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Archived Transcript for 8 November 2001: Pages
151 to 200
151
1 is what you were told.
2 MRS QUINN: As I said to you, as sure as I can be two years
3 on.
4 MR SHELDON: The difficulty would seem to be then,
5 Mrs Quinn, that you and every other nurse present at
6 that handover was under a misapprehension as to the
7 explanation that Ms Kouao had given for how Victoria had
8 got burns to her head.
9 MRS QUINN: It would appear so but the fact of the matter
10 was the child had received burns to her head in
11 a questionable manner.
12 MR SHELDON: Certainly, but you were under the impression,
13 as were the other nurses, that Victoria had got a kettle
14 of boiling water and poured it over her head and that
15 that was the explanation the mother was attempting to
16 advance, when that was not the case at all.
17 MRS QUINN: I am sorry, could you repeat the question?
18 MR SHELDON: You were under the impression that the
19 explanation given by the mother was that Victoria had
20 got a kettle of boiling water and poured it over her
21 head. As we see from Dr Forlee's note at least, what
22 the mother had seemed to say was that she had heard
23 a scream from the bathroom and Victoria had poured hot
24 water over her head. Those are two different things,
25 are they not?
152
1 MRS QUINN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: You allocated Victoria's care that night to
3 Nurse Pereira, did you not?
4 MRS QUINN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: And presumably you told her to keep a close eye
6 on Victoria in light of the child protection concerns
7 that you knew existed?
8 MRS QUINN: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: You remember some discussion quite early on
10 around the fact that Victoria had been in the same
11 clothes for 48 hours. Is that right?
12 MRS QUINN: Yes.
13 MR SHELDON: Can you remember what she was wearing?
14 MRS QUINN: I do not remember what she was wearing that
15 night, no.
16 MR SHELDON: Are not children when they are admitted on to
17 the ward, if they have not brought their own pyjamas or
18 nightdress, given some sort of gown to wear?
19 MRS QUINN: They can be but that is not always necessarily
20 available for them, depending on the size.
21 MR SHELDON: We know Victoria was admitted to the North
22 Middlesex Hospital on 24th July. You say you came on
23 duty on 26th July, around about 48 hours later. We have
24 heard from Dr Forlee yesterday that she came in to
25 hospital on the 24th in a pink summer dress and no
153
1 underwear. Would she be allowed to wear the same thing
2 in bed and out for two days?
3 MRS QUINN: If there were no other clothes for her to wear
4 during the day then yes, she may well have been put in
5 the same dress. There are washing facilities on the
6 ward in order to wash clothes for the children.
7 MR SHELDON: So is it your suggestion she had been in the
8 same clothes for 48 hours but they had been washed at
9 least once during the course of that?
10 MRS QUINN: I am not suggesting anything. I am just saying
11 it is a possibility. I do not know.
12 MR SHELDON: It seems surprising on the face of it
13 Nurse Quinn, does it not, because you say in your
14 statement: "Victoria had been in the same clothes since
15 admission 48 hours ago ...". That is not something in
16 the contemporaneous notes, that is something you have
17 remembered independently two years on. Would it be
18 likely that a child on the Rainbow Ward would have been
19 allowed to wear the same dirty dress for two days after
20 admission?
21 MRS QUINN: As I said there are washing facilities on the
22 ward. The fact of the matter is it was discussed she
23 had had no clothes brought in and that the dress she was
24 wearing was the same as the one that she had on when she
25 came in.
154
1 MR SHELDON: Would she have been allowed to sleep in it or
2 would she be given something else to sleep in?
3 MRS QUINN: No, as I said to you generally children are
4 dressed during the day and put into night clothes at
5 night if there are any available.
6 MR SHELDON: So we should interpret "Victoria had been in
7 the same clothes since admission 48 hours ago" as "since
8 nobody had brought any other dresses for her to wear
9 during the day"?
10 MRS QUINN: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: One of the first things Nurse Pereira did was
12 to give Victoria a bath, is that right?
13 MRS QUINN: I cannot recall if it was the first thing she
14 did, no.
15 MR SHELDON: No, one of the first things I said. It does
16 not really matter but the point is she noticed some
17 marks during the course of that bath, did she not?
18 MRS QUINN: She did, yes.
19 MR SHELDON: She reported them to you?
20 MRS QUINN: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: You went and had a look at them?
22 MRS QUINN: She brought the child into the office.
23 MR SHELDON: And you noticed a swollen and bruised arm?
24 MRS QUINN: Yes.
25 MR SHELDON: Old scars?
155
1 MRS QUINN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: And what you thought to be a buckle mark on her
3 body?
4 MRS QUINN: It was something we felt could possibly have
5 been a buckle mark.
6 MR SHELDON: All very significant things in the context of
7 a child who was thought to be abused.
8 MRS QUINN: Yes, and they were pointed out to Dr Reynders
9 filling out the CP forms at the time or the body map at
10 the time.
11 MR SHELDON: Could you have a look at volume 37, page 262
12 please. We can see there a note from Nurse Pereira
13 about halfway down the page timed at 10.50:
14 "Anna bathed and head shampooed. Sore all over
15 body."
16 That is 26th July so that is presumably the occasion
17 you remember?
18 MRS QUINN: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: No note there of any of the injuries. Can you
20 account for that?
21 MRS QUINN: No, I cannot.
22 MR SHELDON: And if we go to page 275, no note on either the
23 25th or the 26th July of those injuries.
24 MRS QUINN: No.
25 MR SHELDON: Can you account for that?
156
1 MRS QUINN: No, I cannot.
2 MR SHELDON: You said -- and I had understood you to say
3 something slightly different in your statement just
4 now -- that Dr Reynders was filling out the forms, child
5 protection forms whilst you were talking to him about
6 your concerns. Is that right?
7 MRS QUINN: Dr Reynders was in the office, yes, with the
8 child protection forms and the notes.
9 MR SHELDON: I see. Do you mention that in your statement,
10 that he was filling out those forms in the office whilst
11 you were talking to him?
12 MRS QUINN: No.
13 MR SHELDON: Why not?
14 MRS QUINN: I do not know why not. "We informed the Senior
15 House Officer on duty, Dr Reynders, of these findings".
16 MR SHELDON: Yes, and that would have been the place I might
17 have expected to see, "And he filled out the child
18 protection forms in my presence in response", but it is
19 not there is it?
20 MRS QUINN: No.
21 MR SHELDON: Is that something you have remembered since you
22 made your statement?
23 MRS QUINN: That I cannot answer. That is something that
24 I just recall. When I recalled it I cannot tell you.
25 MR SHELDON: You cannot help us as to when that recollection
157
1 arrived with you?
2 MRS QUINN: No, I do not know whether it is a recollection
3 I have had prior to today or whether that is something
4 that has come to me today.
5 MR SHELDON: Did you ask Victoria how she came by the marks
6 you saw on her?
7 MRS QUINN: No.
8 MR SHELDON: Why not?
9 MRS QUINN: Because it is not necessarily practice to ask
10 a child late on in the evening about marks that we were
11 suspicious of.
12 MR SHELDON: The way in which you prefaced that question
13 seems to imply that you would have been prepared to talk
14 to her about it at another time of day. Was that right?
15 MRS QUINN: No.
16 MR SHELDON: You would never have sought to talk to her
17 about them?
18 MRS QUINN: Not on my own, no.
19 MR SHELDON: Who would you have needed with you?
20 MRS QUINN: It would have needed to have been done in a more
21 controlled manner.
22 MR SHELDON: You have got Dr Reynders there filling out the
23 child protection forms and --
24 MRS QUINN: As I said it was late at night.
25 MR SHELDON: -- and you are all in your private office.
158
1 MRS QUINN: It was late at night.
2 MR SHELDON: Did you arrange another time in the proper
3 environment to pose those questions?
4 MRS QUINN: As I say, no we did not.
5 MR SHELDON: Paragraph 13 of your statement you also
6 indicate you had concerns about the fact that the
7 injuries to Victoria's head seemed to be inconsistent
8 with the account that you understood had been given by
9 her mother. Yes?
10 MRS QUINN: This is paragraph 13, yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Paragraph 13. You had some experience of burns
12 and plastic surgery and the burns you saw on Victoria
13 did not look as if they could have been caused in the
14 way that was being suggested.
15 MRS QUINN: No, but I also understood that to be a suspicion
16 anyway.
17 MR SHELDON: Where did you write down your suspicions?
18 MRS QUINN: I did not.
19 MR SHELDON: Did you inform a social worker of your
20 suspicions?
21 MRS QUINN: That I cannot recall.
22 MR SHELDON: If you had of got in contact with social
23 workers to relay concerns about child protection, is
24 that something you would have commonly recorded
25 somewhere?
159
1 MRS QUINN: I would not have given necessarily my personal
2 opinion if the opinion of the hospital was already that
3 the burns were suspicious.
4 MR SHELDON: I see. But as of the night of 26th July you
5 had seen marks on the body that you thought were
6 indicative of non-accidental injury?
7 MRS QUINN: Yes.
8 MR SHELDON: You were suspicious about the head injury and
9 you knew that Dr Reynders shared your suspicions?
10 MRS QUINN: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Did you tell anybody?
12 MRS QUINN: It would have been -- I would have told people
13 at handover the next morning, yes.
14 MR SHELDON: You seem to indicate in an answer to a previous
15 question that you might have told a social worker but
16 you are not sure. Was that the position?
17 MRS QUINN: I think I have misunderstood what you were
18 asking me because I know I did inform the social worker
19 of Victoria's injury. Are you asking me would I have
20 informed somebody that night?
21 MR SHELDON: Have a look at page 275 of volume 37, please.
22 We have there a note dated 26th July 1999. Do you know
23 who wrote that incidentally? I cannot read the
24 signature.
25 MRS QUINN: Staff Nurse Sharon Jones it looks like.
160
1 MR SHELDON: She wrote:
2 "Social worker referral made, spoke with Karen
3 Johns, (Hospital Social Worker), doctors [and then an
4 arrow], nurses to contact social work department again,
5 if it is thought that injuries are non-accidental..."
6 Did you contact the Social Work Department to say
7 that in your view the injuries were non-accidental?
8 MRS QUINN: Not on the night of the 26th, no.
9 MR SHELDON: At any time prior to the 3rd August 1999 and
10 the fax we have already seen?
11 MRS QUINN: No.
12 MR SHELDON: Why not?
13 MRS QUINN: I do not know.
14 MR SHELDON: You also recall during the course of the night
15 of 26th July seeing Victoria behave in what you thought
16 Nurse Pereira actively described as a master/servant
17 manner when her mother visited; is that right?
18 MRS QUINN: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: I think you have indicated already that the
20 reason that is not in the critical incident log is when
21 you went to the critical incident log you had seen
22 Nurse Pereira had written something identical in respect
23 of an event the previous night.
24 MRS QUINN: Yes, but I cannot recall whether I thought it
25 was the previous night or whether it had been that
161
1 night.
2 MR SHELDON: I see, so it is possible that Nurse Pereira's
3 note had been made earlier on on the night that you saw
4 the same thing?
5 MRS QUINN: It could be possible that I thought that, yes.
6 MR SHELDON: You went in and spoke to Kouao at some stage,
7 did you not?
8 MRS QUINN: I did, yes.
9 MR SHELDON: And you noticed when you went in that Victoria
10 had wet herself?
11 MRS QUINN: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: You noticed that Ms Kouao had made no effort to
13 clean her daughter up?
14 MRS QUINN: No, she had not.
15 MR SHELDON: You must have been sorely tempted to tell her
16 to clean her up, must you not?
17 MRS QUINN: No.
18 MR SHELDON: You said you were shocked at her insensitivity
19 towards her daughter.
20 MRS QUINN: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: You thought that she had behaved in an entirely
22 inappropriate way towards her daughter.
23 MRS QUINN: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: By allowing her to stand there in a wet dress.
25 MRS QUINN: Yes.
162
1 MR SHELDON: Unattended for what seemed to be about ten
2 minutes or so.
3 MRS QUINN: Yes.
4 MR SHELDON: Did it not occur to you to say, "Why have you
5 not cleaned your daughter up"?
6 MRS QUINN: I think you will find I did say that I asked the
7 child if she needed a wee wee because I noticed she was
8 wet.
9 MR SHELDON: I am not asking you what you said to the child;
10 I am asking you what you said to the mother.
11 MRS QUINN: In order to bring to the mother's attention she
12 was wet. No, I did not say anything to the mother.
13 MR SHELDON: Why not?
14 MRS QUINN: Because it is not my business to antagonise
15 parents.
16 MR SHELDON: You thought she was dishonest, did you not,
17 Kouao?
18 MRS QUINN: I felt that she was, yes.
19 MR SHELDON: Did you ask her to give her account of how some
20 of the injuries you had seen on Victoria's body had been
21 sustained?
22 MRS QUINN: No, I did not.
23 MR SHELDON: Did you ask her about the circumstances by
24 which Victoria had come to be scalded on her head?
25 MRS QUINN: No, I did not.
163
1 MR SHELDON: Why not?
2 MRS QUINN: Because it is -- it was not appropriate at that
3 time for fear of alienating Kouao, because we are taught
4 that if we have suspicions then it is dealt with at an
5 appropriate time in order -- when there are forces in
6 place that can help us.
7 MR SHELDON: Can you be more specific about what you mean by
8 that?
9 MRS QUINN: Basically, what I mean is if -- I was not going
10 to say anything to this lady in the middle of the night
11 when we have fears, and have had experiences of, people
12 absconding then with their children.
13 MR SHELDON: That was what you were afraid of, was it?
14 MRS QUINN: That is what I was afraid of.
15 MR SHELDON: That is why you did not say anything to her?
16 MRS QUINN: That would be why.
17 MR SHELDON: You were preserving good relations with Kouao
18 because you were frightened she would take her child and
19 run off?
20 MRS QUINN: It is something that has happened before, yes.
21 MR SHELDON: Let us review where we are by the end of the
22 night shift of 26th/27th July. You believe Victoria has
23 been abused, yes?
24 MRS QUINN: Yes.
25 MR SHELDON: You know Dr Reynders at least shares your view?
164
1 MRS QUINN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: You have discovered what you thought might be
3 belt buckle marks on Victoria's body?
4 MRS QUINN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: You have seen her mother act towards her in a
6 way you regard as shockingly insensitive?
7 MRS QUINN: Yes.
8 MR SHELDON: You are aware of a master servant appearance in
9 the relationship between them?
10 MRS QUINN: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: You are aware that Victoria wet herself in what
12 you thought to be her mother's presence?
13 MRS QUINN: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: You think that the mother is suspicious and
15 untruthful?
16 MRS QUINN: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: You strongly suspect they are not actually
18 mother and daughter at all?
19 MRS QUINN: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: You have even given some thought to the fact
21 that Victoria might be a slave brought over for Kouao's
22 benefit?
23 MRS QUINN: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: You have not written a single note on that
25 night.
165
1 MRS QUINN: No.
2 MR SHELDON: That is remarkable is it not?
3 MRS QUINN: It is, yes.
4 MR SHELDON: Can you offer any explanation for it?
5 MRS QUINN: No, I cannot.
6 MR SHELDON: Might an explanation be that, entirely
7 understandably, given what you now know of the
8 circumstances of Victoria's death, you have attributed
9 some more significance to some of these events than you
10 really attributed to them at the time?
11 MRS QUINN: No.
12 MR SHELDON: You are confident, are you, that you were just
13 as concerned then, at the time, as you record being in
14 your statement to this inquiry?
15 MRS QUINN: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: You must have been aware, how valuable that
17 information would have been to somebody looking over the
18 documents in this case and deciding what to do next,
19 must you not?
20 MRS QUINN: Yes, and I had mentioned it to people.
21 MR SHELDON: You told Dr Rossiter about it, did you not?
22 MRS QUINN: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: Can I just clear up one point arising out of
24 page 6 of your statement. Unfortunately, there is
25 a duplication of some of the paragraph numbers. It
166
1 seems to be the case that you record both in
2 paragraph 17 on page 6, talking to Dr Rossiter on one of
3 her subsequent ward rounds and pointing out the
4 inappropriate behaviour between Kouao and her mother.
5 Is that right?
6 MRS QUINN: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: Then on paragraph 20 at the bottom of that page
8 you recall the 1st August 1999, say you were the nurse
9 in charge of the shift so you would have been present on
10 Dr Rossiter's ward round and you remember having
11 a discussion about your concerns?
12 MRS QUINN: Yes.
13 MR SHELDON: A simple point: was there one discussion or
14 two?
15 MRS QUINN: That I cannot recall.
16 MR SHELDON: So the discussion that you refer to in
17 paragraph 17 might have been the one that you also refer
18 to in paragraph 20?
19 MRS QUINN: It may well be. I cannot recall.
20 MR SHELDON: So there may have been a three or four day
21 delay before you brought these concerns to Dr Rossiter's
22 attention or there may not?
23 MRS QUINN: As I say, I cannot recall.
24 MR SHELDON: What was Dr Rossiter's approach to this case as
25 far as you were aware?
167
1 MRS QUINN: As far as I can recall she was very concerned
2 about Victoria.
3 MR SHELDON: She was very concerned about Victoria?
4 MRS QUINN: The fact that she had been abused, yes.
5 MR SHELDON: What did you think she was going to do about
6 it?
7 MRS QUINN: I cannot say -- I cannot remember what I thought
8 at the time. Generally there are procedures, as you
9 have rightly pointed out to me here, that we follow.
10 MR SHELDON: Can you recall whether or not you thought,
11 having discussed the matter with Dr Rossiter, that your
12 concerns were going to be adequately addressed?
13 MRS QUINN: I cannot recall exactly but I would assume so,
14 yes. I never had cause to doubt before.
15 MR SHELDON: That would be an explanation why you did not do
16 anything else about it until the facts of the --
17 MRS QUINN: It could have been an explanation, yes.
18 MR SHELDON: Generally in relation to your observations of
19 Victoria, moving on from the night of the 26th/27th, you
20 generally thought there was something not quite right
21 about the appearance of her in relation to Kouao, is
22 that right?
23 MRS QUINN: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: You, in paragraph 19 of page 6, recall that she
25 displayed in general terms signs of anxious attachment.
168
1 MRS QUINN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: That is a term of some significance to people
3 who know more about these things than I do, is it not?
4 MRS QUINN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: Anxious attachment is a significant indicator
6 of abuse?
7 MRS QUINN: Yes.
8 MR SHELDON: You also remember, from paragraph 19 I think,
9 that she used to eat an awful lot?
10 MRS QUINN: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: And that that can sometimes be a sign of
12 neglect?
13 MRS QUINN: Yes, that is not necessarily something
14 I witnessed but it was certainly something that I was
15 told.
16 MR SHELDON: You did not make any notes about those matters
17 either, did you?
18 MRS QUINN: No.
19 MR SHELDON: But you are sure that they were things that
20 occurred to you at the time rather than things that have
21 occurred to you since looking back on the case in light
22 of what has happened?
23 MRS QUINN: I am sure they occurred to me at the time, yes.
24 MR SHELDON: I would like to turn now to your conversation
25 with Lisa Arthurworrey that prompted the fax that we
169
1 have looked at briefly already.
2 Your recollection of that conversation was that it
3 was a fairly full briefing by you of the concerns felt
4 in the hospital about Victoria, was that right?
5 MRS QUINN: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: About ten minutes or so, you think it took?
7 MRS QUINN: I think. I cannot be sure.
8 MR SHELDON: We know you wrote a fax which we will come on
9 to in a moment but I would like to deal first with what
10 you said on the phone. Are you happy that you informed
11 Lisa Arthurworrey during the course of that conversation
12 of all the concerns that were felt on the ward about
13 Victoria?
14 MRS QUINN: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: Including the one that Victoria might not be
16 Kouao's daughter?
17 MRS QUINN: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: Could I ask to you have a look at
19 Lisa Arthurworrey's note about that conversation in
20 volume 6, page 66. You can see at the bottom of that
21 page -- unfortunately this is rather illogically
22 paginated -- in the bottom left-hand corner there is
23 a note: "Telephone call to North Middlesex" and then
24 a telephone number. If you then turn to page 65, so in
25 the opposite direction to what you might think, you see
170
1 at the top there "informed the following" and then we
2 have a series of notes about what Lisa Arthurworrey at
3 least was under the impression you were telling her.
4 Halfway down that page is a little dash next to the word
5 "hospital are satisfied". Can you see that?
6 MRS QUINN: No.
7 MR SHELDON: Along the left-hand side of page 06/065 are
8 a number of oblong boxes with "Type" and "With" in them.
9 Do you see that?
10 MRS QUINN: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: If you follow down that line you will see
12 a number of dashes in the box labelled either "Type" or
13 "With". Do you see those dashes?
14 MRS QUINN: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: Fifth one down, it is next to the word
16 "hospital" and then "are satisfied". Do you see that?
17 MRS QUINN: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: "Hospital are satisfied with the explanation
19 given by Anna's mother re her burns. Explanation was
20 that Anna who had been suffering from scabies had poured
21 hot water from a kettle over her head. She did this to
22 relief the itching."
23 Did you tell her you were happy with Kouao's
24 explanation of how Victoria had been scalded?
25 MRS QUINN: No.
171
1 MR SHELDON: So that is evidence of a misunderstanding on
2 Lisa Arthurworrey's part, is it? You were telling her
3 precisely the opposite, were you?
4 MRS QUINN: As far as I am aware -- as far as I am
5 concerned, yes, I was telling her the opposite.
6 MR SHELDON: You told her that the hospital were far from
7 satisfied with the explanation that Kouao was --
8 MRS QUINN: I do not know if I said we were far from
9 satisfied. I said there were some concerns regarding
10 how she received the burns.
11 MR SHELDON: I should put to you the relevant section of
12 Lisa Arthurworrey's statement because I am sure your
13 statement will be put to her. It is in volume 2 of the
14 witness bundle at paragraph 85. Page 70, please,
15 paragraph 85. This is Lisa Arthurworrey's statement to
16 this Inquiry and at paragraph 85 at the top of page 70
17 she says:
18 "From my conversation with Nurse Quinn I established
19 that the hospital did not consider the scalding injury
20 to be a non-accidental injury but there were old marks.
21 That may be the result of non-accidental injury, neglect
22 issues and concerns about Victoria's relationship with
23 Kouao."
24 In relation to the scalding injury alone is she
25 wrong about that?
172
1 MRS QUINN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: So if I were to put it to you that in fact you
3 did say to Lisa Arthurworrey that you were happy with
4 the explanation of the scalding injury, what would you
5 say to me?
6 MRS QUINN: I would say that I was not happy and I never
7 have been.
8 MR SHELDON: Could you have a look at volume 37 again
9 please, page 275. This is the critical incident log
10 again and near the bottom is a note written by you, the
11 second sentence of which is:
12 "She [Lisa Arthurworrey] has requested I fax the CP1
13 form to her and any concerns we may have."
14 MRS QUINN: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: Did you get the impression from that request
16 that she wanted to know all the concerns that you had?
17 MRS QUINN: I got the impression that she wanted to know any
18 additional ones to the ones I had been speaking to her
19 about.
20 MR SHELDON: I see. Your impression of the conversation was
21 that she only wanted you to fax her details of things
22 you had not said on the phone.
23 MRS QUINN: No. I understood that along -- aside from the
24 child protection forms she wanted any concerns that we
25 as nursing staff may have.
173
1 MR SHELDON: Could we have a look then at your fax which is
2 on page 73 of that bundle. Running through your
3 statement and the concerns that you record as having at
4 the time in your statement, firstly at paragraph 10 of
5 your statement to this Inquiry you said that you were
6 concerned that the burns, the scalds to the head were
7 not self-inflicted, and that they might be
8 non-accidental injury; do you remember that?
9 MRS QUINN: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: Does that concern appear in this fax?
11 MRS QUINN: No.
12 MR SHELDON: The expert evidence, if I can put it like that,
13 that you had or from your experience of plastic surgery
14 and the absence of splash marks on the shoulders for
15 example, is that anywhere in this fax?
16 MRS QUINN: No.
17 MR SHELDON: Is there any reference in this fax to the marks
18 you saw on 26th July and in particular the belt buckle
19 mark?
20 MRS QUINN: No, but they would have been on the CP forms on
21 the body map.
22 MR SHELDON: Is there any reference in this fax to the fact
23 that Dr Reynders shared your concerns about
24 non-accidental injury?
25 MRS QUINN: No.
174
1 MR SHELDON: Any reference in it to the fact that Kouao
2 struck you as being possibly deceitful and certainly
3 withholding information?
4 MRS QUINN: No.
5 MR SHELDON: Any reference to the suspicion that Victoria
6 might be a slave or that Kouao was not her real mother?
7 MRS QUINN: No.
8 MR SHELDON: Any reference to the fact that Dr~Rossiter was
9 very concerned that Victoria might be abused?
10 MRS QUINN: There is evidence here that Dr Rossiter must
11 have been concerned because on her ward round it has
12 "anxious attachment".
13 MR SHELDON: Absolutely, thank you. Why have you only put
14 some of your concerns in that fax and not all of them?
15 MRS QUINN: My understanding at the time is that it was any
16 additional information on top of information that was on
17 the CP forms, the body maps, and any marks and burns
18 would have been on the body map.
19 MR SHELDON: If I was to suggest to you that the
20 contemporaneous fax we have, page 73 of bundle 37, is
21 a more accurate reflection of the concerns you really
22 felt at the time than is your Inquiry statement, how
23 would you respond to that?
24 MRS QUINN: I would say that is not accurate.
25 MR SHELDON: So your Inquiry statement is a more accurate
175
1 account of all the concerns you had at the time than
2 this fax?
3 I am extremely sorry Mrs Quinn, the machine is not
4 working.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: This is dreadfully inconvenient. Can we just
6 pause a moment, please. (Pause).
7 It is a long 10 seconds that I was told it would
8 take Mr Sheldon. I am assured we will not lose anything
9 so if we do I assure you that Smith Bernal will hear
10 about it, so let us assume that the 10 seconds will
11 catch up fairly quickly and let us proceed. Please put
12 that question again that you were --
13 MR SHELDON: That might be easier said than done.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I am in your hands.
15 MR SHELDON: The point I was making to you Mrs Quinn, and
16 I think I got to the end of it before we broke, was that
17 what you wrote in the fax on 3rd August, 1999 is a more
18 accurate reflection of the concerns you actually felt at
19 the time about Victoria than is what you have written in
20 your statement to this Inquiry, and can I trouble you
21 for a repeat of your answer to that, please?
22 MRS QUINN: I think taken as a whole along with the
23 telephone conversation I had with Lisa Arthurworrey,
24 then as I recall to the best of my ability the
25 conversation I had with her, as a whole that would give
176
1 an accurate reflection of the concerns that we had.
2 MR SHELDON: In that case it would be fair to say, would it
3 not, that you failed to pass on to Lisa Arthurworrey all
4 of the concerns that you did have?
5 MRS QUINN: I passed on that I felt that there were old
6 marks on her body. I passed on the information that is
7 in the fax and I passed on that we were unhappy about
8 the burns and that we had serious concerns about the
9 child.
10 MR SHELDON: It was not just the fax you sent, you sent
11 other information, medical information from the
12 hospital.
13 MRS QUINN: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: Is it right you cannot remember exactly what
15 you sent her?
16 MRS QUINN: No, I cannot remember exactly.
17 MR SHELDON: I need to put another passage of her statement
18 to you. I will not get it turned up, I will simply read
19 it out because it is just two sentences. She says at
20 paragraph 89 of her statement, for your note, sir, that:
21 "Whilst possible emotional abuse was specifically
22 mentioned, neither Nurse Quinn's note of 3rd August nor
23 the NMH medical information referred to physical abuse.
24 There was no reference to old marks, to a belt buckle
25 mark or to loop wire marks or to non-accidental injury."
177
1 I accept that you cannot remember exactly what you
2 said, but are you able to say Lisa Arthurworrey is wrong
3 about that and you did send her information relating to
4 physical abuse?
5 MRS QUINN: I would have assumed that I had sent her the
6 body maps which would have had old -- the old marks on
7 it.
8 MR SHELDON: At the end of your conversation with her on
9 3rd August, were you content that she had taken on board
10 all of your concerns?
11 MRS QUINN: I was, yes.
12 MR SHELDON: And you expected that she would carry out
13 a plan of action in response to them, is that right?
14 MRS QUINN: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: And you were satisfied that she did do that
16 because she called back later and told you she was going
17 to do a home visit with the police?
18 MRS QUINN: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: Is that what you envisaged was going to happen
20 when you faxed the material off to her?
21 MRS QUINN: I had no -- I did not envisage anything, I just
22 envisaged that she was going to take it on board and she
23 was going to do -- she was going to take it over from
24 her end.
25 MR SHELDON: I see. Did you regard that plan of action as
178
1 being appropriate?
2 MRS QUINN: A home visit?
3 MR SHELDON: Yes.
4 MRS QUINN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: Could you see all of the hospital's concerns
6 that you would have identified being addressed by that
7 means?
8 MRS QUINN: I think that is a very difficult question for me
9 to answer two years on. From the conversation I had
10 with Lisa Arthurworrey I was very content that she had
11 taken on board my concerns.
12 MR SHELDON: When did you become aware of Victoria's
13 discharge?
14 MRS QUINN: I cannot recall exactly but it would have been
15 when I returned to duty. I worked part-time. I only
16 did two 12-hour shifts a week.
17 MR SHELDON: Do you recall being surprised to learn she had
18 been sent home with Kouao?
19 MRS QUINN: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: Did you do anything about it?
21 MRS QUINN: I had been told there had been a home visit done
22 and it had been found to be satisfactory.
23 MR SHELDON: Did you complain to anybody?
24 MRS QUINN: No.
25 MR SHELDON: Were you aware of any discussions about
179
1 Victoria's case on the ward after she had been
2 discharged?
3 MRS QUINN: I would find it very difficult to recall two
4 years ago.
5 MR SHELDON: You do not remember being involved in any post
6 discharge conversations with anybody on the ward about
7 her case?
8 MRS QUINN: I do not remember, no.
9 MR SHELDON: Do you recall ever having been contacted by the
10 police prior to Victoria's death and the murder
11 investigation? Could I ask you to hold on a moment,
12 Mrs Quinn because I think we are having some more
13 problems.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Mr Sheldon, a little technical matter
15 but we can proceed now.
16 MR SHELDON: The question I asked Mrs Quinn was were you
17 ever contacted by the police about Victoria's case prior
18 to her murder?
19 MRS QUINN: No.
20 MR SHELDON: Three final brief points. Was Victoria ever
21 incontinent of faeces whilst she was on the ward under
22 your supervision?
23 MRS QUINN: That is not something I can recall. That does
24 not mean she was not.
25 MR SHELDON: Can you turn to page 108 of volume 37. The top
180
1 two notes on that page, both dated 4th August 1999.
2 Have you any idea who wrote those?
3 MRS QUINN: No.
4 MR SHELDON: And the last point, page 264 of that same
5 volume. At the very top there is a note dated
6 27th June -- I presume it should be July -- 1999: "VA
7 not done?" Can you see that note?
8 MRS QUINN: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Did you write that?
10 MRS QUINN: No.
11 MR SHELDON: Do you know what it means?
12 MRS QUINN: No.
13 MR SHELDON: Sir, I do not know if you were planning to have
14 a short break this afternoon. If you were this would be
15 a convenient moment not least because I have just been
16 handed another series of questions to be put to this
17 witness.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Right, okay. I had a somewhat different plan
19 but my plans are often changed so we will take a break
20 then, but I am anxious to secure two things, that first
21 of all Nurse Quinn you should not talk to anyone, except
22 perhaps your advocator in this period, but if you need
23 to use the facilities the witness assistant will escort
24 you, and I do not want any conversation with the other
25 witnesses that may follow on this afternoon. We will
181
1 now have a break until 3.55.
2 (3.45 pm)
3 (A short break)
4 (4.00 pm)
5 MR SHELDON: I have been given a number of additional
6 questions to put to Mrs Quinn which I will do so
7 shortly.
8 Mrs Quinn could you have a look please at volume 5
9 of the documents bundle, page 259, please. This is
10 a memo written to Lisa Arthurworrey by Karen Johns and
11 you will see in the second paragraph a heading
12 "Discharge Plans" then the following.
13 "I have been informed by the Nurse in Charge on
14 Rainbow Ward that Anna is now ready for discharge and
15 the ward would like this to happen as soon as possible.
16 You may wish to contact the ward directly to discuss
17 social services involvement. The nurse in charge today
18 is Isobel [telephone numbers]. I should also mention
19 that Anna's scabies has been successfully treated and is
20 therefor no longer active."
21 Firstly are you the Isobel that is referred to
22 there?
23 MRS QUINN: I have no way of knowing. I was the only Isobel
24 on Rainbow Ward so I would assume that it would be me,
25 yes.
182
1 MR SHELDON: That is helpful. Then do you recall telling
2 Karen Johns at any stage that Anna was ready for
3 discharge and that you would like this to happen as soon
4 as possible?
5 MRS QUINN: As I said in my statement I have no recollection
6 of conversations with Karen Johns.
7 MR SHELDON: You said in answer to one of my early questions
8 that the requirement set out in the Child Protection
9 Manual, and in particular page 241, that child
10 protection concerns should be noted on the CP6 form did
11 not necessarily apply because sometimes they could be
12 noted on a critical incident log. Is that right? Can
13 you have a look at volume 39, please. Page 241. Can
14 you look again at the paragraph we read together earlier
15 which is two-thirds of the way down the page and starts
16 with the number 2:
17 "Information relevant to child protection including
18 accidents on the ward, parental visiting, decisions of a
19 planning/strategy meeting or case conference, should be
20 recorded on form CP6."
21 Were you aware of that requirement in July 1999?
22 MRS QUINN: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: Was it mandatory as far as you were aware for
24 all child protection concerns to be recorded on the form
25 CP6?
183
1 MRS QUINN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: You indicated to me at the beginning of your
3 evidence that some information could be put on the
4 critical incident log instead. Do you not recall saying
5 that?
6 MRS QUINN: I do recall saying that.
7 MR SHELDON: And is it true?
8 MRS QUINN: According to this, no.
9 MR SHELDON: Do you say that what a nurse ought to do in
10 July or August 1999 on Rainbow Ward if they see anything
11 relevant to child protection is to put it on the CP6
12 form?
13 MRS QUINN: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: Thank you. Do you accept the general
15 proposition that it is important when a child comes on
16 to a ward, particularly if there are suspicions that
17 they have been abused, that some effort is made to
18 obtain notes relating to previous admissions either to
19 that hospital or to another hospital?
20 MRS QUINN: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: Were you aware of any of Victoria's notes from
22 the time she was an in-patient at Central Middlesex
23 Hospital also in July 1999 ever being obtained?
24 MRS QUINN: I have no recollection of that at all.
25 MR SHELDON: Do you think that that is something that should
184
1 have been done so that you could have been aware, as the
2 nurse in charge and one of the nurses looking after her,
3 of what had been seen at Central Middlesex Hospital?
4 MRS QUINN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: Did you fax a copy of the critical incident log
6 to Lisa Arthurworrey on 3rd August 1999?
7 MRS QUINN: As I say, I cannot recall exactly what I faxed.
8 MR SHELDON: So maybe you did, maybe you did not?
9 MRS QUINN: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much Mr Sheldon. Mr Mason,
12 please.
13 MR MASON: Thank you sir. First of all Mrs Quinn can I say
14 thank you very much for coming over from Ireland with
15 your young family. I know it is difficult enough for
16 everyone to attend this Inquiry but perhaps you have had
17 a particular problem and we are very grateful to you.
18 MRS QUINN: Thank you.
19 MR MASON: Can I start with please just a few questions,
20 a general question about nurses' use of language, if
21 I may. We had two expressions used yesterday. One was
22 a nurse looking after a patient and the alternative
23 version we heard was a nurse having care of a patient.
24 First of all, are you familiar with those expressions?
25 MRS QUINN: Yes.
185
1 MR MASON: Do they mean the same to you?
2 MRS QUINN: Not necessarily, no. Looking after can mean
3 they have been allocated that patient.
4 MR MASON: Looking after a patient, is that an expression
5 used when you are allocated a patient?
6 MRS QUINN: Yes.
7 MR MASON: What about if you have the care of a patient,
8 does that also mean you are allocated to a patient?
9 MRS QUINN: It can do, yes.
10 MR MASON: For example, on the 26th when you came on and
11 helped Staff Nurse Pereira with her observation, would
12 you have described yourself as looking after Victoria or
13 having care of her during that time?
14 MRS QUINN: No.
15 MR MASON: Thank you. Another question you were asked about
16 was you were asked why did you not contact a social
17 worker between the 26th July and your conversation with
18 Lisa Arthurworrey on the 3rd. I want to you have
19 a look, please, at the off duty and can you tell me if
20 you were on duty between those two days?
21 MRS QUINN: I was on on the Sunday 1st and I did not return
22 to day duty after that until the 3rd.
23 MR MASON: So you were not on duty during the week?
24 MRS QUINN: I was not on duty Monday to Friday until
25 3rd August.
186
1 MR MASON: There has been a bit of discussion about what
2 documents you may or may not have faxed to
3 Lisa Arthurworrey. If I may very briefly take you to
4 her statement, it is witness bundle 2, page 70. At
5 paragraph 86 this is what Lisa Arthurworrey says that
6 you sent her and what I will do is run through it
7 quickly with you to see whether or not you agree with
8 what she says. I know you cannot say for sure but do
9 you accept you sent her your handwritten note of
10 a two-page letter?
11 MRS QUINN: Yes.
12 MR MASON: The head sketches done by Dr Forlee?
13 MRS QUINN: I would assume so, yes.
14 MR MASON: The body sketch, the body maps?
15 MRS QUINN: Yes.
16 MR MASON: The paediatric assessment form?
17 MRS QUINN: Yes.
18 MR MASON: The child protection medical form?
19 MRS QUINN: As I say, I would assume so.
20 MR MASON: So you accept her account of having all those
21 documents?
22 MRS QUINN: Yes.
23 MR MASON: Thank you. You put in your note that you were
24 asked to send CP1. Would you have written that as
25 because you were specifically asked for CP1, or because
187
1 you were asked for child protection forms and you
2 translated that into the name of the document?
3 MRS QUINN: No, I would have written that because that was
4 what I was asked for specifically.
5 MR MASON: Two last matters. The body map drawings. As far
6 as you were concerned were they made solely because of
7 concerns about possible physical abuse or was there
8 another reason or a different reason or two reasons?
9 MRS QUINN: As far as I am aware it was because we had
10 concerns of physical abuse and because of the burns to
11 her head.
12 MR MASON: Well, we already had the drawings of the head.
13 MRS QUINN: Well in that case then yes, it would be, there
14 would be no other reason for doing them.
15 MR MASON: One last question. Did you think that this fax
16 you were sending to Lisa Arthurworrey might be your last
17 sort of major contact, chance to send information to
18 social services, or were you expecting that you might,
19 or hoping to be asked to attend a case conference or
20 similar, planning a meeting --
21 MRS QUINN: I would have assumed considering that was the
22 initial contact with the social worker that we would
23 have had more contact.
24 MR MASON: So in your view was the fax a continuation of
25 a process already?
188
1 MRS QUINN: It was a continuation of a process already
2 started but certainly not the end.
3 MR MASON: Thank you very much.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Mason. Nurse Quinn, just
5 a couple of things, please. You mentioned that
6 Dr Reynders did the body map in front of you in your
7 office, I think you said.
8 MRS QUINN: I believe so, yes. To the best of -- yes, he
9 was sitting by the desk and we had the child on the
10 other side of the office.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Could you tell me what time of day that was?
12 MRS QUINN: It would have been late evening. It would have
13 been before midnight and we come on duty at least 8 so
14 it could have been anywhere between 8 and midnight.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you tell me what date it was?
16 MRS QUINN: I was on duty on the 26th so it would have been
17 the 26th.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: So in your view it was between 8 and midnight
19 on the 26th July?
20 MRS QUINN: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: When were you next on duty? You have the
22 advantage of me and you have some information.
23 MRS QUINN: Sunday, 1st August.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you on duty on 4th August from that --
25 MRS QUINN: No, I was on duty on 3rd August.
189
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you on duty on 5th August, by chance?
2 MRS QUINN: No, I was not on duty again until the 7th.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: I am only asking for information, not --
4 I wonder if you could be shown 37/108. Is it 37 in
5 front of you?
6 MRS QUINN: No, it is 2.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: 37/108. Just if you could help me, that is
8 all. The first entry at the top of the page, I just
9 wonder if you could advise me on who that signature is?
10 MRS QUINN: No, I cannot.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. When you spoke to
12 Miss Arthurworrey on the telephone, this was
13 a substantial telephone call of ten minutes?
14 MRS QUINN: Well, I felt that it was, yes.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, well I am accepting your evidence.
16 Could you just share with me what you talked about for
17 ten minutes? I do not mean speak for ten minutes,
18 I mean just give me an idea of what you actually talked
19 about.
20 MRS QUINN: We would have discussed Victoria and, as I say,
21 we would have discussed the feelings that we had, the
22 fact that there is a suspicion of non-accidental injury,
23 the fact that we were concerned about the way she had
24 received the burns to her head, the old marks, the
25 behaviour of Kouao and Victoria together.
190
1 THE CHAIRMAN: So you shared with Miss Arthurworrey your
2 full range of concerns?
3 MRS QUINN: Yes, I did and she would have asked me questions
4 as well and discussed things with me too.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Would there have been any concerns that you
6 discussed with her that were not recorded?
7 MRS QUINN: As far as I am aware, no, apart from the
8 incident I witnessed where the child was wet and Kouao
9 had taken no notice that that had not been recorded at
10 that time.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Because when Mr Sheldon was asking you
12 questions it seemed to me that you were accepting that
13 you had formed a number of opinions and knew quite a lot
14 that were not recorded in your notes.
15 MRS QUINN: I would say probably yes, the concerns about the
16 relationship between Kouao as well.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: And what about the other things when
18 Mr Sheldon put them to you: you said that you accepted
19 they were not recorded in the notes.
20 MRS QUINN: If they were not recorded then no they were not
21 recorded and I accept that, yes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You are a very experienced nurse and trained
23 in child protection. Has it been your experience and is
24 it not your training that important matters that may
25 build up an understanding of the issues, it is important
191
1 to record these matters?
2 MRS QUINN: Yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: When Mr Mason was asking you about the
4 information that was transferred to the social worker,
5 you said -- and I wrote it down -- "I assume so". He
6 was saying did you pass this, did you pass that, and you
7 were saying "I assume so". What I need to ask you is
8 did you do it or did you not do it?
9 MRS QUINN: With regard to the CP forms, as I have stated,
10 I cannot recall what forms I sent to her. I would
11 assume they were the relevant forms because there would
12 be nothing else that I would want to send.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it possible that you only sent the fax
14 this we have seen this afternoon?
15 MRS QUINN: No.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: So you believe that there were other things
17 but you cannot tell me for definite?
18 MRS QUINN: I know for definite I would have sent the CP1
19 because that is what had been requested and my fax and
20 I would assume any other relevant information.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is it normal -- and tell me if it is
22 not -- that when a hospital passes information from
23 one -- well, to an outside agency, that that is not only
24 recorded but who passes the information is recorded?
25 MRS QUINN: Yes.
192
1 THE CHAIRMAN: So why is it difficult to tell me exactly
2 what you did?
3 MRS QUINN: Because it was not recorded what I had sent.
4 I had not recorded what I had sent.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you regard that as quite a serious
6 failure?
7 MRS QUINN: Yes.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Mr Sheldon?
9 MR SHELDON: Thank you sir, I have nothing further to ask
10 Mrs Quinn. Thank you.
11 MR GARNHAM: Sir our next witness is Lucienne Taub.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Mason, I am sorry I ought to have made it
13 plain to Nurse Quinn she should not be discussing her
14 evidence with -- I am not saying she is, I do not know,
15 but she left the room and I wonder if we could make sure
16 that --
17 MR MASON: Sir, I will make sure that she is reminded.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. I am sorry I did not
19 make that plain.
20 MS LUCIENNE TAUB (sworn)
21 MR GARNHAM: Good afternoon. Would you give the Inquiry
22 your full name.
23 MS TAUB: Lucienne Margeurite Marie Taub.
24 MR GARNHAM: And your current professional address.
25 MS TAUB: North Middlesex Hospital, Sterling Way, London.
193
1 MR GARNHAM: You have made one Inquiry statement, I think,
2 and it is at page 256 in volume 6 and a copy of it is
3 now being put in front of you. Would you be kind enough
4 to glance through it and confirm that you have signed
5 it.
6 MS TAUB: Yes.
7 MR GARNHAM: And that its contents are true.
8 MS TAUB: Yes.
9 MR GARNHAM: Are you still a sister at the North Middlesex
10 Hospital?
11 MS TAUB: Yes.
12 MR GARNHAM: I think you did formerly and still work in the
13 Specialist Care Baby Unit?
14 MS TAUB: Yes, I am a midwife unit nurse.
15 MR GARNHAM: I think it is right you were born in France but
16 you have lived in the UK since 1961?
17 MS TAUB: That is correct.
18 MR GARNHAM: I think it is also right you are fluent in
19 French, English and Italian?
20 MS TAUB: Yes.
21 MR GARNHAM: You have been a nurse since 1970 -- not quite
22 as bad as my asking your age.
23 MS TAUB: Yes. Well, I trained before that but I became
24 a midwife and a general trained nurse by 1970,
25 I finished all these qualifications.
194
1 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. We know from the evidence we have
2 heard that in the latter part of July 1999, a little
3 girl called Victoria Climbie was admitted to the North
4 Middlesex Hospital and I want to ask you a little about
5 how you came to meet her. Do you remember when it was
6 you first met her?
7 MS TAUB: I have no recollection of dates. All I know is it
8 was the summer.
9 MR GARNHAM: You say in your statement that it was July.
10 Are you confident as to the month?
11 MS TAUB: Well because I was told of the dates of admission.
12 MR GARNHAM: But not from your own recollection?
13 MS TAUB: No.
14 MR GARNHAM: Who introduced to you Victoria?
15 MS TAUB: Well nobody really, but Dr Rossiter met me once
16 and she suggested that I might visit Victoria on the
17 paediatric ward, saying that she spoke French, and
18 I just went to see her one day during my lunch break.
19 The same day actually.
20 MR GARNHAM: Why was it suggested that it might be good for
21 you to visit Victoria?
22 MS TAUB: Because she spoke French and also I was told she
23 may be abused.
24 MR GARNHAM: And it was Dr Rossiter who asked you to speak
25 to her?
195
1 MS TAUB: Yes. She did not say I have to go but she
2 suggested.
3 MR GARNHAM: Yes. You are confident, are you, that it was
4 Dr Rossiter rather than one of the nurses?
5 MS TAUB: No, it was Dr Rossiter.
6 MR GARNHAM: Do you know Nurse Beatrice Norman?
7 MS TAUB: Yes.
8 MR GARNHAM: Did she speak to you about speaking to
9 Victoria?
10 MS TAUB: No.
11 MR GARNHAM: You were, I think, asked to befriend Victoria?
12 MS TAUB: Not really, I was asked to visit her.
13 MR GARNHAM: I see. Was this intended to be a professional
14 relationship?
15 MS TAUB: Not really because I went to visit her on my own
16 time without asking anybody. I just visited her on
17 Rainbow Ward and when I -- I am not quite sure if it is
18 a locked ward, but I just went to the ward one afternoon
19 and I asked one of the nurses to show me where Victoria
20 was.
21 MR GARNHAM: But it was at the suggestion originally of
22 Dr Rossiter?
23 MS TAUB: Of Dr Rossiter, yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: I think you saw Victoria that same day, the
25 same day Dr Rossiter suggested that you saw her, during
196
1 your lunch break?
2 MS TAUB: I went during my lunch break, yes.
3 MR GARNHAM: What is your first memory of Victoria?
4 MS TAUB: Well when I went up, because she was a child
5 I just kissed her, and straight away she was -- well,
6 just she sat on my knees and just like a child with
7 another person. She was straight away a loving child.
8 This is my first impression.
9 MR GARNHAM: Her appearance, what did she look like?
10 MS TAUB: She looked -- her skin was very chalky. She had
11 some like appeared to be burns and clumps of hair
12 missing. Her skin was in poor condition but I did not
13 know the condition, the medical condition.
14 MR GARNHAM: No. And your role was not to be a medical one?
15 MS TAUB: No, no.
16 MR GARNHAM: Did you notice anything about her arms and her
17 hands?
18 MS TAUB: All that her skin was in very poor condition and
19 she appeared to have like little -- I know I should not
20 say but this is what I thought. Like she had some
21 cigarette mark which probably were due to the scarring
22 of her skin, of whatever condition she had.
23 MR GARNHAM: I think she was pleased to have someone who
24 spoke French to talk to.
25 MS TAUB: Yes.
197
1 MR GARNHAM: What did you talk about?
2 MS TAUB: About anything, really. I asked her how long she
3 had been in England, where she lived in France.
4 A general conversation.
5 MR GARNHAM: Was this all on the first occasion?
6 MS TAUB: On the first occasion, yes.
7 MR GARNHAM: So you talked about her where she had lived in
8 France?
9 MS TAUB: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: Did you talk about her schooling?
11 MS TAUB: Yes, I spoke about all those things, schooling,
12 about the Ivory Coast course and also about what she has
13 done to her head.
14 MR GARNHAM: Are we still talking about simply the first
15 occasion?
16 MS TAUB: The first occasion, yes.
17 MR GARNHAM: Can I ask you first of all what she said about
18 her schooling in France?
19 MS TAUB: It was really never clear. If I asked her
20 a precise question she was incoherent. She was not
21 speaking clearly and she was mumbling a little bit and
22 I could not really exactly say if she had been in school
23 in France or in England or even in the Ivory Coast.
24 MR GARNHAM: She was unclear in your explanation about that?
25 MS TAUB: Yes, very unclear.
198
1 MR GARNHAM: Was the type of French you were speaking to her
2 something that she appeared to understand?
3 MS TAUB: She understood me but her French was not -- it is
4 not that it was not very good, but not the sort of
5 French that I was familiar with. Especially when I was
6 asking her precise question about her childhood or what
7 happened to her.
8 MR GARNHAM: What was her demeanour? Was she a bright
9 little girl or slow?
10 MS TAUB: She was bright, yes, very very bright.
11 MR GARNHAM: Quiet or talkative?
12 MS TAUB: Talkative.
13 MR GARNHAM: Articulate or slow thinking?
14 MS TAUB: Articulate when it was about playing, but not
15 about precise questions.
16 MR GARNHAM: Her past?
17 MS TAUB: Yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: So she was not articulate when she was talking
19 about her past?
20 MS TAUB: No.
21 MR GARNHAM: Did she seem noticeably reticent about talking
22 about her past?
23 MS TAUB: No, she did not seem reticent. Just I could not
24 understand what she was saying very well. It was not
25 very coherent.
199
1 MR GARNHAM: Was that, did you think, at the time,
2 a language difficulty?
3 MS TAUB: Probably, yes. I did not think at the time
4 anything very special.
5 MR GARNHAM: Did you ask her where best she liked to live?
6 MS TAUB: Yes.
7 MR GARNHAM: And her reply?
8 MS TAUB: She said in the Ivory Coast.
9 MR GARNHAM: Did you ask her about her family in the Ivory
10 Coast?
11 MS TAUB: I tried to but she was not able to tell me very
12 much about it.
13 MR GARNHAM: Did you get any feel, whether by direct
14 question or otherwise, as to where she regarded as home?
15 MS TAUB: No, did I not feel -- no.
16 MR GARNHAM: Did you ever ask her about home?
17 MS TAUB: Yes. That particular time, and I remember she
18 said that she -- I asked her where she preferred to
19 live, she said the Ivory Coast and I asked her why, and
20 she said because she can play outside. I think she said
21 something about her godmother but I do not know exactly
22 what she said about her godmother.
23 MR GARNHAM: Did she talk about her home life in France?
24 MS TAUB: No. No.
25 MR GARNHAM: Did she talk about her home life in England?
200
1 MS TAUB: No.
2 MR GARNHAM: And how much did she tell you about her home
3 life in the Ivory Coast?
4 MS TAUB: The only thing she told me that she liked it
5 better because she could play outside.
6 MR GARNHAM: The impression you are giving me is that she
7 was not keen about talking about her past life
8 generally; is that fair?
9 MS TAUB: I think so.
10 MR GARNHAM: I appreciate what you say about this not being
11 a clinical relationship, but did you mention to her or
12 ask her in conversation how she sustained the burns?
13 MS TAUB: I did ask her and she was not very clear about it
14 and I could not quite make out if she did it herself or
15 if it was an accident or -- because I even said to her,
16 "You have to be very careful, you know, not playing with
17 the hot water" because I felt -- at one stage I felt she
18 was telling me she did it herself.
19 MR GARNHAM: I wonder if you would look at paragraph 10 of
20 your statement, please. Do you have that?
21 MS TAUB: Yes. Which page?
22 MR GARNHAM: Page 2, paragraph 10.
23 MS TAUB: Yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: "When I asked Victoria how she had sustained
25 her injuries she became incoherent and she reverted to
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