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Archived Transcript for 16 January 2002: Pages
1 to 50
1
1 Wednesday, 16th January 2002
2 (10.00 am)
3 (TRANSCRIPT DOES NOT INCLUDE PRIVATE SESSION)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Morning ladies and gentlemen. Mr Garnham.
5 MR GARNHAM: I think we just need Mr Herbert and the witness
6 back.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Fine. Could we have the witness,
8 Ms Baptiste, and her counsel.
9 MS CAROLE BAPTISTE (continued)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning Ms Baptiste. You remain under
11 oath from yesterday and we got to the point where
12 Mr Herbert was asking you some questions.
13 MR HERBERT: Sir, I just apologise for the slight delay this
14 morning. There were some discussions between counsel.
15 Ms Baptiste, I looked yesterday very briefly at some
16 of the material from Dr Rossiter, namely the discharge
17 summary and a couple of supplementary letters, one dated
18 13th August, and the 2nd September 1999. You need not
19 turn to it but we do have the benefit of
20 Miss Arthurworrey's statement, where she informed the
21 Inquiry that she did not see the discharge summary, she
22 did not see any notes of skeletal diagrams taken of
23 Victoria, she did not see any photographs, she did not
24 know that there was a referral to a psychiatrist at the
25 North Middlesex Hospital and she was not told that
2
1 Victoria had wet her bed on a number of nights whilst at
2 that hospital.
3 If that information is not present in a social
4 worker that you are managing, what effect does that have
5 on your ability to manage?
6 MS BAPTISTE: It has a very limiting effect because we can
7 only work on the basis of the information that is
8 presented to us.
9 MR HERBERT: During the time that you were managing
10 Miss Arthurworrey, between 31st -- in respect of
11 Victoria's case -- 31st July and 5th November, was there
12 ever any suggestion that there were medical reports or
13 information that was outstanding?
14 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
15 MR HERBERT: As far as collating that, were you aware that
16 efforts were being made to obtain that information?
17 MS BAPTISTE: Yes, I was.
18 MR HERBERT: Whose responsibility normally is it for such
19 information as to medical reports to be given to Social
20 Services?
21 MS BAPTISTE: Sorry?
22 MR HERBERT: Whose responsibility is it for medical
23 information of the sort that we see in the discharge
24 summary to be communicated to Social Services? What is
25 the protocol normally for the giving of medical
3
1 information to Social Services?
2 MS BAPTISTE: It has been such a long time that regarding
3 practice issues I am not altogether clear, but it would
4 have been the responsibility of the social worker to
5 contact the hospital to try and ascertain any relevant
6 information.
7 MR HERBERT: What is the hospital's duty?
8 MS BAPTISTE: To pass on that information that would help
9 assist any kind of assessment.
10 MR HERBERT: Is it usual for discharge not to accompany
11 a child's file?
12 MS BAPTISTE: I would have said that it was variable, that
13 depending on the nature of the case sometimes we would
14 get information but often it would be quite delayed.
15 MR HERBERT: Would it have been as delayed as three and
16 a half months?
17 MS BAPTISTE: That is a difficult one to answer.
18 MR HERBERT: In this case I think we are aware that some of
19 the information did not turn up until after Victoria had
20 died, some five months. Is that sort of delay usual?
21 MS BAPTISTE: I think it is fair to say that normally most
22 of our evidence would be -- any immediate evidence would
23 be brought to a strategy meeting or would follow soon
24 after and the significant information would be around
25 the body maps and some kind of report to explain some of
4
1 the injuries in accordance with the body map.
2 MR HERBERT: I asked you one matter which I said I would
3 come back to this morning in relation to the report
4 which you never saw prepared upon you by Alistair Prince
5 in relation to Miss B. As far as that is concerned, it
6 is at bundle 29/47.760 and 761. Could you be given that
7 file briefly. Can you look again at pages 760 and 761
8 of that report. On page 761, the next page, please.
9 Have you read both pages now, 760 and 761?
10 MS BAPTISTE: I just need to go back to 760 quickly. Yes.
11 MR HERBERT: Is there any reason that you can think of why
12 this report was not discussed with you by your managers
13 at the time?
14 MS BAPTISTE: I have no understanding as to why this was not
15 discussed with me.
16 MR HERBERT: There is a strong suggestion at the top of
17 page 761 that you yourself were not properly managed by
18 Mr Heatley. Can you comment on that at all?
19 MS BAPTISTE: There was certainly a lot of issues around
20 support for me regarding Mr Heatley.
21 MR HERBERT: On that point in relation to your management,
22 during those three months between end of August and
23 5th November 1999, what management supervision did you
24 receive?
25 MS BAPTISTE: I do not recollect at the moment.
5
1 MR HERBERT: Did you receive any at all?
2 MS BAPTISTE: Probably.
3 MR HERBERT: Was that so detailed that it would go into
4 discussion of case files?
5 MS BAPTISTE: Certainly one of the things that I did was to
6 bring a list of cases that were allocated to Miss B and
7 we would go through any concerns or any practice issues
8 that I felt perhaps were a bit -- were of concern.
9 MR HERBERT: Were case files during that period, August,
10 September, October and early part of November, were they
11 discussed in team meetings at all?
12 MS BAPTISTE: In relation to the Long Term Team that I was
13 in or Investigation and Assessment?
14 MR HERBERT: Investigation and Assessment.
15 MS BAPTISTE: In relation to Investigation and Assessment,
16 I believe we tried to develop a system where we could
17 have case discussion. Initially it was agreed that we
18 would experiment with it because workers felt quite
19 dissatisfied with the lack of choice and also I think
20 the system, the current system made it very difficult to
21 get an overview of what was coming in it anyway, so it
22 was agreed that we would try to have group case
23 discussion. I think it may have gone on for about three
24 or four weeks. Lots of issues.
25 I mean the first -- my recollection was that the
6
1 first one everyone attended and it was fairly
2 successful. We were able to allocate cases and people
3 had an element of choice about the cases that they could
4 take on. And subsequent ones there was less attendance,
5 for various reasons, either people being on training or
6 off sick, and I think the overall feedback was that
7 people were either losing interest or were under
8 pressure or feeling pressures from other areas of work.
9 MR HERBERT: Finally, in relation to that three month period
10 we have been talking about, did your managers bring to
11 your attention any complaints from within your team
12 about your lack of availability in terms of supervision
13 of that team?
14 MS BAPTISTE: No. The only time it was raised was in
15 relation to what I discussed yesterday which was borne
16 out of the issue of me being part-time and managing some
17 of the --
18 MR HERBERT: That was the beginning of July?
19 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
20 MR HERBERT: A number of questions were put to you in
21 relation to the possible confusion between information
22 from the Central Middlesex Hospital and the North
23 Middlesex Hospital. The vast majority of the
24 information from the North Middlesex did you ever see?
25 MS BAPTISTE: No.
7
1 MR HERBERT: Those are all the questions I have Chairman.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Herbert.
3 MISS LAWSON: I wonder before Mr Herbert finishes if I could
4 make one point. I appreciate that this witness's
5 evidence is that the concerns raised in the Prince
6 report were not matters that were mentioned to her at
7 the time but Mr Herbert put to her could she think of
8 any reason why the Prince report was not discussed with
9 her at the time. He may or may not be aware that the
10 Prince report was not available to Haringey until 2001,
11 long after Ms Baptiste had left the department and
12 I think that is a matter which ought to be made publicly
13 clear.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Miss Lawson I am grateful to you of
15 course. It is a matter you appreciate that I was aware
16 of.
17 MISS LAWSON: Certainly, but others are not.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Herbert are you content with the point
19 that has been made?
20 MR HERBERT: Yes, save to say that obviously some of the
21 work must have been done at the material time when
22 Ms Baptiste was still with Haringey so it does not need
23 a report to be produced for information to be given.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed Mr Herbert.
25 Ms Baptiste I want to ask you a few questions if
8
1 I may, please. You were in the post of Team Manager for
2 a number of years. Could you tell the Inquiry, could
3 you help the Inquiry understand what in a nutshell, in
4 simple everyday language, is the or are the
5 responsibilities of a team manager?
6 MS BAPTISTE: I am sorry, I have to -- just hearing that bit
7 of information about this report not being available.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Take your time.
9 MS BAPTISTE: I think it is so disgusting because everybody
10 has a responsibility. I am sorry.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Not at all. You can tell me what you think
12 about that and other things. Say what you want to say
13 when you are able to do it.
14 MS BAPTISTE: I suppose this is the stuff that I was talking
15 about yesterday, that I suppose you cannot make changes
16 if you are not aware of what you need to change and in
17 relation to this report I am upset, not about the
18 content but I am upset because I really did not know
19 what was going on and I recollect at the time that I had
20 a series of conversations with Mr Prince about the
21 equity issue, but putting that aside, I mean just
22 reading, some of the issues of concern appal me and
23 I feel quite saddened that this report has only been
24 available in 2001, made available, when it would have
25 been more significant at the time to make the changes.
9
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, tell me what appals you.
2 MS BAPTISTE: Firstly I am seeing the report for the first
3 time and having knowledge of it. Secondly, that I feel
4 that with regards to my own practice I take the view
5 that I need feedback and support about that. I need --
6 somebody needs to manage my own competencies and I think
7 Alistair Prince's report, although I do not recollect us
8 meeting face to face, even though we did not meet face
9 to face and he probably worked on what he had, I still
10 feel that these issues should have been brought to my
11 attention, even though maybe his report was incomplete
12 at the time, I do not know, I was unclear of what
13 happened, but nevertheless I still feel that they must
14 have had some idea of some of the nature of the concerns
15 and I feel saddened that it was not brought to my
16 attention, because maybe something could have been done.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
18 MS BAPTISTE: So my reaction, it is just a reaction to
19 I suppose trying to figure things out and understand
20 myself what happened, why it happened. So it is just
21 a reaction to that really.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I think I am right -- tell me if I am right
23 in thinking that you were given the chance to meet
24 Mr Prince, were you not?
25 MS BAPTISTE: I was and I never refused to meet with him.
10
1 What I made clear was that the terms of reference that
2 he had I was unclear about and I remember putting some
3 of those concerns in writing to get some clarity because
4 all I was saying was at that time, "Look, your terms of
5 reference are inferring that there are some concerns
6 about my practice. Do you know what those concerns are?
7 Could you find out for me?" That is merely what I was
8 trying to ascertain at that point. It was not
9 a refusal, it was just that somehow I was feeling that
10 maybe they were -- they as in possibly Joe Heatley had
11 concerns that he had never brought to my attention, but
12 maybe he had spoken to somebody else about those
13 concerns and I felt I had a right to know about those
14 concerns which were in relation to me. That was my only
15 intention.
16 So when I -- my recollection was that when I had
17 spoken to Mr Prince he understood, he seemed to be
18 saying that he understood my point of view but that he
19 would speak to the director about being clear about what
20 he was going to be doing and I do not recall what
21 happened after that because my expectation was that
22 I would meet with him, and I cannot remember what
23 happened. I think I got something back in writing, but
24 I cannot be too sure, from the director trying to
25 clarify things, but I cannot clearly remember.
11
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Could I turn to my
2 questions now? Are you okay?
3 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: The question that I was asking you was could
5 you tell the Inquiry in simple straightforward terms, if
6 you would, please, what your understanding of the role
7 of the Team Manager, the responsibilities, the tasks of
8 a Team Manager are.
9 MS BAPTISTE: Okay. Supervision, team building, managing
10 Duty, participating in policy development. Do you want
11 me to talk about it in relation to my experience or
12 just~...?
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, let us do that but can I perhaps help?
14 Might I make some suggestions and see whether you agree
15 with me? First of all do you agree that in social
16 services departments there is a huge range of referrals
17 of all kinds?
18 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: And some are appropriate referrals and some
20 are inappropriate referrals?
21 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Some are really urgent and some are not so
23 urgent. Sometimes the material that comes in is rather
24 confused and unclear.
25 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
12
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Sometimes it is very clear but sometimes
2 there are huge gaps in the material that comes to social
3 services. Are you in agreement with me?
4 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Good. Would you agree with me then that one
6 of the main tasks of a team manager is to identify, be
7 clear about the nature of the referral, the gaps in the
8 information, the issues that need to be clarified and to
9 give directions to the social workers in the team about
10 the focus of the work?
11 MS BAPTISTE: Yes I do agree.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you agree that it is important to put some
13 time scales to that?
14 MS BAPTISTE: I agree.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: The danger is if it is not that things will
16 just drift on?
17 MS BAPTISTE: Yes, I agree.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you agree with me that in the three months
19 that you were the Team Manager that Victoria was
20 a responsibility of your team, that Victoria was only
21 seen four times and only twice that she was seen on her
22 own, and that on those occasions the conversation we
23 were told never got beyond "Hello, how are you today?"
24 Do you agree with that?
25 MS BAPTISTE: In relation to that case?
13
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
2 MS BAPTISTE: What I would say is that in relation to that
3 particular point about Lisa's competence in working with
4 children, that was something that we were trying to
5 address in her in the PDR. It was difficult to pinpoint
6 exactly what it was, which was one of the reasons why
7 I had undertaken some joint visits with her, and that is
8 something that you do anyway just to get a flavour of
9 how somebody works and how they perceive things.
10 Certainly sometimes it is difficult, I mean if you
11 do not know a social worker particularly well you are
12 asking probing questions to get a sense of how they see
13 things and analyse things, and I suppose with Lisa
14 I always found it very difficult to try to get her to
15 think about other ways of communicating with children,
16 despite us talking about getting her on appropriate
17 training.
18 I do not know how she felt about working with
19 children because she was never able to say to me what
20 she felt her hindrances were. However, in undertaking
21 some visits with her I was able to observe what she
22 could be like and I would say that in some cases it was
23 a case of her not, perhaps really not knowing, despite
24 us discussing the case beforehand and perhaps me saying,
25 "Are you clear how you are going to ask this? Do you
14
1 know why you are going to ask this?" and sometimes it is
2 a mixture of -- I got the impression, and it is not an
3 unusual thing, that sometimes it is about the daunting
4 experience of going into a situation where you might --
5 your mind might seize up. You know, you do the
6 preparatory work but somehow when you are in that
7 situation your mind siezes up anyway and that was the
8 impression that I sometimes got, but overall she was
9 confident and competent in other areas.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Right, but I am right in thinking, am I not,
11 and correct me if I am wrong, that you never made
12 a joint visit with Lisa in the case of Victoria?
13 MS BAPTISTE: No, I did not.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: You will understand that my interest is
15 solely about Victoria.
16 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I am trying to get clear about the part that
18 you played in this and do you agree with me that in
19 three months, that Victoria was only seen on her own
20 twice for no more than half an hour?
21 MS BAPTISTE: That is -- I understood that she did see her
22 twice.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I am just wanting to make sure -- in my
24 view she did see her twice but do you agree with that?
25 MS BAPTISTE: My understanding was that she saw her at the
15
1 hospital and she saw her at home, so that would be
2 twice.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes indeed. Do you also agree that in the
4 three months there was never a proper assessment made of
5 Victoria?
6 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: How do you explain that you as the Team
8 Manager never got a proper assessment done of Victoria's
9 needs or social circumstances?
10 MS BAPTISTE: I think I suppose there are different
11 components to it but initially if I look at my role, the
12 difficulties that I faced were really linked with the
13 relationship that I had with Lisa and the lingering
14 problem of what had occurred with the female social
15 worker that had made allegations. There were a lot of
16 team dynamics whereby Lisa -- in my opinion I think Lisa
17 felt quite pressurised.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. The question I really need to ask you
19 is this: did you make any impact at all, make any
20 difference to the way in which Victoria's case was
21 handled?
22 MS BAPTISTE: I allocated the case.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
24 MS BAPTISTE: Because it was -- I suppose it was apparent at
25 that stage it could not be worked on Duty because it was
16
1 confusing.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
3 MS BAPTISTE: There was a direction on the file for Lisa to
4 come and speak to me about the strategy meeting
5 decisions, which she did, and I suppose on my part
6 I would say that it was hard to get an overview of what
7 was being fed back to me.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: There may be lots of reasons and I do not
9 want to go into all the reasons, I just really want to
10 know simply whether or not you think you made any
11 difference at all, beyond allocating the case, to the
12 way in which Victoria's case was handled.
13 MS BAPTISTE: I would say that given the circumstances I did
14 the best that I could.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I can take that as a no if you want me
16 to.
17 MS BAPTISTE: I am not sure when you say "difference", I am
18 not sure what that means or what you want me to say.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I only want to get an understanding of your
20 position and in particular the conclusion that I need to
21 reach as to whether or not you as the Team Manager made
22 any difference to the way in which the case of Victoria
23 was handled, and if the answer is no, please tell me.
24 If the answer is yes, then show me.
25 MS BAPTISTE: I think that is a very difficult one for me to
17
1 answer because I have tried to think about it and I have
2 looked at all the different ways that I suppose it could
3 have been managed and I think that the difference would
4 have been had we had the information at the initial
5 stages confirming that the injuries were non-accidental,
6 then we could have acted differently or I could have
7 acted differently.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: That is true and I think you and I agree what
9 the job of a team manager was.
10 Could I turn then to paragraph 79 of your statement
11 that I think you have in front of you under the file
12 I think. It is page 621. Are you with me?
13 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: If you go to the fourth line from the bottom
15 of that paragraph, it begins with the words "I regret".
16 Are you in the right place? It is the fourth line up
17 from the bottom of paragraph 79. It begins "I regret".
18 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: It reads:
20 "I regret that Victoria's voice was not heard ...",
21 okay?
22 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I am interested that you express that in that
24 way and acknowledge that Victoria's voice was not heard.
25 Was it not your job to make sure that Victoria's voice
18
1 was heard?
2 MS BAPTISTE: Yes, it was.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Because Victoria was your client?
4 MS BAPTISTE: That is right.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Why do you think Victoria's voice was not
6 heard?
7 MS BAPTISTE: I am not sure why.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay then, well leave that with me then if
9 you will. Just one other thing. You said yesterday
10 that you would look for some documents.
11 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you look and did you succeed?
13 MS BAPTISTE: I did look. I was not able to find the
14 relevant documents because I have moved several times
15 and I am aware that there is just lots of stuff that
16 I have but I was not able to find the relevant material
17 even though I attempted to look for it.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, I must look to Mr Garnham then.
19 MR GARNHAM: I do not suggest we do anything further about
20 that. There is one matter I am asked to raise, sir.
21 I am concerned that the witness may have been a little
22 misled by something you put to her and I want to in
23 fairness ensure that the position is correct.
24 You said to her that did she agree with you that in
25 three months Victoria was only seen on her own twice for
19
1 no more than half an hour. You will remember, but
2 I want to make sure the witness is aware of the fact
3 that Victoria was seen at the hospital on 6th August for
4 20 or 30 minutes according to Miss Arthurworrey, and
5 that was on Victoria's own in that her carers were not
6 present, and then on 16th August and 28th October at
7 home with others present and then on a fourth occasion
8 at the offices of Haringey at the beginning of November.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Garnham I said that she was seen on four
10 occasions and only twice she was seen on her own.
11 MR GARNHAM: I am sure it is my mistake but there was
12 a certain amount of misunderstanding in the ranks ahead
13 of you as well sir.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: It is tough being a Chairman. I am very
15 happy for you to correct it with the witness.
16 MR GARNHAM: Thank you sir. Does that accord with your
17 understanding, what I have just put, Ms Baptiste?
18 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
19 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Garnham.
21 MR GARNHAM: Sir, before Ms Baptiste is released there is
22 one other matter I want to raise. Sir, in the course of
23 your opening statement at the preliminary meeting on
24 31st May last year, you indicated that ordinarily oral
25 evidence in this Inquiry would be heard in public.
20
1 However, you went on to say, paragraph 17 of the
2 transcript, that you reserved to yourself "the right to
3 hear evidence in private in exceptional circumstances".
4 As you know, sir, our procedures provide for
5 interested parties to submit questions to us as Counsel
6 to the Inquiry for us to consider including in our
7 examination of witnesses. During the course of
8 yesterday's evidence I asked Ms Baptiste a number of
9 questions relating to the regularity of her attendance
10 at work at Haringey's offices and one of the reasons
11 Ms Baptiste advanced as to her non-attendance was
12 childcare difficulties.
13 Since the close of business yesterday it has been
14 suggested to me that I ought to go further and to press
15 Ms Baptiste to disclose the details of the difficulties
16 that caused her absence from work and in particular that
17 I should ask her more questions about the arrangements
18 that were made during the latter part of 1999 and into
19 year 2000 regarding her child. The issues that arise
20 are whether or not those questions would be relevant to
21 this Inquiry and if so how that evidence should be
22 adduced.
23 Sir, because these matters concern Ms Baptiste's
24 child and in order to protect Ms Baptiste's child and
25 not Ms Baptiste, it is my submission, sir, that you
21
1 should hear arguments on this matter in private, in
2 other words that the press and the public should be
3 asked to vacate the room whilst these matters concerning
4 Ms Baptiste's child are dealt with. I do not know
5 whether there is anyone here who wants to argue against
6 that course but that would be my submission.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Garnham. Does anybody want to
8 argue against that course? Well I am of course willing
9 to listen to the arguments. I would need to be
10 persuaded of course that they are relevant to our terms
11 of reference. If that is the case then I would ask
12 members of the public and the press to vacate the room
13 while these arguments are put to me. There is
14 accommodation at the back of the hall.
15 (10.45 am)
16 (PRIVATE SESSION)
17 (12.20 pm)
18 (PUBLIC SESSION RESUMED)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Garnham.
20 MR GARNHAM: Before I resume questioning of Ms Baptiste, can
21 I indicate for the benefit of the public and the press
22 the effect of the discussion we have had in private.
23 Sir, I think it would be fair to summarise it in
24 this way, that matters relating to Ms Baptiste's child
25 were discussed and it was decided that those were not
22
1 relevant to the issues in this Inquiry and do not need
2 to be pursued further. It was however decided that
3 arising out of those matters there were a number of
4 subjects which it would be right to explore with
5 Ms Baptiste. There was then a discussion as to whether
6 or not that should be done privately or in public and
7 you have ruled that it should be done in public, which
8 is why members of the public are now back to hear the
9 questions that are to be put.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Garnham, I am grateful to you
11 for handling it in that way.
12 MR GARNHAM: Ms Baptiste, it is right I think that you
13 received certain treatment for psychiatric problems
14 during the course of the year 2000, is that true?
15 MS BAPTISTE: That is correct.
16 MR GARNHAM: I am not going to ask you about those because
17 they are not relevant to the matters we have to consider
18 but I am interested in what led up to that. Were you
19 treated or did you have diagnosed any mental disorder
20 prior to January 2000?
21 MS BAPTISTE: No, not that I am aware of, no.
22 MR GARNHAM: So you had not been to a doctor about a mental
23 disorder before January 2000?
24 MS BAPTISTE: No.
25 MR GARNHAM: And nobody had diagnosed you as suffering from
23
1 any mental disorder before January 2000?
2 MS BAPTISTE: No.
3 MR GARNHAM: Had you ever had any treatment for any mental
4 condition prior to January 2000?
5 MS BAPTISTE: No.
6 MR GARNHAM: Had you ever reported to your employers,
7 Haringey, that you had any form of mental disorder prior
8 to January 2000?
9 MS BAPTISTE: No, I just reported stress matters.
10 MR GARNHAM: Tell us about that. What stress matters had
11 you reported?
12 MS BAPTISTE: The issues that I mentioned yesterday
13 regarding my absences.
14 MR GARNHAM: So nothing other than that did you report to
15 your employers, is that right?
16 MS BAPTISTE: Nothing other than that but they were --
17 I suppose it would be fair to say that there were
18 ongoing -- because they were ongoing issues they were
19 constantly referred to.
20 MR GARNHAM: Yes, but they are all of the same character as
21 those you described yesterday.
22 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
23 MR GARNHAM: Did you have any symptoms of mental disorder
24 prior to January 2000, in other words looking back on
25 that time now, were there any things happening to you
24
1 that you now think might be related to the mental
2 disorder you reported after January 2000? For example
3 did you suffer any memory losses?
4 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
5 MR GARNHAM: During the period August to December 1999?
6 MS BAPTISTE: Yes, that was an issue that I had discussed
7 with my manager, that.
8 MR GARNHAM: What was the nature of your memory failures in
9 the latter half of 1999?
10 MS BAPTISTE: I remember just not being able to
11 conceptualise things. I do not know much about the
12 memory as such but part of it, part of the memory is the
13 visual side and for whatever reason I remember that
14 I could not -- I was not able to visualise things.
15 I was not able to -- I remember that I found it very
16 difficult to do simple calculations and particularly
17 leading up to the restructuring where it was said that
18 there was going to be, for want of a better phrase,
19 a mathematical exercise, something that would involve
20 numbers, I was really struggling with numbers.
21 MR GARNHAM: And that was in which period, can you help us
22 with the dates?
23 MS BAPTISTE: It was around the summer period.
24 MR GARNHAM: Summer 1999?
25 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
25
1 MR GARNHAM: What did you do about that, did you report that
2 to your managers?
3 MS BAPTISTE: Yes, I spoke to David Duncan about it but it
4 was just an informal discussion to say I am just finding
5 it really difficult to remember things and to remember
6 how to do things.
7 MR GARNHAM: What was his response to that?
8 MS BAPTISTE: There was no specific response that
9 I remember. I mean, but with -- for example, with this
10 particular exercise he showed me some of the papers,
11 some sample exercises I think.
12 MR GARNHAM: He showed you some sample exercises in relation
13 to the restructuring you mean?
14 MS BAPTISTE: Yes in relation to what might be expected,
15 what might be expected of us or what might be expected.
16 MR GARNHAM: Were you able to follow them?
17 MS BAPTISTE: He had to -- I mean it is a little bit like
18 you asking me questions. I did not initially
19 understand, it took a while before I could process the
20 information and fully understand.
21 MR GARNHAM: Were you not concerned enough about this to go
22 to a doctor, to go to a GP?
23 MS BAPTISTE: Well I was going to my GP.
24 MR GARNHAM: But did you report this difficulty with memory
25 and difficulty with processing information?
26
1 MS BAPTISTE: No because I guess I thought at the time it
2 was just because of the additional pressures of what was
3 going on. I just thought it was because I was trying to
4 study for the restructuring because there were a lot of
5 policy documents that you had to read and get familiar
6 with and I thought it was part and parcel of that.
7 I did not think it was out of the ordinary so to speak.
8 MR GARNHAM: So it was not until after the incident
9 in January 2000 that you recognised that you had any
10 mental health difficulties. Is that right?
11 MS BAPTISTE: I cannot say that I had insight as such.
12 I mean, I think by that time I was relying on other
13 people who knew me quite intimately to define that,
14 define my wellness.
15 MR GARNHAM: The answer to my question is that I am correct,
16 is it, that there was nothing that led you to suspect
17 you might be suffering from any form of mental disorder
18 before January 2000?
19 MS BAPTISTE: That is correct.
20 MR GARNHAM: When I asked you questions yesterday relating
21 to your attendance at work, you said, and you had
22 explained in your statement, that there were a number of
23 reasons why on occasions you did not turn up at work and
24 we went through those. You also told me that there were
25 other reasons that were affecting either your attendance
27
1 on time in the mornings or your presence at all in the
2 office. When I pressed you on that you eventually said
3 that that related to medical matters. Do you remember
4 that?
5 MS BAPTISTE: Yes, I did.
6 MR GARNHAM: Was that a reference to mental health matters
7 or was that a reference to physical medical matters?
8 MS BAPTISTE: It was really I was trying to remember the
9 other issues and I could not remember, so it was
10 actually easier just to say medical matters.
11 MR GARNHAM: You see, the reason I ask is because --
12 MS BAPTISTE: It was not referring -- it was referring to
13 some other issues but I genuinely could not remember
14 what they were and because there was pressure for an
15 answer it was easier for me to say what I said
16 yesterday.
17 MR GARNHAM: Because on the face of it some might think that
18 what you have told us this morning, namely that you had
19 no symptoms of mental illness prior to January 2000, is
20 inconsistent with the answer you gave me yesterday, that
21 it was health matters that were causing your absence.
22 Now, can you help us with that?
23 MS BAPTISTE: There were health matters as I mentioned.
24 MR GARNHAM: That is the skin difficulty you had had?
25 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
28
1 MR GARNHAM: Anything else?
2 MS BAPTISTE: There were just personal -- other personal
3 matters like moving home, but nothing that I can
4 remember. I mean the main health matter was the issue
5 regarding my skin condition.
6 MR GARNHAM: But we are to take it, are we, that when you
7 answered my question yesterday that the other reasons
8 for your absences from work were health problems, that
9 was you responding under pressure to me and that that
10 was not an entirely accurate answer?
11 MS BAPTISTE: It was not entirely accurate. I knew there
12 were other things but I could not remember at that
13 moment in time.
14 MR GARNHAM: If it was not then health matters that caused
15 your lateness to work or your non-attendance at work,
16 can you please tell us what it was, what were the other
17 factors that meant you were not in the office when you
18 should have been?
19 MS BAPTISTE: They are related to all the issues that
20 I addressed yesterday, all those areas that I addressed
21 yesterday.
22 MR GARNHAM: We went through those yesterday and I think
23 they totalled an explanation for three weeks but your
24 irregular attendance at work went on for much longer
25 than three weeks and what I want to know is what the
29
1 reasons were for that irregular attendance, if it is not
2 health.
3 MS BAPTISTE: It was not exclusively -- there were social
4 issues and health issues but they were all related to
5 those general categories that I outlined.
6 MR GARNHAM: So are we to understand that contrary to what
7 you said yesterday, the particular issues relating to
8 child care, your skin condition, the death of
9 a relative, that they were not confined just to three
10 weeks but they went on affecting your attendance at work
11 throughout the period with which we are concerned?
12 MS BAPTISTE: Yes, they did.
13 MR GARNHAM: There is no other factor you say that affects
14 your attendance at work?
15 MS BAPTISTE: I think I mentioned that I moved several
16 times, or I cannot remember if I said.
17 MR GARNHAM: Move several times we add to the list of
18 reasons, do we?
19 MS BAPTISTE: Yes, those were a number of pressures or
20 personal pressures that had gone on for me.
21 MR GARNHAM: Anything else, any other?
22 MS BAPTISTE: I cannot think of anything else at this moment
23 in time but it was a culmination of all those things.
24 MR GARNHAM: We are to understand, are we, that the only
25 precursors to the mental health difficulties you
30
1 experienced in January were some difficulty with
2 processing information and some memory lapses which at
3 the time you did not recognise as being related to
4 mental health, nothing else?
5 MS BAPTISTE: Well, I just took it that it was stress due to
6 just having to try and do some reading for or
7 preparation for the interviews.
8 MR GARNHAM: The Chairman has ruled that the incident
9 in January 2000 is not relevant to our Inquiry and
10 therefore I am not going to ask you about that. But
11 I need if I may to understand this. That incident
12 appears to have arisen out of mental health difficulties
13 on the one hand and your involvement with the
14 Charismatic Church on the other. As regards the mental
15 health difficulties, is it your evidence to this Inquiry
16 that that, subject only to the points about memory
17 difficulties and information processing, that came
18 completely out of the blue, is that right?
19 MS BAPTISTE: My recollection was that I was no longer
20 a team manager, either from October, November, around
21 that time.
22 MR GARNHAM: That is right, so by January?
23 MS BAPTISTE: By January when I had become unwell I was no
24 longer a team manager.
25 MR GARNHAM: I am interested in the build-up to your
31
1 becoming unwell in January. Now, there must have been,
2 tell me if I am wrong, some build-up, it did not just
3 come out of the blue, is that right?
4 MS BAPTISTE: Yes, I mean I am saying in the context of what
5 I have mentioned in my witness statement and some of
6 which I have subsequently remembered as well as work
7 pressures probably resulted in my becoming unwell.
8 MR GARNHAM: Were there any symptoms of that unwellness in
9 the period with which we are concerned, in other words
10 in the period up to November, the end of November 1999,
11 was that manifesting itself in any way that you
12 recognised at the time?
13 MS BAPTISTE: I think that probably in hindsight, I mean,
14 looking at some of the evidence and information now I am
15 probably able to say that there was probably a lot of
16 forgetfulness, absentmindedness, not remembering things,
17 but not being aware that I was not remembering things.
18 Which was something that I had mentioned to my manager
19 but it was not something that was taken particularly
20 seriously.
21 MR GARNHAM: Either by you or by him?
22 MS BAPTISTE: No, because I suppose in one sense I was
23 saying it does not feel like the normal forgetfulness
24 that I would experience, but then the rationale would be
25 "you are just under pressure or stress" and you take it
32
1 as that really. So that is how it was perceived.
2 MR GARNHAM: So it must be that these early signs of mental
3 ill health were affecting your competence as a team
4 manager during the period from July to November 1999.
5 MS BAPTISTE: It is difficult to say.
6 MR GARNHAM: If you were getting forgetful and you were not
7 remembering things, that must have affected how well you
8 did your job as a team manager.
9 MS BAPTISTE: It would have done but I could not say clearly
10 the onset of the forgetfulness. It was something more
11 apparent to me nearer restructuring and it became
12 apparent because I was conscious that I had just -- that
13 I just had difficulty in remembering things, and how it
14 was borne out was that I would be reading stuff and
15 maybe I would try to remember five minutes later or
16 something like that and I just could not remember, and
17 I thought that was quite unusual or strange for me.
18 MR GARNHAM: You told us that you told David Duncan about
19 that and that you did not visit any doctor about that,
20 that is correct?
21 MS BAPTISTE: Not about that specific issue.
22 MR GARNHAM: Did you tell anybody else except David Duncan
23 at Haringey about it?
24 MS BAPTISTE: No. I did not because as I said before,
25 I think it was seen in the context of just stress, that
33
1 it was a pressurising time and that everybody was
2 undergoing similar pressures.
3 MR GARNHAM: Did you make any written report about it?
4 MS BAPTISTE: No.
5 MR GARNHAM: As I said a moment ago, the incident in January
6 arose in part out of your mental health difficulties and
7 in part out of your involvement in the Charismatic
8 Church. Can I ask you, when did that involvement with
9 that church begin?
10 MS BAPTISTE: I do not remember.
11 MR GARNHAM: How long had you been attending the church
12 before January 2000? Weeks, months, years?
13 MS BAPTISTE: Probably about a year.
14 MR GARNHAM: What is the name of the church?
15 MS BAPTISTE: Rahema.
16 MR GARNHAM: Rahema?
17 MS BAPTISTE: That is correct.
18 MR GARNHAM: You had been attending that you think for about
19 a year, so during the period when you are dealing with
20 Victoria's case, is that right? That would make
21 it January 1999 to January 2000.
22 MS BAPTISTE: Was I attending during the time that I was
23 handling Victoria's case? I believe so, yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: How did that affect the way you did your work
25 with Haringey?
34
1 MS BAPTISTE: I do not really know.
2 MR GARNHAM: Was it your attendance at that church that led
3 you to mention your religious beliefs during the course
4 of your work?
5 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
6 MR GARNHAM: Is it not the case that you discussed your
7 religious beliefs in consequence of that during the
8 course of supervisions?
9 MS BAPTISTE: No.
10 MR GARNHAM: Did your attitude to the way you managed
11 children's cases change as a result of your attendance
12 at that church?
13 MS BAPTISTE: I do not really know how to answer that.
14 I would imagine there was some change.
15 MR GARNHAM: Can you help us with how that change showed
16 itself?
17 MS BAPTISTE: That is what I do not know. I think, I mean
18 other than declaring that I was -- that I had been
19 baptised, and talking about religion with for example
20 John Myrie in our social time, John Myrie is one of the
21 persons who you raised with me yesterday and we would
22 have a lot of discussion about religion, he shared his
23 views with me and I shared my views with him. I did not
24 think that I had as good an understanding as John had
25 had because he had indicated to -- well he basically
35
1 talked about his experiences and I talked about mine.
2 MR GARNHAM: I am wondering whether your attendance at that
3 church and the religious faith you developed in
4 consequence made you alter the way you approached
5 children in the course of your work with Haringey in the
6 sense of placing greater reliance on spiritual matters
7 rather than Haringey's childcare procedures.
8 MS BAPTISTE: Again I think that is a difficult one to
9 answer because I have no real understanding about my
10 mental state at that time and I think that that is the
11 nature of mental unwellness that, you know, it can be
12 hard to define unless you try and find the time to speak
13 about it. I think what I am trying to say is that, and
14 to give an example, when I was managing Miss B it was
15 not -- sorry, am I allowed to use this as an example?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
17 MS BAPTISTE: It was not initially apparent that there was
18 a medical condition in her case. What was apparent was
19 that there was underperformance and the initial reaction
20 was that this worker should be disciplined. However,
21 after some further evaluation of the situation it then
22 emerged that there were health concerns and that as
23 a result of those health concerns she was initially
24 dealt with through the sickness monitoring process.
25 MR GARNHAM: I am not sure how that answers my question
36
1 relating to whether religion affected the way you dealt
2 with children.
3 MS BAPTISTE: I am just going back to my statement which was
4 trying to give some understanding about some of the
5 pressures that I was experiencing at that time.
6 I believe that if there had been some fuller assessment
7 of what was going on for me, because clearly Dave Duncan
8 is saying that he had concerns, and I believe that had
9 he undertaken a fuller assessment then perhaps the
10 conclusion that he would have drawn would maybe have
11 shown some indicators around health.
12 MR GARNHAM: Do you think it is likely that the mental
13 problems that you displayed in the year 2000 were
14 developing in 1999 in a way that would have affected
15 your capacity to function as a social worker?
16 MS BAPTISTE: I think if the concerns around my practice
17 which have subsequently emerged had been taken
18 seriously, that possibly the issue around any health
19 matters may have come out of that.
20 MR GARNHAM: Do you think those issues relating to health
21 matters were affecting your capacity to function as
22 a social worker?
23 MS BAPTISTE: I can only say that it would have had an
24 impact.
25 MR GARNHAM: Last matter. I asked you about symptoms that
37
1 were displayed in 1999 and you have given your answer to
2 that and I have asked you about the way in which your
3 religious beliefs affected you during 1999. For either
4 of those causes was there any time when you were hearing
5 voices?
6 MS BAPTISTE: No.
7 MR GARNHAM: During 1999?
8 MS BAPTISTE: No.
9 MR GARNHAM: Was there any time when you were refusing food
10 during 1999?
11 MS BAPTISTE: No.
12 MR GARNHAM: Sir, thank you very much.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Garnham. Mr Herbert are there
14 any questions in relation to the evidence that we have
15 just heard?
16 MR HERBERT: Just one. It is correct that you have been
17 seen recently by a consultant psychiatrist and a report
18 has been prepared which is before the Inquiry. His view
19 of you, and I will just ask you to look very briefly at
20 one or two matters, is that you are most concerned at
21 the present with the stigma of any diagnosis of mental
22 illness -- that is his assessment -- and that you are
23 still showing signs of suffering from anxiety and
24 tearfulness although he did not consider you to be
25 clinically depressed. Do you accept that assessment?
38
1 MS BAPTISTE: Yes.
2 MR HERBERT: He says in the conclusion of his report:
3 "On the base of the information available to me at
4 present it is likely that Ms Baptiste was developing
5 a serious psychotic mental illness during 1999. It is
6 likely that this mental illness would have impaired
7 seriously her capacity function as a social worker team
8 leader. In particular I would expect that her capacity
9 for work would have been lower than before she developed
10 mental illness and that her capacity to take decisions
11 would have been impaired. Given later events, it is
12 reasonable to suppose that she would not have been aware
13 of the fact that she was becoming ill."
14 Do you accept that assessment by the consultant
15 psychiatrist?
16 MS BAPTISTE: I accept that if the symptoms were around that
17 it would have affected my capacity to carry out my
18 duties fully.
19 MR HERBERT: Thank you, those are all the questions I have.
20 MR GARNHAM: Before we leave this, just one matter arising
21 from the point Mr Herbert has put. He went to some
22 trouble to argue that the psychiatric report from which
23 he has just quoted should be treated confidentially and
24 I am a little troubled by his putting some bits in the
25 public domain and not the rest. Is it right,
39
1 Ms Baptiste, that in preparing that psychiatric report
2 on you your psychiatrist expressed the view that he was
3 hampered in preparing it by the fact that you had not
4 allowed him access to your medical records?
5 MS BAPTISTE: How is that relevant?
6 MR GARNHAM: Fortunately the way we work here is I ask the
7 questions and you answer them. Is that right, that you
8 did not allow your psychiatrist access to all your
9 medical records when he drew up this report?
10 MS BAPTISTE: We had discussed it.
11 MR GARNHAM: Did you allow the psychiatrist access to all
12 your medical records, "yes" or "no"?
13 MS BAPTISTE: No.
14 MR GARNHAM: As a result is it right that the conclusions he
15 expressed are said to be provisional because he did not
16 have access to your records?
17 MS BAPTISTE: Not at the time.
18 MR GARNHAM: So the answer to my question is yes?
19 MS BAPTISTE: I think in all fairness it was something that
20 or it is something that I am working through with the
21 legal firm.
22 MR GARNHAM: But it is right, is it not, that he said "all
23 my conclusions must be provisional" because of the fact
24 that you did not allow him access to your medical
25 records?
40
1 MS BAPTISTE: That is right at the time.
2 MR GARNHAM: Thank you very much sir.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
4 MR HERBERT: Sorry to come back on this. He does actually
5 refer to that though and it is fair that in a sense
6 a complete picture be had.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
8 MR HERBERT: You are aware that the report says:
9 "There was ample evidence of procrastination and
10 vacillation as a way of dealing with anxiety. The best
11 example is her attitude to disclosure of her medical
12 records."
13 Is it right the psychiatrist did comment on that as
14 part of your symptoms? Do you recall reading that in
15 the report?
16 MS BAPTISTE: Do you want me to answer that?
17 MR HERBERT: Do you recall reading that in your report?
18 MS BAPTISTE: Yes, I did.
19 MR HERBERT: Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Herbert. I just have one
21 question for Ms Baptiste. There is a particular reason
22 why we need to know the name of the church you went to
23 and the reason is that there were other churches being
24 mentioned already in evidence today. Could you repeat
25 the name of the church or spell it for us to make sure
41
1 that we understand properly.
2 MS BAPTISTE: The church is called Rahema Ministries.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that R-A?
4 MS BAPTISTE: R-A-H-E-M-A.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: That is very helpful.
6 MR GARNHAM: That concludes our evidence from Ms Baptiste.
7 Sir, given the time now is 12.50, it may be that you
8 will think it convenient to break now for lunch and we
9 will start with our next witness after lunch.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that makes very good sense. We will
11 resume, ladies and gentlemen, at 1.30. Ms Baptiste
12 thank you very much.
13 (12.50 pm)
14 (The short adjournment)
15 (1.30 pm)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Mr Mason.
17 MR MASON: May I start this afternoon with a brief
18 application that Mr Garnham knows about and other
19 interested parties. I spoke to Mr Herbert and
20 Mr Herbert knows I am making this application and told
21 me he was not going to stay for it. He was here
22 a couple of minutes ago.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you think we had better wait?
24 MR MASON: I think he should be here.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
42
1 MR MASON: If he can be persuaded.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I thought we had a reluctant witness, not
3 reluctant counsel.
4 MR MASON: I am sure it is just me sir (Pause).
5 MR GARNHAM: Sir, I am told by our witness manager that
6 Mr Herbert is not interested in hearing the application.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: There we are. Mr Mason I am interested.
8 MR MASON: Thank you sir. There was an issue this morning
9 as to whether the psychiatric report related to
10 Ms Baptiste should be put in evidence and whether it
11 should be made public. I played no part in that. I did
12 not think it was necessary. However, I would submit
13 given that Mr Herbert himself has put part of that
14 document into the public domain, it must follow as night
15 follows day that you cannot have half a document in the
16 public domain but not the other half, and therefore this
17 application is that this whole document should now form
18 part of the public evidence to the Inquiry.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Mason. Mr Garnham.
20 MR GARNHAM: Sir, I confess I find it extraordinary that
21 Mr Herbert has chosen not to attend to respond to this,
22 not only because it arises out of the decisions he took
23 this morning as to the way he would conduct
24 re-examination, but also because it has an obvious
25 effect on his client, but we have to deal with it as it
43
1 is.
2 Sir, plainly there is considerable force in what
3 Mr Mason says. You may recall that I expressed some
4 surprise immediately afterwards when Mr Herbert decided
5 that he would put in particular paragraphs of this
6 report as he thought suited him. I in consequence put
7 in some of the other matters. You have to balance sir
8 on the one hand the need to ensure that this Inquiry is
9 conducted in a way that is as open as possible and as
10 fair to the parties as possible, but also the interests
11 of the witnesses and their families.
12 It does occur to me that one possible option
13 available to you now is to direct in the light of
14 Mr Mason's submissions that the whole of the conclusion
15 of this medical report should now go in as open but to
16 decline Mr Mason's application with regard to the bulk
17 of it. It is right to say that so far Mr Herbert has
18 put in conclusion only. I have in response put in
19 another conclusion in an attempt to achieve balance and
20 I for myself can see no possible argument for not now
21 permitting all of the conclusion to go in.
22 I am just concerned that your duty towards others
23 affected by this may extend to some hesitancy about
24 putting the rest of the material in. I am looking
25 through it quickly as I speak to see what other
44
1 references there are to the family.
2 It is worth noting sir, and this supports Mr Mason's
3 submission, that at the top of page 6 Ms Baptiste
4 apparently with this doctor remains unwilling to reveal
5 many personal details including the name or date of
6 birth of her daughter.
7 Mr Sheldon in his ever helpful way points out
8 something that mitigates against the compromise
9 suggestion I was mooting with you, in that if you go to
10 page 6, in the second full paragraph in that page there
11 is an observation that my recollection suggests
12 Mr Herbert also put in, reference to ample evidence of
13 procrastination and vacillation was raised dealing with
14 anxiety, and that appears in the transcript at page 73,
15 so it appears that Mr Herbert has not only put in
16 evidence from the conclusion but also part of the
17 substance of the report.
18 I know others have looked at this as well and I for
19 myself cannot see any reference to her children. I have
20 more than my usual hesitancy in responding to this
21 application sir and I apologise for that. I am acutely
22 conscious of the fact that I have not yet read the whole
23 of this medical report and I am concerned that you may
24 do something now as a result of this application that
25 may cause unnecessary difficulties to those not directly
45
1 involved in this Inquiry. I wonder whether I might ask
2 your indulgence and ask you to put off deciding this
3 application until later this afternoon while I read the
4 whole of this report. I am sorry.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I hope you will be agreeable to that.
6 MR MASON: Absolutely and if Mr Herbert had not referred to
7 part of the body of the report I would have said that
8 Mr Garnham's submission was up to his usual high
9 standard.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: That is generous of you Mr Mason. I am
11 grateful to you. You all have the advantage on me in
12 that I appear to be the only person in the room who does
13 not have a copy of the said report. I am sure that
14 I will get one but I have just been quickly trying to
15 catch up on it.
16 I would be concerned on a number of points, not
17 least being, if I could just without reading it for
18 obvious reasons refer to you a comment made in
19 paragraph 8 of the conclusion about which I think that
20 we would need to give some thought, and no doubt there
21 are other sections of this report that we would need to
22 give some thought to.
23 Certainly I am surprised and I have to say
24 disappointed that Mr Herbert is not here to answer for
25 himself, and I go further and say that I was quite
46
1 surprised after I had said what I said about the content
2 of this report that it was referred to in the way that
3 it was referred to. I was surprised.
4 I think that the best thing to do, I do not want to
5 collude with that, I think I will gladly go along with
6 Mr Garnham's suggestion that it would be as well if we
7 all had an opportunity to re-read the document and
8 I think that maybe we could deal with it if we can
9 before end of business this afternoon.
10 MR GARNHAM: Sir I am now in the lucky position of being
11 able to say that Ms Gibson will take the next witness
12 which will give me a chance to read this.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Garnham. Ms Gibson.
14 MS GIBSON: Thank you sir, the next witness is
15 Andrew Travers.
16 MR ANDREW TRAVERS (sworn)
17 MS GIBSON: Mr Travers, if you would begin by giving your
18 full name and professional address.
19 MR TRAVERS: My name is Andrew Charles Travers, my
20 professional address is Alexandra House, 10 Station
21 Road, London N22.
22 MS GIBSON: You made one statement for the Inquiry found at
23 volume 3 page 75.401. You have a copy of that statement
24 in front of you. Can you confirm that the contents of
25 that statement are true and if you have any amendments
47
1 to that statement would you make them now.
2 MR TRAVERS: I can confirm that the statement is true.
3 MS GIBSON: And you have no amendments?
4 MR TRAVERS: I have no amendments to make.
5 MS GIBSON: Is it right that you were Head of Corporate
6 Finance from the 1st April 1997 at Haringey Council?
7 MR TRAVERS: That is true.
8 MS GIBSON: And within that post you were also the Deputy
9 Chief Financial Officer for the Council?
10 MR TRAVERS: That is correct.
11 MS GIBSON: And then from 1st April 2000 you were Acting
12 Director of Corporate Services?
13 MR TRAVERS: That is correct.
14 MS GIBSON: And remained Deputy CFO at that point?
15 MR TRAVERS: Correct.
16 MS GIBSON: And then from 1st April 2001 you became Director
17 of Finance at Haringey?
18 MR TRAVERS: That is also correct.
19 MS GIBSON: And in that post were Chief Financial Officer?
20 MR TRAVERS: That is right.
21 MS GIBSON: Could you briefly outline your responsibilities
22 when you were acting as Head of Corporate Finance in the
23 period we are concerned with during 1999?
24 MR TRAVERS: I was broadly in charge of the day-to-day
25 running of the financial function across the Council.
48
1 That meant I was particularly responsible for the detail
2 of the financial planning process within the Council and
3 in advising officers and members of the Council with
4 regard to that process.
5 MS GIBSON: And your role as Deputy Chief Financial Officer
6 would be what?
7 MR TRAVERS: The Chief Financial Officer has personal
8 responsibility overall for those finance functions and
9 my responsibilities were really to work closely to him
10 in delivering those responsibilities for him on
11 a day-to-day basis.
12 MS GIBSON: I want to ask you now about the standard
13 spending assessment. You say in your statement that the
14 primary purpose of this is to determine the distribution
15 of the revenue support grant.
16 MR TRAVERS: That is right.
17 MS GIBSON: But it is also correct, is it not, that SSA is
18 also a needs based formula?
19 MR TRAVERS: It is based on need but the needs are used to
20 determine relative need as between authorities for
21 distribution purposes rather than as a measure of
22 absolute need.
23 MS GIBSON: That is correct but there is a correlation
24 between the standard spending assessment and need so
25 that if an authority is spending substantially below the
49
1 standard spending assessment, questions do arise about
2 whether needs are being met.
3 MR TRAVERS: Those questions do arise but the purpose of the
4 SSA is to determine relative need so I think it would be
5 right to say that the formula might be argued to
6 demonstrate that one authority's need is greater than
7 another if one accepts the items contained within the
8 formula.
9 MS GIBSON: It is right, is it not, that in theory if you
10 set your Council Tax within a particular borough at the
11 national standard rate, you can afford to spend at SSA
12 across all of the relevant departments?
13 MR TRAVERS: You can afford to spend at SSA for the Council
14 as a whole. I do not think that statement says anything
15 about individual departmental allocations.
16 MS GIBSON: But that is the theory behind the formula, that
17 you set Council Tax at the national standard rate and
18 then in theory if you spend at SSA in each department
19 you will cover all of the relevant costs.
20 MR TRAVERS: No, what I would say is that if you set your
21 Council Tax at the standard rate then the Council as
22 a whole can spend at the level of the SSA. I think that
23 is the technically correct position under the formula
24 arrangements.
25 MS GIBSON: Does the Government often award excessive SSAs
50
1 in particular areas?
2 MR TRAVERS: I do not understand the question in terms of
3 excessive. I do not understand that.
4 MS GIBSON: Do you often find when you are setting the
5 budget across the authority that the SSA in particular
6 areas outstripped the budget needs of that particular
7 department?
8 MR TRAVERS: In general in my experience the detail of the
9 SSA is not much used to set individual areas of
10 expenditure within the budget process.
11 MS GIBSON: Can I ask you to have a look at a report found
12 at volume 45C page 285 in the bundle. That is
13 a document entitled "Root and Branch Review of Social
14 Services". It is a document that you prepared. Is that
15 correct?
16 MR TRAVERS: I believe that is correct.
17 MS GIBSON: If you turn to page 287, there is a sub-heading
18 there "Children's Services", and one of the points that
19 you make within that paragraph is that the budget for
20 the service is below SSA.
21 MR TRAVERS: That is correct.
22 MS GIBSON: Why mention that in this particular report if
23 this formula is of no relevance to spending within
24 Children's Services?
25 MR TRAVERS: I think what I said was that it is not been
|
