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Archived Transcript for 23 November 2001: Pages
51 to 100
51
1 correct an inaccuracy in a letter, but here is a child
2 protection adviser writing to the consultant saying,
3 "Although Lisa had not previously seen the discharge
4 summary, we were able to address all of the concerns
5 raised." If what you say is true, that is a lie.
6 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I had no idea that the information in
7 the discharge summary would be different. I had no idea
8 that the discharge summary would contain information
9 that I did not already have.
10 MR GARNHAM: In addition you must when you read that letter
11 have been very concerned about Victoria, must you not?
12 There is reference here to marks made with looped wire.
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I saw the reference to looped wire as
14 another prediagnosis concern. I knew that there had
15 been a number of prediagnosis issues, for example
16 Dr Rossiter had made mention to thumb marks, there had
17 been mention of a belt buckle mark. I saw the reference
18 to the loop wire as another one of these prediagnosis
19 concerns which did not really bother me because I knew
20 that Victoria had been seen by two hospitals. The one
21 thing that was reassuring from this letter from
22 Petra Kitchman was the fact that she says on her second
23 page: "I enclose a copy of the notes from the Central
24 Middlesex Hospital for your information", and again
25 I felt that the Central Middlesex Hospital notes were
52
1 the crucial link and I was happy that Petra had sent
2 Dr Rossiter a copy of those notes.
3 MR GARNHAM: I do not understand that. The references to
4 looped wire marks cannot possibly have been
5 a predischarge concern, can they, because they are being
6 raised by the consultant weeks after Victoria was
7 discharged. They cannot have been prediagnosis concerns
8 because they were being raised by the consultant at the
9 NMH, the second of the two hospitals, some time after
10 Victoria was discharged?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: But if Dr Rossiter had concerns about
12 looped wire I would have expected that concern to
13 (i)~have been in the medical report that I was sent, and
14 (ii) for her to have made mention of the looped wire in
15 her conversation with me, and also (iii) the looped wire
16 marks should have been mentioned in the initial
17 referral. It was not.
18 MR GARNHAM: It was self-evident that all those things had
19 not happened on your view of events because here you
20 were getting a letter from a doctor dated two weeks
21 after Victoria was discharged or a bit less, a week or
22 two after Victoria was discharged, evidently raising
23 concerns about a looped wire mark, so it does not matter
24 what had been your understanding before. Here you were
25 being told that the consultant in charge was concerned
53
1 about something that you had not previously been
2 informed about. You cannot dismiss that as predischarge
3 concern because it is post discharge concern.
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: But it should have been predischarge.
5 MR GARNHAM: Well that begs the question, does it not, that
6 begs the question whether or not the hospital had done
7 its job properly. Here you were being informed
8 apparently that the hospital had not.
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: All I can say is that I did speak to my
10 manager with regard to the visit from Petra Kitchman.
11 I told Carole Baptiste that Dr Rossiter had expressed
12 concern. I said that -- and I knew that I had not
13 updated her after the initial Section 47 investigation.
14 Carole Baptiste's response to me was, "Dr Rossiter, she
15 always gets it wrong. She got it wrong in a child death
16 inquiry, in a child death case that I was working on,
17 Baby W1."
18 MR GARNHAM: I will come back to what Baptiste said about
19 it. But it is right is it not that you do not simply
20 delegate your responsibilities on this case to your
21 manager, your manager is there to check and advise and
22 supervise but the primary responsibility is yours?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: The primary responsibility is mine. My
24 understanding was that Dr Rossiter during her telephone
25 call with me had expressed concerns regarding old marks
54
1 which she did not know whether they were caused by
2 scabies or an infection from the scabies.
3 MR GARNHAM: Absolutely, and now she is writing a letter
4 that has brought to your attention after that raising
5 a concern that self-evidently she was not satisfied
6 about, or she would not be raising it.
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is why she needed to see the notes
8 from the Central Middlesex.
9 MR GARNHAM: How could they help? They predated the
10 admission to the NMH.
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: But the NMH were concerned with old
12 marks.
13 MR GARNHAM: But how did you know that that meant that they
14 could be explained by the CMH notes?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Well I expected a response from
16 Dr Rossiter or Petra Kitchman. I did not consider that
17 I needed to take any steps. Petra had informed me that
18 this letter was for my information purposes. As
19 Dr Rossiter had expressed concern, I expected if she was
20 not happy to come back to me or Petra.
21 MR GARNHAM: This is Dr Rossiter coming back to Haringey.
22 This is Dr Rossiter saying, "I am extremely concerned
23 about this child," and this is Dr Rossiter pointing out
24 one mark in particular, the looped wire mark on
25 Victoria's body which she cannot, she, Rossiter, cannot
55
1 have been satisfied about or she would not be raising
2 it.
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Like I said, Dr Rossiter was concerned
4 with the old markings. I knew that there had been
5 reference to a belt buckle mark and nothing had come of
6 that. I knew that there was reference to two thumb
7 marks and there was nothing regarding the thumb marks in
8 the medical information that I received. I was
9 confident that I spoke to Dr Rossiter and I was
10 confident that the note that I took from that telephone
11 call on 3rd August was accurate and correct. Therefore,
12 when Dr Rossiter expressed these enormous concerns,
13 I thought that the concerns were around the fact that
14 I had not updated Dr Rossiter regarding the Section 47
15 investigation. I had no indication that the information
16 contained in the discharge summary would be different.
17 MR GARNHAM: Yes you did. You had an indication when you
18 read this letter on 15th November that there was talk
19 about this child having been marked with a looped wire.
20 That should have set alarm bells ringing in your mind
21 that you had misunderstood the position of this child in
22 the view of the hospital.
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: But I had spoken to Dr Rossiter.
24 MR GARNHAM: But not since you had received this letter.
25 That was before. How could you assume that Dr Rossiter
56
1 had this in mind when you had your conversation with
2 her? She was writing to you telling you the opposite.
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Well she was writing to Petra Kitchman.
4 MR GARNHAM: Yes, but you saw it and you were being told
5 that the assumption you had made previously was not
6 right, that they were still bothered about this
7 particular mark.
8 MISS ARTHURWORREY: As I have said before I saw the
9 reference to looped wire as another prediagnosis
10 concern. That was my thinking at the time.
11 MR GARNHAM: I have to suggest to you that you simply did
12 not apply your mind to this point at all.
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: To the looped wire?
14 MR GARNHAM: Yes.
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: With the benefit of hindsight perhaps
16 I did not and that was a mistake. I am sorry.
17 MR GARNHAM: You did go and see Baptiste about this, you
18 told us.
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did.
20 MR GARNHAM: But you had presumably already formed the view
21 that there was nothing new in the Kitchman letter that
22 needed to worry her?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: Then you tell us that when you mentioned this
25 matter to her she made this remark about Dr Rossiter.
57
1 Will you tell us that remark again please?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Carole Baptiste's response was, "Oh,
3 Dr Rossiter, she always gets it wrong, she got it wrong
4 in a child death that I was working on, Baby W1".
5 MR GARNHAM: Dr Rossiter said in evidence, and for your note
6 it is Day 21, page 77, line 1, that some social
7 workers -- I think she said, "Some black social workers
8 at Haringey think they know more about black children
9 than I do, the consultant paediatrician." Was that your
10 experience?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I had never met or worked with
12 Dr Rossiter professionally before. The only time I --
13 I was first introduced to Dr Rossiter when I attended
14 the five-day Working Together course in May. I knew
15 that Dr Rossiter was the senior consultant
16 paediatrician. I also knew that she was highly regarded
17 in Haringey and that was my only perception of her.
18 I had no idea about the problems with other black social
19 workers.
20 MR GARNHAM: You had never heard the suggestion before this
21 occasion with Baptiste that some social workers took the
22 view that Rossiter was not up to speed when it came to
23 dealing with black families?
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did not know that at all.
25 MR GARNHAM: You say that the observation that Baptiste made
58
1 might have made you less worried about Rossiter's
2 concerns as conveyed to you by Petra Kitchman than you
3 otherwise would have been?
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: With the benefit of hindsight, yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: I thought you were talking then
6 contemporaneously. I thought you were saying, "In the
7 light of what Baptiste said, I was even less worried".
8 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I was, yes.
9 MR GARNHAM: Given what you have said about Baptiste and how
10 you have described the inadequacies of her supervision
11 of you, one might have expected the opposite reaction.
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Not really. Carole Baptiste was a team
13 manager. She had been a team manager, she had worked in
14 Haringey for a number of years. Her practice was
15 accepted practice, so I was more horrified that she had
16 been involved in a child death as opposed to that
17 comment that she made, the fact that she had been
18 involved in a child death, I was completely mortified
19 and I did not know how to record that conversation in my
20 notes.
21 MR GARNHAM: Sir, I notice the time. I wonder if that would
22 be a convenient moment for a short break.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed, that is
24 thoughtful of you. We will get back at 11 o'clock and
25 you will remember the rules.
59
1 (10.50 am)
2 (A short break)
3 (11.00 am)
4 MR GARNHAM: We had been dealing with the relationship you
5 had with Petra Kitchman. There is going to be some
6 matters that Miss Kitchman raises in her statement that
7 I want to ask you about, but I am going to trace the
8 story through a little further before I come back to
9 that. I want first of all to ask you about the second
10 home visit on 28th October. This was your second trip
11 to 267 Somerset Gardens.
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
13 MR GARNHAM: You make your notes on it and we find those at
14 page 153 in volume 6. Is that right?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
16 MR GARNHAM: What was the purpose of this meeting?
17 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It was as Carole Baptiste stated in her
18 supervision on 20th September, to chase up the housing
19 situation. The focus of that visit was Victoria's
20 long-term needs.
21 MR GARNHAM: And the first point was going to be your
22 informing them of the unsuccessful housing application?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: To my recollection, Kouao had already
24 been informed of the unsuccessful housing application.
25 I was told that Housing had contacted her.
60
1 MR GARNHAM: So it was your first point was to discuss that
2 with her?
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
4 MR GARNHAM: When was she informed of the visit? Was it
5 planned?
6 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I believe I phoned her the day I phoned
7 Housing. It was planned, yes.
8 MR GARNHAM: So it was an announced visit?
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It was an announced visit, yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: And an unannounced visit was not in your mind
11 because of the way you were approaching this case as
12 a whole?
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
14 MR GARNHAM: It might have been a sensible thing if you had
15 thought that child protection concerns were still live,
16 might it not?
17 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Definitely, yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: What preparation did you do for this meeting?
19 Anything, or was it routine?
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It was very routine, a very
21 business-type meeting.
22 MR GARNHAM: Present were Victoria, Kouao, Manning and you?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
24 MR GARNHAM: The option available to Kouao appeared to be
25 unaltered from the last time you saw them.
61
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is right and I had -- she informed
2 me in that visit that she had not been successful in
3 finding employment.
4 MR GARNHAM: Can we check what the options were?
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Sure.
6 MR GARNHAM: That they were really get a job and find
7 a flat, option 1; option 2, remain as we are; option 3,
8 go back to France?
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Yes, and what I was telling Kouao at
10 that visit was that she needed to make a decision soon
11 because Victoria had not had any stability since coming
12 to this country in March and furthermore she had not
13 been in school and that was the point that I was
14 emphasising to Kouao.
15 MR GARNHAM: Did you look to see whether there were any ways
16 you might assist Kouao in getting advice about
17 employment?
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: During my home visit on 16th August
19 Kouao had informed me that she had worked as a nurse
20 previously and that she was looking for care assistant
21 work. Now, I know that Community Care social work
22 magazine has care agencies and so I had agreed to send
23 her a copy of Community Care during that visit on the
24 16th to help and assist with her finding employment.
25 MR GARNHAM: The third of the three options appeared to you
62
1 to be what Kouao was most favouring, return to France?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: At that time, Kouao informed me that she
3 had already contacted friends and family in France.
4 MR GARNHAM: With a view to getting the cash?
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: With a view to getting the cash because
6 I was saying to her, "If money is the problem the
7 department will pay for the trip back home to France but
8 I need to know as soon as possible because Victoria has
9 not been in school, she has not had any stability".
10 MR GARNHAM: You said that to her, did you?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I said that to her very clearly. That
12 was the focus of that meeting and I even said to
13 Carl Manning if he were any kind of a friend he would
14 encourage Kouao to go back to France and start again
15 because obviously this time things had not worked out as
16 she had expected.
17 MR GARNHAM: I am sure it is me having missed it but I do
18 not recall seeing a reference in the notes or your
19 statement to your saying that the department would fund
20 the return to France.
21 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I definitely said that during.
22 MR GARNHAM: Is it in your notes or statement?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I do not believe -- I do not know.
24 MR GARNHAM: I expect somebody will point it out to me if it
25 is. 06.153. I am grateful for the help. I cannot
63
1 immediately see it.
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Yes, point 3, to return to France.
3 MR GARNHAM: "Informed department could assist financially
4 if there were difficulties."
5 Thank you very much. Did you know that a similar
6 offer had been made by Brent?
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I had no idea.
8 MR GARNHAM: Did you know that Kouao had been in contact
9 with Brent?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I had no idea.
11 MR GARNHAM: You told us yesterday that if you had read the
12 CMH documentation you would have known of that and made
13 the link with Brent Social Services.
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I knew that, yes.
15 MR GARNHAM: And in fact I think you told us yesterday that
16 since you had seen the letter that we have in volume 6
17 at page 290, that you knew that other social workers
18 were involved, or had been involved I should say.
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I knew that the Central Middlesex
20 Hospital had been involved.
21 MR GARNHAM: And had written to a duty social worker?
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Right, but it was quite obvious from
23 that letter and from my contact with Kouao that the
24 housing situation had not been resolved.
25 MR GARNHAM: No, but if you had looked through the CMH
64
1 documents you would have seen reference to the social
2 worker's name, would you not?
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I would have done, yes.
4 MR GARNHAM: Even this letter that you did read indicated
5 that there had been a duty social worker involved
6 because it is addressed to the duty social worker.
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
8 MR GARNHAM: But you did not chase up what that duty social
9 worker knew?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: At the time I overlooked doing that.
11 I did not think to do that.
12 MR GARNHAM: You were told during this meeting I think that
13 Kouao intended to register Victoria with the Bruce Grove
14 Primary School.
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: She made that point because I was
16 hammering on about the education and she said -- and
17 I said to her a decision has to be made quickly because
18 Victoria has not been in school. Kouao's response to
19 that was, "Well I was going to, I am going to register
20 Victoria at the Bruce Grove Primary School until the
21 funds arrive".
22 MR GARNHAM: By this time it must have been about half term.
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I believe so, yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: So she would have missed the first half of that
25 term. She had not in fact been in school at all since
65
1 they arrived in the spring.
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
3 MR GARNHAM: You must have been getting very worried about
4 that.
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: From a child protection point of view
6 I was not overly concerned that Victoria was not in
7 school because she was a foreign child in a foreign
8 country, of no fixed abode and living in temporary
9 accommodation. However, one very important lesson that
10 I have learned from handling Victoria's case is that
11 whenever a child is not attending school I should
12 immediately inform the Education and Welfare Department
13 regardless of what the child's circumstances are.
14 MR GARNHAM: And regardless of whether or not there are
15 child protection concerns?
16 MISS ARTHURWORREY: And regardless, yes.
17 MR GARNHAM: I mean there are several obvious benefits of
18 that, are there not? First of all, it means the child
19 gets educated, which is important.
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely.
21 MR GARNHAM: And a legal requirement.
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely.
23 MR GARNHAM: Secondly, it means that there are additional
24 eyes and ears looking at and listening to this child in
25 case there was any trouble.
66
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely.
2 MR GARNHAM: And finally the absence of schooling said
3 something to you about Kouao's mothering skills.
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: If I had thought that Kouao was
5 deliberately trying to avoid schooling for Victoria
6 I would have been very worried. I just thought that
7 because of her circumstances -- my understanding was
8 that if she found permanent accommodation Victoria could
9 then be enrolled in a school near her home and then she
10 could then be involved, be registered with a GP near her
11 home.
12 MR GARNHAM: It does not matter though whether or not it is
13 deliberate, does it?
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I just thought the family were
15 struggling. I thought Kouao was a respectful mother who
16 was child focused. She gave me that impression.
17 MR GARNHAM: Yes, but the child was not in school and you
18 knew it. It not matter whether there was a deliberate
19 intention to deprive the child of education or just
20 incompetence.
21 MISS ARTHURWORREY: As I said, my thinking at the time was
22 that I was not overly concerned that Victoria had not
23 attended school because she was a foreign child in
24 a foreign country of no fixed abode and living in
25 temporary accommodation.
67
1 MR GARNHAM: Despite all that you should have been concerned
2 that this child was not getting an education and had not
3 been for six months?
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: At the time I was not concerned.
5 MR GARNHAM: But you should have been with any child?
6 MISS ARTHURWORREY: As I have said, this is something that
7 I have learned.
8 MR GARNHAM: So you agree with me that you should have been
9 concerned about the absence of education?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I should have been.
11 MR GARNHAM: Did you offer to help get Kouao to get Victoria
12 a place, you know, to ring the school perhaps?
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Bruce Grove Primary School was just
14 around the corner from Somerset Gardens and from the
15 discussions I had had with her she had obviously begun
16 to make some enquiries because she raised Bruce Grove to
17 me.
18 MR GARNHAM: But she was at best useless in that it had not
19 happened so far and she had not got her child into
20 school, so would not you as a competent social worker
21 have said, "Would you like me to ring them for you"?
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: But again before the home -- before the
23 28th October we had been waiting on a decision from the
24 Housing and then --
25 MR GARNHAM: You do not need that to phone up the school and
68
1 get a place for Victoria, do you?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Well, a child needs to attend school in
3 the locality that they are living.
4 MR GARNHAM: Yes, but for the past four or five months she
5 had been living in Somerset Gardens and there was no
6 immediate alternative address, was there?
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: But I was of the view that that
8 accommodation was not suitable for Victoria's needs.
9 MR GARNHAM: Yes. You say that Kouao became agitated about
10 the news of her housing application when you discussed
11 that with her.
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Kouao appeared to be agitated with the
13 outcome of the housing application, yes. She could not
14 understand why social services could not help in finding
15 a house.
16 MR GARNHAM: And you say that your general impression was
17 that the home appeared normal?
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I now realise that Victoria was
19 subjected to horrific abuse at that time. I would like
20 to point out that any abuse that Victoria was suffering
21 was completely concealed from me and I had no idea.
22 MR GARNHAM: No evidence of soiling in the house?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: There was no evidence of soiling. I did
24 not smell bleach. I did not smell urine. There was no
25 evidence at all.
69
1 MR GARNHAM: No signs of physical abuse on Victoria as far
2 as you could see?
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: There was no signs of physical abuse.
4 In fact, Victoria appeared -- she did not present as
5 a frightful, fearful child; she presented as articulate,
6 she presented as confident. Before I left that visit
7 I remember Victoria being sat on the floor. When we
8 were discussing the housing and I was discussing her
9 schooling she ran to Kouao's side and pointed her finger
10 aggressively at me and she said, "You do not respect me,
11 you do not respect my mother, why can you not find us
12 a home?"
13 MR GARNHAM: I was going to ask you about that because
14 although you say all was normal during the course of
15 this visit, that was not a normal reaction from a seven
16 year old -- I think she was a few days off being eight,
17 but a seven year old at the time, was it?
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That was not normal and I was concerned
19 with that outburst and I did make a note of it and I did
20 go back to the office and I did discuss that outburst
21 with my manager Carole Baptiste.
22 MR GARNHAM: The thing about that outburst was it had
23 a rather adult flavour, did it not?
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely.
25 MR GARNHAM: Suggestive of coaching, words being put into
70
1 Victoria's mouth?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: My thinking at the time was that
3 Victoria, Kouao and Manning all shared one room. I knew
4 that housing was the express need of Kouao and I knew
5 that because of the living arrangements Victoria would
6 have known that housing was an important issue on
7 Kouao's mind and would have overheard any conversations
8 about the housing.
9 MR GARNHAM: Did it occur to you that Victoria might be
10 frightened of Kouao's reaction to this news?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, it did not.
12 MR GARNHAM: And that that was why she was pleading with
13 you?
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, it did not. I mean I just found
15 that statement quite baffling and I came back and
16 discussed it with my manager.
17 MR GARNHAM: How were you seeking to promote Victoria's best
18 interests during the course of that visit?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: On the 28th October Victoria's best
20 interests was seen by her returning to France because
21 that is where Kouao had employment, that is where Kouao
22 had friends and families.
23 MR GARNHAM: And in the meantime?
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Well that is what I was saying to her,
25 she needed to make a decision and I was to go back in
71
1 a week's time to see what arrangements had been put in
2 place and I expected that they would go back it France
3 because she told me she was going back to France.
4 MR GARNHAM: But in the meantime what were you doing to
5 promote her best interests? What were you doing to
6 improve Victoria's situation for whatever period
7 remained for her in England?
8 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I was giving Kouao advice and assistance
9 under Section 17.
10 MR GARNHAM: What about Victoria?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: In social services we work on the basis
12 that as adults we are responsible for our own needs but
13 in this case I felt that Kouao needed help in order to
14 promote Victoria's needs.
15 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. It was I think a matter of chance
16 that you happened to answer the telephone to Kouao on
17 1st November.
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It was a matter of chance, yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: You were on Duty and so you would not normally
20 be answering your ordinary office phone?
21 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
22 MR GARNHAM: Kouao was in a state and alleged that Manning
23 had sexually abused her.
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Kouao was shouting and screaming.
25 I could not really understand what she was saying but
72
1 I did hear the words "Carl Manning" and I did hear the
2 words "sexual abuse", yes.
3 MR GARNHAM: You then spoke to Rose Kozinos.
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I spoke to Rose Kozinos because she was
5 the Duty Senior, yes.
6 MR GARNHAM: You phoned Kouao and told her to come into the
7 office?
8 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That was on Rose Kozinos' advice, yes.
9 MR GARNHAM: Why did you feel you needed to speak to Kozinos
10 before dealing with this?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Because I was on Duty that week. We
12 have -- there was a policy that Duty is priority and we
13 need permission to deal with -- we are not supposed to
14 deal with our own allocated cases unless there is
15 a crisis but I needed to inform Rose Kozinos that I had
16 a crisis on one of my cases, gave her the details and
17 asked from her advice as to what I should do.
18 MR GARNHAM: I can see why you needed to inform her because
19 of those arrangements you have described but did you
20 need her advice in dealing with a sex abuse allegation?
21 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Of course I did, I needed advice from
22 a manager, yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: Is that because you did not feel confident
24 about dealing with it on your own?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I just needed -- I do not work
73
1 autonomously. I take directions from my managers.
2 MR GARNHAM: Yes, I can see that, but you have the training
3 and the skills and the experience to manage this sort of
4 case on your own, do you not?
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I had never had any training in --
6 specific training in sexual abuse, no, at that time.
7 MR GARNHAM: Does that mean you did not feel able to deal
8 with this allegation?
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did not know what the allegation was
10 at that point. I just needed to tell Rose Kozinos that
11 I had a crisis on my case and how shall I deal with it.
12 MR GARNHAM: Given what was being said in that garbled phone
13 call from Kouao, why did you not immediately involve the
14 police then and there?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Because I was not advised to by
16 Rose Kozinos.
17 MR GARNHAM: But exercising your own judgment, why did you
18 not involve the police?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did not.
20 MR GARNHAM: You refer repeatedly to relying on the advice
21 of managers but you were a trained, skilled social
22 worker. You are not an office message carrier. You do
23 not simply act as the mouthpiece for your managers, do
24 you?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: But I take directions from my managers
74
1 and the Police Child Protection Team were informed on
2 the 1st November after I had got specific details of the
3 allegations.
4 MR GARNHAM: What I am wanting to know is why, when you were
5 told of allegations of apparently serious sexual abuse,
6 you did not immediately ring Police Constable Jones or
7 somebody else in the Police Child Protection Team and
8 inform them of this allegation of crime.
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: But I did not know what the actual
10 allegation was. As I said I could not really understand
11 what Kouao was saying. She needed to come to the office
12 and make a specific referral. I needed to get specific
13 details before I then referred that on to the police.
14 That was my thinking at the time.
15 MR GARNHAM: Why you did you not immediately arrange
16 a medical examination for Victoria?
17 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Again, I sought advice from a manager
18 with regard to how I should deal with this and I acted
19 on that manager's advice.
20 MR GARNHAM: You do sound as if you are doing no more than
21 acting as the mouthpiece for the manager.
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I do not believe I was, no.
23 MR GARNHAM: Where was the independent judgment that you
24 were exercising in relation to what had happened?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Are you talking about after they came
75
1 into the office?
2 MR GARNHAM: No I am talking about before they came into the
3 office.
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, because I did not know what the
5 allegations were. Like I said, Kouao was screaming, she
6 was shouting, she was talking in a mixture of French and
7 English. It was very difficult to understand what she
8 was saying.
9 MR GARNHAM: 20 minutes later they turn up, Kouao, Manning
10 and Victoria?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I believe so, although I might have got
12 the times wrong because I have been looking through the
13 file and I realised that I had arranged an
14 appointment -- well I had arranged the interpreter to
15 attend our offices at quarter to 12.
16 MR GARNHAM: What time was the phone call?
17 MISS ARTHURWORREY: The phone call arrived after the Duty
18 meeting. The Duty meeting takes place from 9 o'clock to
19 9.30. It was after the Duty meeting that I went
20 upstairs to my desk to get a drink and my phone was
21 ringing. Ordinarily I would not have answered it.
22 I believe the phone call came about 9.45. I believe
23 that the interpreter was arranged for 10.45.
24 MR GARNHAM: And what time did the three of them turn up?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: They turned up, I think, because I had
76
1 to phone Kouao back after I spoke to Rose Kozinos and
2 invited her and Victoria into the office.
3 MR GARNHAM: What time did they turn up?
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It was shortly after that.
5 MR GARNHAM: Not surprisingly you were shocked by the fact
6 that Manning was there?
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely.
8 MR GARNHAM: And you asked Rose Kozinos to come and see that
9 had happened?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: What actually happened was I walked out
11 of the Duty room with Valerie Robinson the second social
12 worker. I did not even get into the reception area
13 because there is a glass window and I was able to see at
14 the back of the reception area Victoria, who was sat on
15 the end with her back to Kouao, watching other children
16 play in the wendy house. She was swinging her legs.
17 I then saw Kouao who was sat next to Victoria and
18 Manning was sat next to Kouao and Manning and Kouao were
19 having what appeared to be a normal conversation. I was
20 extremely shocked by that, given Kouao's demeanour
21 earlier on. So I immediately went to Rose Kozinos and
22 asked her to come and have a look at the situation.
23 MR GARNHAM: She did and she told you to ask Manning to
24 leave.
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
77
1 MR GARNHAM: She says, and for the note it is paragraph 18
2 of her statement, that she also told you firstly to
3 carry out a risk assessment and secondly to interview
4 the mother and the child on her own, is the expression
5 that Ms Kozinos uses. Did you have instructions of that
6 sort?
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Rose Kozinos asked me to ask Manning to
8 leave, which is what I did.
9 MR GARNHAM: Carry out a risk assessment?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, she did not ask me to carry out
11 a risk assessment, she asked me to take the details of
12 the allegations.
13 MR GARNHAM: Did she ask you to interview mother and child
14 on your own?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I do not remember those specific
16 instructions.
17 MR GARNHAM: Did she ask you to interview mother and child
18 separately, mother then child?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: My remit from Rose Kozinos was to get
20 details of the allegation. And the fact that I spoke to
21 Victoria on that day was mainly because I wanted to see
22 how she was, because of the graphic nature of the
23 allegations that Kouao was making, and Kouao was very
24 insistent that I spoke to Victoria.
25 MR GARNHAM: Even over the phone in the garbled phone call
78
1 the allegations were graphic, were they?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, they were not.
3 MR GARNHAM: Because I thought at the stage you are
4 describing we had not yet got to you talking to them, to
5 Kouao.
6 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I spoke to Kouao as soon as I had asked
7 Manning to leave, so that was almost immediately.
8 MR GARNHAM: So before you begin the interview, which was
9 attended I think also by Valerie Robertson -- is it
10 Roberts or Robertson?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Robertson.
12 MR GARNHAM: The notes of that are at volume 6.147. Is that
13 right?
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
15 MR GARNHAM: Three allegations of sexual abuse of Victoria,
16 one in July, one in August and one the previous day.
17 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
18 MR GARNHAM: What was your reaction to those revelations?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I was extremely concerned. I was
20 concerned first of all because Kouao -- the graphic
21 details of those allegations and the fact that the
22 department had been involved with Kouao and Victoria
23 since July.
24 MR GARNHAM: And in particular you had been involved.
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: And I had been involved and there had
79
1 been no mention of these allegations and I actually said
2 to Kouao that I have got considerable concern about her
3 ability to protect Victoria because she should have
4 informed the department and I asked her, "What did you
5 do when these disclosures were made?"
6 MR GARNHAM: There are two discrete points here, are there
7 not? First of all there is the fact that if this were
8 true, why had you not been told in any of your previous
9 contacts with Kouao?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
11 MR GARNHAM: Secondly, if these were true, how was Kouao
12 managing to protect and look after Victoria?
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
14 MR GARNHAM: She told you that she had accepted Manning's
15 explanation for the first two but that in the light of
16 the third, the previous day, she had re-examined her
17 conclusions about the earlier two incidents.
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: The third incident had actually happened
19 that morning. Kouao informed me that Victoria was
20 having a bath and Manning walked into the bathroom naked
21 and it was on that basis and it happened that morning.
22 MR GARNHAM: I see, that is my mistake. But it was in the
23 light of that very recent event that she had looked back
24 on her conclusions on the previous two and started to
25 wonder whether they were wrong.
80
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is what she informed me, yes.
2 MR GARNHAM: Did that account cause you to re-examine what
3 you had concluded in August?
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I saw this as a separate incident. With
5 the benefit of hindsight I believed I had been lulled
6 into a false sense of security and this Section 47
7 investigation was something separate to the first
8 Section 47 investigation.
9 MR GARNHAM: That is how you saw it?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is how I saw it at the time.
11 MR GARNHAM: When she comes in and explains to you that
12 because of the alleged third abuse it made her think
13 back to the events of July and August, were you prompted
14 to do the same?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did not. That is all I can say,
16 regrettably.
17 MR GARNHAM: You told her that the police CPT would have to
18 be involved?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did.
20 MR GARNHAM: You then spoke to Victoria?
21 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did.
22 MR GARNHAM: And that was alone or with Kouao?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That was alone.
24 MR GARNHAM: And the purpose of that conversation?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: The purpose of that conversation was to
81
1 see how Victoria was, given the graphic allegations that
2 had been made. I had been watching Victoria from the
3 time she arrived in the North Tottenham office.
4 I remember she was dressed in a cotton dress but she had
5 a thick coat and she was wearing thick tights and she
6 had a pair of wellington boots on. She was
7 appropriately dressed and I actually remember thinking
8 that she looked quite cute that day. Although nothing
9 matched, her clothes were clean, she was dressed
10 appropriately. She appeared happy.
11 I remember, after asking Manning to leave, who out
12 of the three of them looked the most stressed and
13 actually said to me, "I did not do what they are saying
14 I did, I do not know why they are saying this", I came
15 back, got Kouao into the interview room to talk to her,
16 and I said to Victoria would she mind playing whilst
17 I spoke to mummy. Victoria, who had been looking as if
18 she wanted to join in with the other children that were
19 playing, got up and was on her way playing whilst I was
20 interviewing Kouao.
21 MR GARNHAM: When you spoke to Victoria did you speak in
22 English?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I spoke in English.
24 MR GARNHAM: How was her English?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Victoria spoke very good English.
82
1 I said to her -- my first words were to her, "Hello
2 Anna, how are you?" and straightaway she launched into
3 a disclosure.
4 MR GARNHAM: Relating to these three allegations of abuse?
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Well, I actually stopped her after --
6 she started to talk about one of the allegations, I am
7 not sure that it was the first one, but what prompted me
8 to stop that interview was the fact that when Kouao was
9 describing Manning's penis she was using a scarf and she
10 was waving this scarf like that. When Victoria came
11 in, she started to use the same hand movements, and
12 I thought something is not right here. I need to
13 inform -- a police officer needs to be present when
14 these disclosure are being made.
15 MR GARNHAM: Would you have thought that a police officer
16 ought to have been present in any event either if you
17 thought Victoria's account was a true bill or if you
18 thought she was just repeating?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: The problem with that interview was
20 I was not memorandum trained. I did not have sufficient
21 experience or the skills to deal with an interview of
22 that nature.
23 MR GARNHAM: No, but that would have been true regardless of
24 whether you thought Victoria had been coached, would it
25 not?
83
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: If I was memorandum trained I would have
2 probably not stopped Victoria from disclosing.
3 MR GARNHAM: You misunderstand my question. Whether or not
4 you had concluded in the first few minutes that it
5 looked as if Victoria was following what her mother had
6 done, regardless of that, you would have needed to have
7 a proper memorandum interview with Victoria, would you
8 not?
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: We would have needed to have a strategy
10 discussion which would decide whether a memorandum
11 interview would be necessary.
12 MR GARNHAM: But you had allowed her to give you an
13 immediate reaction. You had allowed Victoria to give
14 you an immediate reaction. She had started to tell you
15 the story.
16 MISS ARTHURWORREY: She had started.
17 MR GARNHAM: Who was memorandum trained in that office?
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I really do not know.
19 MR GARNHAM: You do not know whether your managers were?
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I have no idea.
21 MR GARNHAM: At your request I think Rose Kozinos also
22 attempted to explain the situation to Kouao whilst you
23 went to arrange the strategy meeting.
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I brought Rose into that interview
25 because I was very concerned with Kouao's manner.
84
1 Although she was making graphic allegations her manner,
2 her demeanour seemed to suggest that she did not give
3 a damn and she really could not understand the
4 seriousness of the situation. She was telling me that
5 Manning should be punished for what he has done but
6 there was something about her manner, she just was not
7 understanding the seriousness. She was not taking me
8 serious, so that is why I got Rose Kozinos to come and
9 speak to her to try and explain the seriousness of this
10 allegation and the processes that would take place.
11 MR GARNHAM: Where was Victoria at this point?
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: When Victoria came in to speak to me and
13 she started to disclose I said to Victoria, "I am going
14 to have to stop you now. I am going to have to speak to
15 mummy again. You will have the opportunity to speak to
16 somebody else about this later." As I got up to leave
17 to go and speak to Kouao, Victoria shouted out, "I am
18 not lying. I must tell you more. It is true." I think
19 at that point I was actually on my way out of the room
20 and Valerie Robertson reassured Victoria.
21 Valerie Robertson said to Victoria, "It is not that Lisa
22 does not believe you, it is just that you are going to
23 have to speak to some other people about this but for
24 the time being Lisa needs to go and get mummy".
25 MR GARNHAM: Where was Rose Kozinos whilst this was
85
1 happening?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: In the Duty room.
3 MR GARNHAM: Because she says she never saw Victoria. Would
4 she have seen Victoria from there?
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I think what happened then, I went to
6 get Kouao and we moved into another interview room and
7 Victoria went back out to play in the reception area.
8 MR GARNHAM: So to your knowledge did Kozinos see Victoria?
9 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, she did not.
10 MR GARNHAM: Whilst Kozinos explained to Kouao the Child
11 Protection Procedures, I think it is right that you went
12 to arrange the strategy meeting and make the referral to
13 the police CPT?
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That again was on Rose Kozinos's
15 instruction.
16 MR GARNHAM: And you arranged the strategy meeting for
17 5th November?
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I had informed Rose Kozinos that I was
19 due to be out of the office the next three or four days.
20 MR GARNHAM: On a training course?
21 MISS ARTHURWORREY: On a training course and that the first
22 opportunity that I would have to attend a strategy
23 meeting would be Friday the 5th and Rose said to me,
24 "Well, arrange it for then".
25 MR GARNHAM: Surely with allegations as serious as this
86
1 which had serious consequences, whether they were true
2 or untrue, this strategy meeting should have been
3 arranged as a matter of much greater urgency than three
4 days when you get back from a training course?
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It should have done. I think the
6 problem that we were faced with was that I felt that it
7 was important for me to be present at that strategy
8 meeting and had Rose said to me, "You need to arrange
9 a strategy meeting on Tuesday", I would have cancelled
10 my training but she told me to arrange it for Friday
11 when I came back.
12 MR GARNHAM: Again you are making your own decisions, are
13 you not? You are the social worker allocated in this
14 case. Even though you have spoken to your manager,
15 surely you would have known that a case as important as
16 this must have appeared to you at the time to require
17 a strategy meeting if not that day, at the very latest
18 first thing the following morning.
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: All I can say to that is this was the
20 first sexual abuse strategy meeting that I had actually
21 attended. I had eight sexual abuse cases on my file, on
22 my case load before that allegation was made, but I had
23 not attended any of those strategy meetings. This was
24 the first strategy meeting that I was attending with
25 regard to allegations of sexual abuse. I took my
87
1 directions from my manager because I do not work
2 autonomously.
3 MR GARNHAM: The procedures talk about arranging a strategy
4 meeting within three days I think.
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: 72 hours I think it is.
6 MR GARNHAM: Which is three days.
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Sorry.
8 MR GARNHAM: But it is for you as the social worker, is it
9 not, to make a judgment about how promptly during those
10 72 hours the strategy meeting needs to be convened?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It is for me as a social worker to
12 report back to my manager and it is a management
13 decision with regard to convening the strategy meeting
14 and that is what I did.
15 MR GARNHAM: What was the reaction of the police when you
16 told them that the strategy meeting was in three days'
17 time?
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: There was no -- I did not actually speak
19 to Constable Jones, I spoke to Paula who was the
20 administrator. The purpose of contacting the police was
21 to make a referral. I also informed Paula that
22 Constable Jones had been involved in this case and that
23 it would be a good idea if Constable Jones attended the
24 strategy meeting.
25 MR GARNHAM: The police did not come back to you and say,
88
1 "Why are we not having it before Friday?"
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, they did not.
3 MR GARNHAM: You then return to the interview room and you
4 told those who were there that Victoria and Kouao could
5 not remain at Manning's flat.
6 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That was on the advice of Rose Kozinos,
7 yes.
8 MR GARNHAM: Who was there then? Was it just Victoria and
9 Kouao in the room? Manning had gone.
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Manning had gone. Victoria, Kouao and
11 the interpreter -- Victoria was never in the room.
12 Victoria was always playing outside in the reception
13 area.
14 MR GARNHAM: It was just Kouao you told this to?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is right.
16 MR GARNHAM: She then suggested that they stay with the
17 Kimbidimas.
18 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Rose Kozinos had said to me that they
19 would need to find somewhere else to stay, so ask them
20 if she has got any friends that they can stay. I asked
21 Kouao whether she had any friends and she suggested the
22 Kimbidimas.
23 MR GARNHAM: She rang them?
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: She rang them.
25 MR GARNHAM: Did you get a note of their number?
89
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I got a note of their number and
2 I actually spoke to them. Kouao had spoken to
3 Chantelle Kimbidima in French to make those
4 arrangements. Because I could not understand what was
5 going on I needed to speak to Chantelle Kimbidima myself
6 and let her know what was going on and what we were
7 asking of her.
8 MR GARNHAM: You say I think, paragraph 195 in your
9 statement, that you told Chantelle Kimbidima about the
10 allegations that had been made.
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I told Chantelle Kimbidima that
12 allegations of sexual abuse had been made and we needed
13 to investigate. Whilst we investigated, could Victoria
14 and Kouao come and stay with you until the case was
15 investigated. Rose Kozinos had suggested that Kouao and
16 Victoria remain with the Kimbidimas for one month.
17 MR GARNHAM: Did you suggest any timescale to the
18 Kimbidimas?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: One month, it was definitely one month.
20 MR GARNHAM: So you said both until the investigation is
21 completed and one month?
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, I said it would probably take us
23 about or it would probably take us about one month to
24 complete the investigation.
25 MR GARNHAM: So you had in mind it being completed by
90
1 5th December?
2 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I do not think I thought that far ahead
3 at that point.
4 MR GARNHAM: I am only adding a month to the date of the
5 phone call.
6 MISS ARTHURWORREY: At the time that was not on my mind, no,
7 but yes, it was a possibility.
8 MR GARNHAM: I think you then sent Kouao and Victoria to the
9 Kimbidimas' home and phoned, you say, to confirm that
10 they arrived safely?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
12 MR GARNHAM: As I am sure you know Mr and Mrs Kimbidima say
13 they only received one phone call.
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Yes.
15 MR GARNHAM: Mrs Kimbidima says that there were no details
16 given. You simply asked if they could stay and there
17 was no mention of how long they might stay. What do you
18 say to that?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I say to that that that is not true.
20 Chantelle Kimbidima was informed of the nature of the
21 allegations. She was informed -- I mean I just cannot
22 ask a child to stay with somebody and not give any time
23 scales at all. I told her it would be for about
24 a month. I distinctly remember at the end of the Duty
25 day, at the end of my Duty day -- because obviously
91
1 after I had sent Victoria and Kouao in a taxi I had to
2 return to my Duty commitments for the rest of that
3 day -- at the end of that day I returned to my desk
4 because I knew that I was going to be out of the office
5 the next three days and I needed to sort my casework
6 out. That is when I wrote up that appointment, the
7 office interview and that is when I called
8 Chantelle Kimbidima just to find out whether Victoria
9 and Kouao had arrived safely.
10 MR GARNHAM: Did you make any checks on the adequacy of the
11 Kimbidimas as a refuge for Victoria?
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Regrettably I did not. Had I been
13 advised to do so I would have done. I can see that that
14 would have been a good idea.
15 MR GARNHAM: You did not need to be advised to do that. Was
16 that not common sense?
17 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Not really. It was not -- I mean
18 I would have had to have got advice from Rose Kozinos
19 because my commitments were to the Duty Team that day.
20 MR GARNHAM: Should you not have attempted some form of
21 interview with Mr and Mrs Kimbidima if only over the
22 phone in order to decide their suitability to house this
23 little girl?
24 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I spoke to Chantelle who said that she
25 was -- who said that she had no problems with Kouao and
92
1 Victoria staying with her.
2 MR GARNHAM: Did you speak to Mr Kimbidima?
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, I did not.
4 MR GARNHAM: Mr Kimbidima says in his statement, volume 7,
5 page 113, that you never phoned back and you never left
6 a number.
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I phoned on the 1st November.
8 I definitely phoned there. I was told that Victoria
9 was -- at the time I made that phone call I was told
10 that Victoria was there but Kouao had gone to collect
11 some of her belongings. If there was a problem I would
12 have expected them to have informed me of a problem at
13 that time but I was led to believe that everything was
14 okay.
15 MR GARNHAM: And you were told at that stage that Kouao had
16 gone back to pick up stuff from the flat?
17 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I was told at that stage that, yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: In fairness to you I should point out that
19 Chantelle Kimbidima does say that Kouao did do that, so
20 by one means or another you had it seems discovered what
21 was happening.
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct, yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: Did you discover how long they in fact stayed
24 with the Kimbidimas?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I returned to the office on Friday the
93
1 5th November. When I returned to the office I again was
2 on Duty. Rose Kozinos was the Duty Senior.
3 MR GARNHAM: I think you had better tell us now about the
4 retraction of the allegations.
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I mean I did not know --
6 MR GARNHAM: All I want to know for the moment is did you
7 discover before 5th November -- and I am sorry I did not
8 phrase the question as clearly as I should -- did you
9 discover before 5th November whether in fact Victoria
10 and Kouao were staying with the Kimbidimas?
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, I did not.
12 MR GARNHAM: There was no check to make sure that the first
13 night had gone okay or anything of that sort?
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did not make those checks because
15 I was not in the office, my training was out of office.
16 MR GARNHAM: When you got back to the office on the 5th,
17 after your training course, Rose Kozinos told you that
18 on the 2nd Kouao had come back to the office.
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: She did.
20 MR GARNHAM: She had come back in order to retract the
21 allegations about sexual abuse.
22 MISS ARTHURWORREY: She did.
23 MR GARNHAM: We have a note of Rose Kozinos' meeting with
24 Victoria and Kouao at page 144 in volume 6. You will
25 see it is dated 2nd November. You say, paragraph 198 of
94
1 your statement, that these notes were written by Kozinos
2 on 25th February and then added to the file.
3 MISS ARTHURWORREY: They were, yes.
4 MR GARNHAM: You say that you actually saw her do that when
5 you were in the office with her discussing Victoria's
6 death.
7 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Victoria had not died at that point.
8 This was on Friday the 25th in the afternoon.
9 MR GARNHAM: Quite right, it was after you had been told
10 of --
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Victoria's admission.
12 MR GARNHAM: To NMH and St Mary's.
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: St Mary's, yes, sorry.
14 MR GARNHAM: You will know that she gives a rather different
15 account of events in her statement and I need to ask you
16 about that. She says that those notes were not made in
17 the way you describe them at the time of the admission
18 to NMH at all and that this was a near contemporaneous
19 note. What do you say to that?
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is not correct.
21 MR GARNHAM: Has anything like this ever happened before to
22 your knowledge, late addition to notebooks like this?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: In Victoria's case, yes, you can see
24 that on the 4th August Barry Almedia had contact with
25 this file, with this case, and he wrote up his contact
95
1 and it was added to the file afterwards.
2 MR GARNHAM: By afterwards in that instance what do you
3 mean?
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It came to me afterwards.
5 MR GARNHAM: After what, after Victoria's death?
6 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, no, no, after --
7 MR GARNHAM: The events?
8 MISS ARTHURWORREY: After the events, sorry, and that was my
9 expectation whenever I had contact on other people's
10 files, I would always make sure that I made a note to be
11 added to the file.
12 MR GARNHAM: If the addition of a note in the way you say
13 occurred with regard to the entry we have at page 144,
14 do you regard that as a proper way to make notes?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It is not a proper way at all.
16 MR GARNHAM: It must happen sometimes to all of us that one
17 forgets to make a note one should at the time and
18 therefore needs to insert it later.
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Yes, that is a situation that can arise.
20 MR GARNHAM: And that would be unobjectionable but would you
21 expect there to be an indication that that had been done
22 in the note?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Absolutely, yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: And there is not here?
25 MISS ARTHURWORREY: There is not.
96
1 MR GARNHAM: So there are two possibilities, are there not?
2 Either this was entered much later as you assert or it
3 was entered rather more contemporaneously as Ms Kozinos
4 asserts.
5 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I can categorically state that I saw
6 Rose Kozinos write these notes on Friday 25th February.
7 MR GARNHAM: Because you saw her do it?
8 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Because I saw her do it.
9 MR GARNHAM: Whenever the note was written the allegations
10 of sexual abuse were withdrawn by Kouao on 2nd November.
11 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That was my understanding, yes.
12 MR GARNHAM: You were not surprised about that?
13 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I was not surprised no.
14 MR GARNHAM: Why?
15 MISS ARTHURWORREY: Because I had found the whole
16 circumstances of that disclosure very bizarre. I had
17 noted a number of inconsistencies from the time Kouao
18 made the initial phone call on the 1st November and
19 there were stark differences in her presentation. On
20 the phone she was screaming, she was shouting. When she
21 returned to the office -- when she came to the office
22 she was sat talking in a calm and appropriate manner to
23 the alleged perpetrator and I just found that so
24 bizarre.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Garnham, I am sorry -- and
97
1 Miss Arthurworrey, I am sorry to interrupt, but I must
2 address some comments to the gentleman in green.
3 I am sure that you agree with me that this is a very
4 serious Inquiry and I am sure that you would want
5 everybody here to listen most intently to the evidence
6 that has been given. I have tried to be very
7 understanding. I would be very grateful if you would
8 remove the toys, if you would sit very quietly, not move
9 about and not be distracting. If you cannot do that
10 I am afraid I have to ask you to leave the room. This
11 is not a debate. This is me telling you, all right?
12 Thank you Mr Garnham.
13 MR GARNHAM: You were telling us why you were not surprised
14 that the allegation had been withdrawn. The strategy
15 meeting had been fixed for the same day you learned this
16 from Rose Kozinos.
17 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
18 MR GARNHAM: Did you suggest that in the light of the
19 withdrawal that it be cancelled?
20 MISS ARTHURWORREY: No, I did not.
21 MR GARNHAM: Kozinos says you did and that she insisted that
22 it go ahead.
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is not correct.
24 MR GARNHAM: Did Kozinos say to you that she was concerned
25 about bullying by Kouao of Victoria?
98
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: There was no mention in the strategy
2 meeting discussion of Kouao bullying Victoria. There
3 was no mention in the strategy meeting of Victoria
4 having left the office in a withdrawn and subdued state.
5 The only discussion in the strategy meeting with regard
6 to the allegation on the 2nd November was that Kouao had
7 come into the office. She had said that Victoria had
8 made everything up and on that basis wanted to retract.
9 I do remember before the strategy meeting discussion
10 that Rose had said that Kouao had told her that the
11 carers were worried about Victoria telling lies about
12 them but Rose had said to Kouao that she had to stay
13 there until the case was investigated.
14 MR GARNHAM: Presumably when you eventually saw the note of
15 2nd November that we have at page 144 you read it?
16 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did not see -- I did not actually read
17 that note until I gave evidence at the criminal trial
18 in November.
19 MR GARNHAM: I understand that position. When you read it,
20 although you have the considerable reservations that you
21 have told us about as to when it was written, was it
22 accurate in content?
23 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I did not attend. I was not in the
24 office on 2nd November so I do not know.
25 MR GARNHAM: Was it inconsistent with what you did learn?
99
1 MISS ARTHURWORREY: It was inconsistent with what I had been
2 told.
3 MR GARNHAM: In what way?
4 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That there was no mention of the
5 interaction between Kouao and Victoria. I was simply
6 told that the allegations had been retracted and that
7 Victoria -- Kouao had said that Victoria had made
8 everything up. That was all I was told.
9 MR GARNHAM: The strategy meeting went ahead?
10 MISS ARTHURWORREY: The strategy meeting went ahead.
11 MR GARNHAM: Chaired by Rose Kozinos?
12 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
13 MR GARNHAM: Attended by PCs Jones and Ricketts and you?
14 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That is correct.
15 MR GARNHAM: We have the notes at page 74. Can I ask you
16 a couple of questions about those notes? On page 2 it
17 says that the school is Bruce Grove Primary School. How
18 did that entry come to be made?
19 MISS ARTHURWORREY: That entry came to be made because I was
20 trying to provide the strategy meeting with as much
21 information as I could. I had completed my home visit
22 to Kouao on 28th October, which was a Thursday, and she
23 had told me on that Thursday that she was intending to
24 register Victoria at Bruce Grove. I admit the
25 information was contradictory and I should have put
100
1 a question mark because schooling was still an issue,
2 but I did inform the strategy meeting that schooling was
3 an issue which can be seen in one of the
4 recommendations: "Explore the issues of schooling".
5 MR GARNHAM: Over the page, top of the page: "Development of
6 the child. No assessment has been completed". Explain
7 to us what that means.
8 MISS ARTHURWORREY: There is no comprehensive assessment had
9 been completed. I just carried out an initial
10 assessment with regards to the Section 47 investigation.
11 MR GARNHAM: The note on the next page about the schooling
12 is point 9, "Need to explore issues of schooling." It
13 seems a rather pedestrian way in which this is being
14 dealt with. Victoria has not been in school since she
15 arrived. She has certainly not been in school that
16 term. There is a note, unqualified, that she has now
17 got a school and the only development of that point is
18 a note: "Need to explore issues of schooling." Surely
19 the overwhelming need was to get on and get this child
20 into a school?
21 MISS ARTHURWORREY: I informed the strategy meeting of my
22 involvement with Victoria from July up until the
23 1st November. As I spoke about my involvement Rose
24 wrote down these actions.
25 MR GARNHAM: You tell us that there was no copy of the
|
