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Archived Transcript for 8 November 2001: Pages
201 to 233
201
1 mumbling ..."
2 That is right, is it?
3 MS TAUB: Yes.
4 MR GARNHAM: "... so that I could hardly understand what she
5 was saying. However, I do not recall her ever saying
6 that she had poured boiling water over herself."
7 MS TAUB: No, but at one point -- because at one point
8 I said to her, "No, you must not play with the hot
9 water" but it was not very clear how she did it.
10 I could not make out exactly.
11 MR GARNHAM: Is that last sentence of that paragraph an
12 accurate statement of your recollection:
13 "... I do not recall her ever saying that she had
14 poured boiling water over herself"?
15 It is the top of page 3. Is that accurate or would
16 you like to change that?
17 MS TAUB: If I changed it, it is only to say that I was not
18 quite sure because she did mention something about
19 pouring boiling water but I could not make out whether
20 she did it herself or it was accidental.
21 MR GARNHAM: Did she suggest at any stage that someone else
22 had done it to her?
23 MS TAUB: Not really.
24 MR GARNHAM: Did you tell Dr Rossiter about that question,
25 that answer?
202
1 MS TAUB: When I saw Dr Rossiter next time I mention all the
2 things that I found out during my first visit.
3 MR GARNHAM: Did you tell her about this unclear answer to
4 the question?
5 MS TAUB: Yes. Yes.
6 MR GARNHAM: One last point on that subject, Mrs Taub.
7 I ask you to look again at that single sentence at the
8 top of page 3, and you explained that you were not clear
9 what she was saying, that she was not clear. The
10 expression you have used there is:
11 "... I do not recall her ever saying that she had
12 poured boiling water over herself."
13 That leaves open the possibility that she might have
14 said to you that she poured hot water over herself or
15 cold water over herself or something else. Can you help
16 us any more?
17 MS TAUB: No, I suppose because of the burn it will have
18 been boiling water.
19 MR GARNHAM: That is your supposition?
20 MS TAUB: Yes.
21 MR GARNHAM: But she did not say one way or the other or you
22 cannot recall or she was indistinct?
23 MS TAUB: She was indistinct.
24 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. You tell us in paragraph 12 that
25 you spent 20 minutes with her the first time. Did you
203
1 then see her again?
2 MS TAUB: Yes.
3 MR GARNHAM: Every day?
4 MS TAUB: Not every day but practically every day.
5 MR GARNHAM: How long would you spend with her?
6 MS TAUB: If it was during my lunch break up to an hour or
7 a little bit under.
8 MR GARNHAM: What about the days when you were not at the
9 hospital?
10 MS TAUB: When I was not working I spent as long as I could.
11 MR GARNHAM: Does that mean you came in especially to see
12 her?
13 MS TAUB: Yes.
14 MR GARNHAM: I think sometimes you took her up to the
15 Special Baby Care Unit because she liked to see the
16 babies?
17 MS TAUB: Yes, that is right. Yes she did like it.
18 MR GARNHAM: You were present on one occasion when Kouao and
19 Manning visited?
20 MS TAUB: That is right.
21 MR GARNHAM: What time of day was that?
22 MS TAUB: It was in the middle of the afternoon.
23 MR GARNHAM: How did they appear with her?
24 MS TAUB: That was the only time I saw them and it was
25 initially during the first stages when she was admitted
204
1 to the hospital, she was still in isolation, and polite
2 I shook hands with both of them. I cannot remember if
3 the man spoke French but the woman spoke French quite
4 well.
5 MR GARNHAM: How did she introduce herself to you?
6 MS TAUB: She did not really introduce herself because
7 I knew who she was. Well, I presumed who she was. We
8 just shook hands and I stayed a little while and we
9 spoke about life in France, life in England.
10 MR GARNHAM: What was Victoria's attitude when they were
11 there, how did she behave?
12 MS TAUB: Well she went and stood next to Kouao and she
13 never spoke.
14 MR GARNHAM: Did she appear to behave in the same way in
15 their presence as she had when she was just with you?
16 MS TAUB: No, she was quiet.
17 MR GARNHAM: Did she hold herself in the same way in their
18 presence as with you?
19 MS TAUB: No. Because she stood next to the woman and stood
20 like that all the time I was there. I did not stay very
21 long because I did not want to intrude.
22 MR GARNHAM: How long did you stay?
23 MS TAUB: I could not say because I was there quite a while
24 and it was maybe just another probably 10 minutes, maybe
25 less than that. I am not sure.
205
1 MR GARNHAM: Did you observe any signs of affection from
2 Victoria to Kouao?
3 MS TAUB: No, but then again because I was speaking to Kouao
4 maybe the child was standing next to her and just
5 listening without -- just not interfering with the
6 conversation, probably.
7 MR GARNHAM: Were there signs of affection from Kouao to
8 Victoria?
9 MS TAUB: Not really. Not that I was aware of.
10 MR GARNHAM: Did it feel like an ordinary mother/daughter
11 relationship?
12 MS TAUB: I never thought about it because I presumed she
13 was the mother.
14 MR GARNHAM: So it was not obviously not so?
15 MS TAUB: Not really, because not everybody showing a lot of
16 sign of affection to the children.
17 MR GARNHAM: Was she chatty with them as she was with you?
18 MS TAUB: No, because she was talking to me, you see.
19 MR GARNHAM: You spoke in French to Kouao?
20 MS TAUB: Yes.
21 MR GARNHAM: You have told us that she told you a little
22 about herself.
23 MS TAUB: I asked her how long she has been in England which
24 I do not remember what she said and how she liked it.
25 I asked if she was working. General conversation,
206
1 really.
2 MR GARNHAM: Then you left them?
3 MS TAUB: Yes.
4 MR GARNHAM: You say that Victoria was an affectionate child
5 towards you?
6 MS TAUB: Yes.
7 MR GARNHAM: How was that demonstrated?
8 MS TAUB: She used to run and just, you know, just kiss me
9 just like a child would.
10 MR GARNHAM: She was a child who hugged and kissed readily,
11 did she?
12 MS TAUB: Yes.
13 MR GARNHAM: Was she like that on the occasion that Kouao
14 and Manning were there?
15 MS TAUB: No.
16 MR GARNHAM: Did you report this to Dr Rossiter, this
17 difference?
18 MS TAUB: I know I spoke about it but I do not remember if
19 I spoke about it to the nurses or Dr Rossiter. I cannot
20 remember because at that time I was not aware there were
21 problems there.
22 MR GARNHAM: You tell us, paragraph 19, that Victoria came
23 into the hospital with nothing but the clothes she stood
24 up in.
25 MS TAUB: This is what I was told, yes.
207
1 MR GARNHAM: Did Kouao and Manning bring her clothes when
2 you saw them?
3 MS TAUB: No, that time she did not bring anything.
4 MR GARNHAM: Nothing else?
5 MS TAUB: Not that I saw.
6 MR GARNHAM: But staff on the ward gave clothes and presents
7 to Victoria?
8 MS TAUB: Yes.
9 MR GARNHAM: How was she regarded by staff?
10 MS TAUB: Everybody liked her.
11 MR GARNHAM: You tell us, in paragraph 22, that on one visit
12 to the Special Baby Care Unit Victoria was wearing
13 a straw hat and a white dress given to her by one of the
14 nurses and someone took a photograph.
15 MS TAUB: Yes, we took two photos.
16 MR GARNHAM: Is that one of them?
17 MS TAUB: I do not think so. There were polaroid
18 photographs, two of them.
19 MR GARNHAM: Have a look at that photo, if you will. Is
20 that one you have seen before?
21 MS TAUB: No, no.
22 MR GARNHAM: That is a different photograph?
23 MS TAUB: No, that is not the one. She did not have a white
24 dress, actually she had a different kind of dress.
25 MR GARNHAM: How was Victoria's English when you spoke to
208
1 her?
2 MS TAUB: I do not think she spoke English but by the time
3 she left she spoke quite a bit of English, yes.
4 MR GARNHAM: Enough to conduct a simple conversation?
5 MS TAUB: I do not know because we --
6 MR GARNHAM: You spoke in French?
7 MS TAUB: Yes.
8 MR GARNHAM: When did you last see Victoria, Miss Taub?
9 MS TAUB: The day of discharge. I was supposed to take her
10 around that day and that was it, is last time I saw her.
11 MR GARNHAM: I think you were told she was going home when
12 you got to the ward?
13 MS TAUB: Well, I phoned before leaving and I was told she
14 had gone and somebody said she is still there so I went
15 and stood with her for quite a few hours but nobody came
16 to collect her, so I left her and went home.
17 MR GARNHAM: Did you have any plans to meet Victoria again?
18 MS TAUB: Yes, I did actually. Yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: What were they?
20 MS TAUB: Well I had given her a book and I put my name and
21 my telephone number and asked her -- because I thought
22 that was her mother -- to ask her mum if she wanted me
23 to come and visit her, but nobody contacted me.
24 MR GARNHAM: And how did you part?
25 MS TAUB: Well just normally. I just kissed her and said
209
1 goodbye and said I will see you again, all in French.
2 MR GARNHAM: Did you see her again?
3 MS TAUB: No, that is the last time I saw her.
4 MR GARNHAM: Did you ever receive any reports as to how she
5 was getting on from Dr Rossiter?
6 MS TAUB: No, no.
7 MR GARNHAM: Do you still have a clear recollection of
8 Victoria?
9 MS TAUB: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: You have since learned about what happened to
11 her?
12 MS TAUB: Yes.
13 MR GARNHAM: Do you think anything that you have learned
14 since has coloured the recollection you have of Victoria
15 or are you simply remembering what happened back then in
16 the summer of 1999?
17 MS TAUB: Well, I remember what happened but I do not know
18 what you are trying to ask me.
19 MR GARNHAM: I want to know whether you think you still have
20 a clear recollection of your meetings and dealings with
21 Victoria.
22 MS TAUB: Yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: Or whether what happened since has coloured the
24 way you remember things?
25 MS TAUB: No, no, I remember.
210
1 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Mason?
3 MR MASON: No questions, thank you sir.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: And neither do I, Nurse Taub. Thank you very
5 much. You have given your evidence very clearly indeed
6 and if I may say so, the acts of kindness that you
7 showed Victoria I am sure were immensely valued not
8 least by her parents who are here today. Thank you very
9 much.
10 MS TAUB: Thank you.
11 MR GARNHAM: Sir, we have one other short witness who we
12 would like to try and take tonight.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry. Nurse Taub, at the beginning of your
14 evidence you gave an address. Was that your home
15 address or was that --
16 MS TAUB: Yes, my home address.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that ought to be removed from the
18 record. It is 199.22 and we will make sure that is
19 removed from the record.
20 MR GARNHAM: Thank you sir. Mr Sheldon will take that last
21 witness.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Sheldon, thank you.
23 MR SHELDON: Yes sir, the next witness is Noelle O'Boyce,
24 please.
25 MS NOELLE MARY O'BOYCE (sworn)
211
1 MR SHELDON: Good afternoon Ms O'Boyce. Could you confirm
2 your full name.
3 MS O'BOYCE: My name is Noelle Mary O'Boyce.
4 MR SHELDON: I think a copy of your statement is just about
5 to be put in front of you. You recall having made
6 a statement for use by this Inquiry. Sir, for your note
7 volume 6, it starts at page 198.
8 Could you have a look at that statement please and
9 at the last page in particular. Is that your signature
10 at the bottom?
11 MS O'BOYCE: Yes it is.
12 MR SHELDON: Are you happy that the facts and matters in
13 that statement are true?
14 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I am.
15 MR SHELDON: Sir, Ms O'Boyce made a short statement for the
16 CPS, that is in volume 46 and it starts at page 161.
17 I believe that between 1995 and the year 2000 you were
18 employed at North Middlesex Hospital as a full-time play
19 specialist?
20 MS O'BOYCE: That is correct, yes.
21 MR SHELDON: And that you also worked on some occasions as a
22 part-time nursery nurse.
23 MS O'BOYCE: That is right.
24 MR SHELDON: You detail in your statement the various bits
25 of child protection training that you have had.
212
1 MS O'BOYCE: That is right.
2 MR SHELDON: I will not take you through those in detail but
3 what it boils down to essentially was this, was it not:
4 if you saw anything which you thought was significant in
5 terms of child protection you should tell somebody about
6 it?
7 MS O'BOYCE: That is right.
8 MR SHELDON: Who would you tell about it?
9 MS O'BOYCE: I would either tell the nurse looking after the
10 child in particular or I would tell the nurse in charge
11 or the lead nurse.
12 MR SHELDON: In your capacity as a play specialist would you
13 ever have cause to make entries in the clinical notes?
14 MS O'BOYCE: It was not common practice that I did. If
15 however I had a verbal conversation with the child,
16 a disclosure, often with adolescents, that is the time
17 I would write in the notes.
18 MR SHELDON: There is nothing to stop you from writing in
19 the clinical notes if you thought that appropriate?
20 MS O'BOYCE: No.
21 MR SHELDON: Were you aware of the operation of something on
22 the Rainbow Ward called the critical incident log?
23 MS O'BOYCE: No, I was not.
24 MR SHELDON: Turning to your dealings with Victoria. You
25 saw, I think it is right to say, Victoria every day
213
1 whilst you were on duty?
2 MS O'BOYCE: Whilst I was on duty, that is correct.
3 MR SHELDON: And your hours of duty were 9 to 5, Monday to
4 Friday. You mentioned in paragraph 10 of your statement
5 that you would look after Victoria in one of two
6 capacities depending on the occasion, either as a play
7 therapist or as a nursery nurse?
8 MS O'BOYCE: That is right.
9 MR SHELDON: And how would your care of and interaction with
10 Victoria differ depending on which hat you were wearing?
11 MS O'BOYCE: When I was a play specialist I did not have any
12 medical interaction with Victoria. When I was a play
13 specialist I played with her, we played games and drew
14 pictures, we talked and it was very much an emotional
15 rather than a medical interaction.
16 MR SHELDON: When you were working as a play specialist
17 would Victoria be part of a group whose play you were
18 supervising at the same time or would it be one on one
19 individual --
20 MS O'BOYCE: It would be either, depending on the amount of
21 other children, because I was the only play specialist
22 on the unit.
23 MR SHELDON: You say Victoria was quite quiet initially.
24 MS O'BOYCE: Initially, that is right.
25 MR SHELDON: Do you think that might have been due to
214
1 language problems more than anything else?
2 MS O'BOYCE: Yes I did.
3 MR SHELDON: Did she become more chatty as time went on?
4 MS O'BOYCE: As time went on, yes.
5 MR SHELDON: Do you speak any French?
6 MS O'BOYCE: No, I do not.
7 MR SHELDON: So presumably when she had conversation with
8 you that conversation took place in English?
9 MS O'BOYCE: I think probably broken English or body
10 language.
11 MR SHELDON: I see. Did she enjoy playing?
12 MS O'BOYCE: Yes she did.
13 MR SHELDON: Anything in particular?
14 MS O'BOYCE: She enjoyed painting and drawing and colouring
15 in pictures.
16 MR SHELDON: And you express a view in your statement that
17 seems to be shared by many of your colleagues that she
18 was a delightful child.
19 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, she was.
20 MR SHELDON: You mention one aspect of her play which
21 I would like to ask you one or two questions about which
22 was her tendency to hide toys.
23 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: You say in paragraph 16 of your statement that
25 Victoria would often hide the toys that she had been
215
1 given, and not even take them out after she had been
2 asked to; is that right?
3 MS O'BOYCE: That is right.
4 MR SHELDON: Was the fact that she hid her toys in this
5 manner suggestive of anything to you?
6 MS O'BOYCE: I did discuss it with the nurse that had been
7 looking after her. We had decided not to push her.
8 I am not a qualified counsellor, it would not be
9 something I would deal with. I tried to encourage her
10 to take the toys out. She refused. We wanted to play
11 different games, she wanted to play with other things,
12 so I did not push her on that aspect.
13 MR SHELDON: Is the fact that you discussed it with a nurse
14 indicative of the fact that you found it a bit worrying?
15 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: Did you think it might be significant in child
17 protection terms?
18 MS O'BOYCE: It possibly could have. It depends on whether
19 she had toys at home or not.
20 MR SHELDON: But you did not feel qualified to make that
21 sort of assessment or judgment?
22 MS O'BOYCE: No, I did not.
23 MR SHELDON: The next aspect of her behaviour is the
24 attachment you record that Victoria felt towards one
25 particular dress.
216
1 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: You say that she became particularly attached
3 to a dress given to her by Nurse Norman?
4 MS O'BOYCE: That is right.
5 MR SHELDON: And she seemed to think it seems to me, from
6 the way you put it in your statement, that she was
7 worried that she would not get it back if she gave it
8 up.
9 MS O'BOYCE: That was the impression that I got, yes.
10 MR SHELDON: That is something that stuck in your mind even
11 after two years?
12 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
13 MR SHELDON: Because you regarded that as unusual behaviour?
14 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I did.
15 MR SHELDON: Did you feel that that had any significance in
16 relation to child abuse or child protection emotional or
17 physical abuse?
18 MS O'BOYCE: Again, that is not something I am qualified to
19 answer, really. In my own opinion I did think it was
20 quite worrying.
21 MR SHELDON: Did you discuss that aspect of her behaviour
22 with anybody?
23 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I did.
24 MR SHELDON: Who with?
25 MS O'BOYCE: I cannot remember. It would have been either
217
1 the nurse looking after her or the nurse in charge that
2 day.
3 MR SHELDON: I see. You also record in your statement that
4 Victoria's eating habits were unusual.
5 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: She was always asking for food and there seemed
7 to be no routine either in the time of her meals or the
8 way she approached the different courses in a meal, is
9 that right?
10 MS O'BOYCE: That is right.
11 MR SHELDON: Did that seem to indicate to you that she was
12 not used to having regular meals at regular times?
13 MS O'BOYCE: That is what it seemed to me to be, yes.
14 MR SHELDON: Did you think that might be significant.
15 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I did.
16 MR SHELDON: Same question again: did you discuss it with
17 anybody?
18 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I did.
19 MR SHELDON: Was that with a nurse on the ward?
20 MS O'BOYCE: I do remember discussing that in particular
21 with Lead Nurse Norman. We discussed trying to get her
22 into a routine where she would have her breakfast, lunch
23 and dinner at regular times and in a regular order.
24 MR SHELDON: So you definitely discussed the eating habits
25 with Nurse Norman?
218
1 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I did.
2 MR SHELDON: But as to the attachment with the dress and the
3 hiding the toys you cannot be sure which nurse you spoke
4 to?
5 MS O'BOYCE: I could not be sure.
6 MR SHELDON: You mention in your statement one incident of
7 bathing Victoria which took place on 26th July.
8 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: That was something you did, according to your
10 statement at paragraph 20, with Clare Watling; is that
11 right?
12 MS O'BOYCE: That is right, yes.
13 MR SHELDON: The way you put it in your statement at
14 paragraph 20 is as follows:
15 "Looking at the nursing notes of the 26th July it
16 must have been on this day that one of the nurses,
17 Clare Watling and I bathed Victoria."
18 Do I take it from the way you put it there you have
19 no independent recollection of these events?
20 MS O'BOYCE: I remember the situation happening. I was not
21 sure of what day it was. I did remember --
22 MR SHELDON: So the reference to the notes there is in terms
23 of assisting you as to the date rather than anything
24 else about that event?
25 MS O'BOYCE: That is right, yes.
219
1 MR SHELDON: You say you saw bruising to Victoria's back?
2 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
3 MR SHELDON: And you took the view that one of the marks
4 might have been caused by a belt buckle; is that right?
5 MS O'BOYCE: That was a joint opinion. I had stayed with
6 Victoria while Clare had called Beat down and Beat had
7 said that she felt it was a buckle and I agreed.
8 MR SHELDON: That is Nurse Norman, is it?
9 MS O'BOYCE: That is right, yes.
10 MR SHELDON: But the fact it was Ms Watling that went to see
11 Nurse Norman does not mean that you did not share the
12 concern that she expressed to her?
13 MS O'BOYCE: No, not at all.
14 MR SHELDON: And you say that as a result of the
15 communication of the concerns to Nurse Norman,
16 Dr Reynders became involved?
17 MS O'BOYCE: That is right, yes.
18 MR SHELDON: And you state in paragraph 20 that you thought
19 that it was at this time that Dr Reynders did the
20 drawings of Victoria's injuries?
21 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
22 MR SHELDON: Do you have a clear recollection of him doing
23 that?
24 MS O'BOYCE: I do not have a clear recollection. I do think
25 I was with her while the drawings were being done which
220
1 makes me think it was at the same time. That is why
2 I was of the opinion that it was then.
3 MR SHELDON: I see. This was around about lunchtime on the
4 26th July?
5 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: You made a statement to the Crown Prosecution
7 Service in preparation for the trial of Kouao and
8 Manning. I wonder if you could be given a copy of that.
9 It is in volume 46 and it starts at page 161. I will
10 not take you through the whole thing but you will see
11 the first substantive paragraph on that page indicates
12 that you cared for Anna on 1st August 1999. Do you see
13 that?
14 MS O'BOYCE: Yes I do.
15 MR SHELDON: Am I right to say that nowhere in that Crown
16 Prosecution Service statement do you mention this
17 incident of bathing Victoria on 26th July?
18 MS O'BOYCE: No, I did not.
19 MR SHELDON: Is that because you could not recall that
20 incident when you made this statement?
21 MS O'BOYCE: I cannot be sure.
22 MR SHELDON: Because one might think -- and you will correct
23 me if I am wrong -- in the context of the murder
24 investigation and the facts that you knew them to be at
25 the time you made this statement, the fact that you had
221
1 seen a belt buckle mark on Victoria's skin would have
2 been significant, would it not?
3 MS O'BOYCE: That was an opinion that I agreed with rather
4 than an independent opinion of my own.
5 MR SHELDON: So are you saying that you did remember this
6 incident at the time you made this statement but you
7 felt inhibited in recording it because it was just an
8 opinion?
9 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: I see. But you are now confident about that
11 opinion and your recollection of it?
12 MS O'BOYCE: Well, in my non-professional opinion that is
13 what I agreed with but it was a non-professional
14 opinion.
15 MR SHELDON: Can I just be clear before we leave this topic
16 why you felt able to record that recollection in the
17 statement you made to the Inquiry but not in the
18 statement you made to the Crown Prosecution Service.
19 MS O'BOYCE: I cannot recall.
20 MR SHELDON: But you are confident, are you, that this is
21 a recollection you have had all along?
22 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: If we look at the notes at volume 37, page 261,
24 please. We can see at the bottom of that page a note
25 which looks as if it may have been written by
222
1 Clare Watling. Is that right?
2 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, that is right.
3 MR SHELDON: We can see she has recorded:
4 "Anna has had a good day. Dressing taken down from
5 head this morning and cleaned. Site appears to be
6 drying and is weeping less. Bathed and hair washed at
7 lunchtime."
8 Now that was the bathing and hair washing you were
9 involved with; yes?
10 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, it is.
11 MR SHELDON: There is nothing there about belt buckle marks,
12 Dr Reynders being involved or Nurse Norman being
13 informed, is there?
14 MS O'BOYCE: No, there is not.
15 MR SHELDON: I know you did not write this note. Are you
16 surprised to see something that significant did not find
17 its way into Nurse Watling's record?
18 MS O'BOYCE: This is a normal history sheet that would
19 possibly be at the bottom of a bed. I would have
20 presumed if she had written it, it would be in a
21 confidential file in the trolley in the office.
22 MR SHELDON: Let us look at that, at page 275. There is one
23 entry for the 26th July 1999 and that is not written by
24 Clare Watling, is it?
25 MS O'BOYCE: No, it is not.
223
1 MR SHELDON: And it seems to me, and I wonder if it seems to
2 you as well, that there is no entry which Clare Watling
3 on that critical incident log?
4 MS O'BOYCE: No, there does not seem to be.
5 MR SHELDON: This is something that you have remembered,
6 despite it being two years ago, without any
7 contemporaneous note or CPS statement to help you. Now
8 that must mean that you thought it was significant and
9 unusual at the time.
10 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I did.
11 MR SHELDON: Are you surprised to find that something that
12 was that significant and that unusual and that
13 noteworthy does not find its way into the notes, either
14 the critical incident log or the clinical notes?
15 MS O'BOYCE: I cannot answer for Clare.
16 MR SHELDON: But you are absolutely sure about what you saw?
17 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I am.
18 MR SHELDON: You do not think there is any chance what you
19 now know about what happened to Victoria may have
20 coloured your recollection of these events?
21 MS O'BOYCE: No, I distinctly remember the conversation with
22 Nurse Norman and Nurse Watling on that day.
23 MR SHELDON: Did you make your statement to the Inquiry
24 after you had seen the photographs of Victoria that were
25 taken whilst she was in North Middlesex Hospital?
224
1 MS O'BOYCE: I only saw the photographs of Victoria last
2 week.
3 MR SHELDON: You did not go to the trial?
4 MS O'BOYCE: No, I did not.
5 MR SHELDON: Did you make your statement after having seen
6 the statements of other people?
7 MS O'BOYCE: No, I did not.
8 MR SHELDON: So it is an entirely independent recollection
9 that is recorded there?
10 MS O'BOYCE: Yes it was.
11 MR SHELDON: And you are confident that what you know about
12 Victoria from the media or from talking to other people
13 has not influenced you in your recollection of the
14 events as you remember them?
15 MS O'BOYCE: No.
16 MR SHELDON: Do you think you should have made a record of
17 what have you saw when you were bathing Victoria that
18 day?
19 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I do.
20 MR SHELDON: Can you give any explanation as to why you did
21 not?
22 MS O'BOYCE: No, I cannot. I do know now -- I do not work
23 in the North Mid anymore but the person who has taken
24 over my job is recording all the information that is
25 relevant now.
225
1 MR SHELDON: Do you recall whether or not you were aware at
2 the time when you were giving this bath to Victoria that
3 there were some concerns about the fact that she might
4 have been abused?
5 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: You then came into contact with Victoria again
7 on 1st August, and you had been on the night shift for
8 the night of 31st July and going into the 1st August; is
9 that right?
10 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, that is right.
11 MR SHELDON: Presumably, that was in your capacity as
12 a nursery nurse rather than a play specialist.
13 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, that is right.
14 MR SHELDON: You make a note at page 268 of the volume in
15 front of you. At the bottom of that page, could you
16 just read it out, please?
17 MS O'BOYCE: My statement; what I have written?
18 MR SHELDON: No, the note at the bottom of page 268 that is
19 in your handwriting, I believe.
20 MS O'BOYCE: All of it?
21 MR SHELDON: Yes.
22 MS O'BOYCE: "Anna had a comfortable night. Has wet bed
23 x 1. Complaining of headache, Paracetamol given. Slept
24 well, asking for food during the night, not given,
25 cleaned her scalp herself with saline. Medication given
226
1 as prescribed."
2 MR SHELDON: Was there anything significant about the fact
3 she had cleaned her own scalp with saline?
4 MS O'BOYCE: That is what she would have done. It is clean
5 water. That is what you would normally clean a wound
6 with.
7 MR SHELDON: I see. So it was a positive thing, if
8 anything, that she was doing that herself rather than
9 anyone doing it for her.
10 MS O'BOYCE: She chose to do it herself, that is right.
11 MR SHELDON: She wet the bed. Did you know whether that was
12 usual or unusual?
13 MS O'BOYCE: I do not remember.
14 MR SHELDON: We have a note, over the page on page 269, of
15 the ward round done by Dr Rossiter, presumably the next
16 morning. Can you see that?
17 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I can.
18 MR SHELDON: Then there is a number of numbered lines about
19 halfway down the page and we see there a note saying:
20 "Self treatment with Hibitane for itching scalp
21 (? is this evidence of emotional neglect)".
22 Did she self-treat herself with Hibitane on that
23 night that you were looking after her, the 31st of the
24 1st?
25 MS O'BOYCE: No, we use saline.
227
1 MR SHELDON: Did you ever hear of or come across her
2 treating her scalp with Hibitane?
3 MS O'BOYCE: No. I do not know what Hibitane is.
4 MR SHELDON: When did you become aware that Victoria had
5 been discharged from hospital?
6 MS O'BOYCE: When I came to work the following week on the
7 day after she had been discharged.
8 MR SHELDON: What, if anything, did you learn about the
9 circumstances of her discharge?
10 MS O'BOYCE: I do not recall. I remember hearing that she
11 had been discharged and being surprised, but I do not
12 remember actually having any conversations about that.
13 MR SHELDON: Why were you surprised?
14 MS O'BOYCE: Because I did not think she would have been
15 discharged.
16 MR SHELDON: Why not?
17 MS O'BOYCE: Because I thought she had been abused.
18 MR SHELDON: Did you express that surprise or those concerns
19 to anybody?
20 MS O'BOYCE: I would presume that I would have done. I do
21 not recall any conversations.
22 MR SHELDON: It seems from your statement, or I get the
23 impression from your statement, that you formed quite an
24 attachment to Victoria while she was on the ward. Is
25 that right?
228
1 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I did.
2 MR SHELDON: Given that, did you seek to enquire after she
3 left what had become of her?
4 MS O'BOYCE: I remember asking but I do not recall.
5 MR SHELDON: You did not make any efforts to find out where
6 she was living or how she was getting on in the
7 community, for example?
8 MS O'BOYCE: No, I did not.
9 MR SHELDON: Did the police ever come and talk to you about
10 Victoria before the murder?
11 MS O'BOYCE: No, they did not.
12 MR SHELDON: Do you recall her case being discussed on the
13 ward after she had been discharged?
14 MS O'BOYCE: No, I do not.
15 MR SHELDON: Could you have a look at volume 37 again,
16 page 108. There are two notes at the top of that page,
17 both dated 4th August 1999. I know that neither of them
18 are in your handwriting. Do you know whose signature
19 that is; do you recognise it?
20 MS O'BOYCE: It must be Claire Lampe because she is the only
21 other nursery nurse that works in the unit.
22 MR SHELDON: I did not catch the surname.
23 MS O'BOYCE: Lampe, L-A-M-P-E.
24 MR SHELDON: Thank you. Do you recall Victoria at any stage
25 that you were looking after her, either as a play
229
1 specialist or a nursery nurse, being incontinent of
2 faeces whilst she was under your care?
3 MS O'BOYCE: I do not recall, no.
4 MR SHELDON: Finally, Ms O'Boyce, you are confident, are
5 you, that all the concerns that you recorded in your
6 statement to this inquiry were concerns and observations
7 about Victoria that you had at the time?
8 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Mr Mason?
11 MR MASON: Thank you, sir. Just one question, Ms O'Boyce.
12 You have been asked if you were ever contacted by police
13 and asked for your comments. Were you ever contacted by
14 Haringey or any other social services and asked about
15 Victoria before her murder?
16 MS O'BOYCE: No, I was not.
17 MR MASON: Thank you, sir.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms O'Boyce, I just want to be clear so you
19 may have to go over a little bit of ground again.
20 Apart from the obvious wounds that you saw that were
21 being treated, were there other reasons why you thought
22 that Victoria was in the hospital? Were there other
23 reasons why you thought Victoria was in the hospital?
24 MS O'BOYCE: Sorry, can you repeat that?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me put it to you directly. Had you been
230
1 told or did you know that there were suspicions of
2 non-accidental injury?
3 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, I did know that there were suspicions.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Who told you that?
5 MS O'BOYCE: I cannot recall. I would presume -- but I am
6 presuming -- that it would have been the nurse looking
7 after her on the Monday, which was Clare Watling.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Had you ever, at that stage, had experience
9 of any other children on the ward or children that you
10 had had contact with where there were similar
11 suspicions?
12 MS O'BOYCE: Not of physical abuse but of other types of
13 abuse, yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: And were you told at any time how you should
15 behave with those children?
16 MS O'BOYCE: It was always to discuss it with the nurse
17 looking after the child or with the nurse in charge of
18 the ward.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you told to keep the children under
20 observation?
21 MS O'BOYCE: That would be something that I would do in
22 play. Other kind of observations I would not be able to
23 give an opinion.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: So it would be part of your professional
25 skills to observe children at play or in your everyday
231
1 dealing with them?
2 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: When you and Nurse Watling bathed Victoria
4 you observed these marks on her back. Did that come as
5 a surprise, a shock to you?
6 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, it did.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: What was your immediate thought?
8 MS O'BOYCE: That they were bruises, was my immediate
9 thought.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: And how might you have thought those bruises
11 got there on her back?
12 MS O'BOYCE: I did not really think about it. I was
13 distracting her and talking to her while Clare went to
14 get the late nurse.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: What I mean is: if the bruises had been on
16 the front of her arm, you might have thought that she
17 had actually bumped into something, but where the
18 bruises were might have caused you to think how did
19 these bruises occur.
20 MS O'BOYCE: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: You were sufficiently concerned to get
22 someone else to come and see the bruises?
23 MS O'BOYCE: Yes, that is right.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: You remember today vividly this, and you have
25 said you have no doubt at all about it.
232
1 MS O'BOYCE: Of that, no. I have no doubt.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: And you still have absolutely no doubt?
3 MS O'BOYCE: No.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Then you must help me: why was this not
5 included in your CPS statement?
6 MS O'BOYCE: I do not remember. I would have thought it was
7 because I was writing the statement of the night I was
8 officially looking after her in an official capacity
9 when I wrote notes regarding her. I did not write in
10 any of her history notes of what I had seen and I did
11 not think that my opinion was a professional opinion and
12 I can only presume that those were my reasons for not
13 writing it at the time.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: But this was a murder inquiry that was being
15 conducted. Was this not something that you would have
16 thought that you wanted to make clear, that you had
17 observed?
18 MS O'BOYCE: In retrospect I think I should have done but
19 I did not.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any reason why you think that did
21 not happen?
22 MS O'BOYCE: Only the reasons that I have already given.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Just so that I am absolutely clear: you are
24 saying today that you recall the incidents that are
25 recorded in your statement vividly and you have
233
1 absolutely no doubt in your mind?
2 MS O'BOYCE: That is right.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr Sheldon.
4 MR SHELDON: Nothing further from me, sir. Thank you very
5 much, Ms O'Boyce.
6 MR GARNHAM: Sir, that concludes our business for today. As
7 you will be aware, we have slipped a little on the
8 timetable today. We have made some adjustments for
9 tomorrow and Monday and informed those directly
10 affected. Tomorrow morning, sir, I will let you have
11 details of those adjustments and we will consider
12 whether we need to make further ones for the duration of
13 next week.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I should remind everyone that tomorrow, being
15 Friday -- I am sure that you all feel that way -- we
16 will start at 9.30 and we will finish by 3 o'clock. May
17 I also take the opportunity to say that the following
18 Friday, you recall, that we will start at 9.30 but on
19 that Friday we will finish by no later than 1 o'clock.
20 I am grateful to you for your help. Thank you very much
21 indeed.
22 (5.10 pm)
23 (Hearing adjourned until 9.30 am the following day)
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