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Archived Transcript for 6 November 2001: Pages
1 to 50
1
1 Tuesday 6th November 2001
2 (10.00 am)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Just
4 before we begin, as we have had a break, could I ask you
5 again to make sure that your mobile phones or pagers are
6 switched off please. Thank you very much. Mr Garnham.
7 MR GARNHAM: Sir, before we start I notice that the LiveNote
8 is not coming up on our screens.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: It is on mine.
10 MR GARNHAM: It is only us that are without. That does not
11 matter then.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to pause?
13 MR GARNHAM: I think we are in a position to start now.
14 Before we call our first witness can I indicate our
15 proposed order of witnesses for today. As you will be
16 aware, sir, it has been our practice thus far and will
17 continue to be our practice to try to call witnesses in
18 approximately chronological order, grouping together
19 witnesses from the same discipline and the same
20 employers. There have been occasions and there will
21 likely be occasions in the future when it is not
22 possible to keep to that and we have one such occasion
23 today. We will begin by calling Meriel Clarke. Her
24 evidence might more logically have been called with
25 other North Middlesex Hospital witnesses but it is
2
1 convenient with your leave for us to take her first this
2 morning. Thereafter we will call PC Dewar, PC Blackman
3 DS Gorry and PS Smith.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed.
5 MR GARNHAM: I will ask Mr Sheldon to call Ms Clarke.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Sheldon.
7 MR SHELDON: Meriel Clarke please.
8 MS MERIEL ELIZABETH-ANN CLARKE (sworn)
9 MR SHELDON: Please have a seat. Could you confirm your
10 full name, please.
11 MS CLARKE: Meriel Elizabeth-Ann Clarke.
12 MR SHELDON: I think it is right that you have made
13 a statement for use by this Inquiry.
14 MS CLARKE: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: Sir, that statement is found in volume 6 of the
16 witness bundle, starting at page 41.501.
17 Do you have a copy of that statement in front of
18 you?
19 MS CLARKE: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: Could you turn to the last page.
21 MS CLARKE: Yes.
22 MR SHELDON: Is that your signature at the bottom?
23 MS CLARKE: It is.
24 MR SHELDON: Are you happy that the fact and matters in that
25 statement are true?
3
1 MS CLARKE: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: I think it is right to say you qualified as
3 a nurse in 1986?
4 MS CLARKE: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: You have been working in A&E departments in
6 various hospitals since 1988, so 13 years' or so
7 experience?
8 MS CLARKE: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: You are currently employed in the North
10 Middlesex Hospital?
11 MS CLARKE: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: And you have been since 1992, is that right?
13 MS CLARKE: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: As I understand it your role currently is as
15 Lead Nurse of Accidents and Emergency and that is a post
16 you have held officially since March this year?
17 MS CLARKE: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: Turning to your knowledge of scabies, I think
19 it is fair to say and you have not suggested otherwise
20 that you are not an expert in skin conditions or scabies
21 in particular, are you?
22 MS CLARKE: Not at all.
23 MR SHELDON: But it is a complaint that you have come across
24 on numerous occasions during your career?
25 MS CLARKE: Yes.
4
1 MR SHELDON: You say in paragraph 5 of your statement that
2 scabies was a complaint that you used to come across
3 quite often in Accident and Emergency but less so now.
4 Is that right?
5 MS CLARKE: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: When did it used to be a common complaint to
7 see in hospitals.
8 MS CLARKE: When I started training then obviously I saw
9 a lot more, but with increased GP practice people are
10 tending to go to the GP more with that.
11 MR SHELDON: So late 1980s early 1990s one might expect to
12 see a large number of cases in hospitals, but not so any
13 more?
14 MS CLARKE: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: And so I understand it, your view for the
16 reason of that is not that there are less cases but more
17 cases are being treated by GPs instead?
18 MS CLARKE: Absolutely.
19 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that nowadays you
20 will commonly see roundabout one case of scabies per
21 month in A&E, is that right?
22 MS CLARKE: Yes, it was an --
23 MR SHELDON: You describe those as confirmed cases. What do
24 you mean by confirmed cases in that context?
25 MS CLARKE: Many people come with rashes and various other
5
1 ailments. When I say confirmed cases, I meant
2 a definite diagnosis of scabies.
3 MR SHELDON: How does one make a definite diagnosis of
4 scabies?
5 MS CLARKE: They think that at that time that is what they
6 are confirming as, rather than eczema, psoriasis or
7 something like that.
8 MR SHELDON: By confirmed cases in this context do you mean
9 cases which the doctor has said he thinks are scabies or
10 she thinks is scabies?
11 MS CLARKE: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: I ask because we have heard some evidence that
13 you cannot be absolutely sure about scabies until you
14 have seen the mite or at least the burrow, but that is
15 not what you mean by confirmed cases here?
16 MS CLARKE: No.
17 MR SHELDON: You have never received any formal training on
18 the treatment of scabies or the advice to give to
19 sufferers or their carers, is that right?
20 MS CLARKE: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: All the training that you have had has been on
22 the job?
23 MS CLARKE: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: What do you mean by on the job training?
25 MS CLARKE: When I was training or junior staff nurse, like
6
1 many other things if a case comes in that you have not
2 been familiarised, you will be taught about that case at
3 the time.
4 MR SHELDON: I see. So a case will come in that you will be
5 dealing with and you will receive advice on how to
6 handle that case from somebody more senior and that is
7 how you build up your knowledge.
8 MS CLARKE: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Are you aware of whether scabies treatment and
10 advice forms part of the formal training of nurses at
11 present?
12 MS CLARKE: I am not because the training has changed since
13 I trained.
14 MR SHELDON: Although one might assume I suppose, given that
15 it did not form part of the formal training when you
16 were training when scabies was quite common, that it
17 would not be particularly likely for it to form part of
18 the training now when scabies is much less common.
19 MS CLARKE: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: So it would seem likely therefore that new
21 nurses qualifying today would have to receive their
22 scabies training on the job as well?
23 MS CLARKE: I would presume so.
24 MR SHELDON: You make the assertion in paragraph 7 of your
25 statement that any nurse with more than three months'
7
1 experience would know what advice to give a scabies
2 sufferer or those coming into contact with them. Do you
3 stand by that?
4 MS CLARKE: Yes, I was asked to estimate a junior nurse and
5 that was the figures that I chose, three months'
6 experience.
7 MR SHELDON: That would only be right, would it not, if the
8 junior nurse concerned had during the first three months
9 of their experience and practice come across a case of
10 scabies?
11 MS CLARKE: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: And given that there are a large number of
13 nurses working in a busy hospital like NMH, and that you
14 only see about one case a month, it is quite possible
15 that a junior nurse would not see a case of scabies for
16 quite a considerable time at the start of their career?
17 MS CLARKE: It is possible. I was asked to guesstimate
18 a figure and that is what I came up with, three months.
19 MR SHELDON: But you do accept that an individual nurse,
20 given the rarity of the condition, might not see a case
21 and therefore might not receive any on the job training
22 for quite some considerable time and maybe a year or
23 possibly more?
24 MS CLARKE: It is possible, yes.
25 MR SHELDON: You make the point in paragraph 6 of your
8
1 statement that there is nothing in the department
2 protocols about what advice should be given to scabies
3 sufferers or those coming into contact with them. Is
4 that right?
5 MS CLARKE: Yes, there is nothing for the patients.
6 MR SHELDON: Is it unusual for there to be an absence of
7 a formal advice in a ward protocol about what do in
8 respect of a condition with the prevalence of scabies?
9 MS CLARKE: What I meant by that statement is there were no
10 handouts or anything like that. We actually have
11 protocols, infection control manuals, what to do with an
12 outbreak of scabies in ward or something like that.
13 MR SHELDON: I see, and those manuals are available in
14 Accident and Emergency?
15 MS CLARKE: Yes, they are available in a ward at every
16 hospital.
17 MR SHELDON: You say they deal with what to do if there is
18 an outbreak of scabies on a ward. Do they have
19 a section: "This is what we advise for people coming
20 into contact with scabies sufferers in the community"?
21 MS CLARKE: No, they do not.
22 MR SHELDON: If a nurse in Accident and Emergency was faced
23 with a series of that sort of nature and there was no
24 formal protocol to assist him or her, what should he or
25 she do?
9
1 MS CLARKE: They would ask -- if you are talking about
2 a junior member of staff they would consult with
3 a senior member of nursing staff or medical staff that
4 were on duty.
5 MR SHELDON: Where would the cut-off point between junior
6 and senior members of staff come? How senior would you
7 have to be before your obligation to ask for advice
8 ceased?
9 MS CLARKE: As a nurse, if you are unsure about the advice
10 you would always ask one of your colleagues so if you
11 were unsure you would always ask.
12 MR SHELDON: So you would talk to a senior nurse or a member
13 of medical staff, a doctor?
14 MS CLARKE: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: You also make the point that advice would be
16 available should it be needed from the Infection Control
17 Unit, but that was only during office hours, is that
18 right?
19 MS CLARKE: Yes, but they are on call.
20 MR SHELDON: There is an on-call member of the Infection
21 Control Unit?
22 MS CLARKE: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: How are junior members of staff made aware that
24 they can seek advice in this manner?
25 MS CLARKE: When they first start in post they have two
10
1 weeks' supervising period and all the rules and
2 protocols of the department are gone through and it is
3 something that is fundamental in nurse training. If you
4 are ever unsure you always ask a senior for help.
5 MR SHELDON: There is now a notice available which I think
6 you have drafted, is that right?
7 MS CLARKE: Yes.
8 MR SHELDON: Can I ask that that that is put up on the
9 screen. It is something we have received recently so it
10 is not in the bundle but will be part of an update very
11 shortly. Could we put it back a little bit? That is
12 a document headed "Procedure for Telephone Advice
13 Information in A&E". That is a document I understand
14 you drafted. Is that right?
15 MS CLARKE: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: When did you draft it?
17 MS CLARKE: September.
18 MR SHELDON: And it says that in the event of a telephone
19 enquiry from a member of the public or an outside agency
20 requiring medical advice, A&E nursing staff should refer
21 the caller to NHS Direct. So the position or advice
22 given to nurses now is that they do not deal with the
23 enquiry themselves, they refer the caller on. That as
24 I understand it was not the position in mid-1999.
25 MS CLARKE: No.
11
1 MR SHELDON: You dealt with the enquiry yourself if you felt
2 able to do so, or if you did not you either referred it
3 to a senior member of staff or passed on the advice to
4 that senior member of staff.
5 MS CLARKE: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: Why the change?
7 MS CLARKE: The change is because obviously we are in
8 a vulnerable position that the advice was not being
9 documented or recorded and with the advent of NHS Direct
10 it was felt suitable that we should refer all callers
11 there because there is documentation.
12 MR SHELDON: This is a new service?
13 MS CLARKE: NHS Direct, yes.
14 MR SHELDON: When did that come into existence?
15 MS CLARKE: I am not entirely sure. Fairly recently.
16 MR SHELDON: One of its functions is to deal with routine
17 health queries from members of the public and social
18 workers, policemen and women as required?
19 MS CLARKE: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: This notice is posted where?
21 MS CLARKE: Everywhere in the A&E and all the telephones
22 have the number on as well.
23 MR SHELDON: Presumably advice of the sort we are
24 considering here is most commonly given either to the
25 patient or the people caring for the patient. Is that
12
1 right?
2 MS CLARKE: Yes.
3 MR SHELDON: And you say in your statement that you have
4 never had an enquiry from a social worker or a policeman
5 or policewoman of this nature. Does that remain the
6 case?
7 MS CLARKE: That remains the case, yes.
8 MR SHELDON: You are also I think not aware of your staff
9 ever having been asked for advice from those sources
10 either. Is that right?
11 MS CLARKE: That is correct.
12 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that you cannot
13 believe that the advice given to PC Jones -- and we will
14 come on to the detail of it in a moment -- was ever
15 given.
16 MS CLARKE: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: Have you asked everyone within your department
18 whether they did receive that enquiry?
19 MS CLARKE: I have interviewed every single member of
20 nursing staff who were on the night duty and the day
21 duty and nobody has given this advice.
22 MR SHELDON: When did you conduct those interviews?
23 MS CLARKE: Over the last month. I have traced people that
24 have left the hospital.
25 MR SHELDON: So are you confident, despite what must be
13
1 a fairly high turnover of staff in a busy A&E department
2 and presumably occasionally at least use of agency
3 staff --
4 MS CLARKE: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: -- that you have spoken to everybody who was on
6 duty as a nurse in A&E on the day and night in question?
7 MS CLARKE: I am entirely confident. I had the duty rota
8 and I have traced every single member of staff.
9 MR SHELDON: And is it the case that none of them can
10 remember giving that advice or have they all told you
11 categorically that they did not give it?
12 MS CLARKE: They have categorically told me they have not
13 given it.
14 MR SHELDON: Let us deal briefly with the treatment of
15 scabies. The treatment primarily consists, I think I am
16 right in saying, in the application of some cream?
17 MS CLARKE: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: Is that a one-off application or is it
19 something that has to be applied on numerous occasions?
20 MS CLARKE: A one-off application.
21 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that the family of
22 the infected person should also apply the cream to
23 themselves.
24 MS CLARKE: Yes.
25 MR SHELDON: Is that to prevent them catching it in the
14
1 first place or a precaution in case they have caught it
2 already?
3 MS CLARKE: It is a precautionary measure.
4 MR SHELDON: It is in case they have caught it already
5 rather than taking a prophylactic?
6 MS CLARKE: Because there can be delayed signs that they
7 have it already but not have any indication that they
8 have it.
9 MR SHELDON: Do you know how long it takes the cream to
10 work?
11 MS CLARKE: I believe you leave it on for at least a maximum
12 of 12 hours.
13 MR SHELDON: And can one expect fairly rapid relief of
14 symptoms thereafter?
15 MS CLARKE: The symptoms as far as I am aware can -- the
16 itching can last a considerable time after that.
17 MR SHELDON: I see. You would also advise family members or
18 people sharing a house with an infected person to avoid
19 prolonged skin contact?
20 MS CLARKE: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: And not to share towels for example?
22 MS CLARKE: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: And presumably bed linen as well?
24 MS CLARKE: Yes.
25 MR SHELDON: Why not share towels and bed linen?
15
1 MS CLARKE: Because it prolongs skin contact. The mite can
2 be there in the bed linen or underclothes sort of thing.
3 MR SHELDON: So you can catch it either from prolonged skin
4 contact or from coming into contact with a substance,
5 a towel or bed linen that an infected person has come
6 into prolonged contact with?
7 MS CLARKE: Yes.
8 MR SHELDON: It does not have to be skin to skin contact?
9 MS CLARKE: Primarily it is skin to skin contact but towel
10 and bed linen may have skin debris there.
11 MR SHELDON: For how long would you advise cohabitees to
12 take these precautions?
13 MS CLARKE: Once the cream has been applied and you wash all
14 the bed linen, that should be the end of that.
15 MR SHELDON: There is not a lengthy quarantine period --
16 MS CLARKE: No.
17 MR SHELDON: -- after the cream has been applied?
18 MS CLARKE: Not at all.
19 MR SHELDON: I would be right to say, would I, that if
20 a person has been treated properly with the cream you
21 would not expect them to be contagious three weeks
22 later?
23 MS CLARKE: Not at all.
24 MR SHELDON: Let us turn to the advice that WPC Jones says
25 that she was given by a member of the A&E Department,
16
1 and we can find it in volume 4 of the witness bundle,
2 page 126.
3 Paragraph 20 is the paragraph with which we are
4 primarily concerned. Have you read that paragraph
5 before?
6 MS CLARKE: Yes, I have.
7 MR SHELDON: When you were interviewing the members of staff
8 that might have been in a position to give that advice,
9 over the course of the last month or so, did you put the
10 detail to them that is contained within this paragraph?
11 MS CLARKE: Initially I asked them what advice they would
12 give and then I went through this in detail.
13 MR SHELDON: Were they aware of why you were asking them
14 whether they had given this advice or not?
15 MS CLARKE: They were.
16 MR SHELDON: So they knew it was for the purposes of this
17 enquiry and that a WPC who was giving evidence to the
18 Inquiry had said that she had received this advice from
19 one of them?
20 MS CLARKE: They knew afterwards. Initially when I asked
21 them I asked them what advice we had be giving, then
22 I went through this and obviously I had to say why I was
23 asking them that so they knew after they had given their
24 answer.
25 MR SHELDON: Did any of them change their answer once they
17
1 were aware of the circumstances?
2 MS CLARKE: No.
3 MR SHELDON: Let us look at the advice. WPC Jones says
4 there that she spoke to one of the duty nurses and was
5 informed that she had to wear protective clothing, was
6 not to remain longer than necessary in the infected
7 area, certainly not longer than an hour. She says she
8 was also told that once outside the infected area she
9 was to destroy her clothing if possible or wash in
10 disinfectant and shower. She says she was told that
11 scabies was "transmitted by close contact". Assuming
12 that advice was given, is there any of it you agree
13 with?
14 MS CLARKE: The last sentence, "Scabies is transmitted by
15 close contact".
16 MR SHELDON: I see. As to the rest of it, you disagree, do
17 you?
18 MS CLARKE: Yes, I do.
19 MR SHELDON: In saying that you disagree, are you saying
20 that this is reasonable advice but not the advice you
21 would have given or that this is just simply plainly
22 wrong and no reasonable nurse would have given it?
23 MS CLARKE: Plainly wrong.
24 MR SHELDON: So the latter?
25 MS CLARKE: Yes.
18
1 MR SHELDON: Just one short point before we go into any more
2 detail. WPC Jones says that she telephoned the Casualty
3 Department at North Middlesex Hospital. You presumably
4 have phones in the Casualty Department at North
5 Middlesex Hospital. Where are they situated?
6 MS CLARKE: In the nurses' bays.
7 MR SHELDON: Is it the case whichever nurse is passing will
8 pick it up and answer the phone or are there special
9 people there to deal with phone calls and phone
10 enquiries?
11 MS CLARKE: It depends. If she came through on a direct
12 line it would come straight to us, otherwise it would go
13 via switchboard who would direct it to the nurse's
14 station.
15 MR SHELDON: Once the phone rings in the nurse's station,
16 whoever is closest picks it up?
17 MS CLARKE: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: Are there any infectious conditions of which
19 you are aware that for which that advice would be
20 appropriate?
21 MS CLARKE: I am trying to think off the top of my head.
22 Not that I can think of immediately.
23 MR SHELDON: Have you ever advised a patient or somebody
24 caring for that patient to burn their clothes and wash
25 in disinfectant?
19
1 MS CLARKE: No, never.
2 MR SHELDON: Do I take it from the answer you gave previous
3 to that that you cannot think off the top of your head
4 of any conditions which would necessitate that advice?
5 MS CLARKE: No.
6 MR SHELDON: What is the correct advice?
7 MS CLARKE: The correct advice as far as I am aware is that
8 no special precautions have to be taken apart from
9 possibly wearing gloves if prolonged skin to skin
10 contact is envisaged, holding hands or things like that.
11 MR SHELDON: You use the word "prolonged" skin to skin
12 contact again and it is a word that you have used in
13 your statement more than once. Your clear view I take
14 it is that the skin to skin contact has to be prolonged,
15 it cannot just be fleeting in order for infection to
16 occur.
17 MS CLARKE: Absolutely.
18 MR SHELDON: Can I refer you to one brief section of the
19 transcript of the evidence given at the criminal trial
20 by Dr Mann, a dermatologist, volume 49 of the documents
21 bundle, page 111. I will not take you to this in
22 detail. Dr Mann was a consultant dermatologist giving
23 evidence for the purposes of the trial. Just one short
24 part of his evidence I would like you to comment on and
25 it is a bit that starts at about letter C on page 111.
20
1 He was posed the following question:
2 "Question: If you wait there. Sorry, there is one
3 matter because I think it was in the jury's mind.
4 I should ask you how is scabies contracted from one
5 person to another? Is it contagious?
6 "Answer: It is very easy to catch scabies and it is
7 very common in our part of London, in the Tottenham
8 area."
9 Firstly, would you agree that it is common in the
10 Tottenham area and easy to catch?
11 MS CLARKE: It is common in all areas.
12 MR SHELDON: I see. He then goes on to say in his next
13 answer under D:
14 "It is very easy to catch it from another person
15 just by physical contact. Just a handshake is enough.
16 Occasionally we get doctors catching scabies by just
17 examining patients, skin to skin contact is all you
18 need. "
19 He seems to suggest just a handshake would be
20 enough. Do you disagree with that?
21 MS CLARKE: It is very difficult for me to disagree with
22 a consultant dermatologist but everything that I have
23 read points to prolonged skin to skin contact and being
24 longer than at least five minutes.
25 MR SHELDON: Very well. The last point if I may. You have
21
1 said it is possible to catch it from using a towel that
2 a person has used who has been infected or possibly even
3 bed linen, and you would advise that towels and bed
4 linen are washed.
5 MS CLARKE: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: Would you advise something similar for example
7 for sofa covers or upholstery?
8 MS CLARKE: No, I would not because again not everything --
9 everything I have read has said it should be towels and
10 bed linen.
11 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much. Would you wait there.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed. Mr Mason?
13 MR MASON: If I may, one very quick matter.
14 You were asked about how junior nurses obtain
15 experience of scabies and I imagine a similar process on
16 the job training conditions. If you yourself or one of
17 your senior colleagues comes across a case of scabies
18 and you have a junior nurse or student nurse in the
19 department you do not think has come across it before,
20 do they get taught about your patient or do they have to
21 wait?
22 MS CLARKE: They get taught at that time by us.
23 MR MASON: So if that system is working you would expect
24 virtually all nurses with three months' experience to
25 have come across an example of scabies from a patient?
22
1 MS CLARKE: Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Mason. Ms Clarke, two questions
3 please, if you could help me to clarify. I want to be
4 sure. When someone rings the Accident and Emergency for
5 advice, Casualty for advice, you said that you track
6 down the nurses and in the very conscientious way that
7 were on duty at the time. Is it at all possible that
8 such advice could be given by a ward clerk?
9 MS CLARKE: No. All phone calls for advice are put through
10 to the nurses' desk.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Absolutely invariably even if they are very
12 busy? Sometimes nurses must be hectically busy on
13 Casualty Accident and Emergency.
14 MS CLARKE: For medical advice they are always put through.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: And you know, just to press the point a bit
16 more, you could be absolutely sure that there is no
17 possibility of such advice being given by a ward clerk?
18 MS CLARKE: As far as I am aware it has never been given.
19 It has been the practice since ever I have worked there
20 that all phone calls come through into the main
21 department.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: The second point, could you look at
23 paragraph 11 of your statement and I want to read a
24 section out of it. I want to be sure that that is
25 expressed exactly as you want it expressed. The
23
1 sentence that is fifth begins:
2 "There certainly would not have been any need
3 whatsoever for anyone visiting the house with an
4 inhabitant who has scabies to wear protective clothing,
5 other than gloves if prolonged skin to skin contact was
6 envisaged."
7 That remains your professional view?
8 MS CLARKE: It does, yes.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: You do not want to qualify it in any way?
10 MS CLARKE: Other than gloves, no.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Other than gloves. If you were visiting as a
12 nurse --
13 MS CLARKE: Yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: -- that is the only precaution you would
15 take?
16 MS CLARKE: Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Sheldon?
18 MR SHELDON: There is one very brief matter. One of the
19 representatives, an interested party, has made a point
20 to me and suggested that I put it to Ms Clarke. I want
21 to make sure I get it right before I put it and so
22 I wonder if I might ask your permission if you were to
23 rise for no more than two minutes so that we could
24 confer briefly to make sure the point is well understood
25 and that I can then put it. I apologise. It is one of
24
1 the difficulties of getting this sort of information
2 this late on.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: That is all right. I am quite happy to
4 accommodate that. Would someone be kind enough to let
5 me know when you are ready to resume?
6 MR SHELDON: Certainly.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: We will rise.
8 (A short break)
9 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much indeed. My apologies for
10 the interruption. I am sorry to have kept you hanging
11 around Ms Clarke. There is one final matter I should
12 put to you. You recall that Dr Mann said in part of the
13 evidence of the criminal trial I referred you to that
14 scabies could be contracted through simply shaking
15 hands. I have been passed a number of documents in the
16 short adjournment. One of them is a leaflet issued
17 about a drug company called Derbac. It says:
18 "Scabies is easily transmitted. It can also result
19 from simply holding hands."
20 I have also been handed a document from the Internet
21 headed "Sexually Transmitted Diseases" which has
22 a section on transmission of scabies which says:
23 "Scabies is very contagious, usually spread by~..."
24 a number of things, one of which shaking hands.
25 In the light of all that evidence, irrespective of
25
1 whether or not you agree with it, do you accept that
2 there is a credible medical opinion to the effect that
3 you can catch scabies from holding hands with a person
4 infected or similar brief contact?
5 MS CLARKE: If that is the evidence that you are saying,
6 yes.
7 MR SHELDON: Thank you very much indeed. That is all
8 I have.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Just so that I am clear, would you say --
10 I mean, just give me your professional opinion -- would
11 you say that if you were simply to hold a patient's hand
12 while you examined the patient's hand, or to shake hands
13 with someone fleetingly as it were, that you would be
14 extraordinarily unlucky to catch scabies or would you
15 say it would be a risk you should be very aware of?
16 MS CLARKE: I personally would say it was a very small risk
17 that you would have. All that I have been at all times
18 and all I have read is that it is prolonged contact,
19 holding hands would be for a prolonged period of time.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed.
21 MR SHELDON: Thank you. Ms Clarke please feel free to
22 resume your seat.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Garnham?
24 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Our next witness is PC Dewar.
25 PC RACHEL DEWAR (sworn)
26
1 MR GARNHAM: Good morning. I think it is right that you are
2 a police constable in the Metropolitan Police?
3 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
4 MR GARNHAM: What is your professional address?
5 PC DEWAR: Edgware Police Station, Whitchurch Lane, Edgware
6 HA8 6LA.
7 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. You have made one statement for
8 this Inquiry, I think. Sir, it is in volume 4 of the
9 green files at page 71. I think it copy of that is in
10 front of you. Is that right?
11 PC DEWAR: That is right.
12 MR GARNHAM: Could you look through it and confirm that you
13 have signed it?
14 PC DEWAR: That is my signature.
15 MR GARNHAM: Can you confirm to us that the contents of that
16 statement are true?
17 PC DEWAR: There is a couple of points I want to raise from
18 that statement.
19 MR GARNHAM: Will you do so now?
20 PC DEWAR: The first one is that it relates to checks that
21 I carried out. It says that I carried out the checks
22 but in actual fact --
23 MR GARNHAM: Can you take us to where you are referring to?
24 PC DEWAR: It is paragraph 4, second page.
25 MR GARNHAM: As I read your statement there is a lengthy
27
1 paragraph 2 that runs from page 1 right across page 2
2 into page 3.
3 PC DEWAR: It is page 2, starting: "On the same day I did an
4 SO3 check ...". What may have happened in practice, as
5 at the time I was working with WPC Blackman, that she
6 may have actually carried out those checks on my behalf.
7 The second thing is that the next paragraph on
8 page 2, third line down, says:
9 "On the mobile I received a call from
10 Michelle Hines~..."
11 That was my recollection but in actual fact what
12 happened was that I received a call on my pager and from
13 that I called Michelle Hines.
14 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. How have you come to realise what
15 you put in that statement is not correct?
16 PC DEWAR: Because I have since been able to have a look at
17 a sheet of paper from our admin staff which says that
18 they paged me at I think it was 10.30 on the 15th.
19 MR GARNHAM: And that demonstrates that your recollection as
20 put in this statement is incorrect?
21 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
22 MR GARNHAM: Are there any other changes you wish to make?
23 PC DEWAR: I want to make it clear the issue about CPT
24 officers.
25 MR GARNHAM: Can we return to that? I am going to ask you
28
1 about that unless there is a point in your statement
2 that is wrong.
3 PC DEWAR: As long as I can clarify it.
4 MR GARNHAM: I will give you that opportunity. In addition
5 to that statement, for the benefit of this Inquiry
6 I think it is right that you also made two statements
7 for the CPS.
8 PC DEWAR: I made one statement for the CPS.
9 MR GARNHAM: I wonder if you could be given volume 46 of the
10 black files please. Page 50. We see there a statement
11 you made on 14th March 2000.
12 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
13 MR GARNHAM: If you go to page 52, it appears we have
14 a second statement made by you on 5th April 2000.
15 PC DEWAR: That is correct. I have not seen this statement
16 since I made it and had forgotten, to be honest, that
17 I made the second statement in addition.
18 MR GARNHAM: Would you accept there are two CPS statements?
19 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
20 MR GARNHAM: You also were called to give evidence at the
21 Central Criminal Court at the trial of Manning and
22 Kouao, is that right?
23 PC DEWAR: Yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: You will note the transcript of that evidence
25 is in volume 48, page 227.
29
1 I think it is right that you have been a police
2 officer now for eight years?
3 PC DEWAR: I have indeed.
4 MR GARNHAM: You joined Brent Child Protection Team
5 in July 1998?
6 PC DEWAR: That is right.
7 MR GARNHAM: So by the time with which we are concerned you
8 had been a member of that team for a little over a year?
9 PC DEWAR: That is right.
10 MR GARNHAM: You enclose with your statement a copy of your
11 job description.
12 PC DEWAR: Yes.
13 MR GARNHAM: We have a copy of that in volume 32, page 344,
14 and I wonder if you could be shown that please. You
15 will need to look at 345, I am sorry.
16 PC DEWAR: I have that page.
17 MR GARNHAM: Does that set out the roles that a police
18 constable in the CPT is to undertake?
19 PC DEWAR: It does.
20 MR GARNHAM: Was that current at the time with which we are
21 concerned, summer of 1999?
22 PC DEWAR: I believe it was.
23 MR GARNHAM: You have seen it before?
24 PC DEWAR: I have.
25 MR GARNHAM: Do you regard it as an accurate statement of
30
1 your job, adequate description of your job?
2 PC DEWAR: It does cover most things.
3 MR GARNHAM: There are other things in addition to that, but
4 all that is there is part of your job?
5 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
6 MR GARNHAM: The first bullet point under paragraph 7.4 on
7 page 345 is investigating allegations of crime allocated
8 to you.
9 PC DEWAR: Yes, I see that.
10 MR GARNHAM: Did you understand that to be one of the
11 primary purposes of your post?
12 PC DEWAR: Yes, it is as a police officer to investigate
13 crime.
14 MR GARNHAM: In the context of the Child Protection Team
15 what does such an investigation normally entail?
16 PC DEWAR: It would normally entail interviewing a child on
17 memorandum of good practice interview. If there is an
18 allegation of crime it would be to interview the alleged
19 abuser, it would be to conduct any medical examination,
20 if appropriate, to conduct searches if appropriate, to
21 conduct certain paperwork.
22 MR GARNHAM: A number of the things in other words that are
23 set out in the subsequent bullet points under that
24 paragraph?
25 PC DEWAR: Yes.
31
1 MR GARNHAM: Is it possible for you to tell us how long such
2 an investigation normally takes or do they vary so much
3 that an answer to that would be meaningless?
4 PC DEWAR: They vary so much it really depends on the
5 individual case. You take each case individually.
6 MR GARNHAM: In paragraph 8H of your statement, page 4, do
7 you have that?
8 PC DEWAR: Yes.
9 MR GARNHAM: You say:
10 "If I was the designated officer under Section 46
11 Children Act 1989, I took the steps taken as described
12 above."
13 I will come back to the steps that you took but
14 I want to ask you a little about the introductory words
15 to that paragraph. Did you know at the time,
16 July/August 1999, whether you were or were not the
17 designated officer?
18 PC DEWAR: Yes I did. I was the designated officer on that
19 date.
20 MR GARNHAM: How is it that you came to write that statement
21 in those particular terms?
22 PC DEWAR: Okay, I wonder whether we could put up on the
23 screen the list of questions that I was asked to answer
24 for the Inquiry. It is under G.
25 MR GARNHAM: Let me give the reference for that. It is
32
1 volume 4, page 6 and 7. If we go to G first of all, so
2 slide it up the page, please, that is the questions that
3 were directed expressly to you?
4 PC DEWAR: That is right.
5 MR GARNHAM: What is it you want to refer to?
6 PC DEWAR: As you can see under G they relate to WPC Dewar
7 and I answered those questions.
8 MR GARNHAM: If we go over the page to page 7.
9 PC DEWAR: You can see I answered 1 to 8. What then
10 happened is I noticed afterwards that there was
11 questions relating to H, the designated officer in
12 relation to police protection taken up by WPC Dewar.
13 I was quite confused about the wording of that question
14 because I knew that I was the designated officer for
15 this Inquiry and so what I did, I actually asked my
16 barrister and actually said as the designated officer
17 surely I should be answering questions under H; however
18 the way H is made out, as though it is asking somebody
19 else to answer that question.
20 MR GARNHAM: Yes, it is.
21 PC DEWAR: So I can see why the confusion has been raised
22 already about the way I answered it, with the word "if".
23 But I did know I was the designated officer otherwise
24 I would not have brought that question into existence at
25 all and it was confusion in terms of the way the
33
1 question was asked and that is what led to the way the
2 answer was made.
3 MR GARNHAM: When you deal with H, and I confess I had not
4 understood until now the purpose of the letter H in the
5 margin on page 4 but I can see now what you intended by
6 it, you then only answer the four questions under H with
7 the single sentence.
8 PC DEWAR: That is right.
9 MR GARNHAM: Why is that?
10 PC DEWAR: Because there was nothing extra I could have
11 added as a result of H 1 to 4 which I had not already
12 answered in my points 1 to 8 because they very much
13 overlap my questions.
14 MR GARNHAM: I see. What did you regard in the summer of
15 1999 to be the functions of the designated officer?
16 PC DEWAR: The designated officer basically has
17 responsibility of under Section 46 of the Children Act
18 to enquire into the investigation.
19 MR GARNHAM: Did you see the role of a designated officer as
20 being in any sense supervisory of the officer in the
21 case?
22 PC DEWAR: No I did not. It is one and the same person.
23 MR GARNHAM: What then is the purpose as you understand it
24 of having the two titles, officer in the case and
25 designated officer?
34
1 PC DEWAR: All I know is that as a Child Protection Team
2 officer, which I am, as a DC, I am able to take on the
3 role as a designated officer.
4 MR GARNHAM: Did you see there being any distinction between
5 on the one hand the designated officer and on the other
6 the officer in the case?
7 PC DEWAR: Not particularly, no.
8 MR GARNHAM: I wonder if you can be shown please in
9 volume 34 page 47.113.
10 PC DEWAR: The designated officer has certain roles but they
11 are roles that I had been undertaking as the
12 investigating officer anyway.
13 MR GARNHAM: Do you have there a Home Office circular dated
14 30th July 1991?
15 PC DEWAR: I do.
16 MR GARNHAM: Have you ever seen it before?
17 PC DEWAR: Only since this Inquiry started.
18 MR GARNHAM: You had not seen it, you were not aware of it
19 at the time with which we are concerned?
20 PC DEWAR: No, indeed in 1991 I had not joined the
21 Metropolitan Police.
22 MR GARNHAM: No, but it was current as we understand it
23 thereafter, but you had not seen it?
24 PC DEWAR: It had never been brought to my attention.
25 MR GARNHAM: Go if you will to paragraph 19. Do you see
35
1 there it says:
2 "The chief officer was required by section 463E to
3 designate the officer who will be responsible for
4 enquiring into cases in which they must take children
5 into their protection. He should be contacted as soon
6 as is practical by the officer in the case. Chief
7 officers may wish to consider designating officers of
8 the rank of inspector for the purposes of this section."
9 PC DEWAR: I see that.
10 MR GARNHAM: It is implicit in that paragraph, is it not,
11 that the officer in the case and the designated officer
12 are two different individuals?
13 PC DEWAR: It is but I was not told of this.
14 MR GARNHAM: I understand that.
15 PC DEWAR: But it is.
16 MR GARNHAM: Are you aware of any changes in Metropolitan
17 Police procedure in relation to the use of designated
18 officers very recently?
19 PC DEWAR: No. All I have been told is as a DC or a PC you
20 can be a designated officer and that is what would have
21 happened and what indeed did happen in this
22 investigation.
23 MR GARNHAM: In fact your job description which we looked at
24 a few moments ago expressly directs that you may act as
25 designated officer when appropriate, I think.
36
1 PC DEWAR: That is right.
2 MR GARNHAM: So that what you are telling us is supported by
3 the job description with which the Metropolitan Police
4 supplied you.
5 PC DEWAR: That is correct and also in various manuals.
6 MR GARNHAM: Thank you for that. Which manuals do you have
7 in mind?
8 PC DEWAR: The Child Protection Course Manual 1995 says that
9 it can be an inspector -- it can be the detective
10 inspector of the Child Protection Team, or a DC, PC or
11 in their absence it could be an inspector, uniform
12 inspector.
13 MR GARNHAM: That is a slightly different point I think, is
14 it not, as to the rank that a designated officer should
15 hold? It is a different point to whether that should be
16 a different individual from the officer in the case.
17 Does that manual suggest that the two posts can be held
18 by the same person?
19 PC DEWAR: It certainly does.
20 MR GARNHAM: Sir, I do not think that is a manual we have
21 seen. I will be corrected if I am wrong. If it is not,
22 I wonder if I could ask the Metropolitan Police to
23 provide a copy of that.
24 PC DEWAR: I can tell you which section if you would like.
25 MR GARNHAM: Please.
37
1 PC DEWAR: It is section 7, 6.21.
2 MR GARNHAM: Do you have a copy of it there?
3 PC DEWAR: I believe I have a photocopy in my bag.
4 MR GARNHAM: Would you be kind enough to get it please?
5 PC DEWAR: Sure.
6 MR GARNHAM: Could I see it first, please? (Handed).
7 I wonder if that could be put up on the screen,
8 please. Sir, this is just a short extract of this
9 document and I would be grateful if the Metropolitan
10 Police could supply us with the whole of it if we do not
11 already have it.
12 That is the section you want to refer to I think?
13 PC DEWAR: That is right.
14 MR GARNHAM: Can we see at the bottom, 6.21:
15 "Within the Metropolitan Police designated officers
16 will be detective inspectors in charge of CPTs," next
17 page, "trained CPT officers or in their absence an
18 officer of the rank of inspector."
19 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
20 MR GARNHAM: That plainly confirms your assertion that
21 officers who are trained CPT officers can hold that
22 post. Can you take us to the passage that confirms that
23 the designated officer can be the same person as the
24 officer in the case?
25 PC DEWAR: I do not actually recall seeing that but that is
38
1 common practice and I do not remember a time when we
2 have had an investigating officer and a designated
3 officer as two separate people.
4 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. Certainly you are confident that
5 there was no separate designated officer in Victoria's
6 case?
7 PC DEWAR: 100 per cent confident. Someone, I do not know
8 who.
9 MR WILLIAMS: May I just assist?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Williams.
11 MR WILLIAMS: The document in question has been disclosed.
12 It is found in volume 32, page 440.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I am obliged to Mr Williams, thank you.
14 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much. As you told us
15 Miss Dewar, in your statement you respond to a series of
16 questions posed by the Inquiry and we have looked at one
17 of those. In paragraph 4 of your statement you set out
18 your answer to question 4 and the numbers in your
19 statement refer to the numbers of the questions asked by
20 the Inquiry I think. Is that right?
21 PC DEWAR: Can you repeat that? I did not understand what
22 you meant.
23 MR GARNHAM: In the paragraph that you have labelled "4" in
24 your statement you answer what was the fourth Inquiry
25 question.
39
1 PC DEWAR: About training?
2 MR GARNHAM: Yes.
3 PC DEWAR: Yes.
4 MR GARNHAM: So that we are clear, in your statement there
5 are a number of paragraphs, some of which have numbers
6 beside them and some do not.
7 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
8 MR GARNHAM: And the paragraph numbers are intended to refer
9 to the questions.
10 PC DEWAR: That is right.
11 MR GARNHAM: If we go to the third page and see the number
12 4, that is your answer to the fourth question posed by
13 the Inquiry?
14 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
15 MR GARNHAM: You set out there something about your
16 training.
17 PC DEWAR: I do.
18 MR GARNHAM: You had one three-day child protection training
19 course in December 1998.
20 PC DEWAR: I did.
21 MR GARNHAM: Was that the totality of the training you
22 received while you were a member of the CP team?
23 PC DEWAR: In terms of child protection course, that is the
24 only one I received.
25 MR GARNHAM: It was three days long?
40
1 PC DEWAR: It was just three days and it consisted really of
2 like presentations by various members of staff. For
3 example I remember clearly there was one on interview
4 training, interview of children, and if I recall
5 correctly only one person in that room had not already
6 received the proper training course on that so it seemed
7 to be a bit of a waste of time, those three days, and
8 the fact that it taught us many things that we already
9 knew and a lot of the things that we did not know did
10 not really direct in the right way.
11 MR GARNHAM: When you say it taught you things you already
12 knew, how would you have known them, from doing the job
13 in practice?
14 PC DEWAR: Yes, because by that stage I had already been on
15 the Child Protection Team six months and I had already
16 been trained in interviewing children, in fact I was
17 trained just before I joined the Child Protection Team
18 and therefore you know there were really -- I was
19 already familiar with what was presented on that course.
20 MR GARNHAM: You tell us that you were given a copy of the
21 Department of Health publication "Working Together".
22 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
23 MR GARNHAM: Do you recall which edition you were given?
24 PC DEWAR: I cannot recall the year exactly but it was one
25 in existence at the time, in 1999.
41
1 MR GARNHAM: And one that had been in existence for some
2 time?
3 PC DEWAR: That is right, it has just been replaced very
4 recently.
5 MR GARNHAM: When were you given that booklet?
6 PC DEWAR: From my memory, in actual fact what happened was
7 that when you joined the Child Protection Team you have
8 an interview board where they ask you questions on
9 legislation and there is it is very much in my interests
10 to read and research and gather the information, and
11 therefore what I know I did was obtain as much
12 information in as many manuals as I could prior to that
13 interview.
14 MR GARNHAM: Was this one of them?
15 PC DEWAR: I believe this was one of them. I am not sure
16 whether I kept that one when I joined or whether I was
17 given one shortly after. This is quite a long time ago
18 but~...
19 MR GARNHAM: But you had certainly seen one before you
20 joined the team?
21 PC DEWAR: Yes I had.
22 MR GARNHAM: Did you once you were a member of the team have
23 your own copy of "Working Together"?
24 PC DEWAR: Like I said, I do not know whether it was the one
25 that I picked up before joining the team or one -- or
42
1 whether it was given to me or not. I know in certain of
2 the manuals that we had they were not actively given to
3 us. Often it was a case of you trying to acquire them,
4 people leaving.
5 MR GARNHAM: I am interested for the moment just in "Working
6 Together" and I want to know what access you had to that
7 publication.
8 PC DEWAR: I did have it in my tray.
9 MR GARNHAM: In your possession?
10 PC DEWAR: In my possession.
11 MR GARNHAM: You had it in your possession throughout your
12 time as a child protection officer?
13 PC DEWAR: I did.
14 MR GARNHAM: You read it before your interview?
15 PC DEWAR: That is right.
16 MR GARNHAM: From cover to cover?
17 PC DEWAR: Yes I did.
18 MR GARNHAM: Thereafter, did you have occasion to read the
19 publication?
20 PC DEWAR: As times -- you know, if you are faced with
21 a situation where you are not quite sure which way to go
22 or you know you want to refresh your memory then of
23 course I would look at it.
24 MR GARNHAM: Give us a flavour. How often would you have
25 occasion to refer to that book?
43
1 PC DEWAR: It is difficult to say because there was many
2 other manuals as well and you know, and they all have
3 a different sort of stance or like that one was
4 obviously working together and there is purely police
5 ones and there is purely more social services.
6 MR GARNHAM: For the moment I am just asking you about
7 "Working Together". Can you give an idea of how often
8 you would have occasion to refer to it?
9 PC DEWAR: It is really difficult for me to say.
10 MR GARNHAM: Is it something you were constantly thumbing
11 through or something you would look at once in a blue
12 moon?
13 PC DEWAR: It was neither in a blue moon or constantly
14 thumbing through. It was probably in between.
15 MR GARNHAM: That gives us some idea. Thank you. You
16 explained that you were interviewed for the job on this
17 Child Protection Team and you explained that in order to
18 get that job you did some research for yourself.
19 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
20 MR GARNHAM: Do I take it from that that you were keen to
21 get this post?
22 PC DEWAR: Definitely.
23 MR GARNHAM: What was its attraction as far as you were
24 concerned?
25 PC DEWAR: Because obviously I wanted a challenging job,
44
1 I wanted a role which was investigation and you could
2 see from my background that I have worked with very much
3 sort of victim focused, you know what I like dealing
4 with and you can see from an early point in my career
5 I had managed to obtain a SOIT course, sexual
6 investigation courses, where you can chaperone victims
7 of rape, that kind of thing, and I worked on the
8 Domestic Violence Unit and it seemed like a natural
9 progression for me.
10 MR GARNHAM: Was it a competitive post to try and get? Did
11 you have to work hard to get this post?
12 PC DEWAR: From the point of view that I was fairly young in
13 service yes, because when I joined I joined before, you
14 know, five years in the police and so from my point of
15 view it was, but I purposely sort of tailor-made my
16 career and made sure I picked up the skills to help me
17 get that particular job, but that is my own personal
18 experience. But I know having spoken to other people
19 that it was a job that they desperately wanted like, you
20 know, proper detective constables, detective sergeants
21 to apply for.
22 MR GARNHAM: Were your colleagues in the Met, were there
23 a good number of them who were keen to get on to child
24 protection teams or were you a rarity in that?
25 PC DEWAR: I would say not. It was not the most popular of
45
1 postings but when I came to do my board I remember,
2 I would say that there was twice as many jobs -- say for
3 example there was 20 people went for the job, probably
4 there was 10 particular positions so you had like one in
5 two chance to get.
6 MR GARNHAM: How does that compare with other jobs you have
7 applied for in the police?
8 PC DEWAR: Again it is difficult to say because the only
9 other job I have had was in the Domestic Violence Unit
10 and I remember there was three people going for one job.
11 Again, I do not think that that was the most popular of
12 jobs either.
13 MR GARNHAM: Thank you for that. Can I take you back
14 a little, please. You tell us in paragraph 1 that you
15 attended the usual 20-week introductory training course
16 when you joined the police.
17 PC DEWAR: Yes.
18 MR GARNHAM: Did that course cover child protection?
19 PC DEWAR: It did but it covered many other issues as well.
20 MR GARNHAM: Do you remember how much time was devoted to
21 child protection?
22 PC DEWAR: Not that much to honest.
23 MR GARNHAM: A week, a month, a day, an hour?
24 PC DEWAR: I would say less than a week to the best of my
25 memory.
46
1 MR GARNHAM: By the time we get to June/July 1999, did you
2 feel that from a training point of view you were
3 adequately equipped to deal with serious child abuse
4 cases?
5 PC DEWAR: No, because I had come from an environment where
6 I was, like I said, I was working in domestic violence.
7 The highest level of crime I would deal with would be
8 actual bodily harm. I then went straight into
9 a position where straightaway I was dealing with sexual
10 offences, GBH's, very serious offences and we were never
11 given any training as such. The only thing I could do
12 was me myself be proactive in doing -- getting on the
13 training courses I could, but obviously even if you are
14 proactive there is only a limited amount of proactivity
15 you can do.
16 MR GARNHAM: Did you ever attend the CID foundation course.
17 PC DEWAR: No.
18 MR GARNHAM: Did you ever have any specialised training in
19 detective work?
20 PC DEWAR: No.
21 MR GARNHAM: Did you have any training in dealing with the
22 sort of serious offences you have described like
23 grievous bodily harm and sexual offences?
24 PC DEWAR: No, only that I was a SOIT officer, sexual
25 offences, but that was primarily to deal with from
47
1 a victim point of view, not from investigation point of
2 view.
3 MR GARNHAM: Can we take it that by the time we get to the
4 summer of 1999 you had had no training in detective
5 work?
6 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
7 MR GARNHAM: Can I ask you more about your training?
8 Looking back at the totality of the training you had had
9 since you joined the police, had you had any express
10 training about the role of the investigative officer in
11 child protection cases?
12 PC DEWAR: No.
13 MR GARNHAM: Had you had any training about what
14 a designated officer should do?
15 PC DEWAR: No, just apart from reading it in manuals.
16 MR GARNHAM: What training had you had about the
17 relationship between police child protection teams and
18 social services?
19 PC DEWAR: We had had a couple of interagency days.
20 I cannot actually remember when they were, whether we
21 had had one by the time, but I suspect that we probably
22 did have one by the time that this particular
23 incident --
24 MR GARNHAM: Can you recall what you were told about joint
25 investigations and social services and single agency
48
1 investigations?
2 PC DEWAR: You pick that up when you join, you know, through
3 on the work, on the job experience.
4 MR GARNHAM: You do not recall having any express training
5 about it?
6 PC DEWAR: No, again it is mentioned in various manuals.
7 MR GARNHAM: Do you remember what you were taught about
8 police protection for children?
9 PC DEWAR: Again with police protection it is a case of --
10 that is something that I would have -- I know I did
11 learn before I joined and as soon as I then joined the
12 Metropolitan Police, the Child Protection Team, I would
13 then ask various members of more experienced staff, so
14 that would be the kind of way I would pick it up.
15 MR GARNHAM: You talk in your statement about police
16 protection orders.
17 PC DEWAR: That is right.
18 MR GARNHAM: What do you mean by a police protection order?
19 PC DEWAR: I know there is no such order, it is actually
20 police protection, but it is just used every day, people
21 refer to it, police officers refer to it and social
22 services as PPO's.
23 MR GARNHAM: What do you understand that to mean?
24 PC DEWAR: Taking a child into police protection, if the
25 child is -- if there is reasonable cause to suspect that
49
1 the child likely to suffer significant harm then police
2 protection should be taken out.
3 MR GARNHAM: I will come back to that. Finally on what you
4 were trained, what were you trained and taught about
5 emergency protection orders?
6 PC DEWAR: Emergency protection orders, again it is
7 something which I would have learned for my interview,
8 my job interview and it is something that you would pick
9 up on the job.
10 MR GARNHAM: But you recall no express training programme
11 relating to that?
12 PC DEWAR: No.
13 MR GARNHAM: The impression we are left with is this, and
14 tell me if I have got this wrong, that you learned
15 a good deal about police child protection work through
16 your own reading?
17 PC DEWAR: That is correct.
18 MR GARNHAM: And you learned some from carrying out the work
19 on the job training so to speak?
20 PC DEWAR: That is right, with the guidance of other people.
21 MR GARNHAM: But that aside, you appear to have had no
22 express training on any of the subjects I have covered.
23 PC DEWAR: That is right. I cannot remember exactly what
24 was covered in the interagency training but it would
25 only have been a two-day -- it was only one day and then
50
1 maybe another year later another day and we had the odd
2 training days at Bushey.
3 MR GARNHAM: In answer to question 8 on the last page of
4 your statement, you were asked to describe the level of
5 resources for child protection investigations in your
6 area and your view of their adequacy and your answer is
7 a single sentence:
8 "Brent is a very busy child protection team and we
9 have always felt that we required more resources."
10 PC DEWAR: That is correct. I have actually prepared some
11 figures, I do not know whether that would be of help if
12 I refer to them.
13 MR GARNHAM: In answer to the question as to how busy it
14 was?
15 PC DEWAR: That is right.
16 MR GARNHAM: Yes, please. In 1999 Brent Child Protection
17 Team dealt with 750 referrals and that is an increase of
18 over 150 from the previous year, because in 1998 it was
19 595 and in 1997 it was 466. So there is an upward
20 trend?
21 PC DEWAR: We took a slight dip in 2000 at 713, but the
22 referrals for this year, I did the figures up until the
23 4th October, and it was 620.
24 MR GARNHAM: It may well be that there are other officers in
25 the Metropolitan Police who can help us with this later,
|
