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Archived Transcript for 4 October 2001: Pages
1 to 50
1
1 Thursday, 4th October 2001
2 (10.00 am)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Mr Garnham?
5 MR GARNHAM: Good morning, sir. Firstly to housekeeping
6 matters. Firstly, you will recall that during the
7 course of the evidence on Tuesday, I asked if Ealing
8 could make available to the Inquiry the documents they
9 had used for manual tracking purposes in relation to
10 this case. I am very grateful to Ealing that at the end
11 of yesterday, they did indeed fax those to us, and we
12 have copied them and will circulate them for inclusion
13 in the bundles.
14 I should perhaps say, sir, that we were a little
15 disappointed that we had to ask for those. They are the
16 sort of documents that ought, ordinarily, to be
17 disclosed to the Inquiry in the ordinary course, but we
18 have them now, and we are content with that, sir.
19 The second matter of housekeeping concerns the
20 translation of the Climbies' evidence last week. I have
21 received, sir, some written representations on that
22 subject, and also a number of representatives of the
23 interested parties have spoken to me about it. Not all
24 of those representations go the same way, sir, and I am
25 anxious that we do what is both fair to the interested
2
1 parties and ensures that we get as accurate a version of
2 the evidence that Mr and Mrs Climbie wanted to give as
3 possible.
4 In order to meet those twin objectives, sir, I would
5 invite all interested parties who have not yet given us
6 written representations on the subject to do so by the
7 close of business on Monday. We will then consider,
8 sir, and make submissions to you as to the proper way in
9 which to handle this matter.
10 If it necessitates the recall of the Climbies --
11 about which I say nothing for the moment -- we will then
12 have to consider how to obtain a translator who is of
13 the correct qualification, but, sir, if I can ask any
14 who have spoken to me about that if they would be kind
15 enough to reduce it to writing, so we can be sure we
16 have the views of all those who are concerned about this
17 matter.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: I am grateful to you, Mr Garnham. I am very
19 content for that to happen.
20 MR GARNHAM: Sir, thank you. I will ask Ms Gibson to take
21 our first two witnesses today.
22 MS GIBSON: Yes, sir, if I could call Sharmain Lawrence to
23 give her evidence first?
24 MS SHARMAIN LAWRENCE (sworn)
25 MS GIBSON: Thank you, Ms Lawrence. Could you begin by
3
1 giving the court your full name and professional
2 address?
3 MS LAWRENCE: I am Sharmain Lawrence and my professional
4 address is Acton Town Hall, Acton, London, W3.
5 MS GIBSON: Thank you. You have made two statements for
6 this Inquiry; the first is found at volume 1, page 185
7 of the witness bundle and the second at page 189.
8 Perhaps you could just have a look at those and confirm
9 that those are the statements you made, and that the
10 contents of those two statements are true to the best of
11 your knowledge and belief.
12 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, they are.
13 MS GIBSON: Thank you. You say in your statement that you
14 qualified in 1994, and you came to Ealing in February of
15 1999.
16 MS LAWRENCE: That is correct.
17 MS GIBSON: And you came to Ealing as a senior practitioner.
18 MS LAWRENCE: That is right.
19 MS GIBSON: Was that your first job, that posting as senior
20 practitioner?
21 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, it was.
22 MS GIBSON: And prior to that you had worked at Westminster.
23 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
24 MS GIBSON: Was Westminster a very different kind of borough
25 to work in, compared to Ealing?
4
1 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, it was, in that resources were widely
2 available, practice standards were better.
3 MS GIBSON: What was the problem with practice standards at
4 Ealing?
5 MS LAWRENCE: I think it was, you know, very well --
6 nationally documented that Ealing were struggling and
7 were on special measures. They had had a poor
8 inspection in 1997, and the practice there was very,
9 very baseline.
10 MS GIBSON: Again, looking at what you found when you
11 arrived in Ealing, and what preparation you were given,
12 did you have any induction when you arrived?
13 MS LAWRENCE: No, I did not.
14 MS GIBSON: Whose responsibility would it have been to
15 organise induction for you?
16 MS LAWRENCE: It would have been my team manager's
17 responsibility.
18 MS GIBSON: Was there any particular reason why no induction
19 was arranged that you were made aware of?
20 MS LAWRENCE: I am not aware of any particular reason.
21 MS GIBSON: Did that cause problems for you in your practice
22 in the initial stages at Ealing?
23 MS LAWRENCE: Well, I think I had to take -- I took a lot of
24 time to get to know and to get to understand practices
25 and processes that were in operation in Ealing.
5
1 MS GIBSON: Now we know in Ealing that the Referral and
2 Assessment Team that you were working in was quite a new
3 creation; is that right?
4 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
5 MS GIBSON: Had you personally had experience in working in
6 a referral and assessment team before?
7 MS LAWRENCE: I had not had experience of working in
8 a specialist referral and assessment team. I had had
9 experience of carrying out duty from a generic team in
10 Westminster, and in Hackney where I had worked
11 previously as well.
12 MS GIBSON: Again, looking at what you found when you
13 arrived in Ealing, were the workloads that that team
14 were experiencing at the time very high?
15 MS LAWRENCE: Certainly the referrals that were on duty,
16 there was a very high number of referrals in cases open
17 to the duty system. That I had never experienced.
18 MS GIBSON: Sarah Stollard spoke of there being about 200
19 cases on the go in the duty system; would that be your
20 experience?
21 MS LAWRENCE: I could not give specific figures, but it
22 certainly felt like that.
23 MS GIBSON: And were there many cases of people coming from
24 abroad that you were having to deal with?
25 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, there was.
6
1 MS GIBSON: And what effect did that have on your
2 department?
3 MS LAWRENCE: I think there was -- the difficulty was that
4 there were not very clear protocols and guidance for
5 dealing with people that were presenting from abroad,
6 and presenting as homeless, and quite often, I felt that
7 people were left to rely on, you know, professional
8 judgment.
9 MS GIBSON: At that time -- I think Pamela Fortune in her
10 evidence estimated that about 60 to 70 per cent of the
11 case load was people from abroad. Would that accord
12 with your experience?
13 MS LAWRENCE: I cannot recall. It may well have been
14 Pamela's experience, in terms of her case load. There
15 certainly was a high volume of people or referrals where
16 people were presenting from abroad, as unaccompanied
17 minors and people who had failed the habitual residence
18 rest.
19 MS GIBSON: Would it be accurate to say that at this time,
20 your department was swamped with these people who were
21 presenting predominantly with housing issues?
22 MS LAWRENCE: It felt like that.
23 MS GIBSON: And I think as you said before, there was no
24 clear guidance of how to deal with that.
25 MS LAWRENCE: No, not that I was aware of.
7
1 MS GIBSON: Can I just ask you now about the systems in
2 place for monitoring cases? Were you aware of the
3 tracking system operated by Sarah Stollard?
4 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, I was.
5 MS GIBSON: Were you involved in working with that system
6 yourself, or did she operate the system?
7 MS LAWRENCE: I was involved in working with that system.
8 MS GIBSON: I wonder if we could have on the screen a copy
9 from the tracking on this particular case. It is
10 a document headed "7th June 1999, Referral and
11 Assessment Duty Referrals".
12 We see there a reference to:
13 "Kouao, 11 Twyford Crescent.
14 "Type of referral: Homeless.
15 "Date of referral: 26th April."
16 Then if we could have the next sheet dated
17 14th June; again, reference to:
18 "Kouao, 11 Twyford Crescent.
19 Type of referral"; what do you understand by that?
20 MS LAWRENCE: Housing.
21 MS GIBSON: If we could now have the next sheet, 23rd June?
22 Again down as housing. Just looking above that, there
23 is another case, "CIN". What does that mean?
24 MS LAWRENCE: Child in need.
25 MS GIBSON: And "CP" is child protection, presumably?
8
1 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
2 MS GIBSON: Then finally, 29th June:
3 "Kouao, 6 Nicoll Road [now].
4 "Type of referral"?
5 MS LAWRENCE: Housing/child in need.
6 MS GIBSON: So by that stage the case had changed by 29th
7 June from being simply a housing matter to a child in
8 need matter, looking at that sheet.
9 MS LAWRENCE: I suppose it was a child in need matter, you
10 know, throughout, the child in need had just been added
11 on that particular date.
12 MS GIBSON: Well looking down, we see other cases are
13 referred to simply as housing, for example the one below
14 that looks like it is a housing referral, and then the
15 one two up from the bottom, "HSG", housing. How did you
16 distinguish between cases that were housing and cases
17 that were children in need cases?
18 MS LAWRENCE: Well, there were housing and child in need
19 cases.
20 MS GIBSON: Again looking back at the referral involving
21 Kouao, "Action needed". For the first time on that
22 sheet we see "Allocation". So it looks, looking on
23 these sheets, that by 29th June the case had changed
24 from being simply one of housing to being a housing case
25 with child in need concerns.
9
1 MS LAWRENCE: I do not think that the fact that "child in
2 need" has been added is of any significance
3 particularly, because I would certainly have viewed the
4 case as a child in need case, a child in need of
5 housing.
6 MS GIBSON: How do you distinguish between cases which are
7 simply housing cases and cases where there might be more
8 generalised concerns about the child, on this system?
9 MS LAWRENCE: Well, there is not a way on that system to
10 distinguish.
11 MS GIBSON: And again, we have seen the sheets; presumably
12 those were the totality of cases that you were dealing
13 with on the tracking system.
14 MS LAWRENCE: That particular sheet is not the totality.
15 MS GIBSON: Well, the ones we have looked at, going from
16 7th June, 14th, 23rd, 29th; a weekly sheet.
17 MS LAWRENCE: I think the forms were not used as fully as
18 they could have been or should have been, because it was
19 very difficult to use them -- or to enter referrals on
20 that on a daily basis. I certainly found it very
21 difficult.
22 MS GIBSON: But presumably, those sheets for those four
23 weeks do not show the total number of housing cases that
24 you are dealing with, as a department. There must be
25 many, many more than that.
10
1 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, there would have been.
2 MS GIBSON: So why do some cases find their way into this
3 tracking system?
4 MS LAWRENCE: I would have to say that it was not
5 a particularly good tracking system, and that I did not
6 find it particularly easy to use, and we were dealing
7 with -- I mean, Sarah Stollard gave us some idea of the
8 volume of work we were dealing with, and it was
9 impossible to record all activity on those forms on
10 a daily basis.
11 MS GIBSON: Would the cases that appear on those sheets be
12 the cases where there were more concerns than many --
13 the vast volume of cases you were dealing with?
14 MS LAWRENCE: I would not say so.
15 MS GIBSON: So why would some cases end up in this system,
16 and others not? What was the distinction?
17 MS LAWRENCE: There was not a distinction as such, it is
18 just the way it is on this particular sheet. I have
19 explained that I personally found it difficult to record
20 on that sheet, on a daily basis, all the activity there
21 was on the duty system.
22 MS GIBSON: Would you agree that this system, or lack of
23 system, led to fairly chaotic practice in the office?
24 MS LAWRENCE: I think that I personally would say that the
25 duty system itself was not, you know, a very tight one.
11
1 MS GIBSON: How often would cases be reviewed on this
2 system?
3 MS LAWRENCE: Well every time a case -- a referral came in,
4 you would obviously log on that system, and every time
5 a social worker had carried out actions, or completed
6 actions, it would be passed back to the duty manager
7 basket, and when the duty manager went through the
8 basket, would log on this paper tool.
9 MS GIBSON: Just looking now at the supervision you received
10 as someone who was quite new in the department, was the
11 supervision you received from your team manager,
12 Sarah Stollard, adequate?
13 MS LAWRENCE: Not at that time, no, it was not.
14 MS GIBSON: Did you do anything to refer your concerns about
15 this to higher management?
16 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, I did.
17 MS GIBSON: Did you consider that their response to your
18 concerns was adequate?
19 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, it was.
20 MS GIBSON: What was done to improve supervision?
21 MS LAWRENCE: Well, the operations manager at the time,
22 Judith Finlay, spoke with my manager, Sarah Stollard, at
23 that time, and she arranged for supervision to take
24 place.
25 MS GIBSON: I just want to look at the system that was
12
1 working, with you working one week as the duty team
2 manager and Sarah Stollard working the following week as
3 the team manager. There must have been considerable
4 scope in that system for confusion, unless you had
5 a very good working relationship.
6 MS LAWRENCE: There was a handover process that should take
7 place on a weekly basis, and the outgoing manager would
8 highlight any particular concerning cases to the
9 incoming manager, and then we could refer to that
10 logging system.
11 MS GIBSON: Just turning now to Victoria's case, who was
12 actually managing Victoria's case?
13 MS LAWRENCE: The case was being managed on the duty system.
14 MS GIBSON: What does that mean? Who was responsible?
15 MS LAWRENCE: No one of us were responsible for management
16 or supervision of that case, because it was a case that
17 was open to the duty system, so it would be managed if
18 it came to our attention on the week that we were on
19 duty.
20 MS GIBSON: What would happen if there was a difference of
21 opinion between you about how the case should be
22 handled?
23 MS LAWRENCE: Well, we would talk about it, but ultimately,
24 Sarah was my line manager, so decisions would be taken
25 at her level, and, you know, if I had strong views about
13
1 the decision, and I felt, for example, that the safety
2 of a child might be compromised, I would have taken that
3 to the senior manager.
4 MS GIBSON: Can I just now look at your particular
5 involvement in this case? We know that there is
6 an entry on the file by you some time between 11th May
7 and 24th May, it is not a dated entry; that appears --
8 if we could have volume 5, page 171? Do you accept that
9 that entry is not signed or dated?
10 MS LAWRENCE: I think my name appears at the bottom.
11 MS GIBSON: Yes, sorry, but not dated?
12 MS LAWRENCE: No, it is not dated.
13 MS GIBSON: Do you accept that is a shortfall?
14 MS LAWRENCE: Absolutely, yes.
15 MS GIBSON: I just want you to actually read through what is
16 written there.
17 MS LAWRENCE: "This lady came to England to learn English.
18 She has no connection with this country and has been
19 found not habitually resident, so is entitled to no
20 benefits. She has a 17-year old, a 16-year old and
21 a 7-year old. She intends to return to France for two
22 other children in June (I do not know how). She has no
23 skills and has made clear she has a~two-year plan to be
24 in this country. She has not even sought assistance
25 from a solicitor yet. I advised her to do so yesterday.
14
1 What do we do with this case? There will inevitably be
2 a long-term financial implication for this department if
3 she remains."
4 MS GIBSON: Just looking at that entry, it seems that -- you
5 are saying, "What are we going to do with this case?"
6 What did you mean by that?
7 MS LAWRENCE: As I said before, there was no specific
8 guidance around how we approached cases or referrals
9 where the presenting issue was homelessness or
10 destitution, and there was no particular assessment
11 framework for approaching the case.
12 MS GIBSON: But this case was not quite the ordinary case
13 that you were dealing with, simply with housing issues,
14 because you have noted some of your other concerns about
15 the case there, the fact that she has children in
16 France, and intends to return.
17 MS LAWRENCE: Was that a question?
18 MS GIBSON: Yes.
19 MS LAWRENCE: What was the question?
20 MS GIBSON: Well, it seems looking at that that there are
21 issues around this case that go beyond the simple case
22 of housing. The fact that she has come to England, has
23 this two-year plan to stay, has other children in France
24 she is going to bring over. It was not quite the
25 average case that you were dealing with.
15
1 MS LAWRENCE: Well, it was not the average case, because
2 she, she did come from France and she did have a family,
3 or part of her family were in France.
4 MS GIBSON: Did you not think it was appropriate to explore
5 why she had left some of her family in France?
6 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, I did think it was appropriate to explore
7 that.
8 MS GIBSON: And what did you do to do that?
9 MS LAWRENCE: Well, I think on the -- I mean, further to
10 this recording, I suggest that an assessment needs to be
11 carried out.
12 MS GIBSON: And what sort of assessment did you envisage?
13 MS LAWRENCE: Well, I suppose a full assessment, a family
14 assessment, but I think that -- I accept that the focus
15 was on the presenting issue, which was that the family
16 were homeless, were not eligible for benefits, and --
17 sorry, I have just got --
18 MS GIBSON: You said you wanted a full assessment. What
19 format would that assessment have taken?
20 MS LAWRENCE: Well, the team had devised a brief, a short
21 assessment format to use for this particular type of
22 case.
23 MS GIBSON: For this particular type of case, but you just
24 said you wanted a full assessment of this case. Were
25 you talking about using your second core form to assess
16
1 family relationships, and look in more depth at this
2 particular case?
3 MS LAWRENCE: No, I do not think -- I cannot recall what
4 I was thinking at that time, to be quite honest.
5 MS GIBSON: Presumably when you made that entry on the file,
6 you had updated yourself on the other information in the
7 file up to that point.
8 MS LAWRENCE: I would have thought I did, yes.
9 MS GIBSON: Would that be your usual practice, to read
10 through what had gone before?
11 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, certainly the last few recordings, to get
12 an idea of where things were at.
13 MS GIBSON: Did you ever actually discuss this case with
14 Julie Winter?
15 MS LAWRENCE: No, I did not.
16 MS GIBSON: Can you look at the core form at volume 5,
17 page 218? In that form, at the top, we see that
18 Julie Winter was asking for someone to undertake
19 an assessment of Victoria's needs. It is quite clear --
20 well, looking at that form, it looks like she wants
21 an assessment of the child's needs, not a housing
22 assessment.
23 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, that is right.
24 MS GIBSON: That is the information you had. We know that
25 Ms Winter actually meant something different by that
17
1 from her evidence, but what you were looking at was the
2 fact that the person from the Homeless Persons Unit
3 wanted a child focused assessment. Did you ever think
4 it was worth contacting Ms Winter to find out what
5 exactly she wanted?
6 MS LAWRENCE: No, I did not, at that time, no.
7 MS GIBSON: It may have been that she had concerns about
8 Victoria, for all that you knew, that would warrant
9 assessment.
10 MS LAWRENCE: If Ms Winter had concerns about that child,
11 she would have conveyed that when she was referring the
12 case.
13 MS GIBSON: You had only been at Ealing since February.
14 MS LAWRENCE: That is correct.
15 MS GIBSON: It relies a lot on her system -- the human
16 response to that.
17 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, but if she had concerns, I assume she
18 would have transferred that concern. As it happens, no
19 concern was transferred about Victoria particularly.
20 MS GIBSON: But you did not think it was worth exploring
21 with her directly what she meant by an assessment of
22 Victoria's needs?
23 MS LAWRENCE: The referral was taken in April, and I think
24 this entry of mine is in May. I did not think to
25 explore further what she meant by that.
18
1 MS GIBSON: And did you think it was worth exploring further
2 what she meant by the fact that Kouao was destitute?
3 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
4 MS GIBSON: Well, did you explore that with her?
5 MS LAWRENCE: That was explored. I accept that the
6 assessment was focused on the presenting issue, which
7 was the homelessness, and should have been focused on
8 Victoria's needs, and I fully accept that.
9 MS GIBSON: Right. Again, looking at that first entry by
10 you in the file, you are concerned there with long-term
11 financial implications for the department. To what
12 extent, in your role, were you concerned with budgeting
13 issues?
14 MS LAWRENCE: Well, I was not responsible for any budgeting
15 as such. Obviously I was budget-aware, but I was not
16 responsible for any particular budget.
17 MS GIBSON: Was there any pressure to process these type of
18 housing cases quickly through the system?
19 MS LAWRENCE: There was not pressure, but I suppose you
20 would be conscious that, you know, a case like this
21 would have financial implications, and possibly
22 long-term, if the habitual residence situation was not
23 resolved.
24 MS GIBSON: We see that you spoke about the case to
25 Judith Finlay, possibly John Skinner, from that, that
19
1 you wanted to discuss the case. Do you recall your
2 discussions with either of them about it?
3 MS LAWRENCE: I cannot recall the discussions with either
4 Judith or John, if you are referring to that particular
5 entry. I cannot recall -- I believe I did speak to
6 John Skinner and Judith.
7 MS GIBSON: And would it have been good practice for you to
8 record the outcome of any discussion?
9 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, it would have been.
10 MS GIBSON: Can you help us with whether the discussion that
11 you intended there, looking back at 5/171 -- was that
12 intended to be a discussion about the financial
13 implications, or a discussion about the case?
14 MS LAWRENCE: That would have been a discussion about the
15 case and the financial --
16 MS GIBSON: I mean, was it normal for you to discuss these
17 housing cases with senior management?
18 MS LAWRENCE: I would have spoken to the team manager prior
19 to speaking to any senior manager, if she was available.
20 I have not recorded that I would have spoken to her in
21 this particular recording, but I would not have gone
22 directly to either Judith Finlay or John Skinner on any
23 of the cases, unless Sarah Stollard was not available.
24 MS GIBSON: So would it be usual for you to discuss
25 a housing case with your manager, be it Sarah Stollard
20
1 or someone higher up the scale? Because it seems that
2 you were dealing with these cases day in, day out.
3 MS LAWRENCE: I think where there were financial
4 implications for the department, and long-term financial
5 implications, it would require discussion with senior
6 management via my team manager.
7 MS GIBSON: But presumably all of these housing cases would
8 have financial implications.
9 MS LAWRENCE: Not all of them, and some of them would have
10 been more easily resolved than others.
11 MS GIBSON: But if you have a large number of people coming
12 from abroad seeking housing, that is something that
13 requires use of local authority resources. Why was it
14 in this case that you approached senior management?
15 MS LAWRENCE: I may have, or Sarah may have approached
16 senior management on many other of the homeless cases,
17 but we are actually dealing with this particular case at
18 this time.
19 (10.30 am)
20 MS GIBSON: But given that this was a problem which you were
21 dealing with, Pamela Fortune estimated that 60 to 70 per
22 cent of your cases were housing type cases, I do not see
23 why there was a need in this particular case --
24 MS LAWRENCE: As senior practitioner I would not have been
25 able to make a decision that had a major financial
21
1 implication for the department. I would not have been
2 able to make that decision, so it would have warranted a
3 discussion with my team manager and my team manager
4 would have needed to have discussed it with a senior
5 manager, not because of the homelessness, but because of
6 the financial implications.
7 MS GIBSON: We know that there were some difficulties, and
8 I do not want to go into the detail of that, but in your
9 relationship with Sarah Stollard. Did that affect your
10 handling of this particular case?
11 MS LAWRENCE: No, it did not.
12 MS GIBSON: Can we now look at page 5/168? At the bottom of
13 that page, is that your recording?
14 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, it is.
15 MS GIBSON: And again, do you accept that that recording is
16 not signed or dated?
17 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, I do.
18 MS GIBSON: Just looking at that -- perhaps you can read
19 that again for us.
20 MS LAWRENCE: "Sarah's review of the case suggests if no
21 further contact close. However, client's solicitors
22 have made contact. Ms Kouao has been asked to leave
23 Nicoll Road and is homeless again. no thorough
24 assessment has been carried out as yet. Case needs to
25 be short-term allocated for assessment. It may be that
22
1 we need to consider paying for return tickets to
2 France."
3 MS GIBSON: Would it be usual practice for housing cases to
4 be allocated?
5 MS LAWRENCE: No, it would not have been.
6 MS GIBSON: So what was the purpose of allocation in this
7 case?
8 MS LAWRENCE: I think there appeared to have been some drift
9 in that although there was a process of information
10 gathering, and there was information recorded on the
11 file, the assessment format that we were using at the
12 time had not been used, and I felt that it needed to
13 come off the duty system, and be given to one worker to
14 carry out that task.
15 MS GIBSON: You were talking there about thorough
16 assessment. What did you mean by "thorough assessment"?
17 MS LAWRENCE: The assessment format that we were using at
18 that time.
19 MS GIBSON: We will look at that a little later, but you did
20 not mean by that that there should have been a proper
21 assessment of Victoria's needs?
22 MS LAWRENCE: I actually meant that we should go through the
23 assessment format that we had at that time.
24 MS GIBSON: When you made that particular note, would you
25 have looked through the file to see what else had been
23
1 going on in the case?
2 MS LAWRENCE: I think the reason why I recorded that, or the
3 file came to my attention on that day, was because
4 a solicitor's letter was received, and I would have
5 looked at the file to see what had happened, looked at
6 the latest recordings, and wrote that down as
7 a recommendation to be followed up, really, with an
8 allocation.
9 MS GIBSON: Why would the receipt of a solicitor's letter
10 alter your approach to dealing with this case? Why did
11 that precipitate the need for a thorough assessment?
12 MS LAWRENCE: I do not necessarily think that changed my
13 opinion, because my view was that the assessment format
14 that we had needed to be completed. That solicitor's
15 letter drew my attention to the fact that it had not
16 been carried out.
17 MS GIBSON: Was the actual format that you were using for
18 people who had failed the habitual residence test what
19 you would describe as a thorough assessment?
20 MS LAWRENCE: No, it was not, and I am saying that in
21 hindsight.
22 MS GIBSON: Perhaps if we could just have a look at that
23 particular form, it appears at 177. If we just go
24 through the form -- did you look at this form when you
25 were dealing with the case? Would you have gone through
24
1 it with Pamela Fortune?
2 MS LAWRENCE: No, I did not.
3 MS GIBSON: Do you accept that that was a shortfall?
4 MS LAWRENCE: I accept that that was a shortfall.
5 MS GIBSON: You told Judith Finlay subsequently that the
6 case had been thoroughly assessed. What did you do to
7 check that that had happened?
8 MS LAWRENCE: I had been informed by Pamela that it had been
9 carried out, and I informed Judith Finlay that it had.
10 I accept that I should have actually looked at that form
11 and signed it off, and ensured that it was completed
12 before I reported to Judith Finlay.
13 MS GIBSON: So just looking at that form -- just look at
14 what you would have learnt about the case if you had
15 read it. It gives information on the employment section
16 that Kouao had been a manager at an airport. Would that
17 have been something that may have caused you some
18 concern in the context of this case?
19 MS LAWRENCE: I think, had I looked at that form, I would
20 have -- and I believe that that form -- well, I was not
21 presented with the form, but had I looked at that form
22 at that time, I would have passed it back to the social
23 worker who had completed it, and said that it needs to
24 be more fully completed.
25 MS GIBSON: So the problem would just be that the form was
25
1 not filled in properly, or would it be something in the
2 information in that form that might cause you to be
3 concerned about this case?
4 MS LAWRENCE: It would be that the form had not been
5 completed fully or properly. It would not be that
6 anything in the form that is written there would have
7 caused me any particular concern.
8 MS GIBSON: Well, just look at what information you have by
9 this stage. You have a woman who has come to England,
10 living in a bed and breakfast hostel, with a young child
11 in her care; yes? And she has left some siblings behind
12 in France. You do not fully know the circumstances of
13 why she has left some of her other children behind, do
14 you?
15 MS LAWRENCE: Like I have said, if I had received this
16 form -- and I am trying to look through it quickly, in
17 terms of what information is on there -- I would have
18 handed it back to the social worker and said, "Could you
19 complete the form more fully?", and there may well have
20 been more information that was required, and I did not
21 look at the form.
22 MS GIBSON: Perhaps if you just look at the form now.
23 (Pause). You have had a look through that now?
24 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
25 MS GIBSON: So we have the information that she is a manager
26
1 at an airport. Given that this is a woman who is
2 presenting herself to you as someone who is staying in
3 a bed and breakfast hostel, having left France, would
4 that piece of information not concern you?
5 MS LAWRENCE: Not particularly. I cannot -- no. I cannot
6 say that it would at this time.
7 MS GIBSON: Would you not think it would be appropriate to
8 question why someone who claimed to be a manager at
9 an airport had ended up living in bed and breakfast
10 accommodation, with no good plans, running out of money?
11 MS LAWRENCE: No, it would not have done. It would not have
12 caused me to question why she was in accommodation in
13 a bed and breakfast.
14 MS GIBSON: Do you not regard it as being your role to look
15 at the circumstances -- you are assessing the situation,
16 you are supposed to be assessing the child's needs. Is
17 it not part of your role to critically analyse
18 information that is presented to you?
19 MS LAWRENCE: The fact that she claimed to be a manager at
20 an airport, and was residing in a bed and breakfast, is
21 not of any particular significance. She may well have
22 chosen to reside in bed and breakfast accommodation.
23 MS GIBSON: Well, she has come down in the world then
24 considerably if she has moved from being a manager at
25 an airport to living in bed and breakfast accommodation.
27
1 MS LAWRENCE: I suppose -- I do not know, it would depend on
2 the standard of the bed and breakfast accommodation. It
3 may well have been part of a flight deal or something.
4 MS GIBSON: But she is presenting as homeless, so -- do you
5 know many airport managers who live in bed and breakfast
6 accommodation?
7 MS LAWRENCE: I do not know any airport managers.
8 MS GIBSON: Looking at the education section, it is headed
9 up "Children's Education", and then:
10 "A levels in science and three years study at
11 medical centre. I intend to study English."
12 Is that box actually correctly filled?
13 MS LAWRENCE: The box is not correctly filled in, and
14 I accept -- I see exactly what you are saying. It has
15 not been used properly, it has not been completed.
16 MS GIBSON: Whose information is that?
17 MS LAWRENCE: That is the adult -- I assume that relates to
18 the adult, because an eight year old child I do not
19 think would have A levels in science.
20 MS GIBSON: Again, looking at that information, we have two
21 bits of rather concerning information, would you not
22 say, at this point?
23 MS LAWRENCE: I did not look at this assessment before
24 I reported to my senior manager that the assessment had
25 been completed. I also was not the person that closed
28
1 the case. Perhaps if I had closed the case, I would
2 have referred back to the assessment before closing it,
3 as I had directed that it be done.
4 MS GIBSON: If you had seen those two pieces of information
5 at the time, what would your reaction have been?
6 MS LAWRENCE: Under the education, the two pieces of
7 information?
8 MS GIBSON: Yes, you have read those two bits of
9 information.
10 MS LAWRENCE: When you say "the two bits of information",
11 what are the two bits of information?
12 MS GIBSON: The information about employment, the
13 information about education, where Ms Kouao has filled
14 in her own details.
15 MS LAWRENCE: What I would have said to the social worker
16 is, "You need to fill out the boxes correctly, and
17 education refers to the child's education".
18 MS GIBSON: Would you not have thought that this case
19 warranted further exploration, to see why someone who
20 purports to have the sort of background that Ms Kouao
21 states there was presenting in the way that she was
22 presenting to you?
23 MS LAWRENCE: I do not think there was anything particularly
24 concerning about that information, and if I did have any
25 particular concerns about the information that was
29
1 presented to me by any social worker at that time,
2 I would have directed that further explorations were
3 made of the circumstances surrounding the family. I did
4 not see the assessment. I was given feedback, I was
5 told that the assessment had been completed; I did not
6 check it. In fact, I was told the assessment had been
7 done, because I had then directed that it was completed
8 in terms of writing it up.
9 MS GIBSON: So you asked Pamela Fortune to write the case
10 up; did you discuss the case at that stage with her?
11 MS LAWRENCE: She would have told me that she had assessed
12 the case, she had conducted the assessment, under the
13 guidance of this form -- yes, and I reported to my
14 senior manager at that time.
15 (10.45 am)
16 MS GIBSON: Did she tell you about the difficulties she had
17 with Kouao in completing the assessment?
18 MS LAWRENCE: I cannot recall that Pamela spoke to me about
19 the difficulties. I have to say that on the day that
20 assessment was carried out, I was not likely to have
21 been the duty manager, so she did not share with me that
22 she had difficulties in completing the assessment on the
23 next occasion that I spoke to Pamela about this case.
24 MS GIBSON: So you did absolutely nothing to satisfy
25 yourself that this case had been assessed.
30
1 MS LAWRENCE: Well, I think you do have to trust what social
2 workers are saying to you, and at that time --
3 Sarah Stollard gave you examples of the volumes of work
4 we were dealing with in the Referral and Assessment
5 Team. It was not physically possible to go through or
6 to check every single recording that a social worker had
7 made. If this case was a child protection case, or it
8 was a case that was particularly worrying, I would have
9 checked, and I am sure Sarah Stollard would have also
10 checked.
11 MS GIBSON: At what stage did you look at Pamela Fortune's
12 recording of what had happened on 17th June?
13 MS LAWRENCE: I did not, because I directed that the
14 assessment was completed, I reported to the senior
15 manager, and I personally had nothing to do with that
16 case thereafter.
17 MS GIBSON: Were you made aware of the referral to Central
18 Middlesex Hospital at the time?
19 MS LAWRENCE: I was not.
20 MS GIBSON: And were you aware of the situation when Kouao
21 came into the office, and left Victoria unaccompanied?
22 MS LAWRENCE: I was not aware of that situation.
23 MS GIBSON: Just looking at what was happening with this
24 case by the time that you asked Pamela Fortune to
25 complete the assessment, would you have looked before
31
1 your recording on 23rd June at what had been happening
2 with the case in the meantime, on the file recordings?
3 MS LAWRENCE: I cannot recall whether I did look. The case
4 may well have been brought to my attention by Pamela for
5 some direction, and that may well be why I recorded
6 something on file on the 23rd.
7 MS GIBSON: We know, if we look at what was happening in the
8 meantime, that on 4th June, there had been a call from
9 Peter Pandelli at Star Lettings. Were you aware of
10 that?
11 MS LAWRENCE: No, I was not aware of that at the time.
12 MS GIBSON: And in that telephone call, he said that he was
13 concerned that Kouao had removed the carpets from the
14 room; do you remember that?
15 MS LAWRENCE: I was not aware of that at the time. We were
16 doing alternate weeks on duty, and if there was no
17 reason for the case to come to my attention on the week
18 that I was managing duty, then it would not -- and
19 I would not deal with it.
20 MS GIBSON: We will just look again at what you would have
21 known by 23rd June if you had looked at the case file.
22 The recording -- I think it is at 162. There is
23 information there about Kouao having removed all the
24 carpets out of the room, and put them outside the room.
25 Would that have caused you any concern?
32
1 MS LAWRENCE: Possibly, yes, it would have caused me concern
2 that she had ripped up the carpets in the room, and put
3 them outside.
4 MS GIBSON: And what would that concern have been?
5 MS LAWRENCE: Well, what was the flooring, you know, what
6 would the flooring have been like?
7 MS GIBSON: So just purely a physical concern?
8 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, a physical concern for Kouao and
9 Victoria.
10 MS GIBSON: Just looking over the page to page 161, at the
11 top, again on 4th June, we have got the information
12 about the carpets being torn up, but then you have Kouao
13 phoning in to complain that there is no carpet, when she
14 herself had removed the carpet. What was that piece of
15 information; what would that have said to you?
16 MS LAWRENCE: I suppose I would have questioned why she has
17 ripped up the carpet and then decided to ring in and say
18 that there is no carpet.
19 MS GIBSON: Might you not have regarded that action as being
20 somewhat irrational?
21 MS LAWRENCE: I do not know about irrational. I think what
22 I said before, I would have questioned, why would
23 somebody rip up the carpet and then ring in and say
24 there is no carpet in the room? I suppose it is
25 certainly unusual.
33
1 MS GIBSON: So by this stage, we have the information that
2 you have a woman presenting as an airport manager, who
3 is now in bed and breakfast accommodation; she has taken
4 a carpet out of the room. By this stage, you also knew
5 that there were concerns in the office about the
6 different appearance between Kouao and Victoria.
7 MS LAWRENCE: Was I? I do not know, I do not recall when
8 I became aware that there was a difference, in that they
9 did not resemble each other.
10 MS GIBSON: But you did become aware, because we know that
11 you went to have a look.
12 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, I did become aware that there was -- yes.
13 MS GIBSON: Do you think that was an adequate response, to
14 go and --
15 MS LAWRENCE: I think it was purely out of curiosity that
16 I peered into the room, because it is not unusual for
17 parents and their children not to resemble. It was not
18 of any particular significance. It was probably because
19 I was curious.
20 MS GIBSON: So presumably you were aware -- because it seems
21 there was a lot of discussion in the office about the
22 fact that Kouao may not have been Victoria's mother.
23 MS LAWRENCE: My only recollection of that was that -- one
24 of the workers, and I cannot remember which one of the
25 workers, had said that they did not resemble, and there
34
1 was a question whether they were mother and daughter.
2 On the basis of a child not resembling their parent,
3 that would not have caused me any particular concern.
4 MS GIBSON: So why did you go and look?
5 MS LAWRENCE: Because I was curious. It was not because
6 I was concerned that they might not be mother and
7 daughter, it was more out of curiosity, because that in
8 itself would not worry me, that a child did not appear
9 to look like their parent.
10 MS GIBSON: Might you have attributed the fact that Victoria
11 looked different to Kouao to the fact that the child's
12 father may have been darker skinned than Kouao?
13 MS LAWRENCE: As I can see, I am a black person, and within
14 black families, you can get varying skin tones. That
15 would not have been of particular concern to me.
16 MS GIBSON: But just again looking at the issues within the
17 office, we know from the Part 8 review that quite a few
18 workers did say that they were concerned at the time
19 about this mother -- well, the person presenting as the
20 mother, and the child.
21 MS LAWRENCE: Perhaps those few workers did not say it at
22 different times that I could hear. I recall the one
23 time that I heard that Victoria did not resemble her
24 mother, and that was it.
25 MS GIBSON: You said in your Crown Prosecution Service
35
1 statement that you took the view that Kouao, when you
2 saw her on 30th June, could be manipulative. You did
3 not record that on the case file; why not?
4 MS LAWRENCE: Because it was a view that I did not think was
5 significant enough to record on the case file.
6 MS GIBSON: You did not think it was significant to record
7 the fact that this person presenting as the child's
8 mother was manipulative?
9 MS LAWRENCE: Can I just explain what led me to that? It
10 was that Kouao seemed to present that she did not
11 understand fully what was being said when it suited her,
12 and at other times she appeared to be fully
13 understanding what was being said to her. That was what
14 I meant.
15 MS GIBSON: And is that what you learned about her from
16 Pamela Fortune?
17 MS LAWRENCE: No, I actually -- I think you will find that
18 on the 30th, I actually saw Kouao to go through the
19 decisions of management.
20 MS GIBSON: So the impression you got, as you were saying
21 before, was that she only understood what it suited her
22 to understand?
23 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
24 MS GIBSON: Were you not then concerned about the fact that
25 this woman was being allowed to manipulate the interview
36
1 process?
2 MS LAWRENCE: I was not particularly concerned about that.
3 I think you have to understand that we deal with, you
4 know -- and social workers deal with a vast number of
5 clients that present in many different ways, and I at
6 that time did not feel that that was significant enough
7 for me to record it.
8 MS GIBSON: So what provision were you assessing Kouao under
9 at this time?
10 MS LAWRENCE: Well, we should have been assessing Victoria
11 under Section 17, and I fully accept that the focus of
12 the assessment was on the adult, and the presenting
13 issue, which was that of homelessness.
14 MS GIBSON: If someone had bothered to look through the file
15 from start to finish before this case was closed, do you
16 think that there would have been a different approach?
17 MS LAWRENCE: I do not think that there would have been
18 a different approach. I think that we could have come
19 to the conclusions that we came to at an earlier point
20 in our involvement with the family, but I am not
21 convinced that the outcome would have been different.
22 MS GIBSON: Did the habitual residence test form, that
23 standard form, in fact tell us anything very different
24 from the information you had gleaned in core form one,
25 or rather Pamela Fortune had?
37
1 MS LAWRENCE: No, it did not.
2 MS GIBSON: So what was the purpose of doing this
3 assessment?
4 MS LAWRENCE: The purpose of that assessment, if it had been
5 completed fully, was to bring information together in
6 a constructive way. We did gather information
7 throughout our involvement, or we certainly recorded
8 what was going on with the family. What did not happen
9 was that a structured assessment did not appear.
10 MS GIBSON: Is it not though also part of your role as
11 senior practitioner to make sure that the case has the
12 appropriate direction?
13 MS LAWRENCE: Along with the team manager, yes, it would
14 have been my role to ensure that the case had
15 appropriate direction, and I think that you will find
16 that I have recorded, although not dated and signed,
17 instructions for the social worker to follow.
18 MS GIBSON: You say along with the team manager, but in the
19 system that was operating at the time, whose job was it
20 to ensure overall that the case had the appropriate
21 direction?
22 MS LAWRENCE: Well overall, the responsibility would have
23 been with the team manager. However, I played a part in
24 that, in that I managed duty on a fortnightly basis.
25 MS GIBSON: Who was supposed to read through the file to
38
1 check that the appropriate action was being taken?
2 MS LAWRENCE: Whoever dealt with the case.
3 MS GIBSON: In relation to allocation of the case now, we
4 know that there are some different recordings in terms
5 of when the case was allocated. I wonder if you could
6 help us with that. Can you tell us when the case was
7 allocated, looking at that file?
8 MS LAWRENCE: I think -- I believe the case was allocated on
9 30th June. However, I did complete an allocation form
10 on 23rd June. I think that the offer of explanation
11 that Sarah Stollard gave on Tuesday was probably
12 accurate, and that I had intended -- or I had completed
13 a form on the 23rd. For whatever reason, it had not
14 been processed as an allocation. When it came back to
15 my attention, I then did another allocation on 30th
16 June.
17 MS GIBSON: What was the purpose of allocating the case on
18 30th June?
19 MS LAWRENCE: For the assessment that Pamela said she had
20 completed to be put down on paper, again, to take it off
21 the duty system, to ensure that that person got it done.
22 MS GIBSON: Ms Lawrence, I do not understand that, because
23 surely the appropriate time to allocate the case would
24 have been in order to conduct an assessment, rather than
25 just to write something in the file.
39
1 MS LAWRENCE: Well, if the case was left in the duty system,
2 it is possible that Pamela would not have been the duty
3 worker on the following day, on that day, so in order to
4 ensure that it was completed by Pamela Fortune, the
5 person who undertook the assessment interview, it was
6 allocated.
7 MS GIBSON: So can we just get an understanding of what you
8 did understand about this case when you told
9 Judith Finlay on 30th June that the case had been
10 thoroughly assessed? What did you know about this case?
11 MS LAWRENCE: I cannot recall at this time exactly what
12 I knew about the case.
13 (11.00 am)
14 MS GIBSON: So you had read the first core form, but other
15 than that, it seems you had not read any of the other
16 entries in between.
17 MS LAWRENCE: I cannot recall exactly what I knew at that
18 time, but what I knew at that time would be reflected on
19 the file.
20 MS GIBSON: Well, we only have the recordings in your hand,
21 but we do not know what information you have been
22 looking at in between in dealing with the case, because
23 it seems that you were not looking at what was going on
24 with the case.
25 MS LAWRENCE: What I can say is I fully accept that
40
1 a thorough assessment, in respect of Victoria's need,
2 was not completed.
3 MS GIBSON: And do you accept that you failed to ensure
4 there was a home visit, to check out the situation at
5 Nicoll Road?
6 MS LAWRENCE: I believe that there were a couple of home
7 visits to Nicoll Road. I did not personally direct
8 those home visits to be undertaken.
9 MS GIBSON: Were you aware of those at the time?
10 MS LAWRENCE: I am sure I would have been.
11 MS GIBSON: So you were aware that there were concerns about
12 the accommodation at Nicoll Road. What did you do to
13 satisfy yourself that that accommodation was appropriate
14 for Victoria?
15 MS LAWRENCE: I am aware that the home visits were
16 undertaken at the time. I did not direct them
17 personally, and I do not think I can go any further.
18 MS GIBSON: Did you know why home visits were being carried
19 out?
20 MS LAWRENCE: I cannot recall, I cannot -- I cannot recall
21 at this time.
22 MS GIBSON: Do you agree that you failed to investigate why
23 Victoria was not at school?
24 MS LAWRENCE: I accept that I personally did not
25 investigate -- I personally did not direct.
41
1 MS GIBSON: And if you had looked at the form, which we have
2 already been through, you would have seen that that
3 information had not been discovered at the time the case
4 was closed.
5 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
6 MS GIBSON: I just want to go through what information was
7 available at the time that you said that this case was
8 thoroughly assessed on 30th June, to see if your
9 response would be different if that pool of information
10 had been available to you. We have already been through
11 some of it, so I will try and go through it fairly
12 quickly, but as you said before, we have a woman coming
13 from France, leaving two children behind, or more than
14 two children behind, bringing an eight year old child
15 with her; yes?
16 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
17 MS GIBSON: We have a woman who, in your habitual residence
18 test form, is claiming to be the manager of an airport;
19 also to say that she studied at a medical centre and has
20 a number of A levels. Again, would that cause you
21 concern that the information did not accord with the
22 presentation of someone in a destitute state?
23 MS LAWRENCE: I can only reconfirm that it would not have
24 caused me particular concern at that time.
25 MS GIBSON: We have a situation where there is some concern
42
1 in the office that Kouao might not be the child's
2 mother.
3 MS LAWRENCE: On the basis that she did not resemble, is my
4 understanding, her mother.
5 MS GIBSON: Do you not think that is something which should
6 have been investigated further?
7 MS LAWRENCE: No, I do not, because I know that many
8 children do not resemble their parents, and I did not
9 think that was a reason for us to investigate further
10 whether Victoria was in fact Mrs Kouao's daughter.
11 MS GIBSON: We have a series of complaints about
12 Nicoll Road; we have Kouao going to the police in
13 Harlesden to complain about Nicoll Road. Were you aware
14 of that at the time?
15 MS LAWRENCE: I cannot recall what I was aware of at the
16 time, but I probably would have been aware of it.
17 MS GIBSON: Again, would that not have caused you concern,
18 looking at the totality of the information that is
19 coming together?
20 MS LAWRENCE: The fact that she went to the police station
21 to complain that there were no carpets in the hotel?
22 MS GIBSON: Yes.
23 MS LAWRENCE: Not particularly.
24 MS GIBSON: We know there was an incident on 24th May when
25 Victoria started to cry in front of Bernadette Wilkin.
43
1 Did you discuss that with Ms Wilkin?
2 MS LAWRENCE: No, I did not.
3 MS GIBSON: Would that have caused you any concern?
4 MS LAWRENCE: That she started to cry?
5 MS GIBSON: Mm, when housing was discussed, after Ms Kouao
6 said something to her.
7 MS LAWRENCE: It might have caused me to question why she
8 was crying, but then it is possibly understandable that
9 she was crying, you know, if she was homeless and was
10 being told, "Your home is going to be taken away from
11 you".
12 MS GIBSON: There is also a recording on 1st June that Kouao
13 and Victoria had slept in the kitchen area in the
14 Nicoll Road premises because the roof was leaking in
15 their bedroom. Is that something that you would have
16 wished to explore with the manager, firstly to see if it
17 did take place, and then to find out what the problem
18 was?
19 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
20 MS GIBSON: We have already discussed the carpets; then we
21 have the information about the assessment that
22 Pamela Fortune could not complete, because Kouao was
23 evasive.
24 MS LAWRENCE: I was not aware at the time that that was
25 a problem, that Pamela was not able to complete the
44
1 assessment because Ms Kouao was evasive.
2 MS GIBSON: Just again, we are looking at the information
3 that would have been available if you had looked at the
4 file and discussed the case. Looking at
5 Pamela Fortune's recording, the interpreter had to write
6 down the information because Kouao had begged her to do
7 that.
8 MS LAWRENCE: I would have perhaps looked into what it was
9 about Pamela Fortune, or the relationship between her
10 and Pamela Fortune that led her to decide that she did
11 not want her to write the assessment, because on other
12 occasions, she spoke -- she appeared to speak freely to
13 other social workers.
14 MS GIBSON: And we also have the situation that you had
15 formed the view by 30th June that Kouao was
16 manipulative.
17 MS LAWRENCE: In that particular situation, yes.
18 MS GIBSON: But looking at all of that information, there
19 has to be a concern, does there not, that Kouao was
20 acting in a way that was quite irrational?
21 MS LAWRENCE: I think when you pull everything together, it
22 might lead you to want to question further, but there is
23 nothing in any of that for me that would have presented
24 a significant concern.
25 MS GIBSON: Well, some of the things in relation to Kouao's
45
1 behaviour, is it not a classic worrying sign when
2 a parent is allowed to dictate the agenda for what
3 happens during the course of an assessment, a parent who
4 does not let social workers obtain the information they
5 are seeking, by evading and ducking the issues?
6 MS LAWRENCE: That is correct, but we were not dealing with
7 a child protection case here, and we had -- we did not
8 have any significant information to suggest that
9 Mrs Kouao was not a responsible parent, apart from the
10 fact that she came into this country without adequately
11 planning that.
12 MS GIBSON: You say you were not dealing with a child
13 protection case, but cases do not necessarily come to
14 you with those labels on them, do they?
15 MS LAWRENCE: No, they do not always come to us with those
16 labels on, but we usually have significant indicators to
17 suggest there could be a child protection concern.
18 MS GIBSON: But part of your duty under Section 17, under
19 which you were operating, is to look at what the child's
20 needs are.
21 MS LAWRENCE: Absolutely, and I have said before,
22 I absolutely agree that we did not conduct a child
23 focused assessment. I accept that.
24 MS GIBSON: And there was information here, when you look at
25 the file, which would certainly point to the fact that
46
1 this case needed further assessment, not just on your
2 standard habitual residence test form, but something
3 much more profound than that -- not necessarily child
4 protection assessment, but something --
5 MS LAWRENCE: I agree that it needed to be a child focused,
6 a child in need assessment, and that was not what we
7 carried out at that time.
8 MS GIBSON: Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Ms Gibson. Ms Mayer?
10 MS MAYER: Ms Lawrence, on the new documents which Ealing
11 provided this morning -- and I do not have them in my
12 bundle yet, so I cannot give you numbers, but I am
13 looking at the tracking sheets. On 26th April, the
14 first entry on that page, "Kouao", yes?
15 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
16 MS MAYER: There is a number to the left, 388. Can you
17 explain what that is, please?
18 MS LAWRENCE: That would have been the number placed on that
19 referral in April. That would have been the 388th
20 referral that we had received in April of that year.
21 MS MAYER: Mm. You were asked an awful lot of questions
22 about the things you knew, should have known and should
23 have done, but it would appear that this certainly was
24 not the only case on your files at the time.
25 MS LAWRENCE: Definitely not.
47
1 MS MAYER: I just want to check with the tracking system two
2 or three things. I was not sure whether you explained
3 clearly whether you put down every single case that was
4 referred to the department within the system, and simply
5 did not do it necessarily on the day that it happened,
6 or that you did not put down every case that came in;
7 which is it?
8 MS LAWRENCE: We would put down every case that came in. It
9 was not always possible on a daily basis to log all of
10 those.
11 MS MAYER: Right. So these records are records of all the
12 cases which would have come to duty at any given time?
13 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
14 MS MAYER: And finally, I would ask -- you have expressed,
15 I think, some reservation about this system. Would you
16 say this was a fairly crude system?
17 MS LAWRENCE: Yes, I would.
18 MS MAYER: Is there a change in Ealing now? What system is
19 being used now for recording new cases?
20 MS LAWRENCE: There is a definite change, in that all cases
21 are recorded electronically, and they are monitored --
22 we have a tracking system that allows us to print out
23 all the allocated cases on a weekly basis, and any case
24 that is open to duty on a daily basis. All cases are
25 now allocated. Every case that requires social work
48
1 intervention and services is given to a social worker.
2 There is a named social worker on the case, so it makes
3 it easier to track, and to monitor, and to manage.
4 MS MAYER: A significant difference from the procedure used
5 in April of 1999?
6 MS LAWRENCE: Absolutely so.
7 (11.15 am)
8 MS MAYER: Again, just a small error, I suspect, which you
9 were asked about; you were told that Ms Kouao went to
10 the police to complain about the fact that there were no
11 carpets in her room. I do not think you remember
12 anything about the complaint to the police, do you?
13 MS LAWRENCE: Not at this time. I cannot recall.
14 MS MAYER: Page 205 of volume 5; it appears quite clear that
15 Ms Kouao in fact complained to the police about the fact
16 that the manager had called her a liar about the leak
17 over her bed. I do not know whether it would have made
18 a blind bit of difference to your dealing with the case
19 if you knew that, but would that be in itself something
20 that would indicate to you that Ms Kouao is an
21 irrational person?
22 MS LAWRENCE: I would think it was strange to go and
23 complain to the police that she had been called a liar.
24 I would think it was perhaps a waste of police time.
25 MS MAYER: Well, let us put it this way: of the people you
49
1 house in bed and breakfast accommodation, how many
2 complain about the accommodation?
3 MS LAWRENCE: I think everyone complains about bed and
4 breakfast accommodation.
5 MS MAYER: And how many of the people who you deal with
6 would you say -- and I put it very broadly at this
7 juncture: how many of them try to manipulate the system
8 in order to get more money out of the system?
9 MS LAWRENCE: Quite a number do.
10 MS MAYER: Did Ms Kouao, at the juncture that you dealt with
11 her, appear that unusual in complaining about the
12 accommodation and trying to manipulate the system?
13 MS LAWRENCE: No, she did not.
14 MS MAYER: She went to see solicitors, we know, and the
15 solicitors confirmed her complaints in their letters.
16 How unusual was it for new arrivals in this country to
17 go and see solicitors?
18 MS LAWRENCE: It was not unusual at all.
19 MS MAYER: It is clear from your documents that she was
20 advised to see solicitors; was that Ealing's standard
21 practice, to advise new arrivals, if I may call them
22 that, to seek legal advice?
23 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
24 MS MAYER: Of the people who arrived in Ealing from abroad,
25 how many would you say, if you know, were asylum
50
1 seekers, in the true sense of the word, and how many
2 were the likes of Ms Kouao who turned up from Paris?
3 MS LAWRENCE: I cannot give accurate figures, but there
4 were -- I would say that there were perhaps more
5 unaccompanied -- asylum seekers, but there was a high
6 number of people presenting from abroad in Ms Kouao's
7 situation as well.
8 MS MAYER: And you say that it was not unusual to get
9 solicitors' letters, threatening, for example, with
10 judicial reviews, and saying, "My client is not happy
11 with what you are providing him or her"?
12 MS LAWRENCE: That would not have been an unusual thing for
13 us in the Referral and Assessment Team, then and now.
14 MS MAYER: You were asked about the issue of schooling, and
15 I think you have accepted, as indeed have I on behalf of
16 the local authority, your local authority, that you
17 missed the fact that Victoria was not at school.
18 MS LAWRENCE: Yes.
19 MS MAYER: What problems are there, so far as you are aware,
20 amongst the, again, new arrivals in the country, in
21 respect of schooling?
22 MS LAWRENCE: Well I suppose the obstacles are that English
23 is a second language, and I suppose there would be
24 special needs for education, and there are difficulties
25 in getting people from abroad into schools.
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