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Archived Transcript for 7 November 2001: Pages
251 to 295
251
1 the court one. That is the only explanation I can give
2 at the moment.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Just so I am absolutely clear, when it came
4 to writing your statement for the court, you felt that
5 you were restricted to what was actually in the notes
6 that you had written on the ward?
7 MS GRAHAM: Yes.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Whereas when you came to --
9 MS GRAHAM: For the Inquiry.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: You felt that you could write whatever you
11 could remember?
12 MS GRAHAM: Right. I could remember more and put more in
13 the Inquiry.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anything that you either have
15 written for this Inquiry -- and that is what I am
16 concerned about -- or that you have said today that you
17 would like to change or alter in any way?
18 MS GRAHAM: No. No. What I have written for the Inquiry is
19 what I remembered of Victoria while she was in my care
20 and on the ward.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: And what you have said today is exactly what
22 you wanted to say and there is nothing that you want to
23 change?
24 MS GRAHAM: There is nothing to change.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Thank you Mr Sheldon.
252
1 MR SHELDON: Sir, there are three very short points that
2 I have been asked to make and I will make them very
3 quickly. The first is this Miss Graham. You may recall
4 that I showed you a clinical note. For reference that
5 is volume 37, page 108. It may that be I do not have to
6 take you to it. It was a clinical note written
7 recording the fact that Lisa Arthurworrey had phoned the
8 ward on 4th August 1999 and said that she had been told
9 that she would have to wear protective clothing if she
10 was going to Victoria's house. Do you remember seeing
11 that note earlier?
12 MS GRAHAM: Phoning the ward?
13 MR SHELDON: Yes. You had better see it. It is volume 37,
14 page 108. At the top of the page:
15 "Lisa Arthurworrey, social worker, phoned re
16 Anna Kouao. Lisa and police were to meet this morning
17 at 10.00, at Anna's home. On the advice of medical
18 staff Lisa and police were told protective clothing
19 should be worn in Anna's home ..."
20 Do you recall ever seeing that note?
21 MS GRAHAM: No, I did not see it.
22 MR SHELDON: At the time?
23 MS GRAHAM: No.
24 MR SHELDON: Do you regard the use of protective clothing as
25 being necessary in visiting a house that is occupied by
253
1 someone with scabies?
2 MS GRAHAM: When we talk about protective clothing we mean
3 gloves and an apron.
4 MR SHELDON: You would advise gloves and an apron?
5 MS GRAHAM: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: Next matter. You say in your statement,
7 paragraph 46, that your recollection is that
8 Lisa Arthurworrey, when she came on to the ward, asked
9 Victoria if she was okay to which Victoria replied yes.
10 Lisa Arthurworrey then asked Victoria whether she wanted
11 to go home, to which she replied, "Yes". "At that
12 point, Victoria rushed off down the corridor to go and
13 pack". Are you saying that that was the limit of the
14 conversation that Lisa Arthurworrey had with Anna as she
15 was then, Victoria as we know her now, on 6th August?
16 MS GRAHAM: It was not a very long conversation.
17 MR SHELDON: If I was to say to you the conversation lasted
18 20-30 minutes and was in fact an interview conducted
19 with both Victoria and Constable Jones and
20 Lisa Arthurworrey, what would you say?
21 MS GRAHAM: No.
22 MR SHELDON: If I was to suggest to you you are simply wrong
23 about that, you would tell me that it is me that was
24 wrong?
25 MS GRAHAM: You are wrong.
254
1 MR SHELDON: Penultimately, you have said that
2 Lisa Arthurworrey told you -- I know you were unclear
3 about it in your statement, but you are sure now it was
4 Lisa Arthurworrey told you she had done a home visit and
5 everything was fine?
6 MS GRAHAM: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: I have to suggest to you that you are simply
8 not telling the truth about that and that perhaps one of
9 the potential reasons for that is because you realised
10 that you allowed Victoria to go home when you should not
11 have done and are seeking to blame Lisa Arthurworrey for
12 that instead. What do you say to that?
13 MS GRAHAM: Lisa said that everything was fine, she had
14 checked the house, she had been in, everything was fine,
15 she had no reason to keep the child.
16 MR SHELDON: Finally the answer you gave to Lord Laming just
17 now in relation to some inconsistencies in your
18 evidence, was that when you gave evidence to the
19 criminal trial you were concerned that you must restrict
20 your answer only to that which was in the notes,
21 recorded in the notes. Is that right?
22 MS GRAHAM: That is what it had to be, yes.
23 MR SHELDON: Now the episode with Victoria sitting on her
24 mother's lap, stroking her face and saying she was
25 a nice mummy, that is not in the notes, is it?
255
1 MS GRAHAM: I did not write it down, no.
2 MR SHELDON: But it is something you told the police because
3 it finds its way into your CPS statement and you gave
4 evidence about it at the trial?
5 MS GRAHAM: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: So your explanation for why you have given
7 different evidence today to the evidence you gave at the
8 trial is not entirely accurate, is it?
9 MS GRAHAM: It is accurate.
10 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Sheldon, I am grateful to you.
12 Miss Graham, thank you.
13 MR GARNHAM: Dr Forlee please.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: As Dr Forlee is coming, Ms Boye you kindly
15 let me see this. Could I keep it in custody overnight
16 and we will return it tomorrow.
17 MS BOYE: Yes, thank you sir.
18 DR SIMONE FORLEE (sworn)
19 MR GARNHAM: Would you give us your full name please.
20 DR FORLEE: My name is Simone Forlee.
21 MR GARNHAM: And your professional address.
22 DR FORLEE: My professional address currently is Great
23 Ormond Street Children's Hospital in London.
24 MR GARNHAM: Dr Forlee, you have made one Inquiry statement
25 for us, it is at volume 6, page 81, and a copy is now
256
1 being put in front of you. Could you look through it
2 and confirm that you have signed it?
3 DR FORLEE: Yes, I have.
4 MR GARNHAM: Can you confirm that its contents are true.
5 DR FORLEE: Yes, I can.
6 MR GARNHAM: You also made a statement, I think, for the
7 Crown Prosecution Service.
8 DR FORLEE: That is right.
9 MR GARNHAM: Sir, that is at volume 46, page 89. And you
10 gave evidence at the criminal trial of Manning and
11 Kouao. Is that right?
12 DR FORLEE: That is correct.
13 MR GARNHAM: And a transcript sir of that is in volume 49 at
14 page 189. You are presently an SHO in neonatology in
15 Great Ormond Street?
16 DR FORLEE: No, I am currently an SHO in neurosurgery and
17 neurology at Great Ormond Street.
18 MR GARNHAM: You previously held a number of SHO posts.
19 DR FORLEE: That is correct.
20 MR GARNHAM: Including one at the North Middlesex Hospital.
21 DR FORLEE: That is right.
22 MR GARNHAM: Where you were the SHO in paediatrics between
23 August 1998 and August 1999.
24 DR FORLEE: That is correct.
25 MR GARNHAM: I think it is right, Dr Forlee, that you first
257
1 met Victoria at about 7 pm on the evening of Saturday
2 24th July.
3 DR FORLEE: Yes, as far as I can recall.
4 MR GARNHAM: Do you have a good recollection of that, those
5 events?
6 DR FORLEE: I have a far more vivid recollection of that
7 particular case than I would have generally of other
8 cases.
9 MR GARNHAM: Can I ask you first of all why that is so?
10 DR FORLEE: I think because it was such an unusual case and
11 made a great impact on me.
12 MR GARNHAM: What was unusual about it?
13 DR FORLEE: I thought there were a number of inconsistencies
14 in the story that was being presented to me when I saw
15 Victoria and the story that had been given to me by the
16 adults accompanying her.
17 MR GARNHAM: That is noticeably unusual, is it, at the NMH,
18 in your experience of it?
19 DR FORLEE: In my experience this was the most serious case
20 of suspected non-accidental injury that I had seen at
21 NMH.
22 MR GARNHAM: As a result you tell us your recollection of
23 those events is better than with other cases.
24 DR FORLEE: That is right.
25 MR GARNHAM: But would you say you have a good recollection
258
1 of those events?
2 DR FORLEE: Yes, I do.
3 MR GARNHAM: We now know that the circumstances in which
4 Victoria was kept and the circumstances in which she
5 died are quite horrific.
6 DR FORLEE: (Nods).
7 MR GARNHAM: You learned of that, doubtlessly, after her
8 death, perhaps after the criminal trial or at the time
9 of the criminal trial.
10 DR FORLEE: Well, prior to the criminal trial it was about
11 April I think of 2000 I was requested to give
12 a statement to the police.
13 MR GARNHAM: By the time you made that statement and
14 certainly by the time you made the statement for this
15 Inquiry you were aware of the horrific circumstances of
16 Victoria's death?
17 DR FORLEE: That is right.
18 MR GARNHAM: Do you think it is possible, Dr Forlee, that
19 your recollection of events has been coloured by what
20 you have learned subsequently?
21 DR FORLEE: No, I think I had quite a vivid recollection of
22 things and what I have put in my statement genuinely
23 reflects, I believe, what I -- what struck me at the
24 time rather than in recollection.
25 MR GARNHAM: I just wonder if the thing that is most
259
1 noteworthy and memorable about Victoria's case is what
2 you learned after her death.
3 DR FORLEE: I think at the time that I saw her it did make
4 a huge impact on me from, as I say, just because of the
5 circumstances of the case.
6 MR GARNHAM: So you tell us, do you, that all that we find
7 in your statement is what you recollect from the time
8 you describe and is not you looking back on things
9 through the glasses of subsequent knowledge.
10 DR FORLEE: As was mentioned earlier, the request for
11 statements for this Inquiry did, as I understood it,
12 request us to try and recall things, so obviously there
13 is a degree of trying to go back and remember the
14 situation. But I would say most if not all of my
15 statement I still hold was what had struck me at the
16 time that I saw her.
17 MR GARNHAM: Perhaps you would be kind enough to be
18 assiduous in pointing out any part of your statement
19 that we discuss hereafter that you think may have been
20 affected by what you learned subsequently.
21 DR FORLEE: I would say the only thing that really comes to
22 mind is where I describe the fact that the child who
23 I then knew as Anna, we now know as Victoria, did not
24 seek any comfort from the woman who accompanied her.
25 That I did include on retrospect but I think otherwise
260
1 I believe my statement to be based on what I saw at the
2 time.
3 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Do you recall or do you know what
4 time Victoria arrived at the NMH that evening?
5 DR FORLEE: I would have to refer to the casualty card.
6 I do have some recollection from the criminal trial
7 where this issue was brought up.
8 MR GARNHAM: Let us look at the records, volume 37, please.
9 Page 251. You note there that Victoria or the
10 patient concerned was called for triage at 5.30.
11 DR FORLEE: That is right.
12 MR GARNHAM: And DNA I think in this context means "did not
13 attend"?
14 DR FORLEE: That is right.
15 MR GARNHAM: Then again at 17.45, then again at 18.15 hours
16 the child returned. Those were notes that you saw at
17 the time you first saw Victoria?
18 DR FORLEE: I probably would have, yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: I suggest that she got to the hospital about
20 5.30.
21 DR FORLEE: Well, if you look at the front page of the
22 casualty card the time entered is 6.45. I presume that
23 should be 16.45, I am not entirely sure.
24 MR GARNHAM: Can you tell us what page you are looking at,
25 please?
261
1 DR FORLEE: 250.
2 MR GARNHAM: Yes, thank you.
3 DR FORLEE: I will take that to be the time that she
4 actually arrived at the department.
5 MR GARNHAM: Yes, the top line gives the date and gives
6 17.45 as the time. 17.25, sorry.
7 DR FORLEE: Yes, that is right.
8 MR GARNHAM: That looks as if it is consistent, does it not,
9 with triage time 17.30, five minutes later, and then the
10 other pages pick up the subsequent calls to triage, yes?
11 DR FORLEE: Yes.
12 MR GARNHAM: Did you ever discover why it was that Victoria
13 and Kouao did not show for the first two triages?
14 DR FORLEE: To be honest, I did not.
15 MR GARNHAM: Did you ever inquire?
16 DR FORLEE: No, I do not think I did.
17 MR GARNHAM: Is it unusual?
18 DR FORLEE: I am not certain, to be honest.
19 MR GARNHAM: It just strikes me that if you have a child who
20 you see is being called to Accident and Emergency with
21 scalding injuries, it is a bit odd that the child is not
22 immediately there, desperately keen to see the doctor,
23 and for her to have been called twice without success is
24 an unusual circumstance, is it not?
25 DR FORLEE: I cannot comment specifically on any protocol.
262
1 It may that be parents slip out to make a telephone call
2 and therefore do not have to be there when they called.
3 I am not entirely sure but I did not make any inquiries
4 at the time.
5 MR GARNHAM: She had been seen in A&E and you were
6 responsible that day for paediatric reference from A&E
7 to Rainbow Ward. Is that right?
8 DR FORLEE: I was on a call and would therefore be called to
9 casualty to review children.
10 MR GARNHAM: You were bleeped by a casualty officer?
11 DR FORLEE: Yes, I was.
12 MR GARNHAM: That casualty officer was working in the A&E
13 department?
14 DR FORLEE: At the time they were, yes.
15 MR GARNHAM: You then phone him or her back, do you?
16 DR FORLEE: Yes.
17 MR GARNHAM: And you have a telephone conversation?
18 DR FORLEE: That is right.
19 MR GARNHAM: Do you remember what was said?
20 DR FORLEE: Not word for word, I just remember.
21 MR GARNHAM: What was the gist, then?
22 DR FORLEE: The gist was that they had seen a child with
23 a history of scabies who the story had been given was
24 that she had been itching incredibly and had poured hot
25 water over her head.
263
1 MR GARNHAM: Immediately you heard that, what were your
2 thoughts and concerns?
3 DR FORLEE: I thought it was a bit odd that a child should
4 pour hot water over her own head.
5 MR GARNHAM: Did you go on at that early stage to think why
6 that might have happened?
7 DR FORLEE: Sorry, I do not think I follow you.
8 MR GARNHAM: Were you immediately concerned that the
9 circumstances that were being reported to you by the
10 casualty officer were suggestive possibly of child
11 abuse?
12 DR FORLEE: Yes, I did not think it was a normal -- it was
13 not the usual sort of history to have been given.
14 MR GARNHAM: So right from the start your antennae were
15 tuned to the possibility of child abuse, were they,
16 because of that description?
17 DR FORLEE: Well, I certainly had to bear it in mind, yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: Paragraph 12 of your statement you describe the
19 casualty officer's explanation to you of what had
20 happened and you said:
21 "As this incident involved burns on a child, we
22 would have been alerted to possible child protection
23 issues straight away."
24 Is that accurate?
25 DR FORLEE: Yes, I would say so.
264
1 MR GARNHAM: You then went to A&E and saw Victoria.
2 DR FORLEE: First of all I discussed the case with the
3 registrar who happened to be with me at the time. It
4 was normal procedure to inform the registrar to check --
5 MR GARNHAM: That was Dr?
6 DR FORLEE: Banjoko.
7 MR GARNHAM: Did you take some paperwork with you when you
8 went from where you were to A&E?
9 DR FORLEE: Not from where I was. In A&E I know where the
10 child protection forms are kept so we would pick those
11 up.
12 MR GARNHAM: Did you pick those up on this occasion?
13 DR FORLEE: Yes, I did.
14 MR GARNHAM: And what was the plan? How were you intending
15 to complete them? After seeing the patient or during
16 the course of the examination?
17 DR FORLEE: I would usually complete them during the course
18 of the examination.
19 MR GARNHAM: What did you know about the case before you saw
20 Victoria? Anything other than what you had been told by
21 the casualty officer?
22 DR FORLEE: I recall there being some detail about her
23 having attended elsewhere before.
24 MR GARNHAM: Do you know where you got that from?
25 DR FORLEE: I am not entirely sure whether that was from the
265
1 casualty officer themselves or from one of the nursing
2 staff.
3 MR GARNHAM: So you had a conversation with either the
4 doctors or the nurses at casualty?
5 DR FORLEE: Well, the referral came from the casualty
6 officer. I am not sure if that bit of information was
7 included in the referral specifically.
8 MR GARNHAM: That is the telephone call?
9 DR FORLEE: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: Alternatively it might have been that you had
11 a conversation with a nurse in A&E and were informed by
12 him or her of that bit of information?
13 DR FORLEE: Yes, that is right.
14 MR GARNHAM: Did you also pick up the casualty card?
15 DR FORLEE: I think I did, yes.
16 MR GARNHAM: Before you got to Victoria, how much did you
17 know about her previous admission to hospital?
18 DR FORLEE: Very little, to be honest.
19 MR GARNHAM: Tell us what little it is you knew.
20 DR FORLEE: Basically that she had been treated for scabies.
21 MR GARNHAM: Did you know where?
22 DR FORLEE: At the Central Middlesex Hospital.
23 MR GARNHAM: Did you know when?
24 DR FORLEE: Looking back that is recorded as I think 15th or
25 17th July.
266
1 MR GARNHAM: Did you know that at this stage, as you make
2 your way to see Victoria?
3 DR FORLEE: I think I did have a vague idea, yes.
4 MR GARNHAM: Before you spoke to Victoria, did you attempt
5 to obtain the CMH notes?
6 DR FORLEE: No, I did not.
7 MR GARNHAM: Did you at any time seek to obtain the CMH
8 notes?
9 DR FORLEE: Not on this occasion, no.
10 MR GARNHAM: I can understand you would not want to do that
11 before you see the patient and because the patient would
12 come first, but would it not be something you would want
13 to obtain fairly soon after seeing the patient?
14 DR FORLEE: In retrospect obviously that does seem to be
15 a reasonable move to make.
16 MR GARNHAM: Yes. So can you tell us why you did not make
17 it?
18 DR FORLEE: I think at the time I thought I had sufficient
19 ground to make a reasonably accurate assessment that
20 there was a child at risk and therefore my plan of
21 action at that stage in terms of admitting her would not
22 have been altered specifically by other information.
23 MR GARNHAM: But you are depriving yourself of some fairly
24 useful material, are you not, if only a fortnight before
25 she has been in another hospital?
267
1 DR FORLEE: That is true. Practically it is difficult in an
2 on-call situation to try and get records from elsewhere.
3 MR GARNHAM: Why not telephone and try to speak to a doctor
4 who had had something to do with Victoria at CMH?
5 DR FORLEE: That is true. In retrospect that might have
6 been a reasonable thing to do.
7 MR GARNHAM: This is not intended critically but I am trying
8 to understand why you did not do it. Is it because you
9 are busy or because it did not strike you as important
10 at the time, or why?
11 DR FORLEE: Well, one, there are constraints on time and,
12 secondly, as I said before, I thought I had sufficient
13 grounds to make an assessment and my management would
14 not necessarily change with that piece of information.
15 Yes, it would strengthen it at a later stage, but in the
16 very acute stage of here is a child in casualty, do you
17 admit them or do you not, I already had sufficient
18 grounds to admit her.
19 MR GARNHAM: I can see that but after her admission would it
20 not be important to have those notes from CMH or
21 alternatively the views of the doctor who treated?
22 DR FORLEE: At a later stage it would be important.
23 MR GARNHAM: But it was not obtained by you?
24 DR FORLEE: Not by me, no.
25 MR GARNHAM: Nor by you on any other occasion?
268
1 DR FORLEE: My involvement was fairly limited.
2 MR GARNHAM: But my question deserves a yes, does it not?
3 DR FORLEE: No.
4 MR GARNHAM: At no other stage did you seek to obtain the
5 notes?
6 DR FORLEE: No.
7 MR GARNHAM: You knew, did you, that she had been admitted
8 to CMH or simply that she had visited CMH?
9 DR FORLEE: The casualty notes say she had been admitted and
10 they allude to her having taken -- or that she had left
11 without a formal discharge. The discussion with Kouao
12 at the time did not involve details about admission and
13 I did not actually pursue that with her.
14 MR GARNHAM: I will come on to ask you about your
15 conversation with Kouao, but for the moment, what you
16 knew before you started that conversation was, what,
17 with regard to her admission?
18 DR FORLEE: That she had been treated for scabies and that
19 there were details about her possibly having taken early
20 discharge.
21 MR GARNHAM: The observation about an early discharge, where
22 did that come from?
23 DR FORLEE: I think that came from the casualty card.
24 MR GARNHAM: You say in paragraph 25 of your statement that
25 she left without formal discharge and we find reference
269
1 to that, do we, in the casualty card notes?
2 DR FORLEE: On page 251, yes.
3 MR GARNHAM: I see, where it says "took self discharge"?
4 DR FORLEE: Yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: That is what you are referring to, is it?
6 DR FORLEE: Yes.
7 MR GARNHAM: Do you know who made those notes on page 251?
8 DR FORLEE: Those would have been the casualty officer's
9 notes.
10 MR GARNHAM: Those would have been because they are the sort
11 of notes the casualty officers make or because you know
12 the writing?
13 DR FORLEE: No, I do not know the writing. That would be
14 the place where a casualty officer would record their
15 findings.
16 MR GARNHAM: So with that information you make your way to
17 where Victoria and Kouao are and I think you see
18 Victoria, do you not, in the play area?
19 DR FORLEE: Yes.
20 MR GARNHAM: Is that an area set aside inside A&E?
21 DR FORLEE: As we mentioned earlier, at that stage there was
22 not a specific paediatric area, it was a room with a few
23 cubicles, I think two cubicles with curtains that could
24 be drawn around them. One little room that had
25 a trolley in it, a bed, and just generally an open area
270
1 with some toys and chairs.
2 MR GARNHAM: And that is where you saw Victoria?
3 DR FORLEE: That is right.
4 MR GARNHAM: And she was sitting there with Kouao?
5 DR FORLEE: As far as I can recall, yes.
6 MR GARNHAM: You initially saw them together, I think?
7 DR FORLEE: Victoria was there throughout the interview.
8 MR GARNHAM: So I am right in saying you initially saw them
9 together?
10 DR FORLEE: That is right.
11 MR GARNHAM: What was your immediate assessment of Victoria
12 when you went in to where she was?
13 DR FORLEE: Initially I assessed the degree and severity of
14 the burns that she had presented with.
15 MR GARNHAM: And your immediate impression about that?
16 DR FORLEE: They were facial injuries. They looked like or
17 they appeared to be scald injuries around the forehead
18 and face. They were not of a major degree in terms of
19 percentage of body area involved.
20 MR GARNHAM: And depth?
21 DR FORLEE: And depth they seemed to be partial thickness
22 burns but of the superficial variety which is fairly
23 typical of scalds.
24 MR GARNHAM: And how did Victoria seem in herself?
25 Cheerful, miserable, in pain?
271
1 DR FORLEE: Not really in pain. Fairly passive I would have
2 thought.
3 MR GARNHAM: How was she dressed?
4 DR FORLEE: In a very light dress which I think was pink,
5 quite thin. It looked quite dirty. What struck me was
6 that it was -- it seemed quite a summery dress for this
7 time of day. Later when I lifted up her dress
8 I realised she was not wearing any underwear.
9 MR GARNHAM: You described her at the criminal trial as
10 being like a street urchin.
11 DR FORLEE: She just appeared quite unkept and --
12 MR GARNHAM: Clean?
13 DR FORLEE: She had something on her skin.
14 MR GARNHAM: Was she clean or did you not notice?
15 DR FORLEE: Well, she did not look clean, no.
16 MR GARNHAM: The burns that you noted were principally to
17 her face, is that right?
18 DR FORLEE: Around the hairline and face.
19 MR GARNHAM: What did Kouao tell you about how they had been
20 suffered?
21 DR FORLEE: She told me that Victoria had been itching and
22 had consequently poured hot water over her head.
23 MR GARNHAM: Did she say how, where the hot water had come
24 from?
25 DR FORLEE: No, she did not.
272
1 MR GARNHAM: Did she not say whether she had put the head
2 under the kettle or a pan or a bowl or --
3 DR FORLEE: She did say she was in the bathroom but I cannot
4 recall.
5 MR GARNHAM: Is it that you do not remember or that she did
6 not say?
7 DR FORLEE: I cannot be sure.
8 MR GARNHAM: In these earlier exchanges was Victoria saying
9 anything?
10 DR FORLEE: No, I do not recall her saying anything.
11 MR GARNHAM: What was your immediate impression of Kouao by
12 comparison with Victoria?
13 DR FORLEE: In stark contrast to Victoria she was
14 immaculately presented.
15 MR GARNHAM: Nice clothes, nice hair, made up?
16 DR FORLEE: Yes.
17 MR GARNHAM: You took a history from Kouao and you have told
18 us something about that already and you tell us at
19 paragraph 15 of your statement that the conversation you
20 had with her was prompted by your completion of the
21 child protection forms.
22 DR FORLEE: That is right.
23 MR GARNHAM: How do you normally work? Is it if your
24 immediate suspicion is that a child in A&E may be the
25 victim of child abuse?
273
1 DR FORLEE: Yes.
2 MR GARNHAM: Is it volume 37 you have in front of you?
3 DR FORLEE: Yes, it is.
4 MR GARNHAM: Help me with some of the forms then, please,
5 starting at 053. That is CP1 which I think is the first
6 of a series of child protection forms that are completed
7 by doctors in these sort of circumstances, is that
8 right?
9 DR FORLEE: That is right.
10 MR GARNHAM: You fill in her name, her address, telephone
11 number, ethnicity. You asked Kouao where she was from,
12 did you?
13 DR FORLEE: That is right.
14 MR GARNHAM: Date of birth again from Kouao?
15 DR FORLEE: Yes.
16 MR GARNHAM: School. How did you come to make the entry you
17 did there?
18 DR FORLEE: I asked whether Victoria was attending school.
19 MR GARNHAM: Because she was of an age where you would have
20 expected her to do so?
21 DR FORLEE: Yes. She answered no. I then assumed it was
22 July, so perhaps if she was not currently in school,
23 maybe she was making plans for her to go to school, so
24 I asked her had she any plans for Victoria to attend
25 school, to which she answered yes. When I questioned
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1 her as to what the school's name was or where it was,
2 she really did not attempt to give me an answer.
3 MR GARNHAM: And your feelings, having heard that?
4 DR FORLEE: Raised suspicions tremendously.
5 MR GARNHAM: Suspicions she was not in fact in school?
6 DR FORLEE: And she had no plans for her to attend school.
7 MR GARNHAM: Were you concerned about that?
8 DR FORLEE: Yes.
9 MR GARNHAM: What did you do about it? You noted it down,
10 as we can see.
11 DR FORLEE: Yes, and handed it on during the handover and
12 this was all part of the assessment that I made that was
13 the child at risk.
14 MR GARNHAM: Yes, I can see that that is part of the
15 evidence on which you rely in reaching that conclusion
16 but I am interested in what you do about that particular
17 concern, namely that the child appears not to be in
18 school and there are to be no realistic plans for her to
19 go to school the next term. Is that followed up in any
20 way?
21 DR FORLEE: It ought to be followed up, yes.
22 MR GARNHAM: By whom?
23 DR FORLEE: By the paediatric team.
24 MR GARNHAM: Do you do anything about it?
25 DR FORLEE: Well, I did not on this particular night, no.
275
1 MR GARNHAM: Should you do?
2 DR FORLEE: Well, I think it would have to be in discussion
3 with the rest of the team and it would be a team
4 decision about what the correct avenues were. I did not
5 have any particular experience of this problem before.
6 MR GARNHAM: Did you discuss this particular aspect of the
7 case with the rest of the paediatric team?
8 DR FORLEE: Yes I think I did.
9 MR GARNHAM: With whom did you discuss it?
10 DR FORLEE: Certainly on the handover the following morning.
11 MR GARNHAM: To whom, name of the doctor?
12 DR FORLEE: Dr Rossiter took the ward round and the doctors
13 coming on. I cannot remember specifically who.
14 MR GARNHAM: You discussed this particular aspect of the
15 case with Dr Rossiter, did you?
16 DR FORLEE: I am sure I would have, yes.
17 MR GARNHAM: You use the conditional tense which suggests
18 that you do not have an accurate recollection.
19 DR FORLEE: I cannot remember for certain, but I remember
20 being struck by a lot of these facts and handing them
21 over.
22 MR GARNHAM: You record Kouao's date of birth and you tell
23 us that it struck you that it was odd, to put it no
24 higher, that a woman with that date of birth could have
25 children of the age that she told you she had.
276
1 DR FORLEE: Yes.
2 MR GARNHAM: And you wondered whether she might have married
3 an older man, as indicated by the husband's date of
4 birth, who had children that were not hers and these
5 were her stepchildren.
6 DR FORLEE: Yes I presumed that maybe the case.
7 MR GARNHAM: Because otherwise it is difficult to explain
8 how she could have had the older child.
9 DR FORLEE: There have been a few cases of mothers of
10 7 years of age but I think they are incredibly rare.
11 MR GARNHAM: Did you ask her about that?
12 DR FORLEE: No, to be honest I did not challenge her on
13 that.
14 MR GARNHAM: Kouao explained to you how it came about that
15 she brought Victoria to England but left the siblings in
16 France, did she?
17 DR FORLEE: Yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: What did she say?
19 DR FORLEE: Well, when I asked where the other children
20 were, she told me they were in France and at some point
21 during the interview she made the comment that she was
22 particularly close to this, her youngest child and thus
23 on her coming over to England she just could not bear to
24 leave her in France and so had brought her along.
25 MR GARNHAM: Whereas the others down to age 17 were left in
277
1 France?
2 DR FORLEE: Yes.
3 MR GARNHAM: Any further inquiry about that by you?
4 DR FORLEE: I cannot recall specifically.
5 MR GARNHAM: You asked Kouao a little, I think, about the
6 community support she and Victoria had in this country.
7 You asked her about health visitor?
8 DR FORLEE: I do not think I specifically asked her about
9 health visitor at this stage.
10 MR GARNHAM: Social worker?
11 DR FORLEE: I asked her about social worker, yes.
12 MR GARNHAM: With what response?
13 DR FORLEE: My question to her was had she had any contact
14 with social workers in the past and she said, yes. This
15 was in the context of a housing situation. Do you want
16 me to elaborate?
17 MR GARNHAM: Yes, please.
18 DR FORLEE: As recorded in my notes she had requested help
19 with the housing situation and she could not give me the
20 actual name of the social worker she had been in touch
21 with and made the comment that they had apparently
22 suggested that she be separated from her daughter and at
23 this point she seemed not to want to continue the
24 conversation any further and I left it at that.
25 MR GARNHAM: You did not ask for anymore details about the
278
1 social work involvement, the name of the social worker,
2 which office she was from?
3 DR FORLEE: I asked her the name but she could not tell me.
4 MR GARNHAM: GP; did you ask her whether she had a GP?
5 DR FORLEE: Yes.
6 MR GARNHAM: What response?
7 DR FORLEE: She was not registered with a GP.
8 MR GARNHAM: Is the "she" in that sentence Kouao or
9 Victoria?
10 DR FORLEE: Kouao.
11 MR GARNHAM: Did you ask whether Victoria was registered?
12 DR FORLEE: No, I did not make that distinction.
13 MR GARNHAM: So, did you assume since Kouao was not
14 registered with a GP, Victoria was not either?
15 DR FORLEE: Yes, I did.
16 MR GARNHAM: A further subject for concern; this young girl
17 now, no school, no GP?
18 DR FORLEE: Yes, certainly.
19 MR GARNHAM: What did you do about that?
20 DR FORLEE: Nothing on this particular evening.
21 MR GARNHAM: And subsequently?
22 DR FORLEE: As before, just handed over the information that
23 I had obtained.
24 MR GARNHAM: Is that the normal procedure for somebody in
25 the post of SHO? If you have these sort of concerns do
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1 you simply inform other members of the team and leave it
2 to them?
3 DR FORLEE: Well, it would usually be a team approach. On
4 the night of admission this was the assessment, these
5 were the first bits of details I had obtained. They
6 were handed on and then from there there would be
7 a structured plan under the guidance of the consultant
8 leading the case as to what plan of action we should
9 undertake.
10 MR GARNHAM: In your subsequent involvement with Victoria's
11 case, which I know was limited but some existed, did you
12 ever follow up these points?
13 DR FORLEE: I did not personally make enquiries about the GP
14 or school, no, although that information was available
15 to -- I mean that was something that we all knew about.
16 I did not take it on myself.
17 MR GARNHAM: Do you know whether anybody else did?
18 DR FORLEE: I am not sure.
19 MR GARNHAM: Is it not incumbent on you, if you do not take
20 it on yourself, to ensure that somebody is looking into
21 these matters?
22 DR FORLEE: I think that is quite difficult because we are
23 part of a team. They would all be decisions made in
24 that sort of capacity rather than off your own bat.
25 MR GARNHAM: So where in the team is the decision made to
280
1 deal with these matters?
2 DR FORLEE: Sorry, where in the team?
3 MR GARNHAM: Yes. Who ought I ask to discover how this
4 information is processed? Will the consultants say that
5 she did it or will she say she referred it to the
6 paediatrician. Who normally follows these matters up?
7 DR FORLEE: To be honest, I had never dealt with a case like
8 this before so I had no prior experience to base it on
9 but I would have assumed, as the rest of the plan
10 unfolded, it would be guided by the consultant.
11 MR GARNHAM: You had been an SHO working in paediatrics and
12 neonatology for some years. Had you never come across
13 a case where a child patient was presented to you and it
14 turned out she did not have a GP or she was not in
15 school?
16 DR FORLEE: I think I may have seen some cases where a child
17 was not registered with a GP but where there were not
18 child protection concerns. I cannot remember coming
19 across a child who was not enrolled in the school.
20 MR GARNHAM: In the previous occasions where you have had
21 suggestion that a child is not registered with a GP, who
22 in the paediatric team takes it up and makes sure that
23 that is addressed?
24 DR FORLEE: Well, I am not aware of anyone specifically who
25 would take on that role.
281
1 MR GARNHAM: You told us you asked Kouao how Victoria had
2 suffered her injuries and you were told she had tipped
3 hot water over herself. Were you told, or did you ask
4 when that had occurred?
5 DR FORLEE: I did ask her when that had occurred.
6 MR GARNHAM: And what were you told?
7 DR FORLEE: She launched into a story about them having
8 woken up at about midday and mentioned that the incident
9 had happened soon after that, but she could not give me
10 an exact time. Although I cannot recollect this, but it
11 is recorded in the notes, she then mentioned various
12 other times somewhere between 1 and 3 pm.
13 MR GARNHAM: Yes. Did the differences of timing concern
14 you?
15 DR FORLEE: Yes, the fact that she could not give me a clear
16 account of events did raise suspicions.
17 MR GARNHAM: Would you have a look at volume 46, please,
18 page 80. That is the second page of your CPS statement.
19 In the third line from the top you say:
20 "Mrs Kouao said she brought Anna straight to
21 hospital but could not give an exact time for when the
22 incident happened. She mentioned 12 o'clock but then
23 gave a range between 1300 hours and 1500 hours".
24 Is that an accurate statement of what you recall?
25 DR FORLEE: Yes.
282
1 MR GARNHAM: On any of the times she gave you, there had
2 been a significant delay in bringing the child to
3 hospital.
4 DR FORLEE: Yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: Your reaction to that, please?
6 DR FORLEE: Well, that was just another factor in raising
7 suspicions about this case.
8 MR GARNHAM: Did you ask Kouao why there had been the delay?
9 DR FORLEE: I did not specifically challenge her, no.
10 MR GARNHAM: I am not for the moment suggesting -- for the
11 present suggesting a challenge, but did you simply
12 enquire as to why it had been, without suggesting that
13 she was not telling the truth, why it had been that
14 there had been a delay of either 5 hours or 2 hours in
15 bringing a child with these scald injuries into the
16 hospital.
17 DR FORLEE: No, I did not.
18 MR GARNHAM: Why not?
19 DR FORLEE: I do not know.
20 MR GARNHAM: Did the delay not seem to you something that
21 needed investigation?
22 DR FORLEE: Yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: So something that should have been asked?
24 DR FORLEE: Something that should have been asked, yes.
25 MR GARNHAM: Did you believe the accounts you were getting
283
1 from Kouao as to the circumstances of Victoria's
2 injuries.
3 DR FORLEE: No, I thought it was highly unlikely to have
4 been the case.
5 MR GARNHAM: Both the fact that you thought you were being
6 told untruths, and the facts as they were being
7 presented to you, must have increased your suspicion
8 about what had happened to Victoria. Is that right?
9 DR FORLEE: Yes. Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: Kouao told you about her background as she
11 described it and you set that out in paragraph 24 of
12 your statement and I am not going to ask you to go
13 through that. You say you felt her story was bizarre.
14 Why bizarre?
15 DR FORLEE: Well, as I have set out in the statement the
16 impression she gave me was that she had come from
17 a quite comfortable environment in France, given all of
18 that up to come to England and live in awful conditions
19 and I could not understand why someone would voluntarily
20 do that.
21 MR GARNHAM: What were the awful conditions, as you
22 understood them to be, then?
23 DR FORLEE: She described her housing situation; that she
24 had been moving from place to place, that the
25 accommodation had been sub-standard and --
284
1 MR GARNHAM: Did she explain what sub-standard meant?
2 DR FORLEE: Well, I think she did say it was dirty and --
3 she may have mentioned some details about drafts and
4 that sort of thing. I cannot specifically recall, but
5 the impression I got was it was inadequate accommodation
6 that she was in.
7 MR GARNHAM: I am sure it may is me who has missed it but
8 I do not recall where you have recorded that she had
9 been staying in accommodation that was inadequate and
10 drafty and unclean. Did you record that?
11 DR FORLEE: I did not record specific details about the
12 accommodation.
13 MR GARNHAM: Or any details about the accommodation?
14 DR FORLEE: No.
15 MR GARNHAM: Might have been relevant, might it not, to
16 those in your team who were going to come on to assess
17 her?
18 DR FORLEE: Yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: Did you ask Kouao about the circumstances of
20 Victoria's visit to the Central Middlesex?
21 DR FORLEE: Yes.
22 MR GARNHAM: What were you told?
23 DR FORLEE: That she had attended Central Middlesex and had
24 been treated for scabies.
25 MR GARNHAM: Were you told whether Victoria had been
285
1 admitted.
2 DR FORLEE: No, I do not recall.
3 MR GARNHAM: Did you ask.
4 DR FORLEE: I do not think I questioned her on that.
5 MR GARNHAM: Because you knew from the papers you had seen,
6 did you not, that somebody had recorded that she had
7 been admitted for treatment of scabies?
8 DR FORLEE: Yes.
9 MR GARNHAM: And Kouao told you she had visited for
10 treatment of scabies but you did not explore that with
11 her?
12 DR FORLEE: I said I already had suspicions and -- yes,
13 there are lots of points I could have got further
14 details on, that is true.
15 MR GARNHAM: I understand you to say that in a number of the
16 respects where you might have asked further questions it
17 was not necessary because you had got enough to decide
18 what you were going to do but that is only one of the
19 purposes of this sort of examination, is it not? You
20 are also gathering material that may be of used to
21 others once the child is admitted?
22 DR FORLEE: That is true but you also need to take into
23 account the on-call setting and that there are time
24 constraints. You do not know when you may be called
25 away and if you have not, in that time, made some sort
286
1 of an assessment and instituted a plan of action that
2 seems reasonable, then that would not be ideal.
3 So in the time that is available to you, you try to
4 make the most accurate assessment you can. Put in place
5 a management plan that you think is appropriate and then
6 take it from there?
7 MR GARNHAM: You told us you thought this was a particularly
8 unusual case; it is one that stuck in your mind ever
9 since, even before you knew of Victoria's death.
10 DR FORLEE: That is right.
11 MR GARNHAM: Did not those unusual circumstances not prompt
12 you to make the sort of enquiries I have been asking you
13 about?
14 DR FORLEE: I suppose it is a bit of a presumption but
15 I thought I was not particularly experienced in child
16 protection issues and left that to the consultants to
17 take the lead on.
18 MR GARNHAM: I am going to come on to this somewhat later
19 but you did in fact take part in a ward round with,
20 I think, a senior registrar two days later did you not.
21 DR FORLEE: That is right.
22 MR GARNHAM: You knew that for reasons of time or whatever
23 you have not made all the inquiries and made all the
24 notes that you could have done in this case. So during
25 the course of that ward round did you remedy that
287
1 deficiency?
2 DR FORLEE: No, I did not.
3 MR GARNHAM: Why not?
4 DR FORLEE: Again, I suppose it is lack of initiative on my
5 part but I went along with the usual ward structure
6 which is that the senior leads the ward round and
7 continues on to the next patient. I did not stay back
8 to get any further details.
9 MR GARNHAM: Did you not mention to the senior registrar
10 that there were these further concerns that ought to be
11 explored and that you had not had time to do them when
12 you first saw Victoria?
13 DR FORLEE: No, again it is probably an assumption but
14 I thought that everyone knew where we were at with the
15 investigation and that those things would be addressed
16 in due course.
17 MR GARNHAM: Were they?
18 DR FORLEE: I am not certain because I left soon.
19 MR GARNHAM: Can I ask you a little more about the CP forms
20 we have been looking at. They begin at page 053, which
21 is the page open in front of you. They continue for
22 five or six pages, I think.
23 Is every word, every handwritten word on there your
24 own or have others made additions to these pages?
25 DR FORLEE: Sorry, I think I have the wrong page.
288
1 MR GARNHAM: Volume 37, page 53. My mistake, I had
2 forgotten what you had last looked at.
3 Volume 37-page 53 is a CP1, is it?
4 DR FORLEE: Yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: The entries on that page, are they all in your
6 own hand?
7 DR FORLEE: Except for next to consultant, where it says
8 "Rossiter".
9 MR GARNHAM: The words underneath "Rossiter", is that your
10 hand?
11 DR FORLEE: Yes, that is mine.
12 MR GARNHAM: So every other single handwritten word on that
13 page is yours, apart from the word Rossiter.
14 DR FORLEE: Yes.
15 MR GARNHAM: The next page?
16 DR FORLEE: That is all my handwriting.
17 MR GARNHAM: The next page?
18 DR FORLEE: Obviously the signature at the top of the page
19 is Kouao's.
20 MR GARNHAM: Yes. There is an addition by the word
21 "conclusion". It says 1/8/99, but what is uncertain is
22 the category?
23 DR FORLEE: Yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: Your handwriting, or somebody else's.
25 DR FORLEE: No, someone else's.
289
1 MR GARNHAM: Do you know who it was who wrote that?
2 DR FORLEE: I cannot be certain. I think it is
3 Dr Rossiter's handwriting but I cannot be absolutely
4 sure.
5 MR GARNHAM: Did you see that addition being made to the
6 records? Were you there?
7 DR FORLEE: No.
8 MR GARNHAM: Then there is a signature at the bottom.
9 DR FORLEE: Yes.
10 MR GARNHAM: Is that Dr Rossiter's signature?
11 DR FORLEE: I cannot be entirely sure. I think the date
12 looks like hers but, as I say, I cannot be sure whose
13 handwriting that is for certain.
14 MR GARNHAM: There is a signature below the words "I have
15 discussed/confirmed the above findings". Did you have
16 any discussion with Dr Rossiter?
17 DR FORLEE: Yes, I did.
18 MR GARNHAM: And did she discuss with you and confirm with
19 you the findings that are set out under the heading
20 "Conclusions"?
21 DR FORLEE: She did not discuss within the context of this
22 particular form. I telephone called her immediately
23 after I had seen Victoria and discussed the case with
24 her.
25 MR GARNHAM: Go over the page. I think you will need to go
290
1 over two pages to 057. All your handwriting or some
2 other people's.
3 DR FORLEE: Some other people's.
4 MR GARNHAM: Can you tell us which, please?
5 DR FORLEE: The entry under "Action Achieved: not on it" is
6 not mine.
7 MR GARNHAM: Sorry, "Action Achieved"?
8 DR FORLEE: "Action Achieved".
9 MR GARNHAM: "Not on it", I see.
10 DR FORLEE: And the dates and signature are not mine.
11 Subsequently, next to Luciana Fredericks I wrote
12 "message left" because that is what I did on the night
13 and then she got back to me. She was the duty social
14 worker on call that night. At the time she returned my
15 message I did not have the set of notes on me so I did
16 not make any alterations, but subsequently someone has
17 altered the message left and said "yes" on top of that.
18 MR GARNHAM: That is not you, though?
19 DR FORLEE: No.
20 MR GARNHAM: Everything else on there your handwriting?
21 DR FORLEE: No. "Via liaison health visiter" and "yes" is
22 not mine; and at "summary", "yes" is not mine either and
23 photographs, all those entries are not mine.
24 MR GARNHAM: You tell us in paragraph 27 of your statement
25 that Kouao told Victoria in English to tell you what had
291
1 happened.
2 DR FORLEE: Yes.
3 MR GARNHAM: That seems odd, given that she had told you
4 that Victoria spoke very little English.
5 DR FORLEE: Yes, that did seem odd.
6 MR GARNHAM: You say you cannot recall what Victoria said?
7 DR FORLEE: Not her specific words.
8 MR GARNHAM: Can you recall how much English she had.
9 DR FORLEE: As far as I can recall it was broken in terms of
10 a few words.
11 MR GARNHAM: Do you recall as much as the gist of what
12 Victoria told you?
13 DR FORLEE: As far as I can recall it did not contradict the
14 story that had already been given to me by Kouao.
15 MR GARNHAM: That is potentially important, is it not? If
16 whatever answer is given to that, is it important
17 because if she contradicts what Kouao says that is
18 important; if she simply agrees with her that may be
19 important because it may suggest she has been coached?
20 DR FORLEE: That is true.
21 MR GARNHAM: Did you form a view as to which of them it was?
22 DR FORLEE: The latter I would have thought.
23 MR GARNHAM: Was that not worth recording?
24 DR FORLEE: Sorry, I do not think I follow.
25 MR GARNHAM: The fact that you felt that she may have been
292
1 coached, was that not worth recording?
2 DR FORLEE: Well in the CP forms, the one thing that we
3 tried to do was not to interpret what you are told but
4 to record them as you are told, so that you do not put
5 in your interpretation because that may be wrong. And
6 I have tried as far as possible to do that. I know that
7 is not entirely -- I have not done it a hundred percent
8 but I have tried my best on the CP form to do that. For
9 that reason I have not put those sort of comments on the
10 CP form.
11 MR GARNHAM: Some people might be surprised that you cannot
12 recall what Victoria said in her broken English,
13 particularly given the conflict that you had noted about
14 Victoria's ability to speak English. Did it not stick
15 in your mind because you had been told on the one hand
16 this child does not speak English, and on the other you
17 had heard the mother say to the child, in English, "tell
18 the doctor what happened"?
19 DR FORLEE: Sorry, I think I am not following you here.
20 MR GARNHAM: I am suggesting that it is surprising that you
21 cannot recall whatever it was that Victoria said to you
22 in her broken English. It is surprising because you
23 have told us that this was a particularly notable and
24 memorable case and it is surprising because the fact
25 that she was able to speak any English was in stark
293
1 contrast to what you had been led to expect.
2 DR FORLEE: I think the reason I cannot recall specifically
3 is because I had thought that I should really try and
4 interview Victoria, or that she should be interviewed at
5 some point on her own and that anything she said in this
6 context would be fairly bias and, therefore, I could not
7 put too much weight on it.
8 MR GARNHAM: Could you see volume 49 again, please.
9 Page 193. By the letter B you were asked the question:
10 "Question: Were you able to communicate with Anna?
11 "Answer: I don't recall communicating particularly
12 directly with Anna. Mrs Kouao has said she spoke
13 French.
14 "Question: When you say 'she spoke French --
15 "Answer: Anna spoke French.
16 "Question: Anna spoke French, yes?
17 "Answer: As I recall she uttered a few words in
18 English but broken English and in the setting I thought
19 it would be appropriate that any further history would
20 really need to be taken from Anna in a more appropriate
21 setting in the absence of Mr Kouao and by a French
22 interpreter"?
23 DR FORLEE: That is right.
24 MR GARNHAM: That is an accurate recollection of events, is
25 it?
294
1 DR FORLEE: Yes.
2 MR GARNHAM: Did you mean by what you said there that you
3 would arrange for Victoria to be interviewed with the
4 assistance of a French interpreter?
5 DR FORLEE: No. Again, not me specifically because this was
6 an on-call evening and that would be quite difficult to
7 arrange at this stage.
8 MR GARNHAM: Did you indicate that that was necessary
9 anywhere in the notes?
10 DR FORLEE: Not in the notes but I think I would have handed
11 that over verbally. Unfortunately there are not any
12 records of verbal handovers.
13 MR GARNHAM: Do you recall saying that it was necessary to
14 have a history taken from this child with the assistance
15 of a French speaker?
16 DR FORLEE: I do not recall specifically but I understood
17 that that was our intention from discussions the
18 following day, yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: Do you know whether that happened?
20 DR FORLEE: As far as I know, there were plans to do that.
21 I do not know whether that specifically happened.
22 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much. Sir, would that be
23 a convenient moment?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I am grateful to you, Mr Garnham. Thank you
25 very much indeed.
295
1 Dr Forlee, this is somewhat difficult because you
2 are under oath and you should not discuss your evidence
3 with other people, if anyone asks. And, certainly, you
4 should do no immediate interviews, if you are inclined
5 to do that, until your evidence is over.
6 We will adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
7 Thank you very much.
8 MR GARNHAM: Sir, before you rise can you indicate --
9 because I think there has been some confusion between
10 the parties as to what hours we are sitting tomorrow.
11 Normal; 10.00 until whenever we finish?
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. I note the hesitation, Mr Garnham,
13 about the latter part. We will certainly begin at
14 10.00 am. Experience shows it is difficult to predict
15 the end part but let us hope that we can keep it
16 reasonable, shall we say. But we will certainly start
17 at 10 o'clock.
18 MR GARNHAM: Thank you sir.
19 (5.15 pm)
20 (Hearing adjourned until 10 am the following day)
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