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Archived Transcript for 26 November 2001: Pages
1 to 150
1
1 Monday, 26th November 2001
2 (10.00 am)
3 MISS LISA ARTHURWORREY (continued)
4 MR GARNHAM: Sir, I think Miss Hoyal had finished her
5 questioning.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes indeed, thank you. Good morning
7 Miss Arthurworrey.
8 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Good morning.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I just want to understand a little better
10 about your social work practice in Haringey but before
11 I get on to that could you just help me a little bit
12 with your background, in that do you have your witness
13 statement in front of you? If not, could we have it
14 please. From the early paragraphs of your very helpful
15 statement for which I am grateful, it seemed to me that
16 you were conveying that you had not effortlessly glided
17 through school picking up good grades along the way,
18 looking to a choice of universities and then a career of
19 life opportunities. Would that be right?
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is right, yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Furthermore, you had to finance yourself
22 through university?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: In an area of activity that must have given
25 you at least another insight into human behaviour?
2
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is right, very much so.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: In fact, to get to university you showed
3 great determination and resilience which is a great
4 credit to you.
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it from paragraph 9 of your witness
7 statement, and I do not want to go into the details, but
8 I take it from what you have said in paragraph 9 that
9 along the way you had taken a few personal knocks.
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Paragraph 9, voluntary work.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the first part of that paragraph, if
12 I understood it right. As I say, I do not want to go
13 into the detail but I understand you to be saying that
14 you went along to the Racial Harassment Helpline.
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is right, that was by accident
16 though.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: But then you did voluntary work which again
18 is a credit to you but in an area which must have made
19 you realise that for some people life is difficult and
20 you saw what might be called the ugly side of human
21 nature.
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely, yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: All of that is a great credit to you and
24 I pay tribute to you for that. Then you did your social
25 work training and I imagine that when people came to
3
1 select you they saw you as somebody who had got quite
2 a lot of experience of life. You had seen these facets
3 of human nature and therefore you might be called what
4 I would describe as worldly wise.
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I do not know whether I thought of it
6 like that.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, you were not the average young person
8 straight from school going into social work, were you?
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: When you trained you then went to Hammersmith
11 and Fulham and would you agree with me that that is
12 a borough that has a high proportion of asylum seekers?
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It was, yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Quite a proportion of people that live
15 a transient life?
16 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: So by the time Victoria's case landed on your
18 desk, however that was done and that is a matter that we
19 will deal with later on, you had had your social work
20 training and almost two years of practice working with
21 children and families.
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess that you would have realised very
24 early on in working with children and families that
25 social work in that area almost always involves
4
1 conflict?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words, cases of this kind do not
4 come to Social Services unless there are either serious
5 concerns of neglect or abuse or warring parents and
6 where the child is caught up in a difficult situation.
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: So to be a social worker in that setting you
9 have to be both tough minded and sharply focused.
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is right.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Sometimes the decisions that you have to make
12 are very painful.
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: (Nods).
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, when Victoria's file was given to you,
15 I want to be clear what actually was on the file. Do
16 you remember exactly what was on the file? Which papers
17 were on the file?
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I am going to look in my statement
19 first, okay?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, of course. Let me help you. It was not
21 just a front sheet with a name and address on it. There
22 were the papers from the hospital. Let me help you more
23 if I may. Were the child protection forms from the
24 hospital in the file?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I do not remember seeing any child
5
1 protection forms on Victoria's file at that stage. I do
2 not recollect.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: So what can you recollect of what was on the
4 file?
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I remember seeing the initial referral
6 and I remember seeing the strategy meeting, the initial
7 strategy meeting recommendations and I remember seeing
8 the first contact sheet.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: So why did you think Victoria had been
10 admitted to hospital?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Because that was mentioned on the
12 initial referral.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I mean what was the reason she was
14 admitted to hospital?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: For the scalding.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Not for any other reason?
17 MISS ARTHURWORREY: She was admitted because of the
18 scalding, which was not seen as suspicious until the
19 hospital bathed Victoria a couple of days later and it
20 was then that concerns were raised regarding old
21 markings.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: So when did you see the initial child
23 protection forms that were completed in the hospital in
24 the Accident and Emergency?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: When I asked Nurse Isobel Quinn to fax
6
1 me over a report from the nurses regarding their
2 concerns of neglect and I asked for Victoria's medical
3 history.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Therefore why did this file land on your desk
5 if child protection?
6 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Why did it land on my desk?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Why indeed.
8 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Because I was a social worker.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: No, why was it described as child protection?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Why was it described?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Because the Section 47, because the
13 strategy meeting had been convened.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, and presumably I mean that just did not
15 happen out of the blue, it happened because somebody had
16 referred the case to the department as a child
17 protection case?
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: So you were in no doubt it was child
20 protection?
21 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I was in no doubt that it was child
22 protection.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, when you did your training, in your
24 experience what were you taught about the essentials of
25 doing a child protection investigation?
7
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That mainly Section 47 investigations
2 should be completed quite speedily. There should be an
3 importance of obtaining all the relevant information
4 before the start of the investigation and that basically
5 during the course of our enquiries two questions need to
6 be asked: Is this a child in need? Do we have
7 reasonable grounds to suspect that this child is at risk
8 of significant harm?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: What did you do to follow that procedure?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Basically, with regards to Victoria's
11 case, I had established by my first interview with Kouao
12 that Victoria was a child in need. Given the
13 information from the North Middlesex Hospital,
14 Constable Jones and myself did not have reasonable
15 grounds to believe that Victoria was a child who was
16 likely to suffer significant harm, but advice and
17 assistance and family support services needed to be
18 offered to both Kouao and Victoria to help promote her
19 upbringing and welfare.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: For the seven months that Victoria was
21 alive -- 11 months in this country, seven out of the
22 11 months you on behalf of Haringey were the social
23 worker responsible for her safety and well-being.
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: How many times did you see Victoria in seven
8
1 months?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I first saw Victoria on 6th August, that
3 was at the North Middlesex Hospital. I then saw her on
4 16th August, that was a home visit at 267 Somerset
5 Gardens. I then saw her on 28th October which again was
6 a home visit, 267 Somerset Gardens, and I saw Victoria
7 in our office on 1st November, that is when the
8 allegations of sexual abuse were made.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: So four times in seven months.
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: And of those four times how many times did
12 you see Victoria alone?
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I saw Victoria alone during the hospital
14 visit on 6th August. I saw her alone briefly on
15 1st November.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Tell me how many minutes those two visits
17 together would have amounted to.
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: About 30 minutes and that is being
19 generous.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: In that time, because I need to understand
21 this, did it ever get beyond you in effect saying to
22 Victoria, "Hello, how are you?"
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It did not get further than that.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Who was your client?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Victoria.
9
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Looking back, what do you think of that?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It is appalling.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: You said in answer to Mr Garnham that you
4 were not a police officer and that is absolutely true.
5 But neither was the police officer a social worker and
6 if there was going to be any action that was needed like
7 an emergency protection order, it would have been you
8 that would have had to have taken that, assembled all
9 the facts to put to the court.
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: What did you do as a social worker to get
12 yourself in a position to actually be able to do that,
13 should it become necessary?
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I sought to obtain all the development
15 details before I interviewed Kouao and Victoria. That
16 meant obtaining crucially the medical information
17 because that is where the referral came from.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but it was not going to be the medical
19 information that you were going to have to rely upon.
20 You were going to have to rely upon the social
21 information.
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: So here you are seeing the child, I do not
24 know, did you say four times in seven months and less
25 than 30 minutes on her own. I mean, could you ever have
10
1 actually presented the court with anything that was
2 going to result in an order, had that become necessary?
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I think that was a problem in Victoria's
4 case, the lack of information that was available to me.
5 The only information that I did have available was the
6 handwritten notes by Nurse Quinn, Victoria's handwritten
7 medical notes from North Middlesex Hospital, the
8 handwritten note from the Central Middlesex Hospital and
9 the medical notes that accompanied that.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, all of that was no doubt helpful
11 background but that was all it could be. What was
12 essential after that was the information that you
13 assembled as a social worker.
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: From Victoria and Kouao, that is
15 correct, yes.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: One of the things about social work in
17 childcare is that the legislation, the regulations and
18 the practice guidance are a great deal more detailed
19 than in other parts of social work.
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: (Nods).
21 THE CHAIRMAN: How closely do you think that you followed
22 the practice guidance in how to handle a child
23 protection investigation?
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I remember following the practice
25 guidelines, well, in terms of the Children Act very
11
1 closely and I do remember after the interview with
2 Victoria, when Carole Baptiste asked me what I thought
3 of the situation, because we had very little
4 information, what I did was apply the law. We did not
5 have reason to suspect that Victoria was at risk of
6 significant harm through the evidence that we had
7 received. And the interviews with Kouao and also the
8 information that I had with regards to the family
9 situation gave me a history which suggested that this
10 was a family struggling to find their feet in a new
11 country as opposed to a child abuse case.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, that is interesting. You said in
13 answer to Mr Garnham that as a social worker you
14 believed what people tell you. Did you really mean that
15 answer?
16 MISS ARTHURWORREY: In terms of when we are working with
17 clients and they are presenting us with facts, they are
18 giving us an account of their situation, I tried to
19 believe it as far as I could.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Where did you get that from? None of the
21 guidance -- did your training tell you to believe what
22 everybody tells you?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I do not think it is about believing
24 what everybody tells you. My training taught me that
25 sometimes clients do know what is best for them rather
12
1 than professionals and sometimes when professionals go
2 in with their own view of the situation, that can
3 prevent working together, working in partnership,
4 because what the professional may think is best for the
5 family, the family may not think is best for them.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: I absolutely agree with that, absolutely, and
7 I would not mean to imply that professionals should know
8 what is best. What I was wanting to put to you was do
9 you agree with me that the only way a social worker can
10 actually go about their job in the care of children is
11 to painstakingly question and record and to build up
12 a picture to look for inconsistencies?
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: And looking at your case file, would you say
15 that I could see evidence of all of that being done?
16 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, that was not done.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: This is very important because you said at
18 the second strategy meeting the allegation of sexual
19 abuse was not believed.
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: The second strategy meeting did not
21 believe the allegation of sexual abuse, no.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Point me to the evidence that it reached that
23 judgment on.
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I think it was the circumstances in
25 which the allegation was made by Kouao. It was also
13
1 Victoria's presentation on that day and it was just
2 something that just came out of the blue and I know that
3 professionals have to be aware that discussions that
4 they have with clients may make them act in a certain
5 way, and I certainly know that on Thursday 28th October
6 1999 I was discussing with Kouao Victoria's educational
7 needs, and I did say to her that she needed to make
8 a decision as soon as possible because I thought that
9 Victoria's best interests would be in a return trip to
10 France at that stage. When the allegations of sexual
11 abuse came in three days later, the whole circumstances
12 from the time I received the telephone call on
13 1st November, there were a number of inconsistencies.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: The truth of the matter is that neither you
15 nor I nor anyone else knows whether the sexual
16 allegations were right or not because we have no basis
17 on which to make that judgment. The purpose of the
18 strategy meeting was actually to devise a strategy to
19 actually test this out.
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the strategy meeting did not exactly do
22 that, did it?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It did not.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: When you did your spot checks that you
25 referred to to the house, to see if Victoria was there,
14
1 Kouao and Manning were there, did you claim your mileage
2 allowance for that?
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Did I claim my mileage? There are lots
4 of occasions when I did not claim my mileage because
5 that was yet again another paperwork exercise. Social
6 workers had to complete a very complicated form and more
7 often than not mileage was not claimed.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: So you did not record in the case notes, you
9 did not record in your diary and you did not record on
10 your mileage claim these visits.
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: All I can say is that these visits were
12 made early in the morning before I arrived at work, on
13 the way to work, and in the evening on the way home.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Did your training tell you that in cases of
15 child protection, or indeed any matters involving the
16 safety of a young child, recording of all of this kind
17 of material is absolutely essential?
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely, but the problem in social
19 work is that it is very difficult to keep on top of
20 recording and sometimes you could find situations where
21 social workers have worked cases from the start to the
22 end and have not had the opportunity to record in the
23 file. They take notes and knowledge of the cases are
24 held in their heads because there just is not the time
25 to keep on top of recording.
15
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, that I understand. But there is part of
2 this which is good practice but there is another part of
3 it which is, put at its bluntest, self protection, in
4 that you know that child protection work is an area of
5 activity for social workers in which they are themselves
6 quite at risk if things go wrong.
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is right.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: I do not imagine that you have enjoyed this
9 experience.
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Not at all.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: So even for self protection would you not
12 have thought it important to record your activities?
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: All I can tell you was the week that
14 I made the spot visits was a very unsettling week in the
15 department. We were going on industrial action. You
16 have been informed that we were working in an office
17 that was under bombardment. It was just completely
18 chaotic and I was doing a lot of actions on my cases but
19 not recording them down because I just did not have the
20 time.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Half your casework was child protection work.
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Was the way in which the case was handled in
24 respect of Victoria typical of your child protection
25 work?
16
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I think the problem with Victoria's case
2 is that in my mind, because of my dealings with Kouao
3 and Manning, after the initial strategy meeting I had
4 placed Victoria's case into a family support category,
5 regrettably so.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Let us talk about another aspect of self
7 protection. You said that you saw Angella Mairs remove
8 important papers from your case file.
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: This was a pretty serious thing to happen.
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely and I was very distressed at
12 the time.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you protest?
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did not know who to protest to.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you protest to the person who was doing
16 it?
17 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Angella Mairs?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: As I have said, Angella Mairs was the
20 headmistress, I was a child who was seen but could not
21 be heard, and I had seen what happened to children who
22 challenged Angella Mairs.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Did you know the person who had
24 requested the file, Miss Wilson?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Not particularly well, no.
17
1 THE CHAIRMAN: How many times had you met her?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Never.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: You had never met her?
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Never.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you think of dropping her a note to tell
6 her what had happened to the case file?
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, I did not.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: How many times had you met the Director of
9 Social Services?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Never.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you think of dropping her a note?
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, I did not.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: You were an active member of UNISON and you
14 went on strike at the time. Did you tell UNISON what
15 had happened to your case file?
16 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I actually had an issue -- no, I did
17 not, sorry, no, I did not. In fact I did not even know
18 who to approach in UNISON. At the time of Victoria's
19 death I was not even aware of who the branch secretary
20 was. I had no idea about UNISON, their structures, how
21 they worked.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: So despite your training and your awareness
23 of child protection work, and particularly the issues
24 that follow the death of a child, you did not think of
25 recording something as important as this or telling
18
1 anybody about it, other than a colleague in the office?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Recording, that incident, I mean I just
3 did not have -- from the 28th February that file was out
4 of my possession.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I meant recording your concern that some
6 papers had been removed from the file.
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I recorded my concerns at the first
8 opportunity that I had which was in my response to the
9 Part 8.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Just remind us when that was. How long
11 after this incident did you --
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Okay, the Part 8 inquiry took place
13 in May 2000. The first draft report was ready
14 in September. I read the draft report at around the end
15 of September and I -- as soon as I read that report
16 I knew that I would have to put in a reply because it
17 was just so grossly factually inaccurate. Then I got
18 suspended, then I was preparing myself for the
19 Old Bailey trial and I actually wrote that response
20 after I had given evidence at the Central Criminal
21 Court. That was the first opportunity.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Roughly what time are we talking about?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: December.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: You have mentioned your office, you described
25 it the other day as like a school, if I recall
19
1 correctly. I have to say there are lots of
2 organisations both in the public sector and in the
3 private sector, some very successful, who are described
4 in much worse terms than that, so you will have to tell
5 me a little more about what were the things that
6 concerned you about the office.
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: The things that concerned me in that
8 office was the fact that the people who were supposed to
9 be advising me and guiding me to assist me in promoting
10 and safeguarding the welfare of children were interested
11 in other things, and I can give you an example.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Please.
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I carried Victoria's case file for six
14 months. Out of that six months I have calculated that
15 Victoria probably had about 30 minutes' -- and again
16 I am being generous -- worth of consultation time with
17 the people who were supposed to be advising and
18 assisting me, and that is abysmal.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: So --
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I think managers were overworked, had
21 too much work to do and they liked to control the
22 children. They liked to work and control the children.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Go on, please finish.
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Just to give you an example of one of
25 the dynamics, I can think of December 2000, just before
20
1 Christmas, the headmistress and head girls decided it
2 would be good for the children to go out for Christmas
3 dinner, to have a Christmas lunch. Because there was
4 not any sort of sense of team in the Duty Investigation
5 and Assessment Team, the children did not want to go for
6 a Christmas lunch. However, the headmistress and the
7 head girls said yes, it would be good for the team
8 morale if we had a Christmas lunch. They pushed us to
9 the extent where they informed us that they could
10 provide transport because I think social workers were
11 saying -- the children were saying we did not have any
12 means of getting to the venue that had been proposed.
13 We were told that they could arrange transport.
14 In the end the children turned up for this Christmas
15 dinner and the head teacher and the head girls did not,
16 and so what you had was a group of social workers
17 supposed to be enjoying a Christmas lunch and we did not
18 want to be there in the first place but we had been made
19 to go there.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, yes, thanks, that is very interesting.
21 But what was the atmosphere like in the office?
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Conflict. There was always conflict.
23 There was always something happening. There was never
24 peace. Management would be falling out with somebody
25 almost every day and the people that they fell out with
21
1 were the people, were the children that wanted to
2 challenge. Those children that challenged, if they
3 challenged, life was made so difficult for them that
4 they had to leave. Some children were just expelled
5 because management just did not like the look of them
6 and they were told to leave.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: What I do not understand is what seems to be
8 a contradiction so you will have to help me. That is on
9 the one hand you say that you got very little
10 supervision from your managers and they were not often
11 available. On the other hand, you said in evidence the
12 other day, on Thursday and Friday, that every decision
13 that was taken was confirmed by one of your managers.
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Right. I know the situation with
15 Carole Baptiste, Carole always used to say that --
16 I think maybe she knew that she was not available for
17 supervision but she did make the point of saying her
18 door was open for consultation at any time, so most of
19 the discussions that I had with Carole Baptiste
20 regarding Victoria were discussions that took place in
21 the corridor, by my desk, but not during a formal
22 supervision session.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: But it is your view that everything that you
24 did or did not do was known and confirmed by your
25 managers?
22
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me just go back because I meant to ask
3 you, when you went on your spot visits, and you know
4 what I am talking about, on one occasion you said you
5 got in. Having got into the building, that is, what did
6 you actually do?
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I knocked on the door of 267 Somerset
8 Gardens, repeatedly. I remember at the time that I was
9 knocking it was light because I think there was a light
10 time switch in the hallway, and I remember knocking and
11 I remember thinking it sounds very quiet and then the
12 light time switch went off and I knocked again. There
13 was no response and then I left.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you attempt to do anything else whilst
15 you were there? Was there a janitor in this building?
16 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, there was not. The only person that
17 I did see was a person who was going into the flats and
18 they were going upstairs to the next floor. As I was
19 going in they went upstairs and I went -- because 267
20 was on the ground floor and that is the only person
21 I saw.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you knock at a neighbour's flat to say,
23 "Has there been anybody there"?
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, I did not.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: The difficulties in the office that you
23
1 referred to, it may be significant that Dr Rossiter and
2 some of the police officers said that working with the
3 Social Services Department was very difficult. Did you
4 understand that there were difficulties?
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Yes, I knew there were difficulties.
6 For example, I know that Angella Mairs did not like the
7 police coming into the Social Services office. She was
8 not happy about that. She did not like them coming into
9 the Duty room and I actually remember when
10 Constable Jones and I were looking at Victoria's file in
11 preparation for the visit to Kouao, Constable Jones said
12 to me this was the first time that she had actually
13 stepped inside our offices.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Why did not she like the police coming into
15 the office?
16 MISS ARTHURWORREY: You would have to ask her that, I do not
17 know.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Was there a general feeling of hostility
19 towards the police or other agencies?
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Yes, there was.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: What was that feeling of hostility based
22 upon?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That basically Social Services knew best
24 I think, to put it simply, and we worked the hardest and
25 we knew our procedures. There was just very little
24
1 consultation.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I will not comment further on that.
3 There are two issues that I need to draw your
4 attention to and the first goes back to when Victoria
5 was discharged from North Middlesex Hospital. You
6 recall that one of the potential criticisms made against
7 you at the time was that you did not discuss with the
8 medical staff at the hospital your reasons for not
9 calling a case conference under the APCP procedures. Do
10 you agree with that?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I agree with that criticism -- I agree
12 that you have made that criticism, yes; I am not sure if
13 I agree with it.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I am saying do you agree with the criticism?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, I do not. First of all I would like
16 to say that I was not familiar with the APCP policies
17 because I had never seen that manual before. Secondly,
18 it was not a recommendation of the first strategy
19 meeting to call a case conference. Had it been then
20 I would have had a duty to discuss with the North
21 Middlesex Hospital my reasons for not wanting to call
22 a case conference.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Your statement that you had never seen the
24 APCP procedures of course flies in the face of your view
25 from the Social Service offices that they knew their
25
1 procedures best and knew how to do their job well.
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: The second one, that following Victoria's
4 discharge from hospital on 6th August you did not take
5 any or adequate steps to ensure that she would receive
6 appropriate follow-up care from health professionals as
7 part of the interagency agreement. Do you agree with
8 that?
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I do not agree with that criticism.
10 I believe that should have been the duty from the North
11 Middlesex Hospital. I have now learned, I mean I had no
12 idea about the discharge summary and what should have
13 happened to that discharge summary. I do now know that
14 that discharge summary that Dr Rossiter prepared for
15 Victoria should have been sent to her GP but in
16 Victoria's case according to the North Middlesex
17 Hospital she was not registered with a GP and I am
18 not sure what should have been done thereafter, but had
19 I been told the steps that I needed to take, if I needed
20 to take those steps, with regards to follow-up in the
21 community, I would have done that but I had no
22 knowledge. I did not even have any knowledge until
23 reading the opening statement that health visitors had
24 been involved or were aware of Victoria's case.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you find that as staggering as I do?
26
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Very staggering.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Absolutely.
3 Miss Hoyal I think I have asked a lot of questions.
4 I think you ought to have the opportunity, if you wish
5 to come back.
6 MR GARNHAM: While Miss Hoyal is considering that could
7 I put one question I have been asked to by one of my
8 learned friends? Only one question, Miss Arthurworrey.
9 You have told us a good deal about relations between
10 Social Services and the police, particularly in answer
11 to the Chairman. Did any of that affect the way you and
12 PC Jones dealt with Victoria's case?
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I do not think so. I think PC Jones and
14 myself worked together to the best of our ability.
15 I know I certainly did anyway. As I have said in
16 evidence, I was not really sure of Police Constable
17 Jones' level of experience. I think the problem for me
18 is that this was the first case that I had undertaken
19 which was a joint investigation with the police and
20 I had had no training and I was just working Victoria's
21 case using my common sense.
22 MR GARNHAM: Thank you sir.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Miss Hoyal, perhaps in fairness to you
24 I ought perhaps to have given you some warning that
25 I was going to do that, but if you want time to think
27
1 about it I am very happy to be as accommodating as
2 I can.
3 MISS HOYAL: It might be helpful to have a five minute
4 break, yes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: By all means. I am happy to have a private
6 discussion with my colleagues so you can have
7 a discussion with your advisers.
8 MISS HOYAL: I was thinking perhaps of a discussion ...
9 THE CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn for five minutes. We will
10 get back here at a quarter to 11.
11 (A short break)
12 MISS HOYAL: Thank you very much for your consideration.
13 First of all, can I ask you about the suggestion
14 that you should have called a case conference in
15 relation to the first child abuse allegation? At any
16 stage during that allegation was it suggested to you or
17 recommended to you that you should convene a case
18 conference?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, it was not.
20 MISS HOYAL: If the strategy meeting had recommended a case
21 conference in relation to that first investigation,
22 would that have made a difference?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It would have made a difference in that
24 I would have had to have been consulting with my manager
25 the outcome of any initial assessment with the view to
28
1 proceeding to a case conference, so yes.
2 MISS HOYAL: With the benefit of hindsight, if you had had
3 access and Haringey had had access to a clear medical
4 report from North Middlesex Hospital outlining the very
5 serious concerns that the nurses and the doctors have
6 put in their statements to this Inquiry identifying belt
7 buckle mark, possible further injury from a belt,
8 branding injury, other very concerning marks which were
9 believed by some of the nurses and the doctors to be the
10 result of physical abuse, if that had been available to
11 the first strategy meeting do you think it would be very
12 likely that that strategy meeting would have wanted an
13 urgent case conference and urgent legal advice in
14 relation to protecting Victoria?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely, yes.
16 MISS HOYAL: With the benefit of hindsight, do you think
17 that that was a fundamental omission in the information
18 provided by North Middlesex Hospital?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely, yes.
20 MISS HOYAL: Now, you have told us that it is very important
21 when you are conducting a Section 47 investigation that
22 you attempt to gather all the relevant information. In
23 the real world that you are living in in North
24 Tottenham, undertaking these investigations on a daily
25 basis at speed, realistically do you ever get all of the
29
1 information you need in advance of the investigation?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Very rarely happens unfortunately.
3 MISS HOYAL: But you nevertheless have to go on and conduct
4 the investigation in the best way that you can under the
5 time pressures and other pressures of the circumstances
6 you are in?
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is the only way the work will get
8 completed, yes.
9 MISS HOYAL: And you commenced this work on 2nd August?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Yes.
11 MISS HOYAL: And you concluded it on 12th August?
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
13 MISS HOYAL: So that was at the outside of the recommended
14 timeframe for such an investigation?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Yes.
16 MISS HOYAL: Of course it is important for a child's safety
17 that these investigations proceed quickly but it is also
18 important in terms of working with a family, if the
19 investigation is not substantiated, that it be done
20 quickly, is it not?
21 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
22 MISS HOYAL: Because if a family have become alienated
23 during the course of an investigation through perhaps
24 a clumsy, hostile, invasive approach they may close down
25 and not be willing to work with you?
30
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
2 MISS HOYAL: Is it good practice in bringing a Section 47
3 investigation to an end after you have had a chance to
4 consider the evidence that you have obtained during the
5 course of that?
6 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Yes.
7 MISS HOYAL: And is the criteria that you are looking at
8 a legal criteria of evidence that would be acceptable to
9 a court of law?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is right, yes.
11 MISS HOYAL: There will invariably be suspicions but without
12 evidence that will go to court there is no possibility
13 of legal recommending an application to a court, is
14 there?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: There is not.
16 MISS HOYAL: On the CP forms and other information which you
17 had from the hospital, was there any suggestion in that
18 that a health visitor had been involved?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, there was not.
20 MISS HOYAL: You made at least two calls to Constable Jones
21 after the second strategy meeting in December.
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
23 MISS HOYAL: In the first one on 10th December you were
24 informing the police that you had not been able to
25 locate child or mother?
31
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
2 MISS HOYAL: Was there any response to those calls?
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, there was not.
4 MISS HOYAL: After the second strategy meeting, when there
5 was a recommendation for a case conference, you have
6 told us that you did not feel able to implement that
7 recommendation because you had not been able to speak to
8 or locate Kouao or Victoria.
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
10 MISS HOYAL: And it would have been apparent to your
11 colleagues and seniors that the case conference had not
12 been sought and none was planned?
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely, yes, very clear.
14 MISS HOYAL: But is it right that at no stage did any of
15 your colleagues or seniors suggest that you go ahead and
16 convene a case conference despite the fact that you had
17 not located Kouao or Victoria?
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: At no stage, no.
19 MISS HOYAL: As far as you are aware was any legal advice
20 taken by your superiors in relation to that?
21 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, there was not.
22 MISS HOYAL: In relation to the categories of emotional
23 abuse and neglect, when you were considering the
24 conclusion of the Section 47 investigation on
25 12th August, the major ground that had been in the
32
1 original referral was the suspicion of non-accidental
2 injury because of the belt buckle mark, correct?
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Old markings, yes.
4 MISS HOYAL: And the concerns of emotional abuse and
5 neglect, albeit matters of serious concern, were not
6 matters that had been substantiated as at 12th August,
7 had they?
8 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
9 MISS HOYAL: In fact you had not even been told by
10 Dr Rossiter or informed by the hospital that there had
11 been a referral to a child psychiatrist at the hospital?
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I had not, no.
13 MISS HOYAL: So by the standards of the court would you
14 agree that there was insignificant evidence of emotional
15 abuse and neglect at that stage?
16 MISS ARTHURWORREY: There was insignificant evidence at that
17 stage.
18 MISS HOYAL: Thank you very much.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed Miss Hoyal.
20 Just one final question from me and that is would
21 you agree with me that in Social Services it is everyday
22 activity to get referrals of all kinds, good, bad, well
23 written, badly written, anonymous, whatever it may be,
24 and it is up to social workers to actually sort it out?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
33
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed.
2 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much Miss Arthurworrey.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to thank you very much for your
4 statement and also for the way in which you have given
5 your evidence. You have been very frank and very clear
6 and been of great assistance to the Inquiry. Thank you.
7 MISS LAWSON: Before Ms Gibson takes the next witness, may
8 I mention one matter in relation to this section which
9 as you know are witnesses concerned with housing
10 matters?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By all means.
12 MISS LAWSON: Sir, during the course of his opening when he
13 was referring to these witnesses, Mr Garnham made some
14 reference to guidance which he said you would have to
15 consider whether or not the actions of the Housing
16 Department were or might have been in breach of. Some
17 time ago now I asked him what guidance he was referring
18 to since we had not been able to track it down and he
19 produced for me, very helpfully, an extract from a draft
20 consultation paper produced in March of 1999.
21 I wrote to him following that on 14th November,
22 asking him what the status of this draft document was,
23 because the latest volume of the Housing Encyclopaedia
24 was still referring to earlier guidance in March 1997,
25 which was considerably less explicit than the document
34
1 that he was proposing to rely on, and inviting him to
2 consider whether or not it was appropriate to look at
3 some draft guidance the status of which was unclear, or
4 whether or not it was only right to look at the guidance
5 that was actually in force and which people in the
6 Housing Department might therefore be reasonably
7 expected to know.
8 Uncharacteristically, and despite the matter
9 becoming more urgent as the Housing witnesses moved up
10 the agenda at the end of last week, and despite
11 reminders from me, he has never come back to me on this.
12 This morning Ms Gibson waves in front of me a whole
13 chapter extracted from this draft guidance, saying he is
14 proposing to ask the people from the Housing Department
15 about it, and no reference has been made at all to the
16 guidance which is actually in force as far as I am
17 aware, and it seems to me that that is not a fair way of
18 dealing with this matter and I would like you to give
19 some indication about how it should be approached.
20 MR GARNHAM: Sir, Miss Lawson rightly informs you that she
21 approached me about this matter. The opening statement
22 I made, which was also made available in written form,
23 included in that written form footnotes which referred
24 to where I had obtained the material I referred to in
25 the oral opening. Miss Lawson indicated that she was
35
1 not aware of that document and nor were those who
2 instructed her and accordingly I have provided her with
3 copies of the passages to which I referred in my opening
4 statement. She informs me that that was not
5 a publication that was known in Haringey and that will
6 have to be a matter that is explored in evidence. I did
7 not understand Miss Lawson ever to say that it was
8 impossible for her to obtain that guidance, the draft of
9 which she has referred to this morning. If that was the
10 case then we could and perhaps should have let her have
11 it earlier but it seems to me, with the greatest respect
12 to Miss Lawson, this is not a matter for submission but
13 a matter for evidence.
14 If those who are now to be called say they were
15 unaware of this guidance, and therefore were not working
16 to it, that is a matter you will have to consider, and
17 whether or not they should have been aware of it is
18 something that will have to be addressed in evidence.
19 With the greatest respect to Miss Lawson, there is
20 absolutely no unfairness in us proceeding to call these
21 witnesses and asking them about a document the existence
22 of which they have known about at least since my
23 opening, and arguably, depending on how the evidence
24 comes out, should have known about before.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Garnham, thank you Miss Lawson.
36
1 I understand the point that you are making.
2 MISS LAWSON: With respect you do not because what
3 Mr Garnham has said is not so. His footnote referred to
4 this as guidance, not as draft guidance, and my point is
5 not in relation to whether or not we could have found
6 out more about the draft but whether or not it is right
7 to criticise people on the basis of a draft when there
8 is actually in force earlier guidance which is still
9 current.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand that and I think for my part
11 I would like to hear the evidence of the witnesses of
12 their knowledge and their experience about this matter.
13 MR GARNHAM: If I may reply to Miss Lawson, the difficulty
14 with her submission is the suggestion that it is for us
15 to make criticisms. It is not. That is to
16 fundamentally misunderstand the role of Counsel to the
17 Inquiry. We suggest possible areas where you may think
18 fit to make criticisms. Whether or not you do will
19 depend on your view of the evidence, not on your view of
20 my opening. In my submission this matter should be
21 allowed to proceed, the witnesses can address it. If
22 the points I have made in my opening are wrong, they can
23 say, "What Mr Garnham says is nonsense" and you sir can
24 be the judge of whether or not that is right.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Precisely and that is why I would like to
37
1 hear the evidence, thank you. Ms Gibson.
2 MS GIBSON: Thank you sir. If I could call Maria Alexandrou
3 to give her evidence.
4 MS MARIA ALEXANDROU (sworn)
5 MS GIBSON: Could you give the Inquiry your full name and
6 professional address please.
7 MS ALEXANDROU: My full name is Maria Alexandrou and my
8 professional address is Haringey Council, Apex House,
9 820 Seven Sisters Road, N15.
10 MS GIBSON: You made a statement for the Inquiry which is
11 found at volume 2, page 24. A copy of that is now being
12 placed before you, if you look at that. You have signed
13 the statement at the end. Can you confirm that the
14 contents of that statement are true?
15 MS ALEXANDROU: Yes I can.
16 MS GIBSON: Are there any additions or amendments that you
17 would wish to make to that statement before you commence
18 your evidence?
19 MS ALEXANDROU: No.
20 MS GIBSON: Thank you very much. It is right that you are
21 a Housing Registration Officer for Haringey and that you
22 were in that post in 1999 when Miss Kouao made an
23 application for housing to Haringey?
24 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.
25 MS GIBSON: And that you started your current job as
38
1 a Housing Registration Officer in 1997?
2 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.
3 MS GIBSON: And your line manager is I think and was at that
4 time Bambos Kakouratos?
5 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.
6 MS GIBSON: Thank you. You deal in your statement with
7 extra training that you have received, including courses
8 on the Housing Act 1996. Did you receive any particular
9 training around issues involving children, child
10 protection issues or issues of children in need?
11 MS ALEXANDROU: No.
12 MS GIBSON: Did you receive any training in relation to
13 obligations under the Children Act on housing
14 authorities?
15 MS ALEXANDROU: No.
16 MS GIBSON: Did you feel during 1999 that you had adequate
17 training to perform your role adequately?
18 MS ALEXANDROU: As a Housing Register Officer, yes. To do
19 with just the housing, no other issues.
20 MS GIBSON: Thank you. I want to ask you a little bit about
21 what guidance you were working to at the time
22 particularly in relation to liaison with Social
23 Services. Were you aware of any guidance in relation to
24 liaison with Social Services and Housing at the time?
25 MS ALEXANDROU: No, the only policy I worked from was from
39
1 the allocation policy, the Housing one.
2 MS GIBSON: I will just show you a book. If I can ask if
3 someone could pass this to the witness. Are you able to
4 identify whether that was or that is the code of
5 guidance with which you are familiar?
6 MS ALEXANDROU: No, it is not.
7 MS GIBSON: I just want to establish that is the case both
8 in 1999 and now.
9 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right, the only policy I have worked
10 from is from the Housing Allocation Policy.
11 MS GIBSON: Thank you. We have in the bundle a copy of the
12 Housing Allocation Policy that was in force from May
13 2000 but was there an earlier policy that you were
14 working from on allocation.
15 MS ALEXANDROU: I think there was. I think that is just an
16 updated version.
17 MS GIBSON: Would that be different in content to the policy
18 you were working with at the time?
19 MS ALEXANDROU: I would not have thought there would be much
20 difference, just a few updates I would have thought.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: I wonder, for the benefit of myself and the
22 Panel could I identify what that document is?
23 MS GIBSON: I think it is volume 47, it is page 71. It is
24 42, not 47.
25 What were you told to do in cases where there were
40
1 aspects involving social services? We know in this case
2 that there was a referral to your department from social
3 services. What guidance did you receive from your
4 managers about what you should do in terms of dealing
5 with such a case?
6 MS ALEXANDROU: At the time I do not recall having any kind
7 of guidance as to what to do with specific cases from
8 social services.
9 MS GIBSON: So there was no question at the time of
10 consideration being given to whether or not there should
11 be any joint investigation by Housing and Social
12 Services when both departments might have been dealing
13 with similar issues?
14 MS ALEXANDROU: I do not recall.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I am terribly sorry, my question was badly
16 phrased. It is that document there that we would like
17 to have identified that you showed to the witness.
18 MS GIBSON: It is not in the bundle.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Could you give us the title of it?
20 MS GIBSON: Yes. The full title I do not have down on my
21 notes.
22 MS ALEXANDROU: "Code of Guidance for Local Authorities of
23 the Allocation of Accommodation and Homelessness, Part 6
24 and 7 of the Housing Act 1996".
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent, thank you very much.
41
1 MS GIBSON: I was asking you, there were no procedures in
2 place for any joint investigations and you were not
3 aware from your experience of any joint investigations
4 when there were housing and social work issues
5 surrounding children?
6 MS ALEXANDROU: Not that I had dealt with at the time, no.
7 MS GIBSON: Can I ask you about the work environment? You
8 say in your statement that you were a well organised
9 team of sufficient size to perform the tasks that you
10 were involved in. You also deal with the fact that you
11 had regular one to one appraisals. Could you assist
12 with how often those appraisals would take place?
13 MS ALEXANDROU: Possibly once a month.
14 MS GIBSON: And what happened in terms of supervision of
15 your case files?
16 MS ALEXANDROU: We would have a meeting with the manager and
17 then discuss any cases that we were concerned about with
18 our manager.
19 MS GIBSON: The system was of you bringing cases that
20 concerned you to the manager rather than the manager
21 routinely reading through case files to check that --
22 MS ALEXANDROU: No, we used to just read through each case,
23 for example we had five cases, we would go through each
24 case one by one and just inform the manager how far,
25 what the progress was with each case.
42
1 MS GIBSON: So each individual case would be discussed with
2 a manager?
3 MS ALEXANDROU: That is right.
4 MS GIBSON: Thank you. You say at the time you do not
5 recall there being any particular problem with backlog
6 of work, but was this not the time when there was quite
7 a large problem with asylum seekers, particularly
8 Kosovan refugees coming to your area and therefore more
9 housing issues to be resolved?
10 MS ALEXANDROU: I do not recall there being a particular bad
11 backlog of work at that time.
12 MS GIBSON: I want to ask you a little about what your role
13 involves as Housing Registration Officer. Is most of
14 your job office based?
15 MS ALEXANDROU: All my job is office based, yes.
16 MS GIBSON: So when it comes to doing home visits that is
17 done by other workers within your team?
18 MS ALEXANDROU: That is correct.
19 MS GIBSON: And how often would you require there to be
20 a home visit on a housing case that you were dealing
21 with? Was that an exceptional course or something that
22 happened quite often?
23 MS ALEXANDROU: What do you mean by how often?
24 MS GIBSON: Was it something that happened routinely or was
25 it something rather unusual?
43
1 MS ALEXANDROU: Once an applicant has reached a threshold of
2 points that there is enough for their case to proceed,
3 we will then pass this case file over for a home visit.
4 So once the client is below a certain number of points
5 we would not pass that for a visit. They would have to
6 have enough points for us to pass their case over.
7 MS GIBSON: Right. And that would be above, I think you
8 describe in this case, above 175 points.
9 MS ALEXANDROU: That is correct.
10 MS GIBSON: In your job description, which appears at
11 volume 16 page 88 -- I do not think there is any
12 particular need to go to that document -- item 5
13 describes part of your role as being to liaise with
14 other housing teams, social services and external
15 agencies. Did you often have cause to liaise with
16 social services?
17 MS ALEXANDROU: I do not ever recall having to liaise with
18 social services at that time.
19 MS GIBSON: We know in this particular case that there was
20 involvement with social services. Were you aware of
21 that involvement?
22 MS ALEXANDROU: I cannot recall at the time.
23 MS GIBSON: We will perhaps come to that in a little more
24 detail but essentially what you are saying to the
25 Inquiry is it was not at all routine for you to deal
44
1 with social services?
2 MS ALEXANDROU: It was not, no.
3 MS GIBSON: So you did not have cases where there were
4 social workers involved who would be phoning you up and
5 asking you where the case was in the housing list, what
6 was happening?
7 MS ALEXANDROU: I cannot recall about telephone
8 conversations.
9 MS GIBSON: I am not asking you about specific cases but
10 just generally what your experience was at this point.
11 MS ALEXANDROU: I do not ever recall having a lot of
12 dealings with social services at that time, that is all
13 I can recall.
14 MS GIBSON: Did other people in your office as far as you
15 were aware deal routinely with social services
16 enquiries?
17 MS ALEXANDROU: Are you talking about now or before?
18 MS GIBSON: I am talking about before, in 1999.
19 MS ALEXANDROU: I think it was the same for everybody at the
20 time. I cannot answer for my colleagues, I do not know.
21 MS GIBSON: Can you help with what if any procedures were in
22 place concerning referral to social services from
23 Housing? If you saw a family that you were dealing with
24 in relation to housing, and you had concerns perhaps
25 about child protection issues, what procedures were in
45
1 place to institute a referral to social services?
2 MS ALEXANDROU: I have never actually received any kind of
3 training so I am not sure what procedures we would have
4 had to follow. I would have had to discuss that with
5 a manager.
6 MS GIBSON: Were you given any sort of guidance about what
7 you should do? Were you instructed to refer to
8 a manager or would that just have been up to you as an
9 individual to take that initiative?
10 MS ALEXANDROU: I would have thought that it is something
11 you would need to discuss with a manager at the time.
12 MS GIBSON: Would you often see applicants in your office
13 with children coming in to discuss housing issues?
14 MS ALEXANDROU: We did have clients coming in. You get
15 single people, families coming in. We mainly had a duty
16 line service over a duty phone that clients mainly
17 phoned in. We do not usually tend to go downstairs for
18 enquiries. We have a duty phone for that.
19 MS GIBSON: So would you actually in your role have much
20 actual face to face contact with clients or would that
21 be more in relation to visiting officers like Karen
22 McGregor who we are going to hear from later?
23 MS ALEXANDROU: Clients may come into the office and we may
24 collect documents from them but nothing would be
25 discussed in detail over the counter.
46
1 MS GIBSON: I want to turn now to your involvement in
2 Victoria's case. You mentioned that on the file the
3 surname Kouao is misspelled as K-O-V-A-O, I think not
4 throughout but there is a misspelling that appears.
5 What would the consequences of that be in terms of
6 tracing this case if there are misspellings?
7 MS ALEXANDROU: When we do a search on the computer for
8 a client we do not necessarily put the whole surname.
9 We will actually do other searches, the first few
10 letters of the name, date of birth, an address; we will
11 do a number of searches to find the client on the
12 computer.
13 MS GIBSON: So the misspelling here, whereas the spelling is
14 supposed to be K-O-U-A-O, where it is spelt that way in
15 some places in the file, would you be able to pick it up
16 by searching under K-O-V-A-O or part of that?
17 MS ALEXANDROU: We could always do a search under the date
18 of birth or even the address or another member of the
19 household.
20 MS GIBSON: Do files ever get mislaid in the office? Is it
21 ever difficult to trace files because of misspellings?
22 MS ALEXANDROU: Not, no, not due to misspellings. We do
23 always eventually locate files. Like I said there are
24 other means of doing a search on a person.
25 MS GIBSON: I just want to take you now to the housing file
47
1 which appears at volume 6, page 16. You have that
2 there. That is a copy of the Housing Registration Form
3 which I know that you did not actually -- you had
4 dealings with that form later on but the form was
5 received in the office on 19th July and it seems that
6 the form bears the same date as the date stamp for the
7 office. From that would it seem to you that that form
8 would have been filled in at the office?
9 MS ALEXANDROU: It may have been, I do not know where the
10 form was filled in. All I can see is it was received
11 through Haringey on the same date it was completed, but
12 where it was completed I do not know.
13 MS GIBSON: Are forms such as this ever filled in in the
14 office with the help of a Housing Registration Officer
15 such as yourself?
16 MS ALEXANDROU: The One Stop Shop in our building actually
17 provides a service to assist clients filling in the form
18 but occasionally we have gone down to assist clients
19 with completing forms.
20 MS GIBSON: And if that form had come from the One Stop Shop
21 would there be any indication of that on the face of the
22 document?
23 MS ALEXANDROU: No.
24 MS GIBSON: In terms of the handwriting on the document,
25 I do not know whether you can assist as to whether that
48
1 is handwriting that you recognise as being handwriting
2 of a member of your office?
3 MS ALEXANDROU: No, I do not know.
4 MS GIBSON: Thank you. At page 17 in that bundle we see
5 there that there is a box filled in with a number of
6 points. Is that the box that you would have filled in
7 after reviewing this form?
8 MS ALEXANDROU: Once I assessed the form, yes, that is the
9 points we would have put in there.
10 MS GIBSON: Then, going over the page, in that particular
11 form it has been filled in that the applicant
12 understands spoken English but does not understand
13 written English very well. Can I ask you about what
14 procedures you have in place to ensure that
15 communication is clear with an applicant of that nature?
16 MS ALEXANDROU: At the home visit stage if an interpreter
17 was needed the home visitor would have arranged for an
18 interpreter.
19 MS GIBSON: But that is in terms of an oral interview.
20 I just wondered if there is anything in place to ensure
21 when written communications -- and we know in this case
22 that a number of letters were sent out to this client --
23 if there is anything to ensure that communication is
24 made clear with someone for whom English is not the
25 first language and may have problems with reading
49
1 English.
2 MS ALEXANDROU: We do have a translation unit that could be
3 used to send out letters in their own language.
4 MS GIBSON: But again we are aware here that you know from
5 the form that this woman is from France but the
6 communications go to her in English and I just wonder
7 how you determine in a particular case whether there is
8 a need for letters to be translated.
9 MS ALEXANDROU: We do not necessarily always look at the
10 form in such detail. I mean if a form was filled in in
11 English we would also assume that they already have help
12 with the form, so we would assume that they had had help
13 reading any letters that were sent to them.
14 MS GIBSON: But it may be the case that the person who has
15 helped with the form is no longer available to that
16 person. It may also be the case that that form has been
17 filled in with the help of one of your officers in the
18 One Stop Shop who might not be readily available.
19 I just wondered if, when you know you are dealing with
20 someone who has trouble with written English, if you
21 have any system either by making sure they are invited
22 into the office or going to see them to make sure they
23 understand letters.
24 MS ALEXANDROU: Usually clients come into the office and if
25 there is a language difficulty it is really known at
50
1 that point and then we would make any other necessary
2 arrangements to assist them with their language
3 difficulties. Normally clients have minimal English
4 which is still enough for us to have communication with
5 them.
6 MS GIBSON: At page 26, and again perhaps we can turn to
7 that, the applicant describes the reason for leaving the
8 flat at 267 Somerset Gardens as because she needs
9 a larger property and because she is being asked to
10 leave by the people she was staying with. What did that
11 indicate to you about this application and the issue of
12 homelessness?
13 MS ALEXANDROU: Sorry, can you repeat the question?
14 MS GIBSON: What did that indicate to you, in particular
15 about the issue of potential homelessness for this
16 family?
17 MS ALEXANDROU: We have many clients who tick the same box
18 saying they are being asked to leave. It is not
19 always -- it does not always mean they have to leave
20 immediately. A lot of the people can actually stay
21 there for quite a while. It is just they then need
22 alternative housing.
23 MS GIBSON: But the position is that from that form, as far
24 as the Housing Department is aware, it is unclear when
25 this woman and her child are going to be asked to leave
|
