this (indicates), rubbing her
22 two hands between her legs and bending her head.
23 MR SHELDON: And what did you think about Mary talking to
24 her like that?
25 MRS CAMERON: Well, I said that, you know, she is trying to
15
1 warn her, but it was consistent. I stopped telling her
2 things, because of what the other lady told me, and she
3 keeps on.
4 MR SHELDON: Did you think it was fair of her to talk to
5 Victoria like that?
6 MRS CAMERON: No, because she is a child.
7 MR SHELDON: Did you say anything to her about it?
8 MRS CAMERON: No, I never said anything.
9 MR SHELDON: Why did you not say anything to her about it?
10 MRS CAMERON: She would not listen. Mary would not listen.
11 If you talk to her, she would not listen.
12 MR SHELDON: You then started to tell us about a time
13 another lady called Mary came round and spoke to you
14 about Victoria.
15 MRS CAMERON: Yes, she says, "Granny, what do you tell Mary
16 every afternoon when she leave your place about this
17 child? She beats the child in the room".
18 MR SHELDON: This is Mary telling you about what happened --
19 MRS CAMERON: Nigerian Mary, telling me about other Mary,
20 which she has told her she is Mary, says that what do
21 I say to Mary make she beats the child, every night she
22 leave my place, in the room.
23 MR SHELDON: And what did you think when you heard that?
24 MRS CAMERON: I was a bit upset. I did not like it, because
25 I say, "I am the one that caused that, because if I did
16
1 not tell her anything, she would not have beat the
2 child".
3 MR SHELDON: Did you think you should do anything about it?
4 MRS CAMERON: Well, I stopped telling her things.
5 MR SHELDON: Did you think you should inform the authorities
6 that Victoria was being beaten by Mary?
7 MRS CAMERON: Well, Mary did not come back and tell me if
8 she beats her again. I did not get another complaint
9 about saying Mary is beating, so I did not say anything.
10 I thought maybe she has stopped beating her.
11 MR SHELDON: Why do you think Nigerian Mary was telling you
12 about this.
13 MRS CAMERON: Because Mary is too consistent. She beats the
14 child, the child is not going anywhere, she still beats
15 the child.
16 MR SHELDON: Go on.
17 MRS CAMERON: Because Nigerian Mary did came back the
18 following day -- a couple of days after, and she said
19 she still beats the child, and I said, "I do not tell
20 her anything. It is her child, let her try".
21 MR SHELDON: Did you talk to Victoria about this?
22 MRS CAMERON: I cannot talk to her, because she cannot speak
23 English.
24 MR SHELDON: Did she start to learn English while she was
25 with you?
17
1 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: Did her English get better whilst she was
3 living with you?
4 MRS CAMERON: No, all I was teaching her to write.
5 MR SHELDON: You were teaching her to write?
6 MRS CAMERON: Yes, and to draw.
7 MR SHELDON: How did she get on with writing?
8 MRS CAMERON: All right. Everything I showed her to write,
9 she writes it all right.
10 MR SHELDON: Did she seem quite a bright child to you?
11 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: And did you get on well with each other?
13 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: You enjoyed her company, did you?
15 MRS CAMERON: Yes. We were getting used to each other.
16 MR SHELDON: And what about the other children in the house,
17 because I think you live with your two grandsons as
18 well, do you not?
19 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: Did Victoria get on well with other children?
21 MRS CAMERON: Well, my grandchildren, they are not there for
22 the whole day, they comes in from school -- so I am not
23 sure about that. They all sit down, watch telly, but
24 they are not there for the whole day, but she is with me
25 for the whole day.
18
1 MR SHELDON: But when they were there together, were there
2 any particular problems?
3 MRS CAMERON: Not really.
4 MR SHELDON: I would like you to talk to us now,
5 Mrs Cameron, about Victoria's wetting the bed, which you
6 talk about in your statement. You say that Victoria
7 sometimes used to have a nap when she came to stay with
8 you, is that right?
9 MRS CAMERON: Yes, after lunch.
10 MR SHELDON: And where did she sleep when she had the nap?
11 MRS CAMERON: I put her on the settee to sleep.
12 MR SHELDON: Was that every day, or was it just now and
13 again?
14 MRS CAMERON: Every day.
15 MR SHELDON: And would she wet herself when she was asleep?
16 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: And how often would that happen?
18 MRS CAMERON: She wets herself every day, every day she wets
19 herself, so I start putting bedclothes and a piece of
20 plastic to protect the chair, and I told Mary, I said,
21 "You did not tell me that Anna wets the bed".
22 MR SHELDON: Did she ever wet herself when she was not
23 asleep?
24 MRS CAMERON: No, no. She says, "Granny, granny"
25 (indicates). That means that she wants to go to the
19
1 toilet. I say, "You want to go to the toilet, you know
2 where the toilet is". The first day I showed her the
3 toilet, but after then she knows where to find the
4 toilet.
5 MR SHELDON: So when she was awake, there was no problem?
6 MRS CAMERON: No, no problem.
7 MR SHELDON: Just when she was asleep?
8 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: And was it just wetting the bed, or did she
10 soil the bed as well?
11 MRS CAMERON: No, not soil, just wet.
12 MR SHELDON: Just wetting. You know young children fairly
13 well, Mrs Cameron, you have looked after quite a few of
14 them. Did that seem a worrying thing to you?
15 MRS CAMERON: Yes, I was a bit worried, because the place --
16 Mary always complain about the place, the room that she
17 is living, that time she asked the landlord for a bigger
18 room or something, she said the room is too small for
19 herself and the children, so I said, "Well, you will
20 have to wait on the council".
21 MR SHELDON: But apart from the difficulties it may have
22 caused for Mary, were you worried about Victoria, that
23 she was behaving like this?
24 MRS CAMERON: Yes, afterwards I was a bit worried, because
25 when she was writing, I notice that all her fingers has
20
1 got little cuts, so I ask Mary, I say, "What is the
2 matter with Anna's finger?" She says, "Oh, she plays
3 with razor blade". I said, "Why can you not put the
4 razor blade up high, so she cannot get them?" She said,
5 "Oh, she took chair and climb up and got the razor
6 blade. She even cut her clothes".
7 MR SHELDON: Did they look like the sort of cuts that were
8 caused by razor blades to you?
9 MRS CAMERON: Well, yes, some of it.
10 MR SHELDON: Were you convinced by the explanation that Mary
11 gave you for those cuts?
12 MRS CAMERON: Yes, because they were straight cuts, but at
13 the tip of the fingers has a little pus, just a wee
14 drop.
15 MR SHELDON: Did Victoria, or Anna as you knew her, seem
16 like the sort of little girl to you who would cut
17 herself deliberately with razor blades?
18 MRS CAMERON: No, I do not think so.
19 MR SHELDON: Did she ever try and cut herself with anything
20 while she was living with you?
21 MRS CAMERON: No.
22 MR SHELDON: So when Mary said that she had cut herself with
23 razor blades on her fingers, what did you think?
24 MRS CAMERON: Well, I told her to put the razor blade where
25 she cannot get it.
21
1 MR SHELDON: I would like to ask you now about scratching.
2 Everybody scratches from time to time.
3 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
4 MR SHELDON: Did you notice Victoria or Anna scratching more
5 than usual whilst she stayed with you?
6 MRS CAMERON: She never scratched. She never scratched with
7 me.
8 MR SHELDON: Did you ever think that she was suffering from
9 any sort of skin complaint?
10 MRS CAMERON: No, I think she was scared of the mother, that
11 is the thing. She was scared of that woman.
12 MR SHELDON: What was Victoria's skin like?
13 MRS CAMERON: Well, her skin was ordinary. Well, I do not
14 know about her body, but her face and her hands and her
15 feet was all right to me.
16 MR SHELDON: Did you or anybody else that lived in your
17 house suffer from any skin complaint whilst Victoria was
18 staying with you?
19 MRS CAMERON: No.
20 MR SHELDON: You never had any particular itching or
21 anything like that?
22 MRS CAMERON: No, no.
23 MR SHELDON: Your grandsons?
24 MRS CAMERON: No, they were all right.
25 MR SHELDON: I would like to just ask you briefly about
22
1 Victoria's manner when Mary came to pick her up in the
2 evenings. I think you said in your statement that it
3 changed; do you remember that?
4 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: That she seemed a different little girl when
6 what you thought was her mother was there than when she
7 was not, is that right?
8 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: How was she different?
10 MRS CAMERON: She was happy during the day when she was with
11 me. We watched telly, lunchtime -- she was all right.
12 She plays with the toys. After the mother told her off,
13 she stopped taking my things around, and it seems as if
14 she forgets at certain times to go and interfere, so
15 I say, "Anna", (indicates) so she understand that I mean
16 not to trouble that, so if I know that Mary would have
17 beat her when I complained that she is moving my things
18 around, I would have started showing her a sign, because
19 she understand the sign good, she understand the sign.
20 MR SHELDON: Did she seem a happy little girl when she was
21 living with you?
22 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: And was she equally happy when her mother came
24 to --
25 MRS CAMERON: No. The minute the doorbell rings, oh, you
23
1 could see, she is a bit, you know, upset, like when
2 someone says, "Here come troubles".
3 MR SHELDON: I see. I would like to move on to the time
4 that Mary and Victoria came to your house in the
5 evening, and Mary asked you to keep Victoria
6 permanently; do you remember that?
7 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
8 MR SHELDON: What did you understand by her asking you to
9 take Victoria permanently?
10 MRS CAMERON: When you say "understand", what do you mean?
11 MR SHELDON: Did you think she wanted you to adopt her?
12 MRS CAMERON: No. I did not have that in my thoughts.
13 MR SHELDON: Did you think she meant you should keep her for
14 a few days?
15 MRS CAMERON: Well, she mentioned about the school, so if
16 she mentioned about the school, that means to say that
17 I will be taking her to school until she gets
18 a transfer, if she does not change her mind.
19 MR SHELDON: Did you think that Mary wanted to leave
20 Victoria with you forever?
21 MRS CAMERON: No, it is after -- the night when she brought
22 her ill, that is the time she asked me to take her in
23 permanent.
24 MR SHELDON: For good, forever?
25 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
24
1 MR SHELDON: Did she say why she wanted you to take Victoria
2 for good?
3 MRS CAMERON: That is when she brought her ill?
4 MR SHELDON: Yes.
5 MRS CAMERON: She says that Carl does not want her there, so
6 I said, "I am very sorry, I cannot take her in, because
7 I have nowhere for her to sleep".
8 MR SHELDON: But you did agree to take her in for one night,
9 you said.
10 MRS CAMERON: Yes, I took her in for the one night, and the
11 poor child was looking so -- are you ready for that
12 part?
13 MR SHELDON: Yes.
14 MRS CAMERON: The poor child was looking so ill, and when
15 I decide -- when I give her my okay, to say, yes, I will
16 take her in for the one night, she has spoken her
17 language, and send the child to go outside and get the
18 two bags of clothes, but I do not know what she told the
19 child. When she came with the bags of clothes, then
20 I know what she told the child. She rested two bags of
21 clothes in front of the kitchen door, and she had on
22 this baseball cap down at her face.
23 MR SHELDON: Did she often wear a baseball cap?
24 MRS CAMERON: No, she is always bare headed, nothing on her
25 head.
25
1 MR SHELDON: I see, so that was the first time she had ever
2 worn the cap?
3 MRS CAMERON: Yes, that night she came with that baseball
4 cap, down on her face.
5 MR SHELDON: Did you see her take the cap off?
6 MRS CAMERON: I lifted it off.
7 MR SHELDON: And what did you see when you lifted it up?
8 MRS CAMERON: The right cheek was burn, like a 50p coin.
9 I said, "Who burned this child's face?" She say, "Oh
10 no, I did not burn her face. She is scratching".
11 I said, "No, that does not look like scratch to me".
12 Anyway, I leave it to go, I did not argue.
13 I saw a piece of skin hanging on her right eyelid.
14 That looks very fresh, it really was a bit red up there,
15 and the two eyes, both eyes, red, red. I said, "Who
16 beat this child in the eyes?" She say, "Oh no, she
17 scratch". I say, "How could she" -- I said, "She
18 scratch here, but she cannot scratch in the eyes and
19 there". She said, "No, no, no". Anyway, I did not
20 argue with her, because that is what she is telling me.
21 I go for what she is telling me, but I know it is not
22 a scratch.
23 MR SHELDON: So you were not convinced that the injuries you
24 saw were caused by scratching?
25 MRS CAMERON: It was not scratching. Anyway, she spoke to
26
1 the child. I do not know what she is saying. When she
2 went through the door, she says she will collect her
3 tomorrow, and after she gone, I took the child in the
4 room with the two bags, I told my grandson, I said,
5 "James, you will have to give up your bed for tonight,
6 and we will make Anna comfortable, because she does not
7 look well to me". I said, "You will sleep on the
8 settee", and well, he decided. I took her to the
9 bathroom -- she was so smelly.
10 MR SHELDON: So you took her to the bathroom to have a wash.
11 MRS CAMERON: I took her to the bathroom, turned on the
12 shower. I tried to assist her to undress.
13 MR SHELDON: Did you see her without her clothes on?
14 MRS CAMERON: No. She said, "No, no, no, Granny".
15 MR SHELDON: So she would not let you take her clothes off?
16 MRS CAMERON: She would not let me take off her clothes, so
17 I assume maybe that is what her mother was telling her,
18 so I leave her to get on with it, I leave soap and
19 everything, give her a bath towel, she had a shower.
20 I went into the kitchen -- no, I went into the bedroom
21 and stripped the bed, made the bed up with some clean
22 bedclothes, put a piece of plastic and a draw sheet, in
23 case if she wets the bed.
24 When I went in the bathroom to check her out, she
25 was not there, she was in the room -- oh yes, I leave my
27
1 son, my grandson pyjamas, because all the clothes in the
2 bag were smelly, they were stink and wet, so I could not
3 give that poor child those clothes.
4 MR SHELDON: So she had a shower, you put her into some of
5 your grandson's pyjamas --
6 MRS CAMERON: I leave it on the bed. She knew that -- maybe
7 she assume that those belong. I leave it there for her.
8 MR SHELDON: And then she went to bed?
9 MRS CAMERON: When I went to check her in the bath, she was
10 not there. When I look in the room, she was there.
11 I said, "Are you all right?" She says "Yes". I say,
12 "Anna, Anna" (indicates), that is if she wants a drink.
13 She says (indicates). I say, "Anna" (indicates), to see
14 if she wants something to eat. She says no, but I knew
15 that poor child was so hungry, she had wanted to sleep
16 so she could not eat.
17 MR SHELDON: So you left her to sleep, did you?
18 MRS CAMERON: I put her into bed, I tucked her in, I went in
19 the front room, see that James get into bed on the
20 settee, I sat down there and I watched telly, about
21 12.30 to 1.00.
22 MR SHELDON: If I just pause you there, I think later on
23 that night you heard some groaning from Anna's room.
24 MRS CAMERON: No, not that time. I am coming to the
25 groaning now. I say, "Well, it is time for me to go to
28
1 bed", and her room is just opposite to my room, so
2 I heard a bit of groaning, and the groaning was coming
3 from the said room, so I pushed the door and went in,
4 I looked at her, she was groaning. Her face was
5 swollen. It seems as if she had got like that said
6 night she brought her, and then she had the fingers on
7 the pillow, and her cheek rest on the pillow like this.
8 Then I notice all those fingers, all ten fingers in pus,
9 and one of these little fingers twisted as if somebody
10 was going to break it off. I went and I got my
11 daughter.
12 MR SHELDON: Had you not noticed the injuries on her fingers
13 before?
14 MRS CAMERON: No.
15 MR SHELDON: It was only when you saw her asleep?
16 MRS CAMERON: She was like this (indicates) and then
17 I notice all those fingers, all ten.
18 MR SHELDON: Why do you think you did not see that before,
19 when she came into your house in the first place?
20 MRS CAMERON: Well, I did not expect to see something like
21 that. I did not expect.
22 MR SHELDON: But you saw it quite clearly --
23 MRS CAMERON: When she was lying down -- and her face was
24 not swollen then, but while she was sleeping -- like as
25 if she had got like this said night she brought her,
29
1 because her face was swollen to a size.
2 MR SHELDON: So you brought your daughter Avril to have
3 a look?
4 MRS CAMERON: To have a look.
5 MR SHELDON: And you talked about it?
6 MRS CAMERON: Yes, so Avril say, "Mummy, she does not look
7 too good to me, I will take her to the doctor in the
8 morning".
9 MR SHELDON: At that stage, did you form any view as to what
10 may have caused the injuries that you saw?
11 MRS CAMERON: I said she beat her. She did beat her.
12 MR SHELDON: Who beat her?
13 MRS CAMERON: Yes, she did. She got like that said night
14 she brought her there, so I said all right, I keep on
15 checking her out, you know, checking to see if she will
16 get worse, but she did not get worse, she slept like
17 a log.
18 MR SHELDON: So if a policeman or a social worker had come
19 to see you that night and asked you if you thought there
20 were problems with Victoria, what would you have said?
21 MRS CAMERON: I would have bring him in to have a look, let
22 him see with his two eyes, because maybe he might not
23 believe me. I want to say yes, to invite them in to
24 come and have a look, but she did not get worse. Maybe
25 if she had got worse, I would have done something else,
30
1 get some authority or somebody, or phone for the
2 ambulance, but she did not get worse.
3 MR SHELDON: Now we know that the next day Avril took
4 Victoria to hospital, and we have read in your statement
5 about the difficult meeting you had with Mary when she
6 came looking for Anna later that day.
7 MRS CAMERON: You missed out a piece there, guv.
8 MR SHELDON: I know I may have missed out a piece, but we
9 have got your statement and we have all read it, so
10 I really only need to ask you about a few things that
11 are not immediately clear from your statement, so we
12 have got your full account and we have all read it, but
13 there are just a few minor points that I would like to
14 clear up with you this morning.
15 After Avril got back from the hospital, and whilst
16 Mary was there, the phone rang; is that right?
17 MRS CAMERON: No, Mary came before Avril got back from the
18 hospital.
19 MR SHELDON: Right, but whilst they were both there, the
20 phone rang, did it not?
21 MRS CAMERON: Mary was not there, she had gone to get her
22 friend. She had gone to bring her Nigerian friend, and
23 the two of them came back, and the Nigerian friend told
24 me, "Mary says that you took her child and you do not
25 want to give her her child". Then I told her -- I broke
31
1 the news, I said, "She is in hospital", because Avril
2 came back without her.
3 Then she spoke to Avril and I spoke to her, and the
4 phone rang at the same time, and Avril went to the phone
5 and Avril told me it was the social worker, and she
6 mentioned that the mother is here.
7 MR SHELDON: Did you speak to that social worker?
8 MRS CAMERON: No, Avril spoke to her, not me.
9 MR SHELDON: Did you ever speak to a social worker?
10 MRS CAMERON: No.
11 MR SHELDON: Were you ever aware of a social worker trying
12 to contact you?
13 MRS CAMERON: Me? No.
14 MR SHELDON: Did you ever get a message through your door,
15 or on your phone, asking you to call a social worker?
16 MRS CAMERON: No.
17 MR SHELDON: Never? What about --
18 MRS CAMERON: The social worker do not know me, so how could
19 they contact me?
20 MR SHELDON: Did you ever talk to anybody from the
21 authorities?
22 MRS CAMERON: I have never seen a social worker, not at all,
23 not at all.
24 MR SHELDON: And you say in your statement that after
25 Victoria had gone to hospital, she came back with Mary
32
1 to collect her clothes, is that right?
2 MRS CAMERON: Not the clothes, no, she came for the child.
3 She came for the child, she did not mention clothes.
4 That is the following day she came back with the child
5 for the clothes.
6 MR SHELDON: And Victoria never came to stay with you again
7 after that, is that right?
8 MRS CAMERON: No, when she came with the child the following
9 day, she rang my bell and I answered the door, there she
10 was with the child.
11 MR SHELDON: Were you surprised to see them back together?
12 MRS CAMERON: Yes, because, "Hello Anna, are you talking to
13 me, Anna?" Maybe the mother told her not to talk to me,
14 because she would not talk to me. When Avril came,
15 I told Avril, I said, "Avril, Anna and her mother was
16 there, how did you say that -- or the doctor say that
17 she was abused, and she was being admitted in the
18 hospital, and there is a policeman in the ward?" She
19 said, "Well, Mummy, I do not know, I will get on to the
20 social service", and Avril did phone her, and she says
21 that she was not abused, some doctor said that she was
22 not abused.
23 MR SHELDON: So Avril phoned the social worker, to find out
24 why --
25 MRS CAMERON: She did phone at the same time -- why the
33
1 child was out of the hospital.
2 MR SHELDON: Did you ever go and visit the social services
3 offices at any stage?
4 MRS CAMERON: No.
5 MR SHELDON: Have you never been?
6 MRS CAMERON: No, nobody contacted me, so I did not visit.
7 I never.
8 MR SHELDON: And after you saw Victoria that time back with
9 Mary, did you continue to be worried about her?
10 MRS CAMERON: I was a bit worried. I was a bit worried,
11 I think it is about a couple of days or a week or so,
12 then that Nigerian Mary came. She said, "Granny, Anna
13 is in hospital".
14 MR SHELDON: She told you that Anna was back in hospital?
15 MRS CAMERON: Nigerian Mary. I said, "What is the matter
16 with her?" She said, "She burned herself from head to
17 toe". I said, "What?" I said "No, no. A child could
18 not burn their head to toe. They burn from the stomach,
19 either they pull down the kettle or they play with hot
20 water or something from the cooker, but she would not
21 burn her head." I said, "That woman burned that child.
22 That woman poured hot water on that child". So she
23 said, "Granny, I will go tomorrow and see how is she,
24 and I will let you know". Mary came back and she told
25 me, she said, "Granny, she is in a bad state, all her
34
1 eyes are burned". I said, "That woman will get herself
2 into big, big trouble".
3 MR SHELDON: So you thought that it was Mary who had burnt
4 Anna?
5 MRS CAMERON: Well, it has to be. It could not be the child
6 do that.
7 MR SHELDON: Did you think you should pass those concerns on
8 to anybody?
9 MRS CAMERON: No, well, I see that she is in hospital. The
10 hospital will have to look after that.
11 MR SHELDON: And after that time that Nigerian Mary came and
12 told you about the burns, did you receive any more news
13 about Victoria?
14 MRS CAMERON: No, I did not receive any more news, but I saw
15 Mary, that mother, passing my street with Anna, trotting
16 behind her. She had on a short half coat, and the hood
17 over her head. I was in my front room, and I did not
18 get to see her face.
19 MR SHELDON: I see.
20 MRS CAMERON: And that is it.
21 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much indeed, Mrs Cameron.
22 I have nothing further to ask you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Sheldon. Ms Boye?
24 MS BOYE: I do not have any questions, thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs Cameron, you have been extremely helpful.
35
1 Could I just ask you one or two other questions, please?
2 MRS CAMERON: Yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: First of all, you said that you first met
4 Anna, as you knew her, very early in 1999. Do you have
5 any idea which month that was?
6 MRS CAMERON: It is the early part of the year, but I cannot
7 remember. I really cannot, but it is early in the year,
8 because as I mentioned, she says that, "When September
9 comes, if you look after the child, keep her, the two of
10 you will get used to each other, she will learn a little
11 English from you and you will learn a little French".
12 I did laugh. Well, she says, "When September comes,
13 I will ask you to take her to school".
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Would "early" be -- without wanting to pin
15 you down, would "early" be March, April?
16 MRS CAMERON: (inaudible) early in the year.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I do not want to ask you your address, so
18 please do not give me your address, but which London
19 borough do you live in?
20 MRS CAMERON: Brent.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: You mentioned that at no time a social worker
22 contacted you.
23 MRS CAMERON: No.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Was there any time that a police officer
25 contacted you?
36
1 MRS CAMERON: No. Maybe if I had contacted the police
2 officer, if I assume that it was so serious -- if I had
3 contacted the police officer, then they would have
4 contacted me, but I did not realise it was so serious,
5 and it was going to get so bad, or else at the first
6 stage, I would have done something about it.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: But no police officer contacted you?
8 MRS CAMERON: No.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: That is very helpful. Thank you very much
10 indeed. You have been very helpful, we are very
11 grateful to you. Mr Sheldon?
12 MR SHELDON: Nothing further from me. I wonder if,
13 Mrs Cameron, I might invite you to take a seat.
14 (The witness withdrew)
15 MR GARNHAM: Sir, our next witness is Avril Cameron.
16 MS AVRIL CAMERON (sworn)
17 MR GARNHAM: Good morning.
18 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Good morning.
19 MR GARNHAM: Would you give us your full name, please?
20 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Avril Cameron.
21 MR GARNHAM: And which part of London do you live in,
22 Miss Cameron?
23 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: North-west London.
24 MR GARNHAM: Sir, Miss Cameron has provided us with
25 a statement which you will find in volume 7 of the green
37
1 bundles at page 100.505. We also have a statement she
2 made for the CPS which is in volume 46 at page 46.504,
3 and there is a transcript of the evidence she gave at
4 the Central Criminal Court in volume 47 at page 229.
5 Your statement, Miss Cameron, prepared for this
6 Inquiry; was that prepared by your solicitors? Was that
7 prepared by Imran Khan & Co?
8 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Sorry, could you broaden out, because
9 I want to answer correctly.
10 MR GARNHAM: Okay. It may be easier if I get you to look at
11 the statement, which I think is in front of you.
12 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: I wrote it out.
13 MR GARNHAM: You wrote it out, did you?
14 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes, I wrote it out, and it was typed
15 out for me.
16 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much. Do you live with your
17 mother?
18 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: For that period of time, yes, but not
19 at this moment.
20 MR GARNHAM: When did you cease living with your mother?
21 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Last year, July.
22 MR GARNHAM: I see. So throughout the period with which we
23 are concerned, you and your mother shared a home?
24 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
25 MR GARNHAM: Where there lived also, I think, your two
38
1 children?
2 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
3 MR GARNHAM: At that time, were you working or studying?
4 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: No, I was not working.
5 MR GARNHAM: How were you spending your days?
6 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Partially studying.
7 MR GARNHAM: And what was the nature of your studying?
8 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Curative administration.
9 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Did that mean you were out of the
10 house during the day?
11 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Some days.
12 MR GARNHAM: When you were out, engaged in that study work,
13 who looked after your children? Were they at school?
14 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: They were at school.
15 MR GARNHAM: What age are they?
16 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: They are now ten and twelve.
17 MR GARNHAM: So they were then eight and ten?
18 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: When they came home from school, would you
20 invariably be at home, or would your mother look after
21 them when they got back from school?
22 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: No, I picked them up from school.
23 I take them to school and I pick them up from school.
24 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. I think it is right that your
25 mother used to work as a childminder?
39
1 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: She used to assist in looking after
2 children.
3 MR GARNHAM: Yes. When did you first meet Victoria, who you
4 knew as Anna?
5 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: It was a Monday morning, very early in
6 the morning.
7 MR GARNHAM: You say in your statement prepared for this
8 Inquiry that you first met her in the early spring of
9 1999.
10 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
11 MR GARNHAM: I want to just see if we can pin that down
12 a little further, because you gave evidence on two other
13 occasions which suggested a slightly different
14 timescale. In your CPS statement, you say that you
15 first met Victoria in the late spring or early summer,
16 and when you gave evidence at the Old Bailey, you said
17 the same thing, late spring or early summer. Could that
18 be right?
19 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: I would say this because of the
20 weather, I more imagine the weather, and it is according
21 to the weather. It could have been early spring or late
22 spring.
23 MR GARNHAM: When you were cross-examined, asked some more
24 questions, at the Old Bailey, you agreed with the
25 questioner that Victoria and you first met some time in
40
1 May; do you stand by that? Do you think that is still
2 the best estimate?
3 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: I do not recall that.
4 MR GARNHAM: You do not recall saying that, or you do not
5 recall that fact?
6 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: I do not recall that fact.
7 MR GARNHAM: Do you remember saying it at the Old Bailey?
8 We are going to need to have a look at some of the
9 transcripts, so I wonder if we could have a look at this
10 passage as well. Could you have volume 47, please,
11 page 245? We will start at page 244, in fact.
12 This is you giving evidence, and you were being
13 cross-examined, and at the bottom of 244, you see the
14 question, last two lines:
15 "We know she arrived in this country from France the
16 back end of April 1999, and she was given the address of
17 6 Nicoll Road on 28th April. We have heard evidence
18 about that, you can take that date from me. If we take
19 the date of 28th April as when she moved into Nicoll
20 Road, when do you think it was that you met her?
21 "Answer: Perhaps a few -- a few weeks afterwards.
22 "Question: Probably some time in May, do you think?
23 "Answer: Yes."
24 First of all, do you remember saying that?
25 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes, it is coming back to me now as
41
1 I am reading it.
2 MR GARNHAM: Do you think that is probably right?
3 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: I think so.
4 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much. How did you come to meet
5 Victoria? What were the circumstances of the meeting?
6 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: I actually answered the door the
7 morning, and that is when I first met.
8 MR GARNHAM: And who was the other side of the door?
9 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: It was herself -- it was a little
10 person, I will say a little person at the time, and the
11 person who I know to be as Mary.
12 MR GARNHAM: Yes. Did you discover how they came to be at
13 your door?
14 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
15 MR GARNHAM: And what did you learn?
16 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: I learned that Mary had come to see my
17 mother over the weekend, asking if my mother could help
18 her out by looking after Victoria.
19 MR GARNHAM: Was that the first time you had met Mary, the
20 woman we know as Kouao?
21 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Meeting face-to-face, yes. I had seen
22 her -- well not exactly see her, but I was there when
23 she came the Saturday.
24 MR GARNHAM: On that occasion on the Saturday, you did not
25 see her, but did you overhear a conversation?
42
1 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes, I overheard a conversation.
2 MR GARNHAM: A conversation taking place between your mother
3 and Ms Kouao?
4 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: Prior to that, had you ever seen Ms Kouao
6 before?
7 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: No.
8 MR GARNHAM: Do you know where she lived?
9 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Prior to that, no, but she told us that
10 she lived a couple of doors away.
11 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. What did you learn from the
12 conversation you overheard about the arrangements that
13 were being made between your mother and Kouao?
14 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: That she was here for a while, she was
15 going to go to college, to learn English, and she needed
16 to have her child to be looked after, and if it is
17 possible, for my mum to look after Anna.
18 MR GARNHAM: And did your mother agree?
19 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: At first, she did not.
20 MR GARNHAM: But with a little persuasion, she did?
21 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes, she did.
22 MR GARNHAM: You say in the second sentence of your
23 statement, that I hope is still in front of you --
24 I think you are going to be handed it. It is
25 page 100.505. You say in that second sentence:
43
1 "She was brought by her 'mother' who was known as
2 'Mary' to my mother Priscilla to take and collect her
3 from school each day ..."
4 To your knowledge, did Victoria ever go to school
5 during the time she was with your mother?
6 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: No, she did not.
7 MR GARNHAM: But you understood that was proposed as
8 something that would happen in the future?
9 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: In fact, your mother looked after Victoria
11 during the day periodically from then onwards.
12 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
13 MR GARNHAM: Was your mother looking after Victoria every
14 day, or was it only some days a week?
15 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: It was some days. It was -- yes, it
16 was some days, because there were some days that they
17 did not turn up, and as far as I know, there was not any
18 prior warning that they would not turn up the next day.
19 MR GARNHAM: So had the arrangement been that your mother
20 would look after Victoria every day, but the reality was
21 that Victoria was not brought to her every day?
22 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: That is right, yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: Between what sort of times was Victoria left
24 with your mother?
25 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Pretty early in the morning. Sometimes
44
1 it would be about 6.00, 6.30, sometimes 7.00.
2 MR GARNHAM: And what would be the latest in the morning
3 that she would be left?
4 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: 7.00.
5 MR GARNHAM: 7.00 am?
6 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
7 MR GARNHAM: And when would she be picked up at the end of
8 the day?
9 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Sometimes 5.00, sometimes 7.00.
10 MR GARNHAM: So it could be as long as 12 hours?
11 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: It could be as long as that.
12 MR GARNHAM: How long did those arrangements carry on? How
13 long was Victoria being brought to your mother's?
14 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: A few good weeks. I cannot really say
15 how long, but it was a few good weeks.
16 MR GARNHAM: You said in your CPS statement that she came
17 over a period of three weeks; would that be right?
18 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: It could have been. I think it was
19 longer. I am not really sure now.
20 MR GARNHAM: When you gave evidence at the Old Bailey, you
21 were asked:
22 "How many occasions in total do you think you saw
23 Anna?"
24 Sir, for your note, it is bundle 47, page 234.
25 "Question: How many occasions in total do you think
45
1 you saw Anna?
2 "Answer: On and off, it was a three-week period.
3 "Question: How many times?
4 "Answer: About nine or ten times."
5 Do you think that is right, or is that
6 an underestimate?
7 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: I think at the time it was
8 an underestimate. I think it was a bit longer time.
9 MR GARNHAM: So looking back now, how long would you say
10 that Victoria stayed with your mother, how many weeks?
11 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: It would have been about eight or nine
12 weeks, about that.
13 MR GARNHAM: So your estimate then was quite a long way out?
14 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
15 MR GARNHAM: We are going to hear in a moment about how you
16 ended up taking Victoria to hospital, but I want just to
17 try and tie down the evidence relating to the period of
18 time that Victoria was with your mother, so I wonder if
19 I could ask you to have a look at the hospital notes:
20 volume 37, page 24, please. This is in the handwriting
21 of the doctor who you spoke to when you were at the
22 Central Middlesex Hospital, and you can see about three
23 lines down from the top of that page the doctor has
24 written:
25 "A month ago, Anna's mum came knocking on the
46
1 Camerons' door, Saturday evening, desperate to leave
2 Anna with somebody for the following Monday.
3 Arrangements were made for a sum of money, started on
4 the ..." I cannot read that. It goes on: "She said she
5 was starting English classes", and underneath that the
6 doctor has written the details of the five weeks:
7 "First week: Monday to Saturday. Second week:
8 Monday to Friday. Third week: Monday to Thursday.
9 Fourth week: Monday to Wednesday. Fifth week [just]
10 Tuesday night."
11 That on the face of it would seem to support what
12 you said at the criminal trial, that Victoria was with
13 you for three -- this suggests four weeks, but rather
14 less than nine weeks. Is that possibly right? (Pause).
15 If you cannot say, tell us you cannot say.
16 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: I cannot say really.
17 MR GARNHAM: Very well, thank you. When you first met
18 Victoria and Kouao, how did the two of them get on? How
19 did they interreact?
20 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: They seemed rather strange.
21 MR GARNHAM: In what way?
22 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Well, Marie -- sorry, Marie every so
23 often was telling her off.
24 MR GARNHAM: I do not suppose there are many parents who do
25 not occasionally tell off their children. Was there
47
1 something that was noticeable about that?
2 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Well, she would stand over the child
3 and point down at her and say, "You are a very wicked,
4 wicked, wicked, wicked girl". I myself have two boys,
5 and they do lead me a dance at times, and I do get mad
6 at them, but not the way she was really mad at this
7 girl.
8 MR GARNHAM: Because she was more aggressive?
9 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes, a lot more aggressive. It would
10 be -- she would start off with English, but then
11 I suppose as she is more comfortable in her mother
12 tongue, she goes into the mother tongue and suddenly
13 I do not know what is being said, but the arm movements
14 and the way she is carrying on, it was really tough
15 going.
16 MR GARNHAM: Did you ever challenge Marie-Therese about
17 that?
18 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: No, I never did.
19 MR GARNHAM: Did you ever speak to Victoria about the
20 relationship she had with her mother, as you understood
21 it to be?
22 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: No.
23 MR GARNHAM: What was your own relationship with Victoria
24 like, when you saw her in your mother's house?
25 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Well, when I see her, I know one or two
48
1 French, and I will say good morning to her, and she will
2 look up and beam, and she will say good morning back in
3 French. There are times she might want something to
4 drink, and she will take me to the kitchen and point to
5 the fridge, and when I open the fridge, and I will say
6 to her, "What do you want?", and she will point to me
7 a drink or something. The odd time when there is music
8 playing, she will be dancing and singing. All in all,
9 quite a happy child at the time.
10 MR GARNHAM: Did you feel you were building up
11 a relationship of trust with Victoria? Were you getting
12 close to her?
13 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes, I suppose I was.
14 MR GARNHAM: Did she confide in you at all about how she and
15 Kouao got on?
16 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: No, because again, it was difficult to
17 speak to her, because of the fact of the language
18 barrier.
19 MR GARNHAM: Yes. You tell us in your statement that Kouao
20 brought a letter for you to read to her and to explain
21 to her.
22 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: Could you be shown, please, volume 5 of the
24 black bundles, page 199? While that is being found for
25 you, why did she need you to read? Could she not read
49
1 English?
2 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: From my understanding, she could not --
3 she could read some English, but not a lot, and --
4 MR GARNHAM: So you helped her?
5 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Going back to her story, she said she
6 did come to learn English, so I thought it was normal
7 that -- for her to come to me to read her a letter.
8 MR GARNHAM: If you look at page 199, I wonder whether you
9 could tell me if that is the letter; do you remember?
10 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
11 MR GARNHAM: That was the letter, was it?
12 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: That was the letter.
13 MR GARNHAM: What was Kouao's reaction when you read that
14 letter to her, telling her that social services were not
15 going to go on supporting her?
16 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: She was very upset. She did say to me
17 that she is here to learn English, and she needed the
18 financial backing for that.
19 MR GARNHAM: The letter went on to suggest that the social
20 services might provide return tickets for Kouao and
21 Victoria to go back to France. What was Kouao's
22 reaction to you reading that to her?
23 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: She was quite upset, she said she did
24 not want that, she really wanted to stay to go to
25 college.
50
1 MR GARNHAM: During your conversations with Kouao during
2 that period of weeks, did she ever complain to you about
3 the state of Nicoll Road, the premises she was living
4 in?
5 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Not to me personally.
6 MR GARNHAM: I wonder if you could pick up volume 47 again,
7 or if you could be helped to find that, please. I just
8 want to see if I can refresh your memory. This again is
9 part of the transcript of the criminal trial, page 266.
10 Opposite the letter E on the left-hand side of the page,
11 you will see a question:
12 "Nicoll Road, you have told us about that. You told
13 my learned friend that you were aware that that was
14 accommodation provided by Ealing Council. You knew that
15 it was a pretty squalid place, did you not?
16 "Answer: I have never been in there."
17 Do you remember this?
18 MISS AVRIL CAMERON: Yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: "Question: Did she not tell you about it?
20 "Answer: Afterwards, when she told us about it,
21 then we realised how bad it was in there.
22 "Question: Because she did complain to you about
23 the conditions at Nicoll Road, did she not?
24 "Answer: Yes."
25 Do you remember that now?
|
