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Archived Transcript for 29 November 2001:
Pages 101 to 150
101
1 "Staffing. Number of vacancies in Tottenham is
2 having major impact on service. Total: seven on front
3 line and two in Long Term. Dave had written advert in
4 May but is being held up by QP advert."
5 Now that you have had all the relevant documents put
6 in front of you, are you still of the view that staffing
7 was only a serious problem from December 1999 onwards or
8 was it earlier than that?
9 MR ALMEDIA: Well, the information, obviously the numbers
10 are much smaller in May but obviously there was
11 a problem with staffing as it seems which grew
12 progressively worse as the year went on.
13 MR SHELDON: A fair reflection of your evidence would be yes
14 there was a problem all along but as was put to you
15 earlier that did get worse from December 1999?
16 MR ALMEDIA: I have to say yes, based on my impression, yes.
17 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much. Thank you sir.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I am looking at the clock,
19 Mr Sheldon.
20 MR SHELDON: I should think that I will take considerably
21 less time with Ms Hayes than we took with Mr Almedia and
22 I think I can get a fairly substantial way into her
23 evidence by one o'clock.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: That is fine. I am grateful.
25 MR SHELDON: Could we have Marina Hayes please.
102
1 MS MARINA HAYES (sworn)
2 MR SHELDON: Good afternoon.
3 MS HAYES: Good afternoon.
4 MR SHELDON: Could you confirm your name and professional
5 address.
6 MS HAYES: My name is Marina Geraldine Hayes and I left the
7 social work profession in July 2001 and I am currently
8 a housewife.
9 MR SHELDON: You have made a statement for use by this
10 Inquiry.
11 MS HAYES: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: It is in volume 2, page 175.501 sir and I think
13 a copy of it is just arriving in front of you Ms Hayes.
14 Could you have a look at the last page of it. Is that
15 your signature?
16 MS HAYES: It is.
17 MR SHELDON: Are you happy that the fact and matters in your
18 statement are true?
19 MS HAYES: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: You started work for Haringey in 1994 as an
21 unqualified social worker in the Travellers Team, is
22 that right?
23 MS HAYES: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: And in September 1997 you took unpaid leave so
25 you could go off and do your social work diploma which
103
1 you successfully did?
2 MS HAYES: Yes.
3 MR SHELDON: And you returned to Haringey in July 1999 when
4 you were assigned to the Investigation and Assessment
5 Team?
6 MS HAYES: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: As I understand it, that team was split into
8 two groups, one managed by Angella Mairs and the other
9 by Carole Baptiste, is that right?
10 MS HAYES: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: And you were in Carole Baptiste's group at
12 least until the restructuring?
13 MS HAYES: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: You say that you left Social Services work
15 in July 2001.
16 MS HAYES: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: When did you leave the Haringey Investigation
18 and Assessment Team?
19 MS HAYES: The end of April 2000.
20 MR SHELDON: April 2000?
21 MS HAYES: Yes.
22 MR SHELDON: Where did you go then?
23 MS HAYES: Birmingham Social Services.
24 MR SHELDON: If you can be shown volume 29, page 65, that is
25 a list of the training that Haringey say you have had.
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1 It says on page 65 that you got a BA in history and
2 sociology, an MA in Latin American history and the
3 diploma you took in 1999. Over the page is courses
4 attended and it would appear that you have done one,
5 which was a court skills course in September 1999. Is
6 that accurate?
7 MS HAYES: Yes.
8 MR SHELDON: Anything else?
9 MS HAYES: No, not as a qualified. I did training as an
10 unqualified social worker but not as a qualified.
11 Training courses with Haringey. But that is the only
12 one I did when I worked in North Tottenham.
13 MR SHELDON: When you joined the team in July 1999 did you
14 receive any form of induction?
15 MS HAYES: I was shown around the office and introduced to
16 people and also got an induction pack.
17 MR SHELDON: What was in the pack?
18 MS HAYES: I think it was the policies and procedures of
19 Haringey Council, the procedures about how the Duty Team
20 was run. Various different bits and pieces about the
21 resources in the borough. I cannot remember what else.
22 MR SHELDON: Was the position this, you arrived in the team,
23 you are introduced to everybody, given a pack of
24 material and then you are off and running, are you?
25 MS HAYES: What I was told was that induction pack would
105
1 then be discussed throughout supervision and that would
2 be I think the first couple of weeks from what
3 I remember it was, but then after that it was not.
4 I think the main focus from what I remember was around
5 the sickness policy and what the issues were around
6 sickness policy.
7 MR SHELDON: So we are clear about this, you have just
8 finished your diploma, you leave whatever educational
9 establishment you were in to do it, you arrive at
10 Haringey, you are assigned to Carole Baptiste's team,
11 you are introduced to everybody.
12 MS HAYES: Yes.
13 MR SHELDON: You are given a pack with some documents and
14 procedures in it and then you just start doing cases, do
15 you?
16 MS HAYES: That was my experience of working at North
17 Tottenham.
18 MR SHELDON: And although it was your impression that you
19 would be taken through those documents in your induction
20 pack during the course of your supervisions, apart from
21 a bit in the first couple of supervisions principally
22 about sickness policy, that did not happen?
23 MS HAYES: That was my experience, yes.
24 MR SHELDON: I see, so you were just left to make do as best
25 you could with the materials you had been given, is that
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1 fair?
2 MS HAYES: That was the impression I formed, yes.
3 MR SHELDON: Did you form the impression that that was
4 adequate?
5 MS HAYES: Well, no, it was not adequate, but that was the
6 way it was in North Tottenham. That was the working
7 culture, that was what I felt and that is --
8 MR SHELDON: Did you feel, "I should not be let loose on
9 cases until I have been given some sort of training or
10 induction as to how I am supposed to deal with them"?
11 MS HAYES: I think the perception was it was my impression,
12 because I had worked for Haringey for three and a half
13 years and I had also sort of done some joint work with
14 the qualified social worker who is in the Travellers
15 Team, they probably felt that I was possibly able to
16 start work more quickly than other people.
17 MR SHELDON: That is what they felt?
18 MS HAYES: That is what I am assuming the thinking behind.
19 MR SHELDON: That is what you assume they felt?
20 MS HAYES: That is what I am assuming the thinking behind.
21 MR SHELDON: Did you feel that the fact that you had done
22 some work as an unqualified social worker on the
23 Travellers Team meant that you could start work on the
24 Investigation and Assessment Team without very much in
25 the way of induction or training, if anything?
107
1 MS HAYES: I would have preferred more training, more
2 induction but that was not what happened and --
3 MR SHELDON: I see that but what I am attempting to
4 understand is whether you felt that you were capable in
5 those early weeks of doing the work that you were being
6 given or whether the lack of training and induction
7 meant that you felt that you were not properly capable
8 of doing that.
9 MS HAYES: I think I felt capable but I would have liked
10 more support, I would have liked a better induction but
11 I felt that I was capable as long as I was supported.
12 MR SHELDON: I see, as long as you were supported. Were you
13 supported?
14 MS HAYES: I felt supported by my colleagues and by some
15 managers but overall I did not feel very supported.
16 MR SHELDON: Carole Baptiste was your team manager from July
17 1999 onwards?
18 MS HAYES: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: She was responsible for supervising you?
20 MS HAYES: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: What was your view of her as a manager?
22 MS HAYES: Quite mixed. She was not very available.
23 MR SHELDON: You say supervision was supposed to be every
24 two weeks or so.
25 MS HAYES: That did not happen.
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1 MR SHELDON: How often did it happen?
2 MS HAYES: I cannot remember. It was quite irregular.
3 MR SHELDON: Why were you supervised so irregularly?
4 MS HAYES: Because the manager was not there.
5 MR SHELDON: Do you know what she was doing when she should
6 have been supervising you?
7 MS HAYES: No.
8 MR SHELDON: Just was not around?
9 MS HAYES: From what I recall, she was not around, no.
10 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that that might be
11 attributable in part to her being demoralised about
12 losing her job in the restructuring.
13 MS HAYES: Possibly.
14 MR SHELDON: Was there anything in particular that gave you
15 that impression?
16 MS HAYES: I think she tended to be around less once that
17 process had started. She tended to be around -- once
18 the process of the restructuring had started I think she
19 tended to be around less.
20 MR SHELDON: You also say in your statement that the quality
21 of the supervision she did give you when she was around
22 was uneven I think.
23 MS HAYES: Variable, yes.
24 MR SHELDON: Sometimes she would be helpful and thoughtful
25 and sometimes she would not?
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1 MS HAYES: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: What would happen during supervisions when she
3 was not in helpful mood?
4 MS HAYES: I know generally it tended to be quite unfocused.
5 Supervision sessions tended to be quite unfocused.
6 MR SHELDON: Did she talk about the Bible when you wanted to
7 talk about cases?
8 MS HAYES: Sometimes, yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Is that the reason you left Haringey because
10 you were so fed up with it?
11 MS HAYES: I moved to Birmingham for personal reasons but
12 I probably would have left North Tottenham anyway. For
13 various reasons I probably would have left North
14 Tottenham anyway.
15 MR SHELDON: Volume 45A page 150.658. This is what
16 Mr Monaghan says that Valerie Robertson told him when he
17 interviewed her at the beginning of this year and it is
18 fair to say that Ms Robertson has some reservations
19 about this and she is going to be providing us with
20 a covering letter which indicates those reservations but
21 I want to see whether what she says about you is right.
22 Second paragraph down, do you see that? Third line
23 down:
24 "A permanent member of staff, Marina Hayes, told me
25 that she was leaving Haringey because she was getting
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1 quotes from the Bible and religious guidance from
2 Carole Baptiste during supervision. I gave Marina
3 a lift home and she told me this. I felt this was very
4 unsafe. Marina Hayes had gone in to see Carole Baptiste
5 with a difficult and important problem. I consider
6 Marina Hayes to be newly qualified and she needed
7 guidance. I told Marina she would have to cut
8 Carole Baptiste and redirect her back to the cases."
9 Do you remember having a conversation to this effect
10 with Valerie Robertson in her car going home one day?
11 MS HAYES: I do not. I do remember having a conversation
12 around one particular supervision session where
13 Carole Baptiste spoke quite a lot about religion and her
14 spiritual beliefs, but I do not recollect.
15 MR SHELDON: You do not recollect saying, "I am fed up with
16 this, I am going to leave"?
17 MS HAYES: I probably said I was fed up definitely, but I do
18 not recollect what Val is saying, that she told me to
19 cut Carole short and redirect her back. I do not
20 recollect saying it.
21 MR SHELDON: If we leave what Valerie Robertson said for the
22 moment and concentrate on what you said. Did you say
23 effectively "I am upset"?
24 MS HAYES: I was very unhappy at North Tottenham. Very
25 unhappy.
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1 MR SHELDON: "And I am going to leave"?
2 MS HAYES: Yes, I was very unhappy in North Tottenham.
3 MR SHELDON: Because of the supervision?
4 MS HAYES: That and lots of other issues as well.
5 MR SHELDON: What else were you unhappy about?
6 MS HAYES: What I have said in my statement.
7 MR SHELDON: The divisions?
8 MS HAYES: The genuine divisions within the team.
9 MR SHELDON: What was the cause of the divisions in the
10 team?
11 MS HAYES: I do not really know. I tried to keep out of it.
12 I did not really want to get involved but I think there
13 was lots of just historical resentment and conflicts.
14 I did not really want to get involved with it.
15 MR SHELDON: When you say in your statement that the team
16 was very divided --
17 MS HAYES: That is what I found.
18 MR SHELDON: I am sure it is. Do you mean just
19 Carole Baptiste's team or the team as a whole, the
20 Investigation and Assessment Team as a whole?
21 MS HAYES: I mean obviously there was two separate teams,
22 there was Carole Baptiste's team and there was
23 Angella Mairs' team.
24 MR SHELDON: So these divisions you are talking about, which
25 team --
112
1 MS HAYES: It was -- I felt that Angella Mairs' team was
2 quite compact, very tight team and our team was very
3 much on the periphery of that team and that that is
4 where the divisions sort of occurred. That was my view
5 on it, looking back that was my view.
6 MR SHELDON: What was your view of Angella Mairs?
7 MS HAYES: I think I found her quite controlling and very
8 autocratic but also I felt that she did manage Duty
9 quite well and she was always available but I found her
10 very autocratic and very controlling.
11 MR SHELDON: Bit of a bully?
12 MS HAYES: I do not like using that word but, no, I prefer
13 to think of her as very controlling and as long as you
14 did what she wanted in the way she wanted it then you
15 were fine. If you call that bullying that is what it
16 is, but that is how I felt it was when I worked there.
17 MR SHELDON: This atmosphere in the office with these
18 divisions, what effect did that have, do you think, on
19 the quality of work done by the team?
20 MS HAYES: I cannot speak, I can only speak for myself.
21 Personally I found it a struggle. I found it a struggle
22 having to deal with my own case load and the emotional
23 issues that that brought up and also dealing with the
24 conflicts that were going on in the team and I know
25 other people were not happy with the conflict but I do
113
1 not know how that affected their work. You would have
2 to ask them.
3 MR SHELDON: Did you feel that you and possibly others were
4 spending so much time worrying about hostilities and
5 tensions within the team and not enough time
6 concentrating on what you wanted to be concentrating on
7 which was your cases?
8 MS HAYES: No, I do not think I worried about them, I do not
9 think I worried about the conflict. I was aware of
10 them, I did not like them and I did not like the whole
11 environment that it created, but I tried to get on with
12 my own case load. But I do know I think it affected me
13 and how I actually felt working in that environment but
14 I do not think --
15 MR SHELDON: Demotivated you, do you think?
16 MS HAYES: No, I do not think it demotivated me.
17 MR SHELDON: What effect did it have on you then?
18 MR ALMEDIA: I just hated going in there.
19 MR SHELDON: You hated going to work?
20 MS HAYES: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: That is not demotivating?
22 MS HAYES: I am talking in terms of how I related to my
23 clients and doing my work, I do not think that actually
24 affected me, I just did not like the working atmosphere
25 but I do not think it affected -- it did not affect my
114
1 commitment to my role at the time.
2 MR SHELDON: I see. Sir would that be a convenient moment?
3 THE CHAIRMAN: That is very convenient. I am grateful to
4 you. Ladies and gentlemen could we be back here by five
5 to 2? Ms Hayes, during the break you are not allowed to
6 discuss your evidence with anyone.
7 (1.05 pm)
8 (The short adjournment)
9 (1.55 pm)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Perhaps whoever has
11 their mobile phone on would make sure that it is off
12 before we begin.
13 MR SHELDON: Thank you, sir. Can we have Marina Hayes back,
14 please. Ms Hayes, you will remember before we broke for
15 lunch that you were giving evidence about how little you
16 enjoyed going into work in the Investigation and
17 Assessment Team before you left.
18 MS HAYES: (Witness nods).
19 MR SHELDON: And then late 1999 in particular.
20 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
21 MR SHELDON: You said in fact you hated going to work by the
22 end.
23 MS HAYES: It is a bit strong, but I found it difficult to
24 manage --
25 MR SHELDON: What in particular did you dislike intensely
115
1 about it?
2 MS HAYES: The conflicts in the team and that they seemed --
3 they seemed to be irresolvable is the word. There
4 seemed to be no resolution to the conflicts --
5 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that
6 Lisa Arthurworrey also told you that she was unhappy
7 working in the team. Do you recall that?
8 MS HAYES: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Did she tell you why she was unhappy?
10 MS HAYES: I do not recall in particular.
11 MR SHELDON: Did you get the impression it was the same sort
12 of issues that you had, namely the conflicts, the bad
13 atmosphere?
14 MS HAYES: I think it was that and her case load as well.
15 I think it was both but I cannot recall in particular.
16 But I think it was both.
17 MR SHELDON: But your general recollection was her heavy
18 case load was getting her down?
19 MS HAYES: Both. I think it was both.
20 MR SHELDON: Along with the bad atmosphere?
21 MS HAYES: Yes I think it was both.
22 MR SHELDON: Were you aware of her having a particularly
23 heavy case load?
24 MS HAYES: Yes. Particular people did have heavy case
25 loads.
116
1 MR SHELDON: And she was one of the ones who seemed to be
2 particularly bad off in that respect?
3 MS HAYES: She had quite a heavy case load, yes.
4 MR SHELDON: She had been asking for a transfer out of the
5 team, is that right?
6 MS HAYES: As far as I am aware, yes.
7 MR SHELDON: To one of the Long Term Teams as far as you
8 knew?
9 MS HAYES: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: Do you know who she had been asking?
11 MS HAYES: I think she had asked Carole Baptiste and Angella
12 Mairs as far as I am aware.
13 MR SHELDON: Did you get the impression that despite her
14 wishes she was not going to be allowed to transfer out
15 of the team?
16 MS HAYES: Yes. From what I can remember, she said she was
17 told that because the Duty Team was very busy and they
18 needed workers that she could not transfer to the Long
19 Term Children and Families Team. From what I can
20 remember.
21 MR SHELDON: What was your view of her as a social worker?
22 Did you think she was good at her job?
23 MS HAYES: She came across as competent and dedicated.
24 MR SHELDON: Above average, below average within the office?
25 MS HAYES: That would be hard for me to judge. She was
117
1 a good social worker --
2 MR SHELDON: Given that she was a significantly more
3 experienced social worker than you, was she someone you
4 would ever approach for help or advice?
5 MS HAYES: I think -- whoever was in the room, because she
6 did not sit in the room, it was whoever was physically
7 present who I tended to go to for advice.
8 MR SHELDON: So it might have been her if she was around?
9 MS HAYES: If she was around but generally we were in
10 different parts of the office so I would go to whoever
11 was ...
12 MR SHELDON: I see. You also mentioned in your statement
13 your understanding that Lisa Arthurworrey had complained
14 to David Duncan about Carole Baptiste's supervision
15 practices.
16 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
17 MR SHELDON: Is that something you remember now?
18 MS HAYES: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: And I got the impression from your statement
20 that Mr Duncan had taken that complaint seriously
21 because he had interviewed the people that were
22 concerned; is that right?
23 MS HAYES: That was my understanding from what Lisa had told
24 me.
25 MR SHELDON: Were you aware if anything had come from that
118
1 complaint?
2 MS HAYES: From what I can remember, Lisa told me that
3 David Duncan had spoken to Carole Baptiste. I do not
4 know what the outcome of that was, but that is my
5 understanding, is that it had been discussed --
6 MR SHELDON: As far as the question of supervision was
7 concerned and Carole Baptiste's supervision in
8 particular, did you notice things getting better over
9 the second half of 1999 as far as that was concerned,
10 worse or staying the same?
11 MS HAYES: Worse.
12 MR SHELDON: So whatever Mr Duncan may have said to
13 Carole Baptiste following Lisa Arthurworrey's complaint
14 would seem not to have particularly improved the
15 situation, at least in terms of her supervision?
16 MS HAYES: Well that was how I understood it when I was in
17 the office.
18 MR SHELDON: Did you ever complain to David Duncan or
19 anybody else in senior management about the lack of
20 supervision you were getting from Carole Baptiste?
21 MS HAYES: No.
22 MR SHELDON: Why not?
23 MS HAYES: Because that was my understanding, was that
24 a complaint had already been formally put in and she had
25 already been spoken to and --
119
1 MR SHELDON: But it has not done any good, has it?
2 MS HAYES: No, the conclusion I came to was that I was going
3 to survive in that office and do my work and do what
4 I could to survive in that office, I think is the
5 conclusion I drew from that.
6 MR SHELDON: So did you ever tell Carole Baptiste that you
7 thought her supervision was grossly inadequate and --
8 MS HAYES: No.
9 MR SHELDON: And you felt that she needed to address that?
10 MS HAYES: No.
11 MR SHELDON: Why not?
12 MS HAYES: I did not see the point.
13 MR SHELDON: Why not?
14 MS HAYES: Because other people had said it to her and
15 nothing had changed. I do not think that I saw that,
16 personally, I could make much of a difference. If
17 management had not made that difference, then I could
18 not see how I could make that difference. I think that
19 was where I was coming from at the time.
20 MR SHELDON: But it would be possible, would it, for
21 Ms Baptiste to say when she gives evidence to this
22 Inquiry that the first she ever heard that Marina Hayes
23 was disappointed with the supervision she was getting
24 from me was when Marina Hayes gave evidence to this
25 Inquiry?
120
1 MS HAYES: In terms of me personally, yes, that would be
2 true, but in terms of how she managed the team overall
3 I do not think she could make that judgment because --
4 MR SHELDON: No, she could say, "I heard it from other
5 people but not from you".
6 MS HAYES: Not in terms of me but I think in terms of how
7 she supervised and organised the whole team I do not
8 think I was any different to anybody else.
9 MR SHELDON: Did you regard this lack of supervision from
10 Carole Baptiste as a serious problem as far as you were
11 concerned?
12 MS HAYES: Well as far as I was concerned, well yes it was,
13 yes.
14 MR SHELDON: So surely you should have told somebody, if not
15 her then somebody who could talk to her. I mean you
16 have heard from Lisa Arthurworrey that David Duncan
17 takes this thing seriously. Why not tell him?
18 MS HAYES: Because it had already been done. Complaints had
19 already been put in.
20 MR SHELDON: And nothing had changed?
21 MS HAYES: And nothing had changed.
22 MR SHELDON: So you were just going to leave it were you?
23 MS HAYES: So therefore I was just going to survive in that
24 environment, and that was how I was going to survive and
25 that is what I did.
121
1 MR SHELDON: Barry Almedia was your senior practitioner at
2 the time, was he not?
3 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
4 MR SHELDON: Were you getting any supervision from him?
5 MS HAYES: Yes, I could go to Barry and talk about things.
6 MR SHELDON: So he was approachable for advice on an ad hoc
7 basis?
8 MS HAYES: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Was there any formal supervision on cases?
10 MS HAYES: Very little.
11 MR SHELDON: So your position was this at the time, was it:
12 very inexperienced when you joined the team straight
13 from your diploma, no real induction or training?
14 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
15 MR SHELDON: You are not getting any supervision from your
16 manager, no formal supervision from your senior
17 practitioner?
18 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
19 MR SHELDON: You just decide to get your head down and make
20 the best of it?
21 MS HAYES: Yes.
22 MR SHELDON: Do you think that was a satisfactory approach?
23 MS HAYES: That was how I survived in that office. If
24 I looked back now, of course I do not think that was
25 appropriate. But my main focus was I am working in this
122
1 office, this is the dynamic in this office; if I want to
2 work here, this is what I have got to do, and that is
3 what I did.
4 MR SHELDON: So your feeling of the way in which the office
5 operated was --
6 MS HAYES: I am getting very angry, sorry.
7 MR SHELDON: That is all right. Your view was that, in
8 order to survive in that office and the way in which
9 that office ran was that people had to get their head
10 down and make the best of it and there was no point
11 making complaints because it would not do any good?
12 MS HAYES: That was my own personal way of surviving. We
13 all have defence mechanisms. Mine was I am here to do
14 a job, I am not here to get involved in petty office
15 politics, and I will do my job to the best of my ability
16 and --
17 MR SHELDON: I was not really suggesting that you should
18 have got involved in petty office politics. I was
19 suggesting that you might have sought to complain about
20 the fact that you were being left almost totally
21 unsupervised in your handling of the cases.
22 MS HAYES: That was not just something for me, that was an
23 issue for the entire team, and it was well known that
24 that was an issue for the entire team, not just for one
25 particular individual.
123
1 MR SHELDON: You have mentioned that you could go to
2 Barry Almedia Almedia from time to time if you had
3 a particular concern about a case.
4 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
5 MR SHELDON: Was there anywhere else you felt you could go
6 for supervision or guidance if Carole Baptiste was not
7 around?
8 MS HAYES: As I said, it depended who was around in the
9 office at the time.
10 MR SHELDON: You mention in your statement, for example,
11 that there was no group forum for discussion of cases;
12 is that right?
13 MS HAYES: No -- there was talks of having a group forum but
14 it never actually happened.
15 MR SHELDON: Is it implicit from the fact that -- this is
16 something you say in paragraph 19 of your statement,
17 "social workers were unhappy about"; is it implicit from
18 that that you thought there should have been a group
19 forum for discussing cases?
20 MS HAYES: Yes, I think it would have been helpful to --
21 MR SHELDON: Was that ever suggested?
22 MS HAYES: It was, yes.
23 MR SHELDON: By whom?
24 MS HAYES: It used to be suggested at the team meetings and
25 discussed at the team meetings.
124
1 MR SHELDON: So social workers would say, "We need a group
2 forum to discuss cases and issues arising out of cases",
3 and management decided that they would not do anything
4 about that?
5 MS HAYES: No, it was discussed and I think everybody felt
6 it was a good idea, but for some reason it never
7 actually happened. I do remember there were quite a few
8 discussions at the team meetings about having these
9 types of groups but for whatever reasons they never
10 happened.
11 MR SHELDON: Was the outcome of those discussions ever
12 communicated to somebody who might have been in
13 a position to do something about it?
14 MS HAYES: Well, usually Angella was present at those --
15 from what I can remember she was present at some of
16 those discussions. From what I can remember.
17 MR SHELDON: You say at paragraph 19(d) of your statement
18 that there was a general lack of supervision --
19 MS HAYES: Well in Carole Baptiste's team, not in
20 Angella Mair's team. I should make that distinction.
21 MR SHELDON: So that was only the case in --
22 MS HAYES: Carole Baptiste's team.
23 MR SHELDON: Before we leave this question of supervision,
24 let me just ask you this: was regular quality
25 supervision from managers, senior practitioners
125
1 something you felt vital to enable you to do your job
2 properly, or was it just something you thought would be
3 nice and would probably make your life a bit easier?
4 MS HAYES: No, it would be vital.
5 MR SHELDON: You also say in your statement at
6 paragraph 19(f) that there was a lack of recognition of
7 the emotional impact of being in such a stressful and
8 busy team. Recognition by whom? Managers?
9 MS HAYES: Managers.
10 MR SHELDON: Carole Baptiste then in your case?
11 MS HAYES: And I would say Angella Mairs as well.
12 MR SHELDON: I see. What was the emotional impact of being
13 in such a stressful and busy team?
14 MS HAYES: Personally I found it a very task oriented team.
15 I did not find it a supporting, nurturing environment,
16 I have to say. That is my own personal view.
17 MR SHELDON: Did you think, "We are working extremely hard,
18 are extremely stressed, under a lot of pressure and
19 nobody seems to care"; is that what you are saying
20 there?
21 MS HAYES: No, for me I do not think it was that kind of
22 pressure. To me it was more the pressure of all the
23 conflicts that were going on in the office and having to
24 work in an environment where there was lots of conflicts
25 going on around you and plus North Tottenham did have
126
1 quite a lot of conflict cases, quite a lot of different
2 types of cases and just the general complexity of the
3 work I felt was not really --
4 MR SHELDON: In relation to that specific deficiency that
5 you highlight at paragraph 19(f) of your statement, lack
6 of recognition of the emotional impact of being in such
7 a stressful and busy team, what is it you are saying
8 there should have been done that was not been done?
9 MS HAYES: Well, I would have preferred less of an emphasis
10 on task oriented social work, but that is my own
11 personal thing. I would have preferred less of an
12 emphasis on that and more of an emphasis on how you work
13 with families, the issues that families bring up for
14 you, that you bring up for them, and analysing cases and
15 reflecting on cases rather than task orientation, but
16 that is my own --
17 MR SHELDON: I see. So the approach was just to get
18 specific tasks completed on a case rather than to think
19 about it in a more rounded way; is that right?
20 MS HAYES: Not exclusively, but I think overall it was very
21 task oriented.
22 MR SHELDON: Was there a high turnover of staff on the team
23 in the second half of 1999, or was it fairly stable?
24 MS HAYES: I do not recall many people leaving. What I do
25 remember is agency staff were interviewed, and people
127
1 came for a day and left or people were supposed to turn
2 up and they never turned up. I kind of remember that.
3 I do not remember established members of the team
4 leaving during that period.
5 MR SHELDON: But there were quite a lot of agency staff
6 coming and going during that period, were there?
7 MS HAYES: I do not know what the numbers are but I do
8 remember occasions when somebody was supposed to come
9 and they never came or they just came for a day and then
10 left.
11 MR SHELDON: We have had evidence from elsewhere that said
12 some of these agency staff would come in, stay for a day
13 or two and then leave and you have to find somebody
14 else.
15 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
16 MR SHELDON: Is that something you recall happening?
17 MS HAYES: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: Is that something you regarded as a healthy
19 state of affairs?
20 MS HAYES: Well no, but what could they do? That is the way
21 it was at the time. I think they found it very
22 difficult to get staff to work at North Tottenham.
23 MR SHELDON: Why do you think that was?
24 MS HAYES: I think because people knew the stresses of
25 working there.
128
1 MR SHELDON: Really?
2 MS HAYES: Well that is my own personal opinion obviously.
3 MR SHELDON: Your opinion is that it had a reputation of not
4 a particularly fun place to work?
5 MS HAYES: I think it was known that North Tottenham was
6 a very busy office and possibly, I do not know ...
7 MR SHELDON: Did this flow of agency staff coming in and out
8 for a day or two at a time, did that have any impact on
9 the quality of the service that you as a team were able
10 to provide?
11 MS HAYES: That is difficult for me to say. Obviously it
12 meant that resources were stretched.
13 MR SHELDON: Presumably it must mean that on a given case
14 you might have a number of different people working on
15 that case over time; is that right? If you have people
16 coming and going all the time?
17 MS HAYES: I do not think that tended to happen in the Duty
18 Investigation and Assessment Team so much. I could be
19 wrong but because it was short term. More long term
20 I think that would have an effect --
21 MR SHELDON: I wonder how that could be avoided. If as you
22 say there was a lot of agency staff and that sometimes
23 those staff might only stay for a matter of days, how
24 could it be avoided that some cases would be dealt with
25 by more than one person as they progressed on the team?
129
1 MS HAYES: I think people who stayed stayed and people who
2 left left very quickly. So they probably did not have
3 cases -- I mean I do not know, I am just saying I do not
4 think they would have cases allocated to them because
5 they were probably just working on Duty. But I cannot
6 recall that, somebody having an allocation case and
7 them -- it could have happened but I do not remember
8 that happening in particular.
9 MR SHELDON: Did you form a view generally or was there
10 a view on the team as to the standard of these agency
11 staff?
12 MS HAYES: No, not that I can remember.
13 MR SHELDON: No view that these agency staff that were
14 coming in and out were not up to the job or up to your
15 standards?
16 MS HAYES: No, I do not remember.
17 MR SHELDON: It would have been difficult for them, would it
18 not, if they were there for that short period of time,
19 to have become familiar with Haringey's practices and
20 procedures?
21 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
22 MR SHELDON: So they would be struggling in that respect at
23 least, would they not?
24 MS HAYES: Yes, but we all do when we start the job.
25 MR SHELDON: Yes, of course.
130
1 MS HAYES: It is the natural part of the process of working
2 for a local authority, unfortunately.
3 MR SHELDON: Did you get lots of these agency staff people
4 coming up to you saying, "What am I supposed to do with
5 this?"
6 MS HAYES: I do not remember that, but I personally think
7 that that is part of the process of learning the job
8 when you get to any local authority.
9 MR SHELDON: Now, you deal with the issue of workload in
10 your statement and you say at the time with which we
11 were concerned you had 11 cases or so open.
12 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
13 MR SHELDON: Was that a figure that would vary substantially
14 from week to week, or was that reasonably constant?
15 MS HAYES: For me I think it was reasonably constant.
16 MR SHELDON: If you have a look at volume 28A/178.559,
17 please. Now, this is one of a series of tables supplied
18 by Haringey. This is the only one that I can find which
19 mentions you. It is headed "Allocated Cases at
20 31st March 2000", and we can see there "Marina Hayes 5".
21 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
22 MR SHELDON: It looks like you had five cases then.
23 MS HAYES: Yes, I had handed them off my desk in February.
24 MR SHELDON: I see. So you were running them down, were
25 you?
131
1 MS HAYES: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: So, prior to handing in your notice, 11 or so
3 would have been a fairly constant --
4 MS HAYES: I think 11 was fairly constant before I handed in
5 my notice.
6 MR SHELDON: You left in April, did you not?
7 MS HAYES: Yes. I handed in my notice in February.
8 MR SHELDON: Were you aware of there being a local guidance
9 or guidance within the office that you were not supposed
10 to have more than 10 to 12 cases?
11 MS HAYES: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: And you felt generally that your workload
13 complied with that guidance if you had 11 commonly?
14 MS HAYES: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: Was that a workload that you regarded as
16 manageable?
17 MS HAYES: Well, yes, overall I found it manageable.
18 Sometimes it depended on what happened in the cases but
19 overall I found my case load for me was manageable.
20 MR SHELDON: But you were aware that other people on the
21 team had slightly different experiences?
22 MS HAYES: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: Which seems to suggest -- and it might be that
24 this is wrong, so if it is then say -- that perhaps not
25 much thought was given by the management of your team to
132
1 making sure that workloads were evenly distributed
2 amongst the social workers. Was that the case?
3 MS HAYES: Again, it is difficult to answer that question
4 because I do not know the rationale that managers used
5 to allocate a case, because generally it was that you
6 would have a case on your desk. So I do not know what
7 the rationale was behind who was allocated what and how
8 many cases they felt you could handle and how many
9 cases -- on what priority they put on those cases, so
10 I cannot really answer.
11 MR SHELDON: So there would be no discussion before a case
12 was allocated to you with your manager along the lines
13 of, "How are you getting on with your workload? Can you
14 manage to deal with another case?" It would just arrive
15 on your desk and you would have to make the most of it?
16 MS HAYES: From my experience that is what I had happen.
17 MR SHELDON: Did you ever take a case to a manager that had
18 been allocated in that way and say, "I have not got time
19 to deal with this, I am fully stretched"?
20 MS HAYES: No, because my case load was quite manageable.
21 MR SHELDON: Did you ever take a case to your manager and
22 say, "Look, I cannot deal with this case because I have
23 only been qualified a couple of weeks and this is
24 complicated and I am not up to it"?
25 MS HAYES: No.
133
1 MR SHELDON: Did you ever feel like doing that?
2 MS HAYES: There was one case that I suggested to
3 Carole Baptiste that I felt uncomfortable with because
4 I had not done any experience in that, and she suggested
5 that Lisa Arthurworrey join me on that case.
6 MR SHELDON: Is that what happened?
7 MS HAYES: Yes.
8 MR SHELDON: Was that a satisfactory outcome?
9 MS HAYES: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: So there was one occasion that you did feel
11 a case had been allocated to you inappropriately, you
12 raised it with your manager and it was dealt with?
13 MS HAYES: Yes, she did.
14 MR SHELDON: You say that the case would turn up on your
15 desk and it would have a list of instructions and
16 actions on it for you to do.
17 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
18 MR SHELDON: One might think that that is quite helpful.
19 You are being told exactly what you ought to be doing.
20 Was it your experience that that was not helpful?
21 MS HAYES: I did not find that helpful.
22 MR SHELDON: What did you think you needed in that case if
23 a list of instructions and actions was not sufficient?
24 MS HAYES: I would have liked somebody to sit down with me
25 and discuss the case and discuss how I was going to work
134
1 with it as well as doing the tasks.
2 MR SHELDON: I see.
3 MS HAYES: And set up some kind of timescale -- well not
4 timescales but discuss my views on the referral and the
5 general information that was in the file and how
6 I perceived the case.
7 MR SHELDON: What you refer to in paragraph 19(b) as
8 a supervision session before starting work on the case?
9 MS HAYES: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: That is what you needed?
11 MS HAYES: Yes, an introduction to the case.
12 MR SHELDON: Did managers, Carole Baptiste or Barry Almedia
13 come up to you after a case had been allocated in this
14 way after a while and say, "How are you getting on with
15 that action plan? Is everything going all right?" Or
16 were you just left completely to your own devices?
17 MS HAYES: When you had supervision, it was addressed, but
18 I think in the intermittent period you were left to --
19 you were left to carry out the tasks basically.
20 MR SHELDON: Can you estimate how many formal supervision
21 sessions you had with Carole Baptiste where you
22 discussed how you were getting on with individual cases
23 between when you started in July 1999 and when she was
24 made redundant in February 2000?
25 MS HAYES: No.
135
1 MR SHELDON: Dozens?
2 MS HAYES: From what I can remember she was not really my
3 manager after October. And it was kind of a limbo
4 period then about who was going to be the manager. From
5 what I can remember I think we were --
6 MR SHELDON: So after she ceased, as far as you were aware,
7 to be your manager in October 1999, who then was your
8 manager as far as you recall?
9 MS HAYES: I think there was some confusion about whether
10 she was still the manager or not, from what I can
11 remember --
12 MR SHELDON: And that confusion was resolved when?
13 MS HAYES: It was resolved when I was told that
14 Angella Mairs was going to be my manager and then she
15 was my manager for a very brief period and then Barry
16 became my manager -- Barry Almedia.
17 MR SHELDON: When were you told that Angella Mairs was going
18 to be your manager?
19 MS HAYES: I think it was around Christmas.
20 MR SHELDON: Then you had some supervision with
21 Angella Mairs and then Barry Almedia took over?
22 MS HAYES: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: What about that period, July 1999 to Christmas?
24 How often did you have supervision with Carole Baptiste?
25 MS HAYES: About once a month I think approximately. I do
136
1 not know.
2 MR SHELDON: So roughly half as often as you should have
3 done?
4 MS HAYES: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: Let us turn finally to 25th February 2000. You
6 tell us in your statement of two conversations you had
7 that day, one with the North Middlesex Hospital and one
8 with St Mary's Hospital, Dr Dillon. Now, you made these
9 calls at the instruction of Barry Almedia, is that
10 right?
11 MS HAYES: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: Because he handed this referral to you and
13 asked you to undertake some of the urgent action that
14 needed to be done?
15 MS HAYES: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: Presumably because it was not realised at that
17 point by Barry Almedia or anybody else that this was one
18 of Lisa Arthurworrey's cases?
19 MS HAYES: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: Because she was in the office, was she not?
21 MS HAYES: She was on duty that day as well, yes.
22 MR SHELDON: When did it become apparent that this
23 Anna Kouao was the Anna Kouao that Lisa Arthurworrey had
24 been responsible for?
25 MS HAYES: When I rang North Middlesex they said that they
137
1 had seen Anna before and she had been there during the
2 summer for scabies and then that is when I realised it
3 was Lisa's case.
4 MR SHELDON: During the course of the conversation --
5 MS HAYES: That we had with Middlesex yes.
6 MR SHELDON: Do you know what happened with the case file
7 after 25th February 2000?
8 MS HAYES: No.
9 MR SHELDON: Did you hear in the office from anybody any
10 allegation that the file had been altered either by
11 putting things in or taking things out?
12 MS HAYES: No.
13 MR SHELDON: You never got wind of anything of that sort?
14 MS HAYES: No, not that I can remember.
15 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Sheldon. Ms Lawson.
17 MS LAWSON: Just one or two matters, Ms Hayes. You were
18 telling us about your previous experience before you
19 became a qualified social worker.
20 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
21 MS LAWSON: Working in the Travellers Team. And you were
22 there for how long?
23 MS HAYES: Three and a half years.
24 MS LAWSON: You mentioned that during that time you received
25 some other training via Haringey.
138
1 MS HAYES: Yes.
2 MS LAWSON: Can you remember what any of it was or not?
3 MS HAYES: I know I did the Working Together, child
4 protection, the weekly course with the various agencies.
5 I cannot remember. Another one, how to manage difficult
6 situations or difficult clients. I cannot really
7 remember but I do know I did the Working Together one.
8 MS LAWSON: Was that something that arose out of your work
9 with the Travellers Team, or was it your own interest,
10 or how did you come to be doing that sort of thing?
11 MS HAYES: I think I wanted to do it because travellers are
12 one of those unknown quantities in social work, and
13 I think it was quite interesting to see how they fitted
14 into the whole child protection thing. Plus, it was an
15 aspect to the job, although it was not my responsibility
16 because I was a qualified social worker, but I would
17 often go out and visits with him and it was kind of
18 interesting to know --
19 MS LAWSON: So, have I understood you correctly: you are
20 saying that there was, in fact, a child protection
21 element within your work in the Travellers Team,
22 although you were doing it accompanying somebody else?
23 MS HAYES: Yes. It was just that I did not do court work.
24 I did not do that aspect of it, but I would joint work
25 cases with my colleague and go to conferences with him
139
1 and lots of police stations and things like that. But
2 I did quite a lot of joint work with the qualified
3 social worker on the team.
4 MS LAWSON: You were asked some questions about the
5 induction you had when you came to the North Tottenham
6 District Office and I think you said you were introduced
7 to other people in the office.
8 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
9 MS LAWSON: Was it any more than that? What about shadowing
10 the Duty Team? Was that something that was suggested
11 you might do?
12 MS HAYES: Yes, I did shadow the Duty Team.
13 MS LAWSON: For how long?
14 MS HAYES: I think it was for about a week, I think.
15 MS LAWSON: There was just one other matter. You were being
16 asked about the role of agency staff.
17 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
18 MS LAWSON: One of the difficulties is in terminology for
19 those of us who are not quite familiar with how it
20 worked in the North Tottenham District Office. The
21 position is there were the Intake and Assessment Teams?
22 MS HAYES: The Duty I&A Team, yes.
23 MS LAWSON: And the Duty Team we know was composed of people
24 from the Intake and Assessment Team?
25 MS HAYES: Yes.
140
1 MS LAWSON: So there was no separate Duty Team as such?
2 MS HAYES: No, there was not a separate team.
3 MS LAWSON: And cases were worked on Duty, we know, for
4 relatively short periods before being --
5 MS HAYES: Transferred to the I&A Team.
6 MS LAWSON: Now, was it your experience that the agency
7 staff that you have been telling us about were primarily
8 used to deal with the situations on Duty or was it the
9 case that they sometimes stayed for longer and were part
10 of the other teams?
11 MS HAYES: From what I can remember, agency staff who stayed
12 longer would then have a case load allocated to them.
13 But I do not remember a case load being allocated to
14 somebody who only stayed for a very brief period.
15 MS LAWSON: Thank you very much.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms Lawson. Ms Hayes, just a small
17 number of points from me. Thank you for your evidence.
18 At one stage during it you said you were getting angry,
19 which is perfectly all right.
20 MS HAYES: I am sorry.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: No, please do not apologise. I am not
22 concerned about you getting angry. That is perfectly
23 all right. I just wanted to know why you were getting
24 angry. Were you getting angry --
25 MS HAYES: I was just getting a bit defensive, sorry.
141
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you getting angry at the questions that
2 were being asked or at the memory of what you were
3 describing was happening in the office?
4 MS HAYES: Both, probably.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Give me a flavour of what the conflicts were
6 about in the office. The ones that you wanted to keep
7 out of. What kind of conflicts were they that you were
8 wanting to avoid?
9 MS HAYES: As I said, I did not really get involved in them.
10 I did not really want to know what they were about.
11 I just knew they existed. They were very clear, but
12 I never got involved in what they were about because
13 I just did not want to know.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but you must have been aware that there
15 were conflicts in the office that you wanted to avoid
16 and as you say they are very clear.
17 MS HAYES: Mm-hmm.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: You must have some idea what these conflicts
19 were about.
20 MS HAYES: I think there was historical conflicts that were
21 just never resolved. Probably nobody knew what they
22 were about. They were just part of the culture. They
23 were part of the dynamic.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: If you cannot refer the actual content, how
25 did they exhibit themselves? How were you aware of
142
1 these conflicts?
2 MS HAYES: There was just a very sort of divisive atmosphere
3 in the office. As I said, I felt like there were in
4 groups and out groups. There was a very tight group and
5 you just did what you were told and if you did not then
6 you might get shouted at or they might pick on something
7 that you have done. You know, that kind of --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Who were they that would shout at you? Who
9 were they?
10 MS HAYES: Angella Mairs. From my memory Angella Mairs and
11 Rose Kozinos.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Just one other issue: when you gave in your
13 notice and you left, were you asked to complete an exit
14 interview?
15 MS HAYES: I do not recall doing one.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Nobody asked you why you were leaving?
17 MS HAYES: Well I think the office knew why I was leaving,
18 but I do not recall ...
19 THE CHAIRMAN: You did not do an exit interview. You were
20 not given the opportunity --
21 MS HAYES: I do not remember doing one.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You were not given the opportunity of sharing
23 your thoughts?
24 MS HAYES: I do not remember, sir.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed. Mr Sheldon.
143
1 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much, sir. Nothing further from
2 me. Thank you, Ms Hayes.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 MR SHELDON: Sir, Mr Garnham will take the next witness.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Garnham.
6 MR GARNHAM: Dawn Green, please.
7 MS DAWN EVELYN GREEN (affirmed)
8 MR GARNHAM: Good afternoon, Ms Green.
9 MS GREEN: Good afternoon.
10 MR GARNHAM: Would you give us your full name, please.
11 MS GREEN: Dawn Evelyn Green.
12 MR GARNHAM: And your professional address.
13 MS GREEN: Duke House, Crouch Hall Road, Crouch End, N8.
14 MR GARNHAM: You have made one statement for this Inquiry
15 I think that we have in volume 2 at page 172.501.
16 A copy of that is now going to be put in front of you.
17 Could you glance through it, please, and confirm that
18 you have signed it and that its contents are true?
19 MS GREEN: Yes, I have signed it and its contents are true.
20 MR GARNHAM: And there are no amendments that you want to
21 make to it?
22 MS GREEN: No.
23 MR GARNHAM: I think it is right that you qualified as
24 a social worker in 1985.
25 MS GREEN: Yes.
144
1 MR GARNHAM: That you initially worked as a mental health
2 locum social worker, then as a field social worker in
3 a Children and Families Long Term Team. Where was that?
4 MS GREEN: That was in Hackney.
5 MR GARNHAM: Then in March 1991 you moved to Haringey as
6 a Child Protection Advisor.
7 MS GREEN: That is right.
8 MR GARNHAM: Five matters I want to ask you about, Ms Green,
9 and so you know where we are going let me tell you what
10 those five matters are now. I want to ask you first
11 about the nature of a child protection advisor's job;
12 your experiences of working in the North Tottenham
13 District Office; your involvement with the Moira Close
14 Family Centre; your role in securing the Haringey files
15 after Victoria's death and the strategy meeting that
16 followed Victoria's death.
17 MS GREEN: Okay.
18 MR GARNHAM: So let us start, please, with the role of
19 a child protection advisor. We have your job
20 description in volume 16. Perhaps you could be shown
21 that. Page 54.
22 MS GREEN: Okay.
23 MR GARNHAM: We have seen others of these but I wonder if
24 you could help me with understanding how these are set
25 out. Yours is divided into two parts: basic objectives
145
1 of post and main objectives and responsibilities. What
2 do you understand to be the difference?
3 MS GREEN: I think the basic objectives are the overall
4 objectives of the post and the duties and
5 responsibilities are how you would actually carry out
6 those overall objectives.
7 MR GARNHAM: I see. The reason I ask is that the first
8 basic objective is said to be undertaking child
9 protection case conferences and the first main duty is
10 to chair child protection case conferences. Is there
11 any subtlety in that distinction that escapes me?
12 MS GREEN: I cannot see any.
13 MR GARNHAM: Does it mean the chairing of case conferences
14 was regarded as a particularly important part of your
15 job because it appears in both sections?
16 MS GREEN: I would suggest that is the case.
17 MR GARNHAM: How often did you in fact get to chair child
18 protection case conferences when you were at Haringey?
19 MS GREEN: I did two to three a week. That is statutory
20 child protection case conferences. I would also be
21 doing strategy reviews on children being looked after by
22 the local authority and that would be one or two a week.
23 MR GARNHAM: Could you have volume 45A, please,
24 page 150.639. This is your statement to Mr Monaghan who
25 was preparing a report. You say at the end of your
146
1 statement to him that you were seldom invited to chair
2 strategy meetings.
3 MS GREEN: (Witness nods).
4 MR GARNHAM: So I am right, am I, to see the degree of your
5 involvement as being very different as regards on the
6 one hand case conferences and on the other strategy
7 meetings?
8 MS GREEN: Absolutely.
9 MR GARNHAM: Can you explain to us why that is so, please.
10 MS GREEN: Child protection case conferences are under the
11 auspices of the ACPC and they were expected to be
12 chaired independently, and in my case the independence
13 was independently of case responsibility.
14 MR GARNHAM: I see.
15 MS GREEN: And it was very much the same with "looked after
16 reviews" in terms of chairing those. Strategy meetings
17 were held in the office on a regular basis and I would
18 say were the bread and butter work of the district
19 offices.
20 MR GARNHAM: So, in a sense, the strategy meeting is an
21 integral part of the process of a single case -- cases
22 management, whereas case conferences are seen as
23 something independent to review where the case worker
24 has got to?
25 MS GREEN: And multiagency of course.
147
1 MR GARNHAM: Yes. Can you go back to your job description,
2 please. The second of the main duties:
3 "To ensure that strategy reviews and child
4 protection case conferences are undertaken."
5 How do you ensure that? Is it by your doing them?
6 MS GREEN: As the Chair, and along with the other people at
7 the case conference, you would be looking at social
8 workers' assessments. You would be asking questions
9 about the assessments, about the work they were
10 undertaking, that they had undertaken; what conclusions
11 they had come to and that was very much part of the
12 chair's responsibility as well as other people there.
13 So other people like parents would be asking
14 questions of the assessment, what work was undertaken,
15 and also as part of that process we would meet with
16 parents and talk to parents about their views about how
17 the process had gone, if there were particular questions
18 that they wanted to ask through me, and I would explain
19 the purpose of the meeting and all of that to them.
20 Also, everyone at that meeting would participate by
21 giving information, either written or verbal, which was
22 up for -- which was evidence presented to the case
23 conference which people could discuss or question and
24 formally comment on.
25 MR GARNHAM: So you would do it through the mechanism of the
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1 chair?
2 MS GREEN: I would do it through the mechanism of the chair
3 but I would also say that it was everyone's
4 responsibility at that case conference to ensure that
5 they presented their relevant information --
6 MR GARNHAM: I am sure, but this job description suggests
7 you have an overarching role.
8 MS GREEN: I do have an overall role, responsibility, yes.
9 MR GARNHAM: Paragraph 4:
10 "To ensure records of meetings."
11 That presumably refers to the sort of meetings you
12 have been talking about?
13 MS GREEN: Yes, those were minuted by one of our
14 administrators and as Chair you would be responsible for
15 checking those minutes were an accurate reflection of
16 what had taken place and indeed agree the care plan
17 recommendations.
18 MR GARNHAM: But we should read paragraph 4, should we, as
19 meaning to ensure records of meetings of the sort
20 described above rather than of all meetings?
21 MS GREEN: Absolutely.
22 MR GARNHAM: Because you would not have a role in ensuring
23 that the records of strategy meetings were adequate?
24 MS GREEN: No, this is referring to case conferences.
25 MR GARNHAM: Over the page, how do you go about assisting
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1 with the development and maintenance of systems to
2 ensure decision-making and planning are of high quality?
3 MS GREEN: Well, one of our roles is actually to develop
4 policy guidance and procedures in order to assist people
5 in following out their main duties. We are also
6 involved in training so we would be training social
7 workers and team managers in the systems already in
8 place in Haringey to assist them in --
9 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. I am sorry, I cut you off.
10 MS GREEN: No, that is fine.
11 MR GARNHAM: Next, how do you monitor and evaluate child
12 care work in the department using quality assurance
13 methods and systems and produce reports? What is the
14 practicalities of that?
15 MS GREEN: We were a quality and assurance team and still
16 are.
17 MR GARNHAM: So what did you do?
18 MS GREEN: We undertake audits.
19 MR GARNHAM: That is audits of all types of work that was
20 carried out in the department?
21 MS GREEN: Yes. The senior management would decide which
22 parts of the local authority might need auditing. So
23 sometimes it was in-house, i.e. -- well, it was always
24 in-house but it might be the districts like the I&A
25 Team, how were they functioning? Was it to a high
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1 quality standard? And as a team we would carry out
2 those audits.
3 MR GARNHAM: The list that we see on that page, does that
4 accurately reflect the way you would spend your time?
5 Were there other things you would do or does this list
6 of 19 tasks cover it?
7 MS GREEN: I am looking quickly through. The only thing
8 that I can see that is not there is that we used to
9 investigate allegations against other professionals.
10 I cannot see that there. It might be.
11 MR GARNHAM: I remember you refer to that elsewhere in your
12 evidence.
13 MS GREEN: We also used to -- if there were complex child
14 abuse rings or organised abuse rings we would be
15 involved in some of those and I have been in the past.
16 MR GARNHAM: Is that a case management role?
17 MS GREEN: No.
18 MR GARNHAM: Are you actually handling the case or are you
19 still advising?
20 MS GREEN: No, we would be part of the investigative team
21 which would be about investigating children's evidence
22 and statements.
23 MR GARNHAM: So the impression left from a review of those
24 lists of objectives suggests that you are to be in
25 a position to get a feel of how competently work is
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