Archived Transcript for 26 November 2001: Pages 51 to 100

51



1 by the owner of the property.

2 MS ALEXANDROU: The Housing Register is for permanent

3 housing. We do have a separate Homeless Section.

4 Clients come to us when it is not a dire emergency.

5 When it is an emergency they tend to go to the Homeless

6 Section which is a separate department.

7 MS GIBSON: Just on the basis of this form, again

8 remembering that we are dealing with someone who has

9 just come from France in March of the same year, what is

10 done to ensure that that person understands which arm of

11 the Housing Department they should be going to?

12 MS ALEXANDROU: In this particular case a home visit was

13 arranged. She did have enough points for us to assist

14 her to the next stage which would involve a home visit,

15 so any further information would have been found out at

16 the home visit stage.

17 MS GIBSON: So you would expect part of the home visit to

18 consist, as well as getting information from the client

19 about their circumstances and whether or not they are

20 intentionally homeless, you would expect it to include

21 information or part of that to be the giving of advice

22 to that person as to what their remedies are?

23 MS ALEXANDROU: If the client had stated at the time that

24 they are being asked to leave, you know, within a few

25 weeks then the home visitor would have advised them to

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1 go to the Homeless Section.

2 MS GIBSON: Is that something that the home visitor would

3 specifically ask or would they just wait to see if that

4 information was volunteered by the person they were

5 visiting?

6 MS ALEXANDROU: I am not sure.

7 MS GIBSON: At page 27, again there is no need to go to it,

8 but the box where the name and address of local GP

9 should be entered has been left with a "not applicable"

10 marking in it. What would the consequence of that be?

11 MS ALEXANDROU: We have a lot of clients who do not fill in

12 the GP's address. It is not something that our team

13 particularly deals with.

14 MS GIBSON: And you do not liaise at all with local health

15 providers in respect of that sort of information?

16 MS ALEXANDROU: No, we just deal with the housing part. We

17 do not deal with medical special needs.

18 MS GIBSON: What about if it comes to the attention of the

19 Housing Department that a child is not in school as part

20 of the information that you receive in the course of

21 your enquiries; what is done to relay that information

22 to the relevant agencies?

23 MS ALEXANDROU: Are we talking about now or before?

24 MS GIBSON: If you could help with both, then in 1999 was

25 there any procedure in place to relay that information

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1 on to social services or to the Education Department?

2 MS ALEXANDROU: At the time I do not recall any procedures

3 being in effect.

4 MS GIBSON: Can you help us with what is in place now?

5 MS ALEXANDROU: Even now there is no such procedures that

6 I am aware of apart from just informing a line manager.

7 MS GIBSON: On the form there is also mention of the fact

8 that the accommodation is too small. What is done to

9 satisfy your Housing Authority of whether or not this is

10 an instance where there may be statutory overcrowding?

11 MS ALEXANDROU: In this instance there would have been an

12 assessment of the case for the points, and again,

13 because of the high points, being passed over for a home

14 visit, so further information would be established at

15 the home visit stage.

16 MS GIBSON: In terms of the decision for there to be a home

17 visit in this case, you say in your statement that the

18 reason was to investigate whether or not Kouao actually

19 did reside at that address. Why in this particular case

20 was there a suspicion of that nature that led to a home

21 visit?

22 MS ALEXANDROU: It is not just in this particular case, it

23 is with all cases that have enough points for the case

24 to proceed for a home visit. We ask the home visitor to

25 always confirm the client lives there, as we have had

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1 cases where clients are not resident there. So any

2 cases that have enough points for a home visit we do ask

3 them to confirm that this person is actually resident

4 there.

5 MS GIBSON: So is it routine that when someone gets more

6 than the 175 points and they are eligible to go on the

7 list, that a home visit will automatically follow?

8 MS ALEXANDROU: Yes, that is right.

9 MS GIBSON: We see at page 32 of the bundle the letter --

10 and again I will ask if you can be helped with that --

11 the letter that was sent to your manager, Mr Kakouratos,

12 from the social worker Lisa Arthurworrey, who mentions

13 that there is a child protection investigation and that

14 she needs to clarify the housing situation to enable her

15 to finalise the care plan and it was as a result of this

16 letter that the case file was passed to you. Do you

17 recall having any discussion with your manager about

18 this letter and about the involvement of social

19 services?

20 MS ALEXANDROU: No, I do not recall.

21 MS GIBSON: We see the letter was on the housing file.

22 Would you as a matter of course have read that letter?

23 MS ALEXANDROU: I cannot recall whether I did or did not

24 read the letter at the time. The file, I just made sure

25 the file was made up and passed over for a home visit.

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1 MS GIBSON: I just find it surprising that the reason for

2 the urgency here was the social worker wanted to get on

3 to finalise the care plan. It seems surprising if this

4 file was referred on to you that you were not aware of

5 the reason why it was being fast tracked.

6 MS ALEXANDROU: We would not get involved at this stage.

7 The file was passed to me to pass over for a home visit

8 and that is what I was instructed to do and that is what

9 I did at the time. I would not get involved at this

10 particular stage with the case as it was being passed

11 over to the home visitor for a visit.

12 MS GIBSON: We know in this case that the application came

13 in on the 19th July and then it was not until some

14 10 weeks later that the whole application was processed.

15 The home visit did not take place until 16th September.

16 MS ALEXANDROU: I was not involved in the home visit.

17 MS GIBSON: We know this was an urgent application and

18 overall, after taking in the home visit, it took some

19 10 weeks to process. Would that be standard for an

20 urgent application at this time?

21 MS ALEXANDROU: I do not think at the time we received the

22 form it was amongst other forms, I think it was only

23 made to my manager's attention through the memo that

24 this was an urgent case. The file did not, as far as

25 I am aware, did not come with the letter from the social

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1 worker attached to it. It was separate, as far as I am

2 aware.

3 MS GIBSON: But it seems strange, given that this file has

4 been fast tracked, and we know the average time I think

5 you set out in your statement is eight weeks to deal

6 with an application, that is certainly the information

7 that Lisa Arthurworrey was told, and as a result of

8 being told that information she writes to your manager

9 to get this case looked at more urgently but ultimately

10 it takes longer than eight weeks. Can you explain why

11 that might be?

12 MS ALEXANDROU: At the time like I said earlier there was

13 a backlog of forms.

14 MS GIBSON: I thought you said that the backlog at this time

15 was not -- you do not recall there being a particular

16 backlog at this time.

17 MS ALEXANDROU: I do not recall there being a particular bad

18 backlog. 10 weeks is not a big delay in a form being

19 processed.

20 MS GIBSON: If 10 weeks is not a bad delay, I mean how long

21 is the usual backlog?

22 MS ALEXANDROU: For when are you referring to?

23 MS GIBSON: Perhaps if we can turn to 1999, the period we

24 are dealing with.

25 MS ALEXANDROU: I cannot recall what the backlog was like at

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1 the time but it was not a very bad backlog. We get over

2 100 forms a week.

3 MS GIBSON: What would be the worst sort of backlog that you

4 recall dealing with while you have been at Haringey

5 Housing? I am just trying to compare how this relates

6 to the average.

7 MS ALEXANDROU: We have had backlogs leading to three/four

8 months delay.

9 MS GIBSON: Perhaps you can assist with what the current

10 position is.

11 MS ALEXANDROU: That is the current position.

12 MS GIBSON: As a result of your allocation of points you

13 send out a letter which is at page 6 in the bundle dated

14 1st September, which explains to the client that they

15 have been awarded a certain number of points, that the

16 minimum number is 175 points, and it explains that they

17 will be put on the list. There is no clear information

18 in that as to what the next step will be or how long

19 they will have to wait or any indication of how long

20 they might need to wait before they are rehoused.

21 Do you accept that that letter is quite complex and

22 quite difficult for someone to understand who might have

23 problems with written English?

24 MS ALEXANDROU: Well, this is a standard letter we send out

25 to all clients and in the letter it states what their

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1 points are and the minimum points we are dealing with.

2 At this stage rehousing is not guaranteed, that is why

3 rehousing level is not referred to in this letter.

4 MS GIBSON: But it is not very clear, is it, to the

5 applicant what is going to happen next and what their

6 expectations if any should be?

7 MS ALEXANDROU: The purpose of this letter is to inform them

8 of their points and the procedure.

9 MS GIBSON: Is anything done in cases where English is not

10 the first language to make sure that the applicant

11 understands what that means and what the implications

12 are for them and what they should do next?

13 MS ALEXANDROU: The client would normally inform us if there

14 is any language difficulties, in which case we would

15 arrange for a letter to be translated for them.

16 MS GIBSON: The position is though that a lot of reliance is

17 placed on the client informing you of the position but

18 it may be that some of the clients you deal with are

19 less enabled to do that. It may be that typically

20 clients who want to be rehoused will come to your

21 offices very frequently to insist on the position and to

22 make you aware of their situation, but there may be

23 clients who for whatever reasons do not fall into that

24 particular camp, and what is done to ensure that

25 everyone that you deal with is fully informed of their

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1 position and their rights?

2 MS ALEXANDROU: Those clients who have enough points, their

3 case will proceed to the next stage and further

4 information will be found out at the home visit stage.

5 Those clients who have got below a certain number of

6 points we would not be able to proceed any further with

7 their cases, and that is how we work.

8 MS GIBSON: We do not see any letter going from the Housing

9 Department to social services to inform them of what has

10 been decided in relation to housing points. Can you

11 explain why that is?

12 MS ALEXANDROU: No, I am afraid I cannot. I do not

13 recall -- I would not have known at the time. I am just

14 guessing really. I do not really want to guess what

15 I may or may not have done at the time. It is very

16 difficult.

17 MS GIBSON: So your evidence is essentially that you cannot

18 remember the letter to social services, whether that was

19 passed on to you. If it had been passed on to you,

20 under your understanding of procedures in the Housing

21 Department, what would you have done to inform social

22 services of the housing position?

23 MS ALEXANDROU: Is this to do with this particular case?

24 MS GIBSON: Yes.

25 MS ALEXANDROU: Or in general? There were no set procedures

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1 at the time of what our contact should have been with

2 social services. I never had dealings with any social

3 services before.

4 MS GIBSON: Can I ask you -- probably a lot follows from

5 your previous answer -- was Karen McGregor who did the

6 home visit made aware of child protection issues before

7 she made that visit?

8 MS ALEXANDROU: Usually the client, the home visitor will

9 read, I would have thought would read through the file

10 before the home visit. There is nothing I recall saying

11 to Karen before the home visit.

12 MS GIBSON: So are you fairly clear that you did not say

13 anything to Karen McGregor?

14 MS ALEXANDROU: I do not recall any such conversation.

15 I cannot recall at the time.

16 MS GIBSON: And would it be the usual practice for the home

17 visitor to read the file from cover to cover before

18 going out on home visit and that file would have

19 included the letter about the referral to social

20 services?

21 MS ALEXANDROU: That is -- I am not a home visitor so I am

22 not exactly sure what they do before the home visit.

23 MS GIBSON: I just ask because if you had been aware that

24 this was a case where there were child protection

25 concerns, would you not have felt it important to relay

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1 that to the person doing the home visit?

2 MS ALEXANDROU: I cannot recall at the time what discussions

3 I had with Karen to do with this case.

4 MS GIBSON: Going on from this particular instance and to

5 your general practice, if you had known about that

6 letter from Social Services, what would you have done to

7 make Karen McGregor aware of the position or would you

8 not regard that as being something of any importance to

9 Housing?

10 MS ALEXANDROU: Now a note would be made on the front cover

11 sheet to notify them that there is a social services

12 issue or made sure verbal conversation was -- or the

13 visiting officer was told verbally.

14 MS GIBSON: You say "now". Is that a procedure that has

15 been brought into place since these events?

16 MS ALEXANDROU: I do not necessarily think it is

17 a procedure, it is just with experience.

18 MS GIBSON: And can you help with about when that practice

19 started to come into place?

20 MS ALEXANDROU: No, I am sorry.

21 MS GIBSON: But after 1999?

22 MS ALEXANDROU: I think it is just through experience you

23 know, through time, through a fairly new section, from

24 experience and time, more information, we have sort of

25 known more what to do with particular cases.

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1 MS GIBSON: Would you now, if you were aware of child

2 protection concerns, liaise with social services to find

3 out what those concerns were, and if there were any

4 implications in relation to the welfare of the child,

5 that might have a bearing on how many points the family

6 might receive?

7 MS ALEXANDROU: Any further points to do with social

8 services or to do with the child will probably be

9 referred to the Special Needs Section, who may award

10 something called welfare points. So really we may have

11 directed them to speak to the Special Needs Section

12 about such a matter. The only contact we would have had

13 with social services would be to inform them of our

14 progress for the housing part. We would not get

15 involved with the issues.

16 MS GIBSON: It may be in a case, I mean not in every case

17 but in some cases where there are child protection

18 concerns, one problem might be that there is one member

19 of the household who might be violent. Is anything done

20 to ensure that that sort of information is communicated

21 to housing officers going out on visits?

22 MS ALEXANDROU: If a member of the household is violent

23 a note is made on the file and a discussion with the

24 home visitor to advise them that more than one person

25 should attend the home visit or, depending on the

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1 seriousness, maybe not at all, not do the home visit at

2 all.

3 MS GIBSON: But if you do not liaise with social services

4 how do you obtain that information?

5 MS ALEXANDROU: Sorry, you have just confused me. You were

6 asking me if there is a member of the household is

7 violent what would we do.

8 MS GIBSON: For example, it might be that social services is

9 the only agency that has that information.

10 MS ALEXANDROU: It depends where is the information coming

11 from social services.

12 MS GIBSON: If you read on the file that there are child

13 protection concerns, one issue may be, and I am not

14 saying in every case, but it might be a feature of the

15 case that there is one member of the household who is

16 violent and I just wondered if there was anything in

17 place to ensure that you were --

18 MS ALEXANDROU: We would contact social services to find out

19 the seriousness of it but again a home visitor would not

20 do a visit on their own to a household where there could

21 be potentially a violent person there, but we would

22 contact social services to find out how serious it is.

23 MS GIBSON: Turning now to your response to the interview

24 from Karen McGregor. You felt as a result of that

25 interview that Kouao was probably intentionally

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1 homeless. What would be the implications of that in

2 terms of your future duties to provide her with housing,

3 were she to become homeless?

4 MS ALEXANDROU: Can you repeat the question?

5 MS GIBSON: What would the implication be of her intentional

6 homelessness if she were subsequently to become

7 homeless, in this case if she had been put out of the

8 flat at 267 Somerset Gardens?

9 MS ALEXANDROU: If she had been thrown out of her present

10 accommodation we would not have been able to assist her

11 any further. It would have had to be, we would have

12 advised her to contact the Homeless Section.

13 MS GIBSON: It is mentioned in the home visit, the record of

14 the home visit at volume 6 page 14, that the child,

15 Kouao, Carl and his partner all sleep on the floor in

16 one room apparently. That is potentially relevant

17 information for social services but it does not seem

18 that that information was passed on to them. Again,

19 would it not be usual practice for that sort of

20 information to be relayed to social services?

21 MS ALEXANDROU: We have a lot of families who are in

22 overcrowded situations. We would not necessarily refer

23 them all back to social services unless social services

24 were involved, in this kind of instance probably

25 advising the client to go to the Homeless Section for

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1 emergency housing.

2 MS GIBSON: But we know here that Kouao was not advised to

3 go to the Homelessness Section. Can you explain why

4 that was?

5 MS ALEXANDROU: I think the issue at the time was that she

6 had left council accommodation and that had to be

7 investigated.

8 MS GIBSON: Would anything be done in a case such as this

9 where you have an applicant coming from France saying

10 that she was in council housing in France to check with

11 the housing authorities in France as to what the

12 position was?

13 MS ALEXANDROU: At the time we looked at the information

14 provided by the client and asked for further information

15 from the client so we can investigate this further.

16 MS GIBSON: And what further investigations were carried

17 out?

18 MS ALEXANDROU: There were not any further investigations

19 because the client did not contact us.

20 MS GIBSON: Again, in this system a lot seems to rely on the

21 proactivity of the client, and I accept that in most

22 cases involving housing the client is probably going to

23 be nagging you to do something and attending the office

24 on a regular basis, but there are going to be cases of

25 people who are perhaps very proud, do not want to

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1 discuss their personal circumstances, who rely on you to

2 go to them to assist, and what is done to make sure that

3 you have all the right information?

4 MS ALEXANDROU: Sorry, can you repeat the question?

5 MS GIBSON: When you get a situation as here where the

6 client did not respond to your letter, what you call the

7 mitigating circumstances letter, which was sent out

8 following the home visit when the decision was taken

9 that Kouao was probably intentionally homeless, is

10 anything done when a client does not reply to follow up

11 the situation?

12 MS ALEXANDROU: No, because it is up to the client to get

13 back to us. It is absolutely impossible to chase up

14 information from each and every client who does not

15 respond to us. We send a letter out, it is up to them

16 to respond to it. If they do not then we do not chase

17 them about that. We deal with so many cases.

18 MS GIBSON: That is still the position?

19 MS ALEXANDROU: It is up to the client to respond to us.

20 MS GIBSON: But here you know that you were aware that you

21 were dealing with a situation with someone who had said

22 on their application form that they had some

23 difficulties with written English. How do you as

24 a housing authority satisfy yourself that the person,

25 that the applicant understands your mitigating

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1 circumstances letter and understands what they should do

2 next?

3 MS ALEXANDROU: If there were any language barriers the home

4 visitor would have stated it in her report.

5 MS GIBSON: The home visitor is dealing with an oral

6 interview with the client and you have a client who said

7 she has trouble with written communication. What is

8 done to take account of that?

9 MS ALEXANDROU: I think any language barriers, written or

10 oral, would have been mentioned in the home visit report

11 if that was a problem.

12 MS GIBSON: I still do not understand because on the

13 application form at the very beginning that issue has

14 been clarified by the client, that she has some problems

15 with written English.

16 MS ALEXANDROU: It is up to the client to -- sorry, can you

17 repeat the question?

18 MS GIBSON: What I am trying to establish is if there is any

19 procedure in place to deal with a situation where

20 a client has a problem with written English -- we have

21 already established that you knew that in this case,

22 because it says so on the application form -- for

23 ensuring that that client has not only received your

24 mitigating circumstances letter but also understands it.

25 MS ALEXANDROU: We would expect the client to phone us if

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1 she did not understand or come into the office if she

2 did not understand the letter. As the home visit report

3 had been conducted okay and the form had been completed,

4 if there was any further language barriers we would have

5 thought the client would have been in contact with us.

6 MS GIBSON: Again, we know that this is a case where social

7 services were involved and indeed social services had

8 contacted you in relation to the housing application.

9 There was no communication from your department to

10 social services to inform them of the outcome of the

11 home visit. Would that not be routine practice in your

12 office, where social services are involved, for you to

13 inform them of what is going on in a client's housing

14 situation?

15 MS ALEXANDROU: At the time I had no prior dealings with

16 social services. I may not have known what to do with

17 this information at the time.

18 MS GIBSON: And what would the position be now in relation

19 to a referral where you knew that there were, where you

20 knew social services were involved?

21 MS ALEXANDROU: After this case now we are very careful to

22 have a lot of contact with social services to inform

23 them of every decision we make and any progress with our

24 cases.

25 MS GIBSON: And is there a new written protocol in place in

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1 terms of liaison between social services and --

2 MS ALEXANDROU: Again I say through experience and time.

3 MS GIBSON: Can you explain the delay between the home visit

4 on 16th September and the letter going out, the

5 mitigating circumstances letter going out on

6 30th September?

7 MS ALEXANDROU: I cannot recall why there may have been

8 delay at the time.

9 MS GIBSON: Would that be a fairly typical time period?

10 MS ALEXANDROU: I cannot recall our time scales at the time.

11 MS GIBSON: And then on 30th November the case is referred

12 on your computer records, it is referred to as being

13 "deferred". What does that mean?

14 MS ALEXANDROU: It means the case has been put on hold.

15 MS GIBSON: And how long would a case remain deferred until

16 it would be closed?

17 MS ALEXANDROU: The case can be, can remain deferred

18 indefinitely. It does not necessarily mean it will be

19 closed.

20 MS GIBSON: Thank you very much.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Ms Gibson. Miss Lawson.

22 MISS LAWSON: Ms Alexandrou, can I just ask you about one or

23 two things that arise out of what you have been asked?

24 You were asked about the delay in processing this

25 application and a period of 10 weeks was put to you

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1 within which it was dealt. I would just like to ask you

2 about the period when you were involved. We know that

3 the application came into Housing on 19th July, but is

4 it right that it was not until the memo from

5 Lisa Arthurworrey on 26th August that you became

6 involved in dealing with her case?

7 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

8 MISS LAWSON: And we know that you had following that memo

9 assessed and processed the form by 1st September when

10 your letter was sent out.

11 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

12 MISS LAWSON: And you arranged for the home visit which took

13 place we know on 16th September.

14 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

15 MISS LAWSON: And following that you sent out the mitigating

16 circumstances letter on 30th September that we have been

17 hearing about.

18 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

19 MISS LAWSON: So that the period of your involvement and, if

20 one might so call it, the active processing of this

21 application was probably just over four weeks?

22 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

23 MISS LAWSON: You were asked a number of questions about the

24 interpretation and whether or not you chased up housing

25 clients. Do you need a break?

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1 MS ALEXANDROU: I am okay.

2 MISS LAWSON: I think we know from other sources that

3 Haringey has the largest number of homeless families in

4 London. Are you aware of that?

5 MS ALEXANDROU: Yes, I am.

6 MISS LAWSON: It also has the highest number of asylum

7 seekers, also many of whom require housing.

8 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

9 MISS LAWSON: It is also a multicultural area, is it not?

10 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

11 MISS LAWSON: If I suggested to you that already 160

12 different languages are spoken in Haringey, would that

13 be a figure that you could agree with?

14 MS ALEXANDROU: Probably.

15 MISS LAWSON: As far as the Housing office is concerned,

16 does it meet that in part by having its housing policies

17 and forms in a number of different languages?

18 MS ALEXANDROU: They are available, yes.

19 MISS LAWSON: Because I think it is generally accepted that

20 Haringey is an authority which is very strongly

21 committed to ensuring equal opportunities for those who

22 use its services and tries to make sure that that

23 happens.

24 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

25 MISS LAWSON: Now, you were asked about what assistance if

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1 any Miss Kouao might have had with filling in the form

2 both inside the office and out and you very fairly said

3 that you do not necessarily know whether she had any

4 friend to help her in filling in the forms or in

5 understanding it afterwards. The Inquiry however knows

6 that she did. So I am not sure that it is appropriate

7 to take this witness to the statement but

8 Julian Kimbidima at W7/113.505 sets out in terms the

9 advice and assistance he was giving Miss Kouao with that

10 application.

11 I would also like you to be shown bundle 4 page 72.

12 Now, can I just explain to you what that letter is said

13 to be. That is said to be a draft of a letter written

14 by Mr Manning allegedly in support of a housing

15 application being made by her and you see it is dated

16 29th July. What is not clear at the moment is whether

17 that document was ever passed or seen by anyone in

18 Housing and I would like you just to tell us whether you

19 have ever seen that before.

20 MS ALEXANDROU: No, I have not.

21 MISS LAWSON: Keeping that document open, I wonder whether

22 you would mind having another look at the housing

23 application form which is the document in bundle 6 which

24 starts at page 16. Just comparing the handwriting on

25 the two documents, Miss Alexandrou, it may be that that

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1 also indicates another source of friendship which

2 Miss Kouao had in filling in the forms.

3 MS ALEXANDROU: (Nods).

4 MISS LAWSON: Now, you were asked about relationships and

5 the passing on information to social services. You were

6 asked particularly about the information that you

7 obtained from the home visit about whether or not

8 Victoria was going to school and you said that would not

9 normally be something that you would pass on because it

10 was not uncommon, and that is the position, is it?

11 MS ALEXANDROU: Sorry?

12 MISS LAWSON: You have already told us that you would not

13 normally necessarily pass that information on, that many

14 of the clients of housing services may well have

15 children who are not going to school.

16 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

17 MISS LAWSON: And I would just like to ask you about how you

18 look at the information which you receive. You are

19 obviously looking at it from the housing point of view,

20 are you not?

21 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

22 MISS LAWSON: Were you assessing this housing visit in terms

23 of its impact on the housing situation of Miss Kouao and

24 Victoria?

25 MS ALEXANDROU: I was assessing the housing part of it, yes.

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1 MISS LAWSON: You were not looking at it to see whether

2 there were other things connected with the child?

3 MS ALEXANDROU: No.

4 MISS LAWSON: Do you remember whether you even picked up on

5 the fact that she was not going to school at the time?

6 MS ALEXANDROU: No, I do not.

7 MISS LAWSON: Many of those who are clients of Housing are

8 obviously those who are in vulnerable groups of one sort

9 or another, notably the mentally ill, sometimes the

10 elderly, people with disabilities, that sort of thing.

11 Now, do you know whether there are arrangements, not

12 necessarily in writing, for contacting social services

13 about such clients in appropriate cases?

14 MS ALEXANDROU: No, I am not.

15 MISS LAWSON: You are not. Is that something we should

16 perhaps ask somebody else who might know?

17 MS ALEXANDROU: Yes.

18 MISS LAWSON: Does it follow from your answer that that is

19 not something you would normally get directly involved

20 in yourself?

21 MS ALEXANDROU: If there is a social services issue, are we

22 talking about the past or now?

23 MISS LAWSON: The past particularly.

24 MS ALEXANDROU: At the time I would not have known what to

25 do.

75



1 MISS LAWSON: Of course you do not know, do you, whether or

2 not that was information that by the time you were

3 looking at this piece of information on 16th September

4 social services had already?

5 MS ALEXANDROU: Sorry?

6 MISS LAWSON: You only know what you saw in the housing

7 file. You were being asked whether you passed on

8 a piece of information to social services to the effect

9 that by the time of the home visit on 16th September,

10 Victoria was not at school. Because you did not pass it

11 on and did not discuss it, you do not know whether that

12 was something that Social Services Department knew

13 already, do you?

14 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

15 MISS LAWSON: Whereas -- again sir it is really more for

16 your note than for the witness's evidence -- we know

17 that certainly by 5th August at 6/163, Miss Arthurworrey

18 was aware of that piece of information.

19 Finally, can I ask you to have bundle 6, page 56.

20 You were being asked by Ms Gibson about whether or not

21 there had been a letter telling social services about

22 the outcome of the housing application. What I am

23 asking you to look at here is Miss Arthurworrey's notes,

24 she is the social worker, about what she was doing. If

25 you look at the top of that page you see a reference to

76



1 her memo to the Housing Manager chasing up the housing.

2 That is the one on the 25th August which found its way

3 into the housing file.

4 If you go down a column you see 9th September

5 Miss Arthurworrey making a telephone call to Housing,

6 the purpose of which she says was to chase up that memo

7 sent on 25th August, and she says the outcome was that

8 she was informed that a visit had taken place during the

9 first week of September.

10 "Appears Marie-Therese may have made herself

11 intentionally homeless. Left secure accommodation in

12 France. Will be writing to mother for more

13 information."

14 Now, was it you that Miss Arthurworrey had that

15 conversation with or not?

16 MS ALEXANDROU: Not that I recall.

17 MISS LAWSON: At all events she seems to have had some

18 information to that effect. Again, you were asked

19 whether or not the Housing Department should have

20 followed the matter up by some further visit to explain

21 to Miss Kouao why her application was being turned down,

22 do you remember?

23 MS ALEXANDROU: No, I do not.

24 MISS LAWSON: Certainly the Housing Department did not make

25 any further visit. Do you know whether anyone from

77



1 Social Services did, Miss Arthurworrey for example?

2 MS ALEXANDROU: No, I do not.

3 MISS LAWSON: Again, sir, we of course know that she did.

4 Sir while I am on my feet may I mention Mr Garnham

5 has drawn to my attention in relation to the previous

6 application that he did indeed in his opening refer to

7 the guidance as only in draft form. I had not checked

8 his opening recently enough to be sure of that. I of

9 course accept his correction. Mr Garnham is quite right

10 and I am quite wrong, as Mr Garnham usually is.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for putting me right on

12 that also.

13 Miss Alexandrou, just a few questions. If you could

14 go to page 17 in the bundle. This is just so that you

15 can help me clarify something. You will see at the top

16 there it says: "194 points, 2 bedroomed accommodation."

17 If you can go back to the very first page, 0601. Do you

18 have it? That is it there. First of all, what is that?

19 What is this page that we are looking at?

20 MS ALEXANDROU: It looks like the front cover of the file

21 that was made up for the client.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Your housing file?

23 MS ALEXANDROU: The housing file, yes.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: You will see at the top of that it says: "One

25 bedroom, 194 points". This is just to help my

78



1 understanding, please. What is the difference between

2 "one bedroom, 194 points" there, and further on in the

3 form that you have completed, or someone I think it was

4 you completed, "2 bedroomed" that we just looked at?

5 MS ALEXANDROU: I assume it was just a writing error, it is

6 a mistake.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Just a couple of other questions. In

8 relation to something that Miss Lawson said, referring

9 to the Social Services Department, am I not right in

10 thinking that at the time that Victoria was needing help

11 it was one combined department, Social Services and

12 Housing?

13 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right, yes.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: And from your evidence this morning, I want

15 to make sure that I have got this right, you have led me

16 to believe that although it was one department on the

17 headed notepaper, it actually practised as two

18 departments?

19 MS ALEXANDROU: Yes.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words there was not a sort of

21 everyday communication between one section of the

22 department and the other section of the department?

23 MS ALEXANDROU: Not that I am aware of, no.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Miss Lawson also referred quite rightly to

25 the diversity of the population in Haringey and I think

79



1 it also could be said that there is a fair proportion of

2 the population in Haringey that I would regard as

3 mobile, moving from one part of London to another. When

4 an application was received of this kind by Kouao, what

5 contact would you have had with your neighbouring

6 boroughs such as Brent or Ealing?

7 MS ALEXANDROU: From what I recall from seeing the file

8 recently she never came from another borough, she came

9 from France, so I would not have been aware to contact

10 another borough.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: There would not be routine checks made with

12 other boroughs?

13 MS ALEXANDROU: The only routine checks we would have done

14 if an address history was provided by the client which

15 would prompt us to contact other boroughs in that

16 instance.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: If the client alerted you you would follow it

18 through, but if the client did not alert you no action

19 would be taken?

20 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: One final thing, it is just to clarify

22 something that Ms Gibson asked you, and I will read it.

23 Ms Gibson's question was:

24 "And what would the position be now in relation to

25 a referral where you knew that there were [interest from

80



1 Social Services], where you knew Social Services were

2 involved?" and your response was:

3 "After this case we are now very careful to have

4 a lot of contact with Social Services to inform them of

5 every decision we make and any progress with our cases."

6 What kind of cases are you in touch with social

7 services about, because Miss Lawson quite rightly said

8 it can be a whole range of cases, so what kind of cases

9 would you be in touch with social services about?

10 MS ALEXANDROU: Either issues that we might be concerned

11 about that we have contacted social services about or

12 vice versa, issues they are concerned with that they

13 have contacted us about and we are dealing with the

14 housing file.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: It need not necessarily be children?

16 MS ALEXANDROU: I do not know.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: You do not know. Thank you very much indeed.

18 Ms Gibson.

19 MS GIBSON: Thank you, I have no further questions. You may

20 leave now.

21 Sir, Mr Sheldon will take the next witness.

22 MR SHELDON: Karen McGregor please.

23 MS KAREN McGREGOR (sworn)

24 MR SHELDON: Good afternoon. Would you confirm your full

25 name and professional address please.

81



1 MS McGREGOR: Karen Maria McGregor, Haringey Council, Apex

2 House, 820 Seven Sisters Road, N15.

3 MR SHELDON: You prepared a statement for use by this

4 Inquiry, a copy of which is about to be put in front of

5 you. Can you have a look at the last page of it please.

6 Is that your signature?

7 MS McGREGOR: It is.

8 MR SHELDON: Are you happy that the facts and matters in

9 that statement are true?

10 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

11 MR SHELDON: You started work for Haringey Council in 1995

12 I think, is that right?

13 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

14 MR SHELDON: Originally as an administrative officer in the

15 Housing Department?

16 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

17 MR SHELDON: You became a home visitor in 1997?

18 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

19 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that you were not

20 given a job description in written form when you started

21 because you were supernumery staff, is that right?

22 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

23 MR SHELDON: And that despite your efforts to do so you have

24 never obtained one from your employers, or at least that

25 was the position when you made your statement.

82



1 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

2 MR SHELDON: Have you ever been given a written job

3 description?

4 MS McGREGOR: Not personally but I have seen one recently.

5 MR SHELDON: Could you have a look at volume 16, page 125.

6 Is that the one you have been shown?

7 MS McGREGOR: I think so, yes.

8 MR SHELDON: If we can have a look at one or two of the

9 items listed there. Could you read the section entitled

10 "Basic Objectives" which says that those are:

11 "... to visit applicants for housing assistance in

12 their homes, assess and report back on their housing

13 circumstances and needs, to advise applicants on methods

14 of help available and undertake any follow up work

15 required."

16 Are those what you saw to be the basic objectives of

17 your role in 1999?

18 MS McGREGOR: Well I was not given a job description at all,

19 so ...

20 MR SHELDON: But you must have had some idea of what you

21 thought your job was, and was it that?

22 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

23 MR SHELDON: Item 1:

24 "Main duties: to carry out home visits at the

25 request of the Housing Registration Team, casework

83



1 teams, other local authorities and housing

2 associations."

3 Again is that what you thought your job to

4 encompass?

5 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

6 MR SHELDON: Item 4:

7 "To give advice on aid available to housing

8 applicants, for example help with rehousing, welfare

9 rights, home ownership schemes and to refer on to other

10 sources as appropriate."

11 Again, something you thought was part of your job?

12 MS McGREGOR: This is not something which I was given when

13 I was --

14 MR SHELDON: I entirely understand that. The basis of my

15 questions is this. You must have had some idea as to

16 what you thought your job involved whilst you were doing

17 it in 1999. I know you were not given a written job

18 description. What I am attempting to establish is

19 whether this job description and the elements to which

20 I am directing your attention corresponds to what you

21 thought your job was whilst you were doing it?

22 MS McGREGOR: I suppose so.

23 MR SHELDON: Over the page, item 9:

24 "To establish the true nature of the relationship

25 between putative lessors and lessees of private

84



1 housing."

2 Again is that something you thought you might have

3 to do sometimes in 1999?

4 MS McGREGOR: I am not really sure because I actually worked

5 from a standard form so all the questions I would ask

6 them are actually on the standard form. So I would not

7 really go into detail like that.

8 MR SHELDON: So the limit of your function as you saw it in

9 1999 was to ask the questions that were set out on the

10 standard form you were using?

11 MS McGREGOR: That is correct.

12 MR SHELDON: And not to go beyond that unless specifically

13 instructed to do so?

14 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

15 MR SHELDON: We will come on to the form in just a moment

16 and exactly the questions that were on it. But before

17 we do so, you mention in your statement that one of the

18 things in addition to the specific questions on the form

19 that you would sometimes have to assess was firstly

20 whether or not the applicant was living at the address

21 that they claimed to be living at.

22 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

23 MR SHELDON: And you list various sorts of investigations

24 that you might undertake to establish that such as

25 looking for toiletries and clothes.

85



1 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

2 MR SHELDON: Now, the exact nature of that investigation

3 might vary from case to case, might it not, as to what

4 you would look for, what questions you would ask, who

5 you are to speak to, that sort of thing? It would

6 depend on what you found when you got to the flat or

7 house, would it not?

8 MS McGREGOR: I would normally only speak to the applicant

9 of the waiting list application.

10 MR SHELDON: You mention that in paragraph 8 I believe of

11 your statement. You say:

12 "On a waiting list case it is only necessary to

13 speak to the person who is applying for housing."

14 That is your understanding of the position, is it?

15 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

16 MR SHELDON: If you were attempting to understand whether or

17 not the applicant was really living at the address or

18 whether the applicant had made false or true statements

19 on their application, why might you not want to talk to

20 the applicant's children, the applicant's landlord, the

21 applicant's friends or neighbours?

22 MS McGREGOR: As far as I know I will take only information

23 from her, the applicant, and report back to the Housing

24 Registration Team and they will follow up their

25 investigations.

86



1 MR SHELDON: So if the landlord was there you would not ask

2 the landlord, "Does this person live in your house"?

3 MS McGREGOR: Not necessarily on a waiting list application.

4 MR SHELDON: If one of the objectives of your visit was to

5 find out whether or not the applicant was living at the

6 address they said they were living at, you would not ask

7 the landlord if they were living there?

8 MS McGREGOR: Not necessarily, no.

9 MR SHELDON: Why not?

10 MS McGREGOR: Because I would just ask them the questions to

11 the applicant and I would just note down all what she

12 has said, and from what I have put on the standard form,

13 Housing Registration Team will do all the other

14 investigations.

15 MR SHELDON: You received your instructions to do a home

16 visit in this case from the Housing Registration Team,

17 is that right?

18 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

19 MR SHELDON: And those instructions came in the way of

20 a form that was sent to you with the instructions to do

21 a home visit on it?

22 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

23 MR SHELDON: Let us have a look at that form in volume 6,

24 page 4. Is that the form that you were sent?

25 MS McGREGOR: It is, yes.

87



1 MR SHELDON: Firstly, it is not dated. Are you able to

2 assist us with when you received it?

3 MS McGREGOR: I cannot remember.

4 MR SHELDON: We know that the visit was done on

5 16th September, is that right?

6 MS McGREGOR: That is when the form was dated, so yes.

7 MR SHELDON: Do you normally date the form on the date that

8 you do the visit?

9 MS McGREGOR: The form is signed on the date that I visited.

10 MR SHELDON: So it must have been --

11 MS McGREGOR: That day.

12 MR SHELDON: The visit must have taken place on

13 16th September?

14 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

15 MR SHELDON: How long did it normally take you to get around

16 to doing a visit after you have been sent a form like

17 the one we see on page 4?

18 MS McGREGOR: We have other visits to do as well.

19 MR SHELDON: I am sure you do.

20 MS McGREGOR: So I would say within about two or three weeks

21 or so, depending on the urgency.

22 MR SHELDON: Were you aware of any particular urgency in

23 relation to this case?

24 MS McGREGOR: No, I was not.

25 MR SHELDON: You said in your last answer that it depended

88



1 on the urgency. How would you become aware as to

2 whether or not a particular case was urgent or not?

3 MS McGREGOR: Because when a case gets passed over to me the

4 Registration Team would actually make me aware of that.

5 MR SHELDON: And you were not made aware of any urgency in

6 relation to this case?

7 MS McGREGOR: No.

8 MR SHELDON: Did you know anything about the applicant or

9 about the application for housing other than what is

10 written on that form before you did your home visit?

11 MS McGREGOR: No.

12 MR SHELDON: You were not for example given a copy of the

13 housing application to read before you went?

14 MS McGREGOR: Well, we have the file but I do not always

15 read the file unless there is any sort of complications

16 on the front sheet.

17 MR SHELDON: So in this case all you looked at was this

18 sheet on page 4?

19 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

20 MR SHELDON: Although there would have been other material

21 available to you in the file such as the housing

22 application but you chose not to read it?

23 MS McGREGOR: I suppose so.

24 MR SHELDON: Was there anything else in the file apart from

25 the housing application, and if you did not open the

89



1 file it may be you cannot answer that question.

2 MS McGREGOR: I cannot really remember if I did or if I did

3 not read the file. It is quite a long time ago.

4 MR SHELDON: Did you know before you went on the home visit

5 that this was a family, in particular a child, who were

6 known to social services?

7 MS McGREGOR: No.

8 MR SHELDON: You did not know that the child was a child

9 about whom there had been child protection concerns?

10 MS McGREGOR: No.

11 MR SHELDON: You were not aware that there was an allocated

12 social worker called Lisa Arthurworrey dealing with this

13 family?

14 MS McGREGOR: No.

15 MR SHELDON: And that it was in response to a request from

16 her that this application was being expedited?

17 MS McGREGOR: No.

18 MR SHELDON: So there was no indication as far as you were

19 aware that there was anything going on in relation to

20 this case other than a straightforward housing waiting

21 list application?

22 MS McGREGOR: Not that I can remember.

23 MR SHELDON: Let us have a look and see what the form that

24 you definitely did read told you. We can see that the

25 officer requesting the visit is someone called Rika,

90



1 that is Maria Alexandrou?

2 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

3 MR SHELDON: There is "no reason for visit" circled. Items

4 1 to 6 do not have any marks next to them. What did you

5 understand to be the reason for the visit?

6 MS McGREGOR: To check what she circled which is proof of

7 residence, proof of ID, proof of eligibility.

8 MR SHELDON: Are those documents required but you took it

9 from that that they would be the purpose of the visit.

10 Is that right?

11 MS McGREGOR: I have to make sure that the person I am

12 interviewing is the applicant I am seeing.

13 MR SHELDON: Yes. So that would be proof of ID, would it?

14 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

15 MR SHELDON: Proof of residence, proof they actually live

16 there. You were also concerned to find that out, were

17 you?

18 MS McGREGOR: Proof of residence did you say?

19 MR SHELDON: Yes.

20 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

21 MR SHELDON: And proof of eligibility. That was a matter of

22 concern to you as well, was it?

23 MS McGREGOR: Passport, yes.

24 MR SHELDON: What do you understand "eligibility" to mean on

25 that form?

91



1 MS McGREGOR: If she is eligible for housing, how long she

2 has been in the country I suppose.

3 MR SHELDON: Does it mean eligibility to go on the Housing

4 Register?

5 MS McGREGOR: Anyone can actually go on the Housing

6 Register.

7 MR SHELDON: I see. Could you have volume 42, please,

8 page 73. This is a document which starts on page 71 and

9 is called the Haringey Housing Allocation Scheme. On

10 page 73 there is a section "Eligibility for the Housing

11 Register". Paragraph 2 .1:

12 "To appear on Haringey Council's Housing Register an

13 applicant must be aged 16 or over, currently reside in

14 the borough in their only or principal home, and have

15 been resident in the borough for at least six out of the

16 last 12 months or three out of the last five years."

17 So I took it from that that not everybody could go

18 on the Housing Register, only those people that were so

19 eligible.

20 MS McGREGOR: I suppose anybody can register to go on the

21 Housing Register, but they will be -- but whether or not

22 they will be considered is another question.

23 MR SHELDON: Were they the criteria that you were attempting

24 to satisfy yourself on in respect of proof of

25 eligibility?

92



1 MS McGREGOR: That is not something I would really look at.

2 That is down to the Housing Registration Team. They

3 would actually vet the housing registration form.

4 MR SHELDON: It might be that I am unnecessarily

5 complicating this, and if I am I am sorry. But what

6 I want to understand is you say that you took from the

7 form on page 4 that one of the purposes of your visit

8 was to obtain proof of eligibility.

9 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

10 MR SHELDON: The question I am searching for an answer for

11 is eligibility for what?

12 MS McGREGOR: For housing.

13 MR SHELDON: And what do you need to prove to establish your

14 eligibility for housing?

15 MS McGREGOR: What it says here: "has been resident in the

16 borough for at least six out of the last 12 months".

17 MR SHELDON: So this is the eligibility we are talking

18 about?

19 MS McGREGOR: I suppose so, yes.

20 MR SHELDON: Did you know that at the time?

21 MS McGREGOR: I would guess so, yes.

22 MR SHELDON: So you were concerned amongst other things to

23 obtain documents from the applicant, Mrs Kouao, to show

24 firstly that she was 16 or over; that may not be very

25 difficult.

93



1 MS McGREGOR: I suppose so.

2 MR SHELDON: Secondly that she was residing in the borough

3 in her only or her principal home, yes?

4 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

5 MR SHELDON: And thirdly that she had been resident in the

6 borough for at least six out of the last 12 months or

7 three out of the last five years. Yes?

8 MS McGREGOR: Yes, but that is not something I would

9 actually ask her at the interview though. I would ask

10 her for proof of residence as in letters, bank

11 statements, things like that.

12 MR SHELDON: But you have been sent to obtain proof of

13 eligibility. Eligibility is based upon the three

14 criteria we have looked at, one of which is residence in

15 the borough for six out of the last 12 months, so you

16 were being specifically sent to get documentary evidence

17 of that, were you not?

18 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

19 MR SHELDON: So why would you not ask her for it?

20 MS McGREGOR: Well I do ask her for other documents to prove

21 that she is actually living at that address.

22 MR SHELDON: I see. Let us look at what documents you did

23 get. Volume 6, page 3. "Documents seen: passport,

24 French. Child on passport". Is that the only document

25 that you saw?

94



1 MS McGREGOR: I would suppose so. That is all I have

2 written down.

3 MR SHELDON: If we look at page 14 in that volume as well,

4 we see again: "Documents: passport, French. Child on

5 passport" is the only one recorded, so that would seem

6 to be the only one that you saw.

7 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

8 MR SHELDON: So there was no documentary proof provided of

9 residence or length of residence, was there?

10 MS McGREGOR: No, but that is something which could be

11 followed up whilst the investigation is taking place.

12 MR SHELDON: Have you noted anywhere on any of the documents

13 that you filled out that that was something that needed

14 to be followed up?

15 MS McGREGOR: No.

16 MR SHELDON: So how would someone know that that was further

17 action that needed to be taken despite the fact that you

18 had done a home visit?

19 MS McGREGOR: From my notes if they have seen it is only

20 a passport which has been seen I would have thought that

21 they would have known that they should ask for more

22 documents.

23 MR SHELDON: One might have got the impression from

24 Ms Alexandrou's evidence earlier this morning that

25 a large amount of the investigation of the application

95



1 was going to take place at the home visit. She gave

2 that response to a number of questions as to why she had

3 not done further investigative work herself but all you

4 have done is obtain a passport and that is it, is it

5 not?

6 MS McGREGOR: I cannot remember the exact day but maybe that

7 is all she had. I mean, I do not know. I cannot

8 remember.

9 MR SHELDON: Let us consider in that case what you were told

10 as well as what you were given in documentary form, but

11 before we do it might be useful to confirm the extent of

12 your recollection of this interview. I am right to say

13 that you cannot remember what occurred during the course

14 of this visit?

15 MS McGREGOR: I cannot remember.

16 MR SHELDON: And that you cannot remember who was present at

17 the visit apart from Mrs Kouao?

18 MS McGREGOR: That is correct.

19 MR SHELDON: Your recollection as recorded in your statement

20 is based upon what you have written in the notes we see

21 in the bundle?

22 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

23 MR SHELDON: And your recollection is likely to have been

24 affected by a period of six months or so where you were

25 unwell at the beginning of last year?

96



1 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

2 MR SHELDON: Let us look at the record of the interview

3 which starts at page 2 in that volume. Did you make

4 this record?

5 MS McGREGOR: I did, yes.

6 MR SHELDON: When did you make it?

7 MS McGREGOR: It is dated 16th September 1999.

8 MR SHELDON: Does that mean that you wrote it whilst you

9 were in the flat doing the home visit or is it your

10 practice to write it up after you get back to the

11 office?

12 MS McGREGOR: When I get back to the office.

13 MR SHELDON: We can see from that record of interview that

14 you interviewed Miss Kouao and it seems that you only

15 interviewed Miss Kouao because you do not mention

16 talking to anybody else. Is that right?

17 MS McGREGOR: I think so, yes.

18 MR SHELDON: If you had spoken for example to Mr Manning

19 would you have recorded that in your record of

20 interview?

21 MS McGREGOR: If I had spoken to him.

22 MR SHELDON: But we cannot be assisted as to whether or not

23 that indicates whether he was there or not because you

24 have already said that you might not have spoken to him

25 even if he was there.

97



1 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

2 MR SHELDON: You also cannot remember whether Victoria was

3 there, is that right?

4 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

5 MR SHELDON: Again we do not know whether her omission from

6 this document means that she was not there, because

7 again you might not have spoken to her even if she was?

8 MS McGREGOR: I would not normally speak to children anyway.

9 MR SHELDON: Why is that?

10 MS McGREGOR: Especially if they are under age I would not

11 normally speak to them.

12 MR SHELDON: Why not?

13 MS McGREGOR: Because they are too young.

14 MR SHELDON: Too young to do what?

15 MS McGREGOR: Well, I would not.

16 MR SHELDON: To confirm whether they live there? A 17 year

17 old child for example, how --

18 MS McGREGOR: I am not saying that age, at the age of 17.

19 MR SHELDON: What do you mean by under age?

20 MS McGREGOR: Probably if they are under that age or so. If

21 it is a young child I would not normally speak to

22 a younger child.

23 MR SHELDON: Let us see what Miss Kouao told you. Firstly,

24 how well do you recall being able to communicate with

25 her?

98



1 MS McGREGOR: I cannot remember but if there was any

2 problems with her language I would have noted it.

3 MR SHELDON: So the absence of any note on the documents

4 indicates that you must have been able to communicate

5 with her tolerably well for these purposes?

6 MS McGREGOR: I would think so.

7 MR SHELDON: You record her as saying on page 2 that she had

8 been living at the address since 24th March 1999, is

9 that right?

10 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

11 MR SHELDON: Did you ask her for any evidence of that?

12 MS McGREGOR: I cannot remember.

13 MR SHELDON: That is one of the key elements of the

14 eligibility criteria that we have looked at, is it not?

15 MS McGREGOR: Yes.

16 MR SHELDON: So why would you not have asked her for it?

17 MS McGREGOR: Like I said, I cannot remember.

18 MR SHELDON: There is no reason why you would not ask for

19 it, is there?

20 MS McGREGOR: Not really, but I cannot remember if I did or

21 did not ask her.

22 MR SHELDON: The fact she has given the date of 24th March

23 1999 and that you are doing this visit on 16th September

24 1999 indicates that pursuant to the criteria we have

25 looked at she is not eligible to go on the Housing

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1 Register, is she?

2 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

3 MR SHELDON: Is that something you have recorded anywhere?

4 MS McGREGOR: Not that I can see.

5 MR SHELDON: Is that something you would have been aware of

6 at the time?

7 MS McGREGOR: I cannot remember.

8 MR SHELDON: Prior to 24th March 1999 she had been living in

9 France in council property as a tenant but had given

10 that up to come to the UK, is that what she told you?

11 MS McGREGOR: From my notes.

12 MR SHELDON: Did you ask her why she had given up her

13 accommodation in France to come to the UK?

14 MS McGREGOR: From my notes I think it just says she left on

15 her own accord, so I am assuming I did ask her and she

16 just said she just left. I am not sure why.

17 MR SHELDON: You were told that there were four people

18 currently living in the property, it would appear from

19 your note. Is that right?

20 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

21 MR SHELDON: And that they all slept on the floor?

22 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

23 MR SHELDON: At the bottom of page 2 you note the following:

24 "Clothes and toiletries were seen". What is the

25 significance of that?

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1 MS McGREGOR: That is just another thing as well to see if

2 they are living there, if they have clothing there. In

3 some cases they do not have anything there.

4 MR SHELDON: So you saw toiletries and clothing?

5 MS McGREGOR: I would guess so from my notes.

6 MR SHELDON: And that is one of the ways you determine

7 whether or not they live there?

8 MS McGREGOR: I would suppose so.

9 MR SHELDON: So by writing that down you would be indicating

10 to whoever looked at this form subsequently that your

11 view and your investigations had indicated that there

12 was evidence that they did live there?

13 MS McGREGOR: There was evidence of clothing and toiletries.

14 MR SHELDON: Is there any reason why that clothing and those

15 toiletries should not have belonged to Mr Manning's

16 fiancee for example, about whom you were told?

17 MS McGREGOR: Well, I was shown clothing but according to my

18 notes there was another person living there.

19 MR SHELDON: So you were shown some women's clothing but

20 there were allegedly two adult women living in the flat.

21 MS McGREGOR: That is right.

22 MR SHELDON: So the clothing did not really help you, did

23 it?

24 MS McGREGOR: That is for the Housing Registration Team to

25 actually look into further if there are any doubts on