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Archived Transcript for 29 November 2001:
Pages 1 to 50
1
1 Thursday, 29th November 2001
2 (10.00 am)
3 MR GARNHAM: Good morning sir. Mr Sheldon will call the
4 first two witnesses.
5 MR SHELDON: Thank you sir. The first witness is
6 Barry Almedia.
7 MR BARRY ALMEDIA (sworn)
8 MR SHELDON: Good morning Mr Almedia.
9 MR ALMEDIA: Good morning.
10 MR SHELDON: Would you confirm your full name and
11 professional address.
12 MR ALMEDIA: My name is Barry Almedia and my professional
13 address 768-772 High Road, Tottenham, London N17 0BU.
14 MR SHELDON: You have made a statement for use by this
15 Inquiry. It looks as though you have brought your own
16 copy but perhaps you could look at the one in front of
17 you. Turn to the last page of it please. Is that your
18 signature at the bottom?
19 MR ALMEDIA: It is.
20 MR SHELDON: Are you happy that the facts and matters set
21 out in that statement are true?
22 MR ALMEDIA: I would like to amend paragraph 3 and 4 of
23 "Work Experience".
24 MR SHELDON: Certainly.
25 MR ALMEDIA: Shall I read the amendments? I wish to change
2
1 in paragraph 3 that I was actually Manager in Tower
2 Gardens from 1997 to 1998, and then a switch took place
3 in the authority from generic to specialist teams in
4 about 1996, that is the last sentence. I became then --
5 paragraph 4 -- I became Senior Practitioner in 1995. In
6 1998 I went into the Duty Investigation and Assessment
7 Team as Senior Practitioner.
8 MR SHELDON: In paragraph 3, 1996 needs to be amended to
9 read 1997, and in paragraph 4, 1998 should read 1995 and
10 1999 should read 1998?
11 MR ALMEDIA: That is correct.
12 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much. You started work for
13 Haringey then in November 1989, is that right?
14 MR ALMEDIA: That is right.
15 MR SHELDON: And as you now say you were an Acting Team
16 Manager between 1997 and 1998.
17 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: In 1995 you became a senior practitioner.
19 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: You say your team manager was Brian Payne,
21 1st floor. What does 1st floor mean?
22 MR ALMEDIA: That was Apex House.
23 MR SHELDON: What happened on the first floor?
24 MR ALMEDIA: It was part of the reorganisation, I believe
25 and my recollection is that we were moving towards the
3
1 One Stop Shops and I was temporarily seconded to
2 supervise reception and the eligibility criteria when
3 these changes were taking place.
4 MR SHELDON: As you now say 1998 was when you became
5 a senior practitioner in the Investigation and
6 Assessment Team and as I understand it you were in
7 Carole Baptiste's group until the reorganisation.
8 MR ALMEDIA: That is correct.
9 MR SHELDON: You are currently under suspension?
10 MR ALMEDIA: That is correct.
11 MR SHELDON: Is that suspension in any way linked to
12 Victoria's case?
13 MR ALMEDIA: It is not, in no way. It is not connected to
14 Victoria's case.
15 MR SHELDON: You touch on the restructuring that took place
16 in late 1999 in your statement and we have heard other
17 evidence on that so I will not trouble you for long
18 about it. But in essence what it achieved was to reduce
19 the number of team managers?
20 MR ALMEDIA: That is correct, yes.
21 MR SHELDON: But not as I understand it the number of senior
22 practitioners?
23 MR ALMEDIA: No.
24 MR SHELDON: You were just renamed as practice managers. Is
25 that right?
4
1 MR ALMEDIA: I think there was some confusion at the time
2 about what the plans were. Eventually amongst practice
3 managers it was believed there would possibly be job
4 losses.
5 MR SHELDON: You thought that you might have to go through
6 this process that the team managers went through of
7 applying to keep your jobs?
8 MR ALMEDIA: That is right.
9 MR SHELDON: How long were you under that impression for?
10 How long did you think that was a possibility?
11 MR ALMEDIA: Precise dates I cannot be sure but it was
12 several months.
13 MR SHELDON: Do you remember when it was announced that that
14 would not be the case and that you would all be keeping
15 your jobs?
16 MR ALMEDIA: I think probably about the latter part of 1999.
17 MR SHELDON: Prior to that announcement, so when you thought
18 there was a possibility that you might have to reapply
19 for your job, what effect did that have on your morale?
20 MR ALMEDIA: I think morale became rather shaky. People
21 were rather concerned about losing their jobs and also
22 having to go through, from what we could tell from the
23 managers, quite an exhaustive, rigorous interview.
24 MR SHELDON: Was that something you felt personally?
25 MR ALMEDIA: I did so, yes.
5
1 MR SHELDON: When you say in paragraph 13 of your statement
2 that in late 1999 it was a stressful place for
3 supervisors, you would include yourself within that?
4 MR ALMEDIA: I think yes I would, yes.
5 MR SHELDON: Turning to your role as a senior practitioner,
6 you refer us to volume 16 page 92 for a job description.
7 I wonder if you could have a look at that now. That is
8 a job description for a practice manager, which as
9 I understand it is what senior practitioners are now
10 known as.
11 MR ALMEDIA: That is right.
12 MR SHELDON: Was it your understanding that this job
13 description would have applied to your role as a senior
14 practitioner prior to the restructuring or is this a new
15 role?
16 MR ALMEDIA: The practice managers were on I think it was
17 PO2 grade before and it was enhanced. In other words in
18 terms of responsibilities my understanding (inaudible)
19 the duty responsibilities here are more or less the
20 same.
21 MR SHELDON: So in terms of basic objectives of post, those
22 are in essence the basic objectives that you had as
23 a senior practitioner prior to the restructuring?
24 MR ALMEDIA: I would have thought so, yes.
25 MR SHELDON: I find some of this document hard to follow,
6
1 for example the first line it says you are to be
2 responsible for specific responsibilities for
3 professional and workload performance. It might not be
4 that I need to get you to translate that but what I want
5 to understand is were you clear as to what your basic
6 objectives and your role was or were you confused as
7 well?
8 MR ALMEDIA: I think that in terms of our responsibility for
9 ensuring departmental standards were maintained and
10 statutory obligations were maintained I was clear about
11 those roles, yes.
12 MR SHELDON: You were happy you knew what your job was in
13 terms of what you needed to do and in terms of your
14 responsibility in relation to more junior members of
15 staff?
16 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: To what extent in that case did you feel that
18 you were in any way responsible for monitoring the
19 standard of work of more junior members of the team?
20 MR ALMEDIA: I think that all the practice managers or
21 senior practitioners at the time, as I say one of our
22 primary responsibilities was to ensure that departmental
23 procedures were followed, statutory obligations were met
24 and we would monitor our social workers' performance to
25 make sure these were in fact met.
7
1 MR SHELDON: So you would in your day-to-day practice be
2 keeping an eye on the way in which more junior members
3 of staff were handling their cases?
4 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: You said to Mr Monaghan or at least he records
6 you as saying that you only had case responsibilities,
7 sir the reference is volume 45A page 150.660. Do you
8 recall saying that to Mr Monaghan, that your only case
9 responsibilities -- perhaps you had better be shown it.
10 Page 150.660. Third paragraph down, about halfway
11 through that paragraph:
12 "During this period I was the senior practitioner
13 and only had case responsibilities. Management
14 responsibilities were divided between Angella Mairs and
15 Carole Baptiste."
16 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: What did you mean by only having case
18 responsibilities?
19 MR ALMEDIA: I think by then -- I think my recollection is
20 that at that time I was doing an NVQ as part of my
21 management training and as a consequence of that I was
22 not supervising social workers at the time, which
23 enabled me to, I think it was an agreement Angella -- my
24 recollection is that it was an agreement between.
25 MR SHELDON: You and Angella Mairs?
8
1 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, my recollection.
2 MR SHELDON: Just so I understand it, is the position this:
3 my understanding is that your role included the
4 supervision of more junior members of staff in their
5 day-to-day case handling?
6 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: But at the time with which we are concerned you
8 were doing a management NVQ so you were relieved of
9 those responsibilities by Angella Mairs?
10 MR ALMEDIA: That is my recollection, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: So in the second half of 1999 for example you
12 were not supervising the day-to-day casework of junior
13 workers because you had your hands full with your own
14 work plus your management NVQ?
15 MR ALMEDIA: And also I was covering Duty as well which
16 meant that I was -- I mean I had -- I regularly did Duty
17 which meant that I obviously had opportunities to assess
18 workers and provide supervision.
19 MR SHELDON: Can you remember the context of this agreement
20 between you and Angella Mairs? Was that during the
21 course of a supervision or was it a letter; how did it
22 come about?
23 MR ALMEDIA: My recollection, it was an agreement that was
24 made between us when I commenced the course or when
25 I applied or started on the course.
9
1 MR SHELDON: Orally?
2 MR ALMEDIA: Probably orally.
3 MR SHELDON: You had a conversation?
4 MR ALMEDIA: That is my recollection.
5 MR SHELDON: We will come on to the details of this in
6 a moment but in general terms there was a problem, was
7 there not, on your team, as far as supervision was
8 concerned, and particularly in relation to
9 Carole Baptiste's availability?
10 MR ALMEDIA: There was, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: And there had been a meeting with David Duncan
12 that you refer to where people had raised their concerns
13 about the fact that she was not available for much of
14 the time?
15 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: Given that, given that the team manager was not
17 supervising cases, it does not seem sensible, does it,
18 to also relieve the senior practitioner of his
19 supervisory role so that he is not supervising either?
20 MR ALMEDIA: That is a conclusion, I mean, it might be
21 drawn.
22 MR SHELDON: Yes. One of the matters you do not deal with
23 in very much detail in your statement is the issue of
24 workloads in the team, in the second half of 1999. Did
25 you personally first of all feel under pressure as
10
1 a result of the volume of work in the office at that
2 point?
3 MR ALMEDIA: I think, yes, I personally did, yes.
4 MR SHELDON: Did you get the impression that your more
5 junior staff were feeling that pressure too?
6 MR ALMEDIA: I think so, yes.
7 MR SHELDON: Was it simply a case of just not enough people
8 around to do too high a number of cases?
9 MR ALMEDIA: I think probably that I would have preferred to
10 have more social workers, larger teams, but I think the
11 complexity of the cases, sometimes inexperience of
12 staff, sometimes the staff turnover or complicated --
13 made it difficult to meet time scales.
14 MR SHELDON: I want to deal with that in a moment but for
15 the time being I would like to know whether or not you
16 were aware in the second half of 1999 of Angella Mairs'
17 guidance -- sir, for your reference 26A/019 -- that
18 there should only be 10 to 12 cases maximum open on any
19 individual social worker's desk. Were you aware of
20 that?
21 MR ALMEDIA: I understood that to be the working, yes, that
22 was the working directive, yes.
23 MR SHELDON: But that can only be, as I understand it,
24 a rule of thumb, because some cases are far more complex
25 and time-consuming than others?
11
1 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: So it cannot just be a number. You need to
3 also assess in relation to each worker the size of the
4 cases that they are dealing with?
5 MR ALMEDIA: Complexity of the cases, yes.
6 MR SHELDON: In assessing that, so doing the slightly more
7 difficult task of not just knowing how many cases
8 a social worker has open but also assessing what that
9 means in terms of workload and how much time they need
10 to spend working, you have a role to play in that, do
11 you not, by observing your junior staff and informing
12 management if they seem overworked?
13 MR ALMEDIA: There was not a weighting procedure in place in
14 the team. I mean, our role was that if staff were not
15 meeting their statutory responsibilities or procedural
16 requirements then yes we had the role to -- and because
17 cases were not being processed within time scales, yes,
18 then definitely.
19 MR SHELDON: Were you instructed at any point by
20 Carole Baptiste, your manager, to look at the workloads
21 of your team and to assess whether or not they were
22 manageable?
23 MR ALMEDIA: I cannot recollect.
24 MR SHELDON: I am quoting from your job description that we
25 looked at earlier and I will read it out. It may be
12
1 that you recognise it. It is basic objective 2:
2 "As directed by the Team Manager to contribute to
3 the management of the workload of the team in line with
4 statutory requirements, department policies and
5 objectives."
6 Were you contributing to the management of the
7 workload of the team?
8 MR ALMEDIA: I think yes, I mean within the team, within the
9 team meetings which were held regularly on Wednesdays,
10 in the practice managers' meetings on meetings or the
11 meeting between myself and Carole these issues were
12 raised, yes.
13 MR SHELDON: So you would say to Carole, "Some of the social
14 workers on the team have just got too much work to be
15 able to cope with"?
16 MR ALMEDIA: I would have had to be specific on different
17 cases, different individuals.
18 MR SHELDON: But in respect to some individuals is that the
19 sort of conversation that you might be having in the
20 second half of 1999?
21 MR ALMEDIA: I mean, to be specific I would have to be able
22 to talk about a particular case and circumstances.
23 MR SHELDON: Did you ever say to Carole Baptiste,
24 "Lisa Arthurworrey has got 18/19 cases open, she cannot
25 cope with that volume of work, I think we should do
13
1 something about it"?
2 MR ALMEDIA: I think one of the problems with workers who
3 work at carrying excessive case loads, I was not -- as
4 I say it would be specific individuals, if they were to
5 tell me they had or were unable to meet their statutory
6 requirements or procedural requirements then I would
7 raise it with Carole, yes.
8 MR SHELDON: Did Lisa Arthurworrey ever say to you, "I have
9 got 18, 19 cases open, it is too much, I cannot cope"?
10 MR ALMEDIA: I think in context.
11 MR SHELDON: Did she or not?
12 MR ALMEDIA: Formally, no, I do not think she did.
13 MR SHELDON: Informally?
14 MR ALMEDIA: Formally I do not think she approached me.
15 MR SHELDON: Did she do it informally?
16 MR ALMEDIA: Within the context of the team I was aware that
17 the case loads for different workers varied, fluctuated.
18 But I did not -- I would not say second guess Carole but
19 I did not approach her workers informally or, you know,
20 directly, I mean I would have probably --
21 MR SHELDON: They are your workers too, are they not?
22 MR ALMEDIA: They are but Carole was Team Manager with
23 ultimate responsibility.
24 MR SHELDON: I still do not feel we have got quite to the
25 bottom of the question of whether or not you were aware
14
1 in the second half of 1999 that Lisa Arthurworrey was
2 carrying too many cases.
3 MR ALMEDIA: For me to reply categorically I do not think
4 I can. From my recollection of the time and place,
5 I knew there were worries within the team about the
6 pressure of work and I knew that social workers felt
7 that they were being stretched quite a lot. If workers
8 had over 12 cases it was not an issue that I would
9 directly raise either with Carole or with Angella
10 specifically.
11 MR SHELDON: So although you cannot recall specifics in
12 particular in relation to Lisa Arthurworrey, you were
13 aware that at this time some individuals on the team
14 were carrying too many cases and finding it difficult to
15 cope?
16 MR ALMEDIA: I was aware that some were, yes.
17 MR SHELDON: Were you fielding that information on to
18 anybody?
19 MR ALMEDIA: I think it was not as I say an issue that arose
20 specifically. It was a general problem of case
21 turnover, of meeting our requirements, whether it is
22 child protection requirements or children in need
23 requirements. There was a general feeling that as
24 a whole the I&A Team, people said, was fairly swamped by
25 the amount of work that was coming in.
15
1 MR SHELDON: Did that swapping lead to a general feeling
2 that it was preferable to close cases sooner rather than
3 later?
4 MR ALMEDIA: No, I think what the attitude, the climate and
5 opinion was I think it was probably that people -- or
6 certainly the impression I got was that people had to
7 tough it out. I mean really that was the general
8 feeling, that though workers did exceed their particular
9 case loads, the recommended 10 or 12, the general
10 feeling was that you know, that workers needed to be
11 able to improvise or to be able to meet the requirements
12 no matter what.
13 MR SHELDON: It is probably the most obvious solution if you
14 feel swamped with work and you have too many cases, the
15 obvious thing to try and do is close as many of those
16 cases as you can as quickly as possible. Were you aware
17 of people trying to do that?
18 MR ALMEDIA: Within the context of Duty, yes, I think there
19 was certainly that.
20 MR SHELDON: Maybe not necessarily closing cases where there
21 was still specific identified work to be done but
22 perhaps not trying to make life harder for yourself by
23 chasing up people who do not return phone calls, for
24 example. Were you aware of that being a general
25 atmosphere in the office?
16
1 MR ALMEDIA: No, from a management point of view we
2 attempted -- well we did attempt to keep standards as
3 high as possible.
4 MR SHELDON: Yes. But you do say to Mr Monaghan that it
5 was, and you had better have a look at this because it
6 might be significant, page 150.661. It is the second
7 page of your statement, fourth paragraph down. Fourth
8 line:
9 "Where stress affected people in terms of resources
10 it could be possible that they took their eyes off the
11 ball."
12 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
13 MR SHELDON: Now, what do you mean "could be possible"? Did
14 they take their eye off the ball or did they not?
15 MR ALMEDIA: I think partly that context was the managers
16 themselves were under the requirement of preparing to
17 undergo interview for their jobs.
18 MR SHELDON: So you are saying here that managers took their
19 eye off the ball rather than social workers?
20 MR ALMEDIA: I think the additional pressure, the additional
21 pressure brought about by the restructuring did, as
22 I said earlier on, did affect the morale and the
23 competency of the team.
24 MR SHELDON: Did it affect your competency?
25 MR ALMEDIA: I think so, probably, yes. I think everybody
17
1 was affected, everybody who -- practice managers or
2 senior practitioners or managers were certainly
3 affected, yes.
4 MR SHELDON: Further down:
5 "The service we provided at that time did not slide
6 appreciably but may have tilted."
7 What do you mean by that?
8 MR ALMEDIA: Again, I mean, I think it is in the context of
9 the supervision that Carole was probably offering at the
10 time.
11 MR SHELDON: You use "we" there. Do you mean you and
12 Carole --
13 MR ALMEDIA: I think probably as the management of the team
14 at that time, as I say, had had this additional burden
15 of worry, which obviously affected our concentration.
16 MR SHELDON: That meant you did not provide -- when you say
17 "service" here, do you mean service to your junior staff
18 or service to the children you were concerned with?
19 MR ALMEDIA: I think probably both actually.
20 MR SHELDON: Is this something you were aware of at the
21 time? Were you aware at the time that service standards
22 were slipping?
23 MR ALMEDIA: My recollection -- no, my recollection is that
24 we -- I think there were several memos which were sent
25 by, if my recollection is correct --
18
1 MR SHELDON: Several memos about what?
2 MR ALMEDIA: About the effect of restructuring and the
3 possibility of practice managers going for their jobs
4 and so on.
5 MR SHELDON: The effect of restructuring on service
6 provision?
7 MR ALMEDIA: No, on the general functioning of the team.
8 MR SHELDON: If you can understand, what we are most
9 concerned with is not how managers were feeling in 1999
10 but what the service was like to the children they were
11 responsible for. So what I want to understand is was
12 this restructuring and this dip in morale affecting the
13 levels of service or was it just that people were
14 slightly more fed up than they might otherwise have
15 been?
16 MR ALMEDIA: I think that we endeavoured to maintain a high
17 level of service.
18 MR SHELDON: I am sure you did but you seem to be suggesting
19 to Mr Monaghan that despite your attempts it was
20 tilting, slipping, not as good as it could have been.
21 Is that right?
22 MR ALMEDIA: I think that on reflection, in consideration,
23 I would probably say that what I think I was trying to
24 convey to Mr Monaghan was obviously being involved in
25 the actual functioning of the team, it may be possible
19
1 that outside parties who were probably looking at it
2 more objectively may well have been able to identify
3 falling standards but as far as I was aware we
4 endeavoured to keep standards at the highest possible
5 level.
6 MR SHELDON: It is your awareness that I am keen to
7 understand. Are you saying that despite what it says
8 here and the evidence to Mr Monaghan, are you saying
9 despite the dip in morale caused by the restructuring
10 process and the stress of staff, service levels remained
11 as good as they had been, or are you saying that they
12 dipped?
13 MR ALMEDIA: I am saying that we maintained them as well as
14 before, yes.
15 MR SHELDON: So there was no effect of the restructuring and
16 the reduction in morale on service provision to your
17 clients?
18 MR ALMEDIA: No, the point I was trying to make was that
19 subjectively, I was aware that -- I mean obviously I was
20 obviously aware that subjectively we endeavoured, and by
21 supervisory roles, to keep standards high but it is
22 possible that objectively --
23 MR SHELDON: They fell.
24 MR ALMEDIA: They may have tilted. That is one of the
25 concerns I think everybody had at the time.
20
1 MR SHELDON: Everybody was concerned at the time you say
2 about the possibility of falling standards.
3 MR ALMEDIA: No. I am just saying that.
4 MR SHELDON: You say they may have tilted. That is one of
5 the concerns I think everybody had at the time. So are
6 you saying that everybody was concerned at the time
7 about tilting, slipping, falling standards?
8 MR ALMEDIA: No, I am saying that the pressure that managers
9 were under, obviously the pressure that -- what I am
10 saying, the pressure that managers were under, the
11 pressures also that senior practitioners -- the
12 insecurity that pervaded the supervisory staff at that
13 time, in terms, purely in psychological terms, was
14 sufficient to raise issues about whether or not we
15 objectively were able to function at previous levels of
16 service.
17 MR SHELDON: Let us move on to the issue of allocation of
18 cases. Was it your understanding in late 1999 that
19 there should have been regular allocation meetings?
20 MR ALMEDIA: We began a process of regular allocation
21 meetings, yes.
22 MR SHELDON: Did you have regular allocation meetings?
23 MR ALMEDIA: I think we did arrange -- no, we did not have
24 regular -- it began I think with one or two and then ...
25 MR SHELDON: Petered out?
21
1 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: Because we have heard evidence from
3 Miss Arthurworrey and Valerie Robertson to the effect
4 that cases could just be plonked on a social worker's
5 desk without them knowing about it and they just come
6 into the office and find a case there. Was that your
7 experience?
8 MR ALMEDIA: I had heard that that had happened from
9 different team members at the time, yes.
10 MR SHELDON: Who was responsible? Who was plonking the
11 cases on the desk? Who was responsible for allocating
12 cases in that team in the second half of 1999?
13 MR ALMEDIA: Probably our case allocation would be done by
14 team managers, so it could have been either Carole or
15 Angella.
16 MR SHELDON: Not you?
17 MR ALMEDIA: I did not have -- no.
18 MR SHELDON: You never played any role in case allocation?
19 MR ALMEDIA: No.
20 MR SHELDON: Were cases just allocated to you by being left
21 on your desk without any warning and you found them in
22 the morning when you came in?
23 MR ALMEDIA: If cases were allocated to me it would be
24 either I would be informed orally or there would be some
25 discussion.
22
1 MR SHELDON: You were always warned rather than just finding
2 it on your desk, were you?
3 MR ALMEDIA: In my own case, yes.
4 MR SHELDON: Were you aware of the way in which cases were
5 being allocated to junior staff, by just leaving them on
6 a desk without any warning?
7 MR ALMEDIA: I think there was a meeting in July about this
8 issue, which was one of the reasons why there was
9 a system of allocation meetings were set up.
10 MR SHELDON: And during the course of that meeting the
11 concerns about this method of allocation, i.e. just on
12 the desk without any warning, that was raised, was it?
13 MR ALMEDIA: I believe it was, yes.
14 MR SHELDON: And the way in which that was going to be
15 addressed was the allocation meetings?
16 MR ALMEDIA: That is right, yes.
17 MR SHELDON: But they petered out after the first one or
18 two?
19 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: So it was as you were, was it, back to plonking
21 them on the desk?
22 MR ALMEDIA: Again, I cannot be specific about that.
23 Different social workers were allocated cases in
24 different ways, yes.
25 MR SHELDON: Was there any system in place that you were
23
1 aware of at the time to ensure the even distribution of
2 cases amongst the social workers, so to ensure that
3 everybody was doing roughly the same amount of work?
4 MR ALMEDIA: Cases were allocated, case loads were written
5 on the board which could give you an indication of how
6 many cases individuals were carrying at a particular
7 time.
8 MR SHELDON: So when considering who to allocate a case to,
9 Carole Baptiste could look at some board in the office
10 and see who had a lighter case load, could she?
11 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, or she could get information from the Duty
12 clerks or from the admin officer or the team.
13 MR SHELDON: Was any thought given to whether or not
14 a particular social worker was appropriately qualified
15 to do a particular case, for example if the case was
16 a child protection case, was there a system in place to
17 ensure that only a social worker who was memorandum
18 trained got that case?
19 MR ALMEDIA: In particular specific child protection cases,
20 if a case did require memorandum interview and the
21 social worker was not memorandum trained the general
22 practice was either to get them to cowork it with
23 another social worker who had got that training.
24 MR SHELDON: But this was all down to Carole Baptiste, was
25 it? Who got what case was entirely up to her or
24
1 Angella Mairs?
2 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, those were the --
3 MR SHELDON: Not something you played any part in at all?
4 MR ALMEDIA: Not during 1999 I do not think so, no.
5 MR SHELDON: Do you recall going to either of those two
6 managers at any stage during the second half of 1999 and
7 saying, "You are giving such and such an inexperienced
8 social worker too complicated cases," or "you should
9 make sure this junior member of staff does not have
10 anything that is too difficult"? Do you recall that
11 sort of conversation?
12 MR ALMEDIA: Well, the allocation of cases would take place
13 also with discussion of supervision so the suitability
14 of a social worker for a particular case would have been
15 raised there, or if there were -- if the social worker
16 had misgivings about that then it would have
17 presumably -- it would have come up I would have thought
18 in supervision.
19 MR SHELDON: Yes, but what I asked you was whether you ever
20 fed information to your managers about the workload or
21 allocation of cases to your junior members of staff.
22 Did you ever do that?
23 MR ALMEDIA: I think I probably -- I think I did at certain
24 stages, yes.
25 MR SHELDON: But you cannot remember?
25
1 MR ALMEDIA: Not specifically, not over this period of time,
2 no.
3 MR SHELDON: You say in paragraph 11 of your statement that
4 the office was fully staffed in the second half of 1999.
5 Does that remain your recollection?
6 MR ALMEDIA: As far as I can remember.
7 MR SHELDON: Paragraph 11, the office was "fully staffed".
8 Is that right?
9 MR ALMEDIA: I said generally speaking.
10 MR SHELDON: Yes, is that right?
11 MR ALMEDIA: We did have -- I think that was my recollection
12 at the time I made the statement.
13 MR SHELDON: Was it the case, has your recollection changed?
14 MR ALMEDIA: No.
15 MR SHELDON: Was it the case that there was a high turnover
16 of staff at the time?
17 MR ALMEDIA: I think there was. My recollection was that
18 there was quite a high turnover of staff, yes.
19 MR SHELDON: And quite a lot of agency staff coming in and
20 out?
21 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
22 MR SHELDON: We have heard evidence that sometimes they
23 could stay for only a day or so, is that right?
24 MR ALMEDIA: That is right.
25 MR SHELDON: That is far from ideal, is it not?
26
1 MR ALMEDIA: I think it is far from ideal.
2 MR SHELDON: Continuity is something that will often be
3 quite important in dealing with the sort of cases that
4 you might be dealing with in that office?
5 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: So did that high turnover of staff, agency
7 staff coming in and out for day or so, did that have an
8 impact on the level of service you provided?
9 MR ALMEDIA: I think it did, yes.
10 MR SHELDON: Did it make it worse?
11 MR ALMEDIA: Make it worse, yes.
12 MR SHELDON: It also meant, did it not, that less serious
13 cases would sometimes, for example family support cases,
14 would sometimes be passed to unqualified social workers?
15 MR ALMEDIA: Social services officers.
16 MR SHELDON: So people who had not got the diploma?
17 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, social services officers.
18 MR SHELDON: And they would be required, despite being
19 unqualified, to deal with those sort of family support
20 cases?
21 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, family support cases.
22 MR SHELDON: Under senior practitioner or practice manager's
23 supervision?
24 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
25 MR SHELDON: Could you have a look at volume 2, page 242.
27
1 Page 241, you will see what this document is, it is
2 notes of a meeting held with the Leader of the Council
3 Mr Meehan on 29th February 2000 and if you go to page
4 242, we see a heading "Recruitment." It says there:
5 "The service is carrying a large number of
6 vacancies. In some cases including child protection
7 cases have management cover only. It has not been
8 possible to fully cover with agency staff and even where
9 identified rates have been raised to £40 an hour, social
10 work appointments can take an average of three months
11 from advertisement to appointment."
12 Pausing there, does that all sound fairly familiar
13 to you?
14 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, it does.
15 MR SHELDON: Moving on:
16 "With the current shortage of social workers there
17 is no guarantee of suitable appointees to all vacancies.
18 It was accepted that there is no short-term solution
19 other than current strategy, which includes allocation
20 of some lower level work (family support) to unqualified
21 staff working to a practice manager as a holding
22 operation. This is frowned upon by the Department of
23 Health and cannot be a long-term solution."
24 A number of points arise out of that. The first is
25 that it does not seem to square with your assertion that
28
1 the office was fully staffed. It seems there were a lot
2 of vacancies. I know that that is February 2000 and we
3 were talking about the second half of 1999. Did the
4 situation deteriorate?
5 MR ALMEDIA: I think it deteriorated because we had staff
6 members who had some -- either transferred to different
7 teams or social workers who had been in the borough for
8 many years, given many years' service, and were very
9 experienced -- this is towards the latter part
10 of February 2000.
11 MR SHELDON: Yes.
12 MR ALMEDIA: And I think the situation had deteriorated.
13 MR SHELDON: When did it start to get worse?
14 MR ALMEDIA: Well, I think people transferred out of the
15 team or went to different offices and I understand that
16 three practice managers resigned because of the
17 proposals for restructuring, so there was a drift away
18 from the social work staff who had been in the
19 department for long years, many years' experience.
20 MR SHELDON: By February 2000 there were lots of vacancies?
21 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
22 MR SHELDON: And some cases were having to be transferred to
23 unqualified workers, despite that being frowned upon by
24 the Department of Health?
25 MR ALMEDIA: This is what Councillor Meehan --
29
1 MR SHELDON: I wonder if that accords with your
2 recollection.
3 MR ALMEDIA: I cannot be specific. I cannot remember
4 whether -- I am sorry to have to say that but I cannot
5 think of any child protection cases that have been given
6 to a social services officer.
7 MR SHELDON: I do not suppose you can but that is not what
8 Mr Meehan appears to have been told. He appears to have
9 been told that some less serious cases, family support,
10 are allocated to inexperienced or unqualified social
11 workers and do you remember that?
12 MR ALMEDIA: No, I do not, I cannot recollect that, no.
13 MR SHELDON: I am going to have to ask you to try and do
14 a bit better than that if possible because what seems to
15 be the case here is the Leader of the Council is being
16 told that within the team in which you are a practice
17 manager, and this is 18 months ago, that cases were
18 being given to unqualified social workers under practice
19 manager supervision. Can you not remember whether that
20 was what you were doing at the time?
21 MR ALMEDIA: I find it confusing. Are we talking about
22 family support cases or child protection cases?
23 MR SHELDON: Family support in the minute in front of you.
24 MR ALMEDIA: Social service officers only do family support
25 cases, that is what their role is.
30
1 MR SHELDON: What Mr Meehan appears to have been told is
2 that in response to a lack of staff a short-term
3 solution had been devised to give some cases to
4 unqualified social workers under practice manager
5 supervision. Is that right or not? Has he been given
6 an accurate picture?
7 MR ALMEDIA: I think there seems to be some
8 misunderstanding.
9 MR SHELDON: What is the misunderstanding?
10 MR ALMEDIA: The misunderstanding, social services officers
11 always carried family support cases and were supervised
12 by practice managers.
13 MR SHELDON: So he is not being given a correct picture. He
14 is being told that is a short-term solution to
15 a particular crisis. Your evidence is that was going on
16 the whole time.
17 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: In paragraph 9, particularly the second half of
19 that paragraph, you talk about family support cases and
20 you say:
21 "For instance, family support cases are fewer in
22 number, they can be very time-consuming because one has
23 to make careful assessments; liaise with many agencies,
24 draw up care plans and monitor them closely ..."
25 It seems from what you are saying that family
31
1 support cases can be quite tricky things to manage. Is
2 that right?
3 MR ALMEDIA: No, I think the confusion, children in need
4 cases --
5 MR SHELDON: I do not want to stop you giving your evidence
6 but I want to understand about family support cases of
7 the type that you are describing in paragraph 9 of your
8 statement. The four lines that I read out. Now, is it
9 right to gather from those four lines that I read out
10 that family support cases can be difficult,
11 time-consuming and sometimes challenging?
12 MR ALMEDIA: Sorry, you are reading from where?
13 MR SHELDON: Paragraph 9 of your statement. Over the page,
14 two lines down.
15 MR ALMEDIA: Okay.
16 MR SHELDON: "For instance, family support cases are fewer
17 in number, they can be very time-consuming ..." and so
18 on.
19 So they can be time-consuming, complex and sometimes
20 difficult, yes?
21 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
22 MR SHELDON: Is it satisfactory in light of that that they
23 be given to unqualified social workers?
24 MR ALMEDIA: I think the reference here is to qualified
25 social workers.
32
1 MR SHELDON: Reference where?
2 MR ALMEDIA: To paragraph 9.
3 MR SHELDON: I thought we had agreed in response to my
4 previous questions that contrary to what Mr Meehan had
5 been told about it being a short-term solution it was
6 a regular occurrence that family support cases were
7 allocated to unqualified social workers. Now, it looks
8 from what you say in your statement as if these could
9 sometimes be quite tricky cases and the suggestion I am
10 putting to you is that in the light of that, they should
11 not be allocated to unqualified social workers, should
12 they?
13 MR ALMEDIA: I think probably, yes, the level of complexity,
14 family cases obviously have degrees of complexity.
15 Those that were bordering on child protection or neglect
16 or what have you would probably have been given to
17 a qualified social worker. Cases which were less of
18 a priority, bed and breakfast cases or what have you,
19 would have been given to social services officers.
20 MR SHELDON: So your recollection is it was only the easy
21 family support cases that were given to --
22 MR ALMEDIA: Social services officers.
23 MR SHELDON: -- unqualified social workers?
24 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
25 MR SHELDON: You are confident that all the more tricky ones
33
1 would go to a qualified social worker?
2 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, I think so.
3 MR SHELDON: We also saw from that extract of the meeting
4 with Mr Meehan that agency staff were being paid up to
5 £40 an hour. Is that your recollection?
6 MR ALMEDIA: No, not really able to say that. I did hear
7 that agency staff were paid more than regular staff.
8 MR SHELDON: Was that a source of some discontent within the
9 office?
10 MR ALMEDIA: I think so, I think it was, yes. It was.
11 MR SHELDON: Did it affect morale?
12 MR ALMEDIA: Yes. Especially qualified workers who --
13 sorry, workers who were on -- permanent workers did feel
14 it unjust.
15 MR SHELDON: What were the obstacles as you saw them to
16 achieving a stable workforce of permanent employees on
17 the team in 1999? Why was that proving so difficult?
18 MR ALMEDIA: I think my recollection is that there were, the
19 commission manager did address the issue and another
20 manager was delegated to carry out a survey and I think
21 pay and conditions was one of the reasons.
22 MR SHELDON: Pay and conditions?
23 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: It would be fair to say, would it not, that the
25 Investigation and Assessment Team in late 1999 was not
34
1 the most pleasant or comfortable working environment
2 that you might imagine? You had restructuring which
3 meant lots of people were worried about their jobs. You
4 had a high turnover of staff, people were overworked,
5 they were feeling stressed, there was a strike; it was
6 uncomfortable, was it not?
7 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, it was stressful, yes.
8 MR SHELDON: We have also heard evidence that relations
9 between employees were strained.
10 MR ALMEDIA: On occasion, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Lisa Arthurworrey drew an analogy, which we are
12 now fairly familiar with but which you may not have
13 heard before, that the team was like a girls school with
14 a headmistress Angella Mairs, some head girls who were
15 her friends and then social workers who were children to
16 be seen and not heard. Does that accord with your
17 recollection?
18 MR ALMEDIA: I would not describe it in those terms, no.
19 MR SHELDON: How about the way in which Marina Hayes
20 describes it in her statements, that there were insiders
21 and outsiders within the team; would you describe it
22 like her?
23 MR ALMEDIA: I would describe -- I think there were social
24 workers who were beginning their managerial careers and
25 were intent on making their mark. That is my
35
1 impression, who did --
2 MR SHELDON: So people were throwing their weight about
3 a bit?
4 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, I think people -- my observation would be
5 that workers who had just become practice managers or
6 senior practitioners were beginning to adopt managerial
7 roles and that caused a certain amount of division
8 between them and the --
9 MR SHELDON: Did you ever get the impression that too little
10 time was spent worrying about cases and too much time
11 worrying about divisions and tensions within the office?
12 MR ALMEDIA: No, I do not think that happened, no.
13 MR SHELDON: So the fact that people were not getting on and
14 the divisions that you talked about did not have any
15 impact upon the service provision that you were
16 achieving?
17 MR ALMEDIA: I think it had an impact on staff morale, yes,
18 to a degree.
19 MR SHELDON: That is not what I asked, service provision was
20 my question.
21 MR ALMEDIA: No, I do not think so.
22 MR SHELDON: So despite the fact that this team was not
23 happy working together, it did not affect the quality of
24 the work it was doing?
25 MR ALMEDIA: It was not a satisfactory state of affairs but
36
1 objectively in terms of team morale it was in some cases
2 there were unhappy incidents. It is always best for
3 a team to pull together in harmony.
4 MR SHELDON: Absolutely, it works best in those
5 circumstances.
6 MR ALMEDIA: It certainly works best in those circumstances.
7 MR SHELDON: When those circumstances do not exist it works
8 worse, one might assume.
9 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: And that was the case in your team?
11 MR ALMEDIA: Well, it is different management strategies.
12 Some management strategies do a -- are more directive,
13 others are more harmonious or cooperative.
14 MR SHELDON: And your management strategy in that team was
15 directive, was it?
16 MR ALMEDIA: I think so, yes.
17 MR SHELDON: Angella Mairs has been described by
18 Valerie Robertson on Tuesday as a bit of a bully. Is
19 that fair?
20 MR ALMEDIA: No, I do not think that is fair.
21 MR SHELDON: Just a directive manager would be the euphemism
22 you would pick?
23 MR ALMEDIA: No, I think Angella had many excellent
24 qualities and she was a very hard working and loyal
25 manager in Haringey Social Services. She did a great
37
1 deal --
2 MR SHELDON: Turning to Carole Baptiste, she was team
3 manager of the team you were in?
4 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: She was responsible for your supervision?
6 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: And given that you were off supervision duties
8 in 1999, responsible for the supervision of the whole
9 team?
10 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: There is no mention of her in your statement.
12 Is that because you were not asked about her or to
13 comment on her?
14 MR ALMEDIA: I was not asked to comment on her.
15 MR SHELDON: What was your view of her competence as
16 a manager?
17 MR ALMEDIA: I thought that Carole was very -- could be
18 a capable manager.
19 MR SHELDON: Was she a capable manager?
20 MR ALMEDIA: I think at the time there were outside factors
21 which did affect to a degree her capability.
22 MR SHELDON: Let us have a look at what you said to
23 Mr Monaghan about that, volume 45A page 150.660. Let us
24 see if what he records here reflects your recollection.
25 Penultimate paragraph. You say two lines up from the
38
1 bottom that:
2 "People felt that Carole Baptiste should be more
3 available for the staff. It was a major issue."
4 Do you remember her lack of availability being
5 a major issue with staff?
6 MR ALMEDIA: I think there was an issue about Carole's
7 availability, yes.
8 MR SHELDON: Was it a major issue with you?
9 MR ALMEDIA: It was to an extent, yes.
10 MR SHELDON: Why did you regard it as a major issue?
11 MR ALMEDIA: In terms of being able to refer to her because
12 you were not always sure when Carole would be available,
13 would be in the office, yes.
14 MR SHELDON: And that is a major problem?
15 MR ALMEDIA: It is a major problem, was a major problem.
16 MR SHELDON: You say in the last paragraph, first line, that
17 you had "no issues over Carole Baptiste's directions
18 when she was supervising me". Does that mean that you
19 thought that when she did supervise, her supervision
20 was good?
21 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, I mean, I felt her supervision could be
22 good, yes.
23 MR SHELDON: Last line of that paragraph:
24 "Carole Baptiste did have issues with me.
25 Everyone's standards can fall below standard." What
39
1 issues did she have with you?
2 MR ALMEDIA: I think probably issues about Duty, about
3 closing cases on Duty or processing cases on Duty.
4 MR SHELDON: What was the issue? Closing them too early,
5 too late?
6 MR ALMEDIA: I think not meeting time scales primarily.
7 MR SHELDON: She was putting pressure on you to close cases
8 quicker than you were managing to close them, was she?
9 MR ALMEDIA: On particular, yes, to complete the initial
10 assessments within the timeframe and so on.
11 MR SHELDON: So pass the cases off the Duty Team as quickly
12 as you could?
13 MR ALMEDIA: No, in terms of managing Duty, to make sure
14 that I effectively saw that social workers completed
15 a task or they completed the appropriate forms and so on
16 and so forth.
17 MR SHELDON: Put simply, was she putting pressure on you to
18 put pressure on your staff in the Duty Team to work
19 faster?
20 MR ALMEDIA: I would not put it that way.
21 MR SHELDON: How would you put it?
22 MR ALMEDIA: I would say that Carole would expect that we
23 would conduct our investigations within required time
24 or -- time scales, and that the work that came up for
25 allocation work was properly completed and signed and so
40
1 on.
2 MR SHELDON: She was just asking you to do the work that was
3 required within the required timescale?
4 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, and within terms and remit of my
5 responsibilities.
6 MR SHELDON: And you were failing to do that?
7 MR ALMEDIA: On occasion. My recollection is that over the
8 course of many weeks, many months, yes I probably did
9 fail to meet it on occasion.
10 MR SHELDON: Because of volume of work?
11 MR ALMEDIA: Major primarily, but there may well have been
12 oversights on my part, I did not pick something up or
13 something like that.
14 MR SHELDON: Over the page, 661, second paragraph, you say
15 that you were:
16 "... not aware that Carole Baptiste used supervision
17 sessions to discuss religious issues and none of the
18 other social workers told me about this."
19 Is that right, you were not aware that she let
20 religion intrude into her professional life?
21 MR ALMEDIA: I was not aware.
22 MR SHELDON: No one ever told you she was doing that in
23 supervisions? Did she ever do it in supervisions with
24 you?
25 MR ALMEDIA: No.
41
1 MR SHELDON: You say you were surprised how her mental state
2 has been portrayed in the press. How has her mental
3 state been portrayed in the press?
4 MR ALMEDIA: I think on the occasion I was describing
5 probably the Old Bailey trial, where there were
6 allegations that she had had a breakdown or something
7 I think, or near breakdown.
8 MR SHELDON: You thought that her mental state was entirely
9 stable, did you, throughout 1999?
10 MR ALMEDIA: I thought so, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Did you ever ask her where she was on all these
12 occasions when she was supposed to be around but she was
13 not?
14 MR ALMEDIA: Carole, yes I did ask, and Carole obviously was
15 accountable to Angella but I knew she had recently had
16 a baby so I think it was probably issues of childcare
17 issues and issues of her own illness, sickness so on.
18 MR SHELDON: We have been given the team movement book for
19 the relevant period which seems to suggest that there
20 were days, sometimes more than two days in a row, where
21 there is nothing written down in respect of
22 Carole Baptiste. Does not say she is in or where she
23 is. Is that your recollection, she could sometimes be
24 gone for days on end or was it just nipping out for an
25 hour or two to go to the gym as somebody else has
42
1 suggested?
2 MR ALMEDIA: I am not sure whether she filled out -- I was
3 not aware of her being absent for days on end.
4 Sometimes I feel that she did not write her movements in
5 the book.
6 MR SHELDON: So what was the extent of her unavailability
7 then as you recall it?
8 MR ALMEDIA: It is difficult again to estimate it.
9 Obviously it has been a long time but she was working
10 part-time at one stage and then became full-time.
11 MR SHELDON: What stage was she working part-time?
12 MR ALMEDIA: I think was it 1998? I think it was something
13 like that.
14 MR SHELDON: In 1998?
15 MR ALMEDIA: Yes. I am not sure, I cannot remember.
16 MR SHELDON: Did you ever discuss this lack of availability
17 with her? Did you ever say --
18 MR ALMEDIA: I think it was taken up in a meeting in July.
19 MR SHELDON: You discussed it with her then, did you?
20 MR ALMEDIA: It was discussed I think with Angella, Carole
21 and Dave, the commission manager.
22 MR SHELDON: After July -- because there is no indication,
23 unless you are saying otherwise, that the situation got
24 markedly better after July -- after July did you go in
25 and see her and say, "Look, you have got to start
43
1 showing up more"?
2 MR ALMEDIA: I think after July -- I did not approach her
3 directly but I mean the commission manager was aware and
4 Angella was aware that there had been problems.
5 MR SHELDON: How were they being made aware? Were you
6 telling them?
7 MR ALMEDIA: No, I am saying that her movements after July,
8 I do not have a detailed record. I could go by
9 impressions and even then I would not be able to say
10 precisely how.
11 MR SHELDON: You are the senior practitioner on the team.
12 You know that you have at least two very junior social
13 work staff who need a lot of guidance and also agency
14 staff coming in and out. You know you have no time to
15 do any supervision because you are on an NVQ. This must
16 have been a major issue for you, something of serious
17 concern.
18 MR ALMEDIA: It was serious concern but it was at that time
19 that the team managers were going for their jobs and
20 they all had interviews, they all had -- I mean, I think
21 I said earlier the practice managers did send a memo or
22 did make some representation to higher management about
23 it.
24 MR SHELDON: You are a practice manager, are you not?
25 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
44
1 MR SHELDON: Was your name on that memo?
2 MR ALMEDIA: I think it may have been. I cannot recollect
3 specifically. I think I was certainly aware of some --
4 you know, some correspondence.
5 MR SHELDON: Was it your view that given the preoccupation
6 of managers such as Angella Mairs and David Duncan, that
7 even if you had gone to them about Carole Baptiste's
8 lack of availability it is unlikely that they would have
9 been particularly receptive?
10 MR ALMEDIA: It has just occurred to me, I think we met with
11 Carol Wilson but I cannot remember specific dates.
12 MR SHELDON: To talk about Carole Baptiste's lack of
13 availability?
14 MR ALMEDIA: No, about the general destabilisation that the
15 process of restructuring was having on --
16 MR SHELDON: Was that what the memo was about as well,
17 Carole Baptiste's --
18 MR ALMEDIA: As I say, about the destabilising of the
19 department.
20 MR SHELDON: Before we come on to your brief involvement in
21 Victoria's case I want to ask you about
22 Lisa Arthurworrey. Did you see enough of her work to be
23 able to comment on her competence as a social worker?
24 MR ALMEDIA: I saw Lisa's work on Duty, yes, and I felt when
25 she was on Duty she performed competently, yes.
45
1 MR SHELDON: How did her practice as far as you could
2 determine it compare with other social workers on Duty?
3 Average, below average, above average?
4 MR ALMEDIA: I would have said above average, I was quite
5 impressed by Lisa's work.
6 MR SHELDON: Turning to your involvement with Victoria's
7 case, you made some calls in relation to her case, did
8 you not?.
9 MR ALMEDIA: I did, yes.
10 MR SHELDON: I want to understand at the outset what the
11 purpose of these calls was. Was it to get health and
12 safety advice for Lisa Arthurworrey?
13 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: About precautions she should take in making
15 a home visit? Or was it to get a hygiene assessment
16 done of Victoria's house to action Victoria's case?
17 MR ALMEDIA: I think it was to get advice basically, to get
18 advice.
19 MR SHELDON: For Lisa?
20 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: So you were not attempting to progress
22 Victoria's case, you were just getting some advice for
23 a colleague?
24 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, basically about scabies.
25 MR SHELDON: Because if you have still got Mr Monaghan's
46
1 report, page 660, that seems to be what you are saying
2 there because you say in the first two lines:
3 "My involvement in this case was limited to me
4 making a number of telephone calls to the Family Centre,
5 NSPCC and Environmental Health regarding the scabies
6 issue. I made these calls to establish what
7 practicalities needed to be taken on Lisa Arthurworrey's
8 behalf after she discussed the issue with me."
9 Is that how you remember it?
10 MR ALMEDIA: That is how I remember it, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: So she came to you, said "I have got to go to
12 a house in relation to a child who has got scabies.
13 I have received advice that that could be dangerous and
14 I want your advice on that." Is that what happened?
15 MR ALMEDIA: Can you repeat the question?
16 MR SHELDON: I will try and deal with it better this time.
17 She came to you, did she, said, "I have to go and do
18 a home visit to a house about which there are concerns
19 with scabies. I want some advice on how I should handle
20 this". Is that how it went?
21 MR ALMEDIA: I think that was basically, yes, the context,
22 yes.
23 MR SHELDON: Could you have volume 7 page 5 please. Now,
24 this is a document headed "For service provided by the
25 Tottenham Child and Family Centre", which seems to
47
1 record a referral made by someone on the Duty, referring
2 Victoria -- she is called Anna there -- referring
3 Victoria's case to the centre in order for them to
4 become involved in the case. Now, did you make that
5 referral?
6 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, I made the referral.
7 MR SHELDON: That seems to suggest that you not just making
8 calls to get advice about precautions in relation to
9 scabies, you are actually making calls to refer the case
10 on to people so that they can take action on it.
11 MR ALMEDIA: I do not think the two things necessarily are
12 contradictory. I did refer the case, I referred -- the
13 Family Centre does a lot of work with families around
14 hygiene which I knew. This particular case, I did try
15 to find out as much as I could about the issue of -- as
16 I said, I requested advice, poor hygiene, and get some
17 information about scabies and also refer it to the --
18 MR SHELDON: I see, so there were two purposes to the calls
19 you made. 1, get some advice on scabies?
20 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: 2, refer the case on in order for some action
22 to be taken on Victoria's behalf?
23 MR ALMEDIA: I think also, yes, partly to get some -- so
24 that if I -- yes, to refer the case to the Family Centre
25 for possible -- to contact Lisa to possibly to work with
48
1 her about this and to give her advice about how to work
2 around the issue of hygiene and also possibly also to
3 get any advice about scabies.
4 MR SHELDON: Let us look at what you say about this in your
5 statement, paragraph 15. Paragraph 15 is your
6 transcription of a note in the file in volume 6,
7 page 509, which I cannot read so I will use your
8 transcription. You say:
9 "Health visitor says that they would not be involved
10 in hygiene assessment of this nature. It would be the
11 school nurse."
12 So you phone the health visitor, presumably to ask
13 for them to do a hygiene assessment of Victoria's house,
14 yes?
15 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, in terms of treatment of -- yes, if there
16 were issues, yes.
17 MR SHELDON: Not to get scabies protection advice for
18 Lisa Arthurworrey, to get the health visitors to do an
19 assessment of the house?
20 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, I think --
21 MR SHELDON: Yes?
22 MR ALMEDIA: Yes. The problem would be that they would have
23 specialist knowledge about the issue of hygiene and
24 about such issues. They would probably have been able
25 to, once the referral had been taken they would have
49
1 probably been able to contact Lisa and give us some
2 specialist advice.
3 MR SHELDON: We have to be clear about this at the outset
4 because otherwise what follows will make no sense.
5 MR ALMEDIA: Okay.
6 MR SHELDON: I suggested to you that you made phone calls
7 for two reasons. Firstly, to get some advice for
8 Lisa Arthurworrey about what precautions she should take
9 when visiting. Right?
10 MR ALMEDIA: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Secondly, to get somebody to do an assessment
12 of Victoria's house to find out what Victoria's hygiene
13 needs were?
14 MR ALMEDIA: No, I am sorry, I mean, my understanding is
15 that the -- these were specialist agencies that had --
16 obviously Environmental Health which deals very much
17 with elderly people in the community who live in squalid
18 living conditions, so they have specialist -- they would
19 have been able to assist Lisa, given her some advice.
20 MR SHELDON: We have looked at the Tottenham Child and
21 Family Centre referral. It does not say "Duty Manager
22 called asking for advice on protection against scabies".
23 It said "Duty Manager phoned asking for us to do a visit
24 to the house to undertake an assessment".
25 MR ALMEDIA: But -- yes -- but --
50
1 MR SHELDON: I am not saying the two are mutually exclusive.
2 I am not saying you cannot phone Environmental Health
3 about one thing and Tottenham Family Centre about
4 something else. I want to know what you thought you
5 were doing.
6 MR ALMEDIA: By making a referral my idea is that they would
7 be able to work with Lisa around these issues. I mean,
8 the referral was, I mean, presumably family --
9 MR SHELDON: What issues?
10 MR ALMEDIA: About the allegations of poor hygiene and so
11 on.
12 MR SHELDON: Let us try and understand what you knew about
13 the case at this point.
14 MR ALMEDIA: Okay.
15 MR SHELDON: Had you read the file?
16 MR ALMEDIA: Which file?
17 MR SHELDON: The case file, the social work case file.
18 MR ALMEDIA: Yes, I did. I looked at it, yes.
19 MR SHELDON: You looked through it?
20 MR ALMEDIA: When I made my statement, yes.
21 MR SHELDON: No, at the time you were making these calls.
22 MR ALMEDIA: No, not at the time I do not think I did, no.
23 MR SHELDON: Did you speak to Lisa Arthurworrey about what
24 needed to be done on the case?
25 MR ALMEDIA: Lisa approached me -- I was Duty Manager -- and
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