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Archived Transcript for 8 January 2002: Pages
1 to 50
1
1 Tuesday, 8th January 2002
2 (10.00 am)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning ladies and gentlemen,
4 Mr Garnham. Just a couple of things before we begin if
5 I may. I should explain that sadly because of a close
6 family bereavement Dr Adjaye, our consultant
7 paediatrician, is not with us. She will be away for
8 a few days, I am not sure when she will be able to be
9 back with us, but of course we will ensure that she has
10 access to the transcript of the evidence we will be
11 hearing.
12 Secondly, as it is a little time since we were last
13 together, may I take the opportunity to remind everyone
14 that mobile phones and pagers should be switched off.
15 I attach a lot of importance to that.
16 Thirdly, I should emphasise that lest there be any
17 misunderstanding, the evidence that we receive today
18 will be treated in the same way as all the other
19 evidence. I do not expect any interruptions of any
20 kind. If there is an interruption the person concerned
21 will be required to leave the room and if necessary
22 I will clear the whole of the room, the public section
23 that is. I hope that will not become necessary.
24 Mr Garnham.
25 MR GARNHAM: Can I begin with one procedural matter. You
2
1 recall shortly before Christmas Mr Mason made
2 a submission to the effect that our timetable allowed
3 insufficient time for the preparation of final
4 submissions, and I indicated that I would come back to
5 you with proposals for alternative dates. We would
6 suggest now that final submissions could be delayed
7 until the week beginning the 18th February without
8 causing the Inquiry significant delay, and the time
9 between the end of evidence and final submissions can be
10 properly utilised both to prepare final submissions and
11 to work on preparation for Phase II of the Inquiry, and
12 if that meets with your approval we will make the
13 necessary arrangements.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed. I took seriously
15 the point that was made and I am anxious that advocates
16 have proper time for preparation and the 18th February
17 seems to me to meet that point very well. I am grateful
18 to you.
19 MR GARNHAM: Thank you. I will call Marie-Therese Kouao,
20 please.
21 Sir, I have just been informed that Mrs Kouao's
22 advocate would like a word with me before Mrs Kouao is
23 brought into the room. I wonder whether you might
24 retire for a few minutes while that takes place.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. We will do that and
3
1 I will leave it to you to tell me when you are ready.
2 (A short break)
3 MR GARNHAM: I will try again. Marie-Therese Kouao, please.
4 INTERPRETER (sworn)
5 MRS KOUAO: I have come here today to speak the truth about
6 the death of this young girl, not about anything else.
7 I swear in front of God that I will speak the truth
8 about the death of this young girl. I will not in any
9 way discuss any other matters. Because up until now
10 I have not had the occasion, the opportunity to say
11 anything at all about this.
12 MRS MARIE-THERESE KOUAO (sworn)
13 MR GARNHAM: Mrs Kouao, please have a seat. Would you give
14 the Inquiry your full name please.
15 MRS KOUAO: K-O-U-A-O. Marie-Therese.
16 MR GARNHAM: Is it correct, I think it is, that you are
17 presently serving a life sentence in Durham Prison?
18 MRS KOUAO: Unfortunately, yes, and I should not be, I have
19 not done anything to be in prison. Contrary to what
20 everybody believes, I did not do what I have been
21 accused of doing. Nobody here is looking for the truth.
22 You are all asking me about my private life, how much
23 I earn, where I live, not about the death of this child.
24 THE INTERPRETER: I am afraid there were one or two things
25 there I did not ...
4
1 MR GARNHAM: Thank you for the attempt.
2 Mrs Kouao, you should understand that this Inquiry
3 is not concerned with your conviction.
4 MRS KOUAO: My barrister has already explained this to me
5 and it is a shame because this could be an opportunity
6 to speak about the offence rather than discuss my
7 private life.
8 MR GARNHAM: My concern, Mrs Kouao, is not with your private
9 life, it is instead with the circumstances in which
10 Victoria came to meet her death and in particular the
11 degree of involvement of you and Victoria with the local
12 authorities, health authorities and the police.
13 MRS KOUAO: That is just it, I am here to speak about -- I
14 am here to discuss about social services and about the
15 doctors, not my private life, where I work, how much
16 I have earned, when I came into the country. All that
17 is my private affair.
18 MR GARNHAM: Then we are very much at one, Mrs Kouao. The
19 only questions I have relevant to your private life are
20 those that go to the terms of reference of this Inquiry.
21 MRS KOUAO: Your questions, if they are questions concerning
22 my private life I will not reply. If they are not
23 I will reply.
24 MR GARNHAM: You should understand, Mrs Kouao, that you are
25 required to answer questions relevant --
5
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Having already indicated earlier on that
2 I wanted mobile phones and pagers switched off, unless
3 my hearing deceives me, we are being interrupted by such
4 a call and I would be very grateful if the person
5 concerned could actually do what I asked them to do.
6 Concentration on the evidence is essential. Thank you
7 very much.
8 MR GARNHAM: You are required to answer questions relevant
9 to the terms of reference and it is only those that
10 I shall ask you.
11 MRS KOUAO: If they are the questions that I have here, I do
12 not know how many pages of questions there are but there
13 is nothing there concerning the death of Victoria, and
14 they are things that are not concerned with her death,
15 and because of it I am considered to be a monster, I am
16 considered to be guilty and I am not guilty. And yet
17 each time people say to me we are not here to discuss
18 that today.
19 MR GARNHAM: Let us see how far we go as I ask you
20 questions. I want to try and take the matter
21 chronologically. I have only a few questions relating
22 to the circumstances in which Victoria came to leave the
23 Ivory Coast with you. But let me ask you this. Perhaps
24 you could tell us why you wanted to bring a child from
25 the Ivory Coast back to Europe.
6
1 MRS KOUAO: I have already replied to this question more
2 than once.
3 MR GARNHAM: Perhaps you would favour us with another repeat
4 of that reply, please.
5 MRS KOUAO: I have already replied to the question why
6 I brought this child with me, not necessarily why
7 I brought her to London but why I brought her with me.
8 MR GARNHAM: Tell us again, if you would.
9 THE INTERPRETER: I can only summarise.
10 MRS KOUAO: I am not here today to discuss why I brought her
11 here, that is nothing do with her death. I am treated
12 as a monster, as guilty and this is most unfair.
13 MR GARNHAM: If you would perhaps --
14 MRS KOUAO: My English is not very good but it is not
15 because I took that little girl. She is dead. The
16 reason why she is dead is because of the doctors.
17 I came here to talk about the doctors and the social
18 workers, not about something else. All that question
19 I give the reply earlier, hundreds, several times, it is
20 not because I took her she is dead. It is not because
21 I came in London she is dead. It is not because of
22 I work or I do not work she is dead. Why she is dead we
23 have to enter in. If you cannot enter in so I am sorry,
24 I cannot say nothing because I am not here to help
25 myself. I am here to help people. My daughter she did
7
1 not help me, she is dead, now no one can help her, now
2 she is not going to wake up, but if I can help another
3 little girl and little boys to save their life I am all
4 right. That is why I came here, to try to help other
5 little girls and other little boys. But that --
6 MR GARNHAM: Mrs Kouao --
7 MRS KOUAO: Where I work, how much money I have is not going
8 to help any child. It is just my (Inaudible) in
9 Internet. And this, my (inaudible). I am a respectable
10 person. I never did wrong in my life. I never put my
11 feet in a police station before that case. When the
12 police went to France, to everywhere, for my background
13 they did not find nothing because I am a very right
14 person, I am a respect person. I am a lady. They put
15 me in prison for something I never did and all they talk
16 to me it is like an animal and they give me
17 a boyfriends. What kind of boyfriends? That man is not
18 my boyfriend, that man is my landlord. He came my
19 boyfriends, he make me love and respect and all that
20 destroy my life.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: You are actually here Mrs Kouao to help me
22 and the questions that are being put are being put in
23 order that you can help me conduct this Inquiry. You
24 may have answered some of these questions elsewhere but
25 not to me and I do not know what the answers are. There
8
1 will be plenty of opportunity I am sure for you to
2 explain your contact with social workers and doctors.
3 It would help if you would answer Mr Garnham's questions
4 and then we will proceed.
5 MRS KOUAO: Thank you very much. I want to start to talk
6 about the social worker and the doctors, not about the
7 question how if she was going to school. Now she is
8 dead. If she was going to school or not, what are we
9 going to do with this? Nothing. The police know she
10 was -- everything is in their hands. They said I never
11 put her in school, this is not truth. I put her in
12 school. I care her a lot.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I explain, it is not your responsibility
14 to conduct the Inquiry. It is not your task to set the
15 questions. Mr Garnham will ask the questions. It is
16 your task to answer the questions. I would be obliged
17 if you would actually listen to Mr Garnham's questions
18 carefully and answer them to the best of your ability
19 and if at the end of the day, end of your evidence there
20 is anything more you wish to say I assure you that
21 I will give you the opportunity to say anything else you
22 want.
23 MRS KOUAO: This is what the judge, the Lord Laming, when
24 I want to talk what happened in her life about her
25 marks, about everything, they said no, you should answer
9
1 the question and after we will give you a chance to
2 talk, but when I finished to answer the question they
3 just guilty me to murder, never give me a chance to
4 explain anything. I have already heard this. It is the
5 same thing all the time.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me --
7 MRS KOUAO: When can I get chance to explain to people I am
8 innocent then.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me make an agreement with you. You do
10 not know me. What I am saying to you, if you answer the
11 questions to the best of your ability then I assure you
12 I will give you the opportunity at the end to tell me
13 anything else you want to tell me. So let us accept it.
14 MRS KOUAO: I am sorry, I want to talk about the doctor.
15 I am not here to answer questions. I came here to talk
16 about the doctors and social worker. That is what I am
17 here for, not for anything else, so let us talk about
18 them please.
19 MR GARNHAM: All right, we will come back if we need to to
20 events before you arrived in this country. I will move
21 straightaway to talk about events here. Do you remember
22 the date on which you arrived in the UK?
23 MRS KOUAO: I do not want to reply to that question and
24 I will not change my mind. I have been accused of
25 a serious offence that I have not committed and instead
10
1 you are asking me stupid questions.
2 MR GARNHAM: The reason I am asking you these questions and
3 why I will persist in asking you these questions,
4 Mrs Kouao, is that we need to understand what
5 opportunity the local authorities and the health
6 authorities and the police had to intervene to help
7 Victoria.
8 MRS KOUAO: And they did not intervene and she is dead and
9 I am accused and condemned of her death. Everything
10 happening in her life was innocent. How can you put
11 a human being in a bag? You would not even put an
12 animal in a bag. I refuse to listen to this.
13 How can you put a woman in a rubbish bag? Even an
14 animal you cannot put in a rubbish bag. How can you put
15 a woman in a rubbish bag? I was loving that little
16 girl. She was my daughter in my heart. Why I have --
17 why I have to put her in the rubbish bag? Why I have to
18 put her in the bathroom? Which reason I have? What am
19 I going to get with her death? I want to talk about
20 this to clear up my name to show to people I am not what
21 they think I am and they are there to ask me when I came
22 in London, when I came London. Now, it has nothing to
23 do with her death I came in London.
24 MR GARNHAM: You might, Mrs Kouao --
25 MRS KOUAO: If she not die, then you can say she was very
11
1 bad on the bed, they make her have an injection and she
2 get epilepsy on the bed. The bed was making bump, bump,
3 bump. The doctor said she had got epilepsy. I said no
4 she not get any epilepsy. They said you are not the
5 natural mother, we are going to find her natural mum.
6 If the natural mum said -- my English is no good but
7 they said she got epilepsy. She did not get it. It is
8 the medication and the medication, she has died two
9 times. They did not mention nowhere she is dead she is
10 dead two times, why? She is dead one time, wake up and
11 die again. It means she was fighting to be alive but
12 the medication was too high for her small heart and
13 people are there to put everything on me to make me
14 become a monster.
15 I am a very good mum. I am a mum and I am
16 a grandma. I have children and grandchildren. I know
17 how to love children. I know how to care for children.
18 I have proof I was loving that small girl. Why they put
19 her burns pictures in the newspaper? I have nothing to
20 do with the burns. Why the burns pictures are in the
21 newspaper? I am the one bearing her. So now the people
22 when they look at the newspaper they say look what she
23 did to the little girl. Who said I am the one did it?
24 I have nothing to do with the burns. So why the burns
25 picture is in the newspaper then? Do I get inaudible
12
1 for nothing?
2 MR GARNHAM: Wait a moment please. Let me make the position
3 crystal clear to you. Lord Laming is empowered by
4 Parliament to require you to answer my questions. There
5 is no possible justification for your not doing so.
6 MRS KOUAO: Yes, there is a justification for me to refuse.
7 You are telling me that if I do not answer these
8 questions you will add another six months to my prison
9 sentence. So how can that possibly affect me? I am
10 already doing a life sentence. What do I care about
11 that?
12 The problem is I have not to be in prison. I am
13 a pure innocent person in prison. No one wants to know
14 the truth. Everybody do this, do this and they say she
15 is horrible. I am not horrible. God is witness about
16 this. That is why I stop to believe in God. I say he
17 knows everything. He did not do nothing to me, he just
18 left me in people's house to do what they want with me.
19 MR GARNHAM: It is just possible that at some distant time
20 in the future some future Home Secretary may be asked to
21 consider releasing you from prison.
22 MRS KOUAO: I do not want anybody's pity to get out of
23 prison. I just want the truth that I am innocent.
24 I have never done those things of which I have been
25 accused. I know nothing to do with her burns. When
13
1 I saw her pictures I felt I thought to myself this is
2 not my little girl's body. They change everything.
3 When she enter hospital the back of her thighs were not
4 damaged in the way that they were at home, only in the
5 hospital I saw that.
6 MR GARNHAM: If you allow me --
7 MRS KOUAO: When we went to the hospital her body was not
8 like that. After, her plenty marks. Why the marks
9 come? I know she got marks but it is too much. So
10 I said it is the wrong body, this is not my little
11 girl's body. They said it is your little girl. I said
12 this is not true because her marks were not like that.
13 MR GARNHAM: If you will allow me to put to you these
14 questions then we can take your evidence and your
15 explanations to each of these points as they become
16 relevant. And I can assure you that I want to ask you
17 about each of the matters that you have raised. So if
18 you would do me the courtesy of letting me work through
19 these questions you will have the chance to give the
20 evidence you wish.
21 MRS KOUAO: The courtesy -- you speak of courtesy when you
22 condemn someone to prison for something they have not
23 done.
24 MR GARNHAM: Let us explore how far we get with this.
25 MRS KOUAO: If tomorrow they send you for something you
14
1 never did and destroy your name for nothing and put
2 wrong pictures in the newspaper to manipulate people,
3 can you be calm? No, I am not calm because they put me
4 away. I have not to be.
5 MR GARNHAM: One of the reasons that I am asking you these
6 questions is because sitting over there is Francis and
7 Bertha Climbie. They are the mother and father of
8 Victoria. They have travelled to this country from the
9 Ivory Coast and stayed here for some months in order to
10 try and understand how it was that their little girl
11 came to suffer and die in the way she did.
12 MRS KOUAO: I am not sure they are here to try to understand
13 how their little girl was suffering. This is what you
14 made, to everyone and to them. They are not me. I am
15 a very respect person and they were respecting me before
16 and their little girl was not like you make people
17 think. I know they are here. I know the police went to
18 Africa paid their plane ticket to come here several
19 times.
20 When they are asking me if she is my daughter I say
21 yes because I make adoption so she came like my
22 daughter. When you make adoption to someone, you cannot
23 say again she is not my daughter. I just make adoption.
24 She is my daughter, it is like I won her with my heart.
25 That is why I talk to the police she is my daughter.
15
1 MR GARNHAM: At the very least, the very least that you owe
2 them and that we owe them --
3 MRS KOUAO: And the police went to Africa to find her
4 natural parents. Now then --
5 MR GARNHAM: -- is explore these matters with you --
6 MRS KOUAO: The police know they are the natural parents.
7 It is not necessarily to pay their ticket to make them
8 go, pay their ticket. There are a lot of English
9 children here need money to save their life and you
10 spoil that money to pay their ticket to go to Africa to
11 come and stay in expensive hotel, all this to show to
12 people they are the natural parents. Why? They did not
13 love their little girl like me. Now it has come like
14 that, everybody abuse the situation, but how I was
15 loving that little girl, I was loving her more than her
16 parents.
17 If I told you what the parents did to her now you
18 are going to be surprised. When they came, her mum said
19 she have not any marks when she came from Africa. She
20 lied. She got marks when I first came from Africa to
21 here. People saw her, know she came with marks. Why is
22 she saying she has not any marks? African children have
23 marks. Why? Because their life is different. I bore
24 all my children in Paris, France. Paris is a big town
25 like London, it is Europe, but Africa is something else.
16
1 The children play out. They hurt themselves. It is not
2 the same life. So the white people witness, they see
3 one, their children are like that, so it is like that,
4 they say why she was not, she was slim --
5 MR GARNHAM: You tell us then --
6 MRS KOUAO: Inaudible.
7 MR GARNHAM: You tell us Mrs Kouao, what sort of physical
8 condition Victoria was in when you got to France with
9 her.
10 MRS KOUAO: You put me into prison without any proof and you
11 are starting to lie again. Why should I assist you?
12 MR GARNHAM: You should assist us Mrs Kouao for two reasons.
13 One, because you are required to as a result of an act
14 of Parliament. And secondly because you, like the rest
15 of us, owe it to Mr and Mrs Climbie.
16 MRS KOUAO: Mr and Mrs Climbie are my family. If I explain
17 the thing to them it will be in family, it will not be
18 in front of --
19 This is not fair, if I have something to say to my
20 family I will tell them between us, not in front of
21 public. They are my family. You said yourself, family.
22 MR GARNHAM: Mrs Kouao you are going to be asked these
23 questions in public.
24 MRS KOUAO: They are not Mr and Mrs Climbie. You make it
25 nice for them and make mine bad to destroy my life,
17
1 disgrace me. They are not married, they are like boy
2 and girlfriend.
3 MR GARNHAM: If you allow my to put these questions.
4 MRS KOUAO: The woman's name is Mrs Climbie on her passport.
5 She is not Mrs Climbie. Mr Climbie is her boyfriend,
6 they live together. But you put her Mrs, you put her
7 everything fine and put me where I have not to be. Did
8 I do something wrong to you or to one English person?
9 The police are on me, everybody on me. I want to know
10 why. Did I do something wrong to someone here to
11 destroy my life? I am married but they say Miss. The
12 one that not married they say Mrs. Why?
13 MR GARNHAM: If you allow me to put these questions to you
14 you will be given a chance to give this evidence in
15 a sensible order as we work through it.
16 MRS KOUAO: I told you that I will not reply to these
17 questions. Why did I come to London, why did I come
18 here? The truth of the matter is that she was killed by
19 the doctors but are hiding this truth.
20 MR GARNHAM: If you allow us to work through the evidence
21 you can tell us what the truth is, can you not?
22 MRS KOUAO: You killed her and you accuse me of it.
23 MR GARNHAM: Let us see if we can discover the truth by
24 working through the history of this case.
25 MRS KOUAO: If I do what you said I did, can I eat, can
18
1 I sleep? I have peace in my heart because inside my
2 heart I know I never did any of what they said I did.
3 MR GARNHAM: Then I am not principally concerned with what
4 you did. I am concerned with what social services --
5 MRS KOUAO: I never did nothing. That is the problem. I am
6 here as a guilty who have to answer the question. Is
7 why I said I refuse to answer the question. I am not
8 guilty. I am not guilty and I am not going to be
9 guilty. You can keep me in the prison if you want but
10 I am innocent.
11 MR GARNHAM: We are not here to decide on your innocence.
12 MRS KOUAO: That is right. You are never there to discuss
13 the real problem. You are there to know how much they
14 pay me for my job. You are there to know how much money
15 I bring here. What does the money have to do with her
16 death?
17 MR GARNHAM: Let me tell you --
18 MRS KOUAO: Not with her death. In St Mary's hospital is
19 a very good doctor. I have respect for that doctor. It
20 is not that doctor kill my daughter. It is the lady
21 doctor in Somerset Hospital. She killed my daughter
22 before to give her to Dr Joseph, to give the bad time to
23 Dr Joseph. Dr Joseph tried. I make medicine myself.
24 I go find the school. I am not a stupid person.
25 Dr Joseph is a good doctor. The doctor who came here is
19
1 the lady doctor in Somerset Garden. She did a lot of
2 wrong things to my daughter.
3 MR GARNHAM: Tell us when that was.
4 MRS KOUAO: I am here to talk about the social worker.
5 Everybody against the social worker. Why for? The
6 social worker did a good job. They are a very respect
7 person. Lisa, she never did anything wrong. But people
8 now they are on her. They say why she did not do this.
9 I read the newspaper. One black lady was in the
10 newspaper. She said if Lisa helped the little girl, she
11 is alive. How she know Lisa did not help her? People
12 talk for talk. They do not know the truth, that Lisa
13 knows her job. If the English -- what I want to tell to
14 you is if the English people have something with the
15 social worker, they have not to use me. If you have
16 something for the social worker, go straight to accuse
17 them, not to use my case against someone innocent. The
18 social workers, they are innocent. Why against them and
19 they are in the newspaper I against them. I never
20 against them.
21 When I was on trial I said the social worker did
22 a good job. They said why they did not take the little
23 girl from me because they know I was not doing wrong to
24 her. When they came to me I was very close to her. She
25 was very good with me. I was very good with her. I did
20
1 not do wrong to her. If the social worker saw me do
2 wrong to her or if she think she was treated bad, do you
3 think that woman can leave me the little girl if she is
4 a monster? She knows the little girl in danger and
5 leaves her to me? She knows the little girl was not in
6 danger.
7 There is the truth. Why against the social worker
8 for? They have to leave the social worker alone. They
9 are very respect persons and the people you have to be
10 against you just leave them alone and the one -- you
11 have to be against the church people. If you want to
12 know from where came that case, it was the church
13 person. Write it, the church person, they are the ones
14 that that case and the doctor put on. The social worker
15 never did anything wrong.
16 MR GARNHAM: You are right --
17 MRS KOUAO: And something else, I am sorry --
18 MR GARNHAM: -- one of the matters we have to explore is
19 whether the criticism that has been made of
20 Lisa Arthurworrey is justified or not, and that is
21 something you can help us with.
22 MRS KOUAO: The social worker never did anything wrong. If
23 I am here I am here. I refused to come here. I said
24 I do not care if you give me hundred years more. I am
25 here for something I never did. I am very upset, but if
21
1 I came -- I said I have to come if I can help some
2 little boys or girls and the social workers as well. In
3 England a lot of social workers did not do their work
4 properly. This is their business. I have nothing to do
5 with this but do not lose the social worker who was
6 against me because that one they did their job very
7 properly. If you think they are bad was --
8 One thing very important, the pictures you saw are
9 trick pictures, they are fake. Why do you play this
10 dangerous game? If the social worker saw her body like
11 in the picture do you think she can still leave her to
12 me? Her body was not like that. Her body came like
13 that after her death. So you know where you have to go
14 now to find who is guilty about the death. I am not.
15 MR GARNHAM: Let me understand what you are saying with
16 regard to the burns. You saw in the newspapers, as we
17 saw here, photographs taken of Victoria at the North
18 Middlesex Hospital that showed her scalds. You tell us,
19 you have just told us that you did not pour hot water on
20 Victoria's head.
21 MRS KOUAO: Why would I pour hot water on her head? I am
22 not a monster.
23 MR GARNHAM: Let me understand --
24 MRS KOUAO: Why do you think I put water on that little girl
25 for? I am the one --
22
1 MR GARNHAM: Since that is what you tell us, let me
2 understand how that came about. I think it is right
3 that Victoria was in the bath when she suffered those
4 scalds, is that right? Is that right?
5 MRS KOUAO: You talk as if Victoria was alive. She was not
6 dead. She was alive. She talk to the social worker.
7 She talked to the police and I was not around. The
8 solicitor said all she said I told her to say. Every
9 time Victoria -- you do not know who is that little
10 girl, she was very clever and you cannot tell her to say
11 something if she do not want to say it and children
12 cannot keep secret. If you tell her to say, she is
13 going to say, "My mum said I should say that". She was
14 alone with the hospital people. I was not around. She
15 is there one month and something.
16 MR GARNHAM: She was a bright little girl.
17 MRS KOUAO: I have nothing to do with her burns. The social
18 worker knows, the police knows. So why they are putting
19 me in that case now and everybody meet her after her
20 burns, she was alive. She was alive, she was very fine.
21 You can see -- I never -- the pictures of the burns
22 I saw in the newspapers, I saw it in the papers but
23 I have not seen it at all in my life and I said what are
24 these pictures of these burns? Somebody is trying to do
25 something that is not right here to put this on my
23
1 shoulders.
2 MR GARNHAM: Do you say that --
3 MRS KOUAO: God is watching you, yes, everyone.
4 MR GARNHAM: Do you say that the burns we have seen in those
5 photographs were never visible on Victoria's face?
6 MRS KOUAO: No, I never saw those pictures. I never saw
7 them. The first time I saw the burns pictures it was in
8 the newspaper. I never in my life saw that. While she
9 was with me I was her mum so they have to show me
10 everything. They did not show me this and the nurse,
11 the doctors, everyone knows that picture is not the
12 truthful one. She was not like that.
13 MR GARNHAM: She was not like that?
14 MRS KOUAO: No.
15 MR GARNHAM: So the position is that the photographs have
16 been altered in some way?
17 MRS KOUAO: It is not even worth discussing that. No more
18 politeness, no more courtesy. I am going right to the
19 point now.
20 MR GARNHAM: Go on then, you tell us the point.
21 MRS KOUAO: These pictures were faked. That is all.
22 MR GARNHAM: So there were never burns on Victoria's head.
23 Is that right?
24 MRS KOUAO: Listen to me now, you hear me well. It is not
25 me that caused any burns. The doctors know this, the
24
1 social workers know this. Now, the solicitor has said
2 that it was me who told him to speak to the doctor. Why
3 do not you ask the doctor?
4 MR GARNHAM: We have asked the doctor a number of questions
5 and now I want to ask you.
6 MRS KOUAO: She was alone with the doctors in the hospital.
7 I was at home when the doctors, the police, everyone go
8 to talk to her. She knows to talk like a big person.
9 She was (inaudible) and going to tell but the people
10 they put in the newspaper the eight year old girl. Even
11 she was going to 10 years does not matter. 10 years is
12 still young, is still baby. If it is 16 it is still
13 baby. What I want to say is you have to put the things
14 right, not to change the things. Why they put eight
15 years? Her birth certificate is in the police hands and
16 they put in the newspaper eight years old. Even 10
17 years, 11, 16 years is still young I know, but what
18 I know I want to say is you have to put everything.
19 A cat is a cat. What you said in the papers is nothing
20 but lies. Why? Have I done something against all you
21 people?
22 MR GARNHAM: Sir, it occurs to me that it might be worth
23 taking a break at this stage. Mr Cross indicated to me
24 that if we ran into these sort of difficulties during
25 the course of the evidence that it might be sensible if
25
1 he had the opportunity to speak again with Mrs Kouao.
2 I wonder therefore whether you would consider adjourning
3 for 15 minutes. I am not asking for your opinion
4 Mrs Kouao.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs Kouao be quiet. Mr Garnham.
6 MR GARNHAM: I wonder therefore whether you might think it
7 prudent to adjourn for 15 minutes to give Mr Cross
8 another chance to speak to his client.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Cross you are very welcome. I think that
10 you fully understand the situation --
11 MR CROSS: I do.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: -- that we are conducting this Inquiry and
13 I attach a lot of importance to the evidence that your
14 client can give to this Inquiry, especially as she makes
15 points about the services that she sought, so I would be
16 obliged for your assistance and I will adjourn now until
17 5 past 11.
18 MR CROSS: I will do everything I can.
19 (10.50 am)
20 (A short break)
21 (11.10 am)
22 MR GARNHAM: I wonder if we could have Mrs Kouao back,
23 please. Please have a seat Mrs Kouao.
24 Mrs Kouao, let us see if we can approach this
25 a different way. You said when you began your evidence
26
1 that there were things you wanted to say to us and in
2 particular and firstly you wanted to say things about
3 how it was that Victoria came to die. So I will not ask
4 you questions for the moment. I will give you the
5 chance to tell us what you say it was that led to
6 Victoria's death.
7 MRS KOUAO: The events that led to the death of Victoria, no
8 one had foreseen Victoria's death. I could not even
9 have imagined it.
10 MR GARNHAM: Go on.
11 MRS KOUAO: Victoria, everybody says that I killed her. No,
12 they did not say I killed her, they said that my lover
13 killed her in front of me and because I did not prevent
14 that I killed her.
15 MR GARNHAM: What is the real position, do you say?
16 MRS KOUAO: The truth is that he is not my lover, he is the
17 proprietor of my lodgings, he is not my lover. I am not
18 the sort of woman that is available for everyone. These
19 things in the paper that they say about me, that is not
20 true. I was so occupied with Victoria I had no chance
21 to think about anything else.
22 MR GARNHAM: Tell us then, if you would, how you say
23 Victoria came to die. What caused her death?
24 MRS KOUAO: Nothing could be foreseen about Victoria's
25 death. She had problems and I struggled to help her.
27
1 That is not the mentality of someone who is going to
2 kill.
3 MR GARNHAM: Tell us about her problems.
4 MRS KOUAO: One day we went to the market, we had been
5 shopping and Victoria ran and jumped on the bus before
6 I could do anything and she left on the bus while I am
7 still standing there. I was completely crushed by this.
8 What am I going to do? The bus has left, so I had to
9 take a taxi. I said to the taxi driver, "Would you
10 please follow that bus because my daughter is on that
11 bus". She jumped on it. I would never have killed her.
12 I loved her, even if she did give me problems, I loved
13 her. If I was someone who wanted to kill her I would
14 have left her on the bus. Why would I run after her
15 with a taxi?
16 MR GARNHAM: Yes, I see.
17 MRS KOUAO: And the bus conductor put her down at the stop
18 and the taxi driver was angry. And he said, "Why did
19 the bus conductor leave a little girl all alone like
20 that at a bus stop?" Because there was no way the
21 driver of the bus could have guessed that the mother of
22 the child was following behind in a taxi. And I was so
23 happy to get my daughter back that I just took her and
24 got in a taxi and went home. Is that the sort of
25 behaviour of someone who intends to kill? They put it
28
1 in the newspaper that I did not give her anything to eat
2 and that led to her death. What sort of story, what
3 sort of a yarn is this?
4 MR GARNHAM: That is not true?
5 MRS KOUAO: No, that is not true at all. I am terribly
6 sorry, it is just not true. They said to me, "If it is
7 not true why is her stomach empty?" Everybody knows
8 that on Thursday -- Wednesday, Thursday and Friday
9 before her death she would not eat.
10 MR GARNHAM: That is why her stomach was empty?
11 MRS KOUAO: She did not eat nothing at home so I was very
12 afraid. I said why, because she is someone who loved to
13 eat. She does not know how to say nothing. If her
14 stomach is full, if you said, "Do you want this?" she
15 would say, "Yes mum". She loved to eat. So when she
16 stopped to eat it was something strange to me. So
17 I said -- I called the church people. I said she does
18 not want to eat. They said do not worry, it is the bad
19 spirit. It is the church people talking about bad
20 spirit to me. I do not know what is bad. I grow in
21 France. I get my wedding in France. I bore my children
22 in France. My skin is still black but my mind is not
23 like black people's minds. I do not know nothing about
24 bad spirit before to coming to London and hearing this
25 with the church people. They are putting me on the
29
1 wrong way.
2 I make medicine. I am not a stupid person. I go
3 far in the school. I am not a doctor but I know enough
4 for my family. Why I did not care, not care, but the
5 English, mind, I was not concerned because people said
6 to me, "Do not worry about it." Normally I have to go
7 quickly into hospital but the church people said no,
8 stay at home, it is the bad spirit doing this. I think
9 it is truth. If I did not believe them tomorrow I am
10 going to ask myself, "Did I do right for her?" That is
11 why I believed them. I do not know nothing about bad
12 spirit.
13 MR GARNHAM: So you did what the church suggested?
14 MRS KOUAO: Completely, totally.
15 MR GARNHAM: So we know that she was not eating for the few
16 days before her death?
17 MRS KOUAO: They said do not worry. I said I have to worry,
18 she is too young. The church people said I should do
19 a seven day fast to take the bad spirit on her off, so
20 I have not to eat seven days. But they did not ask me
21 to do not give your food to her, otherwise I refuse it,
22 she is too young. I do not know anything about bad
23 spirit but it does not mean I am stupid. There are some
24 things I know a child have to eat. So if they told me
25 do not give food to her seven days I just refuse it
30
1 because I am someone, I have my own character.
2 MR GARNHAM: So you continued to give her food?
3 MRS KOUAO: She was eating.
4 MR GARNHAM: She did not eat those last few days.
5 MRS KOUAO: She was eating because I went to the church
6 Friday and they said from that Friday to next Friday
7 I have not to eat. She was eating on the Wednesday
8 morning, she was not -- she was like an old woman like
9 that. And she was not like that before. And I called
10 the church people. They said do not worry. I said I am
11 worried. So I took her in a taxi to go to church.
12 I said I am coming with her, you can have a look
13 yourself.
14 MR GARNHAM: Did you go?
15 MRS KOUAO: I went with her and Mr Manning is my landlord.
16 He is not my boyfriend. People said, "He is not your
17 boyfriend, why go to church with him?" Why not? He was
18 not my enemy. He was not my boyfriend but very good
19 friend like family and he has nothing to do with my
20 daughter. He is not the one give food to my daughter.
21 He has nothing to do with her, but when I was going to
22 church he came with me and I said look, I put her in
23 front of everyone in the church.
24 The police did not care about this. They did not go
25 to ask the baddies why. She was there like now you are
31
1 here. She cannot stand up properly, she was like that.
2 I said, "Why she cannot stand up properly?" They said
3 it is the bad spirit make her body like that. So one
4 lady said -- I said I was surprised. One lady said, "My
5 own brother was like that but now they take the bad
6 spirit from him he come right again."
7 So when you hear this what are you going to do?
8 Just believe. They said wait Friday, I will see myself.
9 That Friday is the day she was dead. Now, when
10 Wednesday she did not want to eat I called them, called
11 them, called them. You can check this, this can be
12 verified. On the phone, I called the church person, the
13 madness person. Why? Because I was loving someone who
14 was not good and someone was sick. I loved that,
15 believe or do not believe I was loving her. With really
16 my heart.
17 MR GARNHAM: Is there anything else that you think
18 contributed to her death apart from the fact that she
19 was not eating?
20 MRS KOUAO: When I went to the church in the night time she
21 get worse because she did not eat and the church people
22 said I should go back home. She will be all right
23 Friday morning. I said, "No, I am sorry, I cannot go
24 back home like that. I am going to the hospital". And
25 I went to the hospital. I did not listen to the church
32
1 people. When we get the taxi Mr Manning said to the
2 taxi you are going home, he give the address. I said,
3 "No, sir, I am sorry, see me off the nearer hospital.
4 My daughter is not all right". And I said "quick,
5 quick" but the police said I do not mind. How the
6 police knows I do not mind? The police saw me before
7 her death. All that they said there is not truth.
8 I was loving her, I was trying to show her love and they
9 put her in the hospital because she did not eat all day
10 Wednesday, all day Thursday she did not eat. All day
11 Friday she did not eat and she died Friday.
12 MR GARNHAM: Is there anything else that you say caused her
13 death apart from the fact that she did not eat?
14 MRS KOUAO: After that how her stomach can have food.
15 People said why her stomach was empty it means she did
16 not eat. I am sorry to say it is stupid but it was
17 stupid. I was respecting him before but since he lied
18 I have not any respect for him any more. That man said
19 he did not give food to her, so the police said they
20 did, she did not give food to her, her stomach was
21 empty. This is stupid. Why not to give food to her?
22 She was my own family in London here and I was very
23 happy to get her even there is problem.
24 MR GARNHAM: You appeared to be saying earlier --
25 MRS KOUAO: Everybody has to know why her stomach was empty
33
1 because she did not eat three days so you cannot find
2 food in her stomach.
3 MR GARNHAM: You appeared to be saying earlier that you
4 thought that the doctors had contributed to her death.
5 Tell us about that.
6 MRS KOUAO: Not all the doctors. I said Dr Joseph, that one
7 is from St Mary's hospital, Dr Joseph is a very good
8 doctor and I have -- sorry if I do this, he is a very
9 good doctor and I have respect for that doctor. He
10 tried his best. The doctor made mistakes on my daughter
11 is the lady in Somerset Gardens. They make her
12 injection to make her get epilepsy. My son Sitar said
13 if they make the investigation and she did not burn with
14 the epilepsy it means you are innocent, you are not the
15 one who killed her. I never hear nothing about that any
16 more. Why?
17 MR GARNHAM: When did you see the doctor in Somerset
18 Gardens?
19 MRS KOUAO: From the hospital I tell the minicab and I say
20 go quick go quick. The minicab said I cannot go more
21 quick than this. If you want you can go to the
22 ambulance because there are ambulance cars not far from
23 here. I said let us go in. I want to go quick to the
24 hospital. Does someone want to kill do this? No.
25 I care her very well. Everybody have to know this.
34
1 When we are in the ambulance they check her and said
2 everything is fine, fine. The ambulance people told me,
3 I was crying, I crying, I said what happened to her?
4 And the ambulance people said her heart is it fine,
5 everything is fine. Then we went to St Mary's hospital.
6 It is there they put her on the bottle. They open here
7 to put a big thing for the wee wee. I make medicine.
8 I know what they are doing. I know. I understand what
9 they are doing there but there was no reason for this,
10 no reason to do this.
11 MR GARNHAM: So you said the doctors were wrong when at
12 St Mary's they connected her up to a catheter?
13 MRS KOUAO: I know what they were doing. I have seen, this
14 is the same in France but it was not necessary. They
15 can do this but she can make wee wee herself, that is
16 why I put her nappies. She was nine, going 10, but she
17 put nappies because of her problem and they said it is
18 the bad spirit make her make the wee wee. Herself told
19 me, "Mum, the bad spirit say I should make wee wee."
20 I said, "The bad spirit, can you see the bad spirit?"
21 She said yes.
22 All this was strange to me but the people said
23 Friday everything will finish. Now I am off to the
24 hospital. They put the injection to her. So she start
25 to do this (shakes). The bed was making noise. I say
35
1 what is that? So they are taking me out, they said if
2 I am not strong enough to look at this I should get out.
3 One young nurse, maybe she is the same age like my
4 children, because I am mum and grandma, she said,
5 "I have some questions to ask you. Did your daughter
6 play" -- she was there lying on the bed dying because
7 she had received an injection she should not have had
8 and then they say to me did she have epilepsy. She has
9 never had epilepsy. It is your medication that has
10 killed her.
11 MR GARNHAM: So you are telling us that the reason that her
12 stomach was empty was because she had refused food for
13 three days, that you tried to get her to hospital and
14 that the doctors wrongly catheterised her to empty her
15 bladder?
16 MRS KOUAO: She did not spend those three days at the house.
17 All day Wednesday she did not eat, then I was really
18 worried because she is someone, she used to eat plenty.
19 So this was like that. I said this is not normal.
20 I was worrying myself. I called every kind of church,
21 they all said do not worry, it is the bad spirit. Later
22 I said I cannot keep on like that, I need to go to show
23 her to them.
24 When I arrived at church the day I went to hospital
25 she was very tired but she dressed herself and I just
36
1 helped her to dress. She was not dying, she was very
2 tired but she dressed alone and Manning took her here
3 like that to take the taxi. When he arrived in the
4 church she was sitting down on the chair in front of
5 everyone.
6 MR GARNHAM: She was fine even when she got to hospital?
7 MRS KOUAO: She was not fine, I am sorry, she was very
8 tired, she was bad, bad. She was alive I mean and she
9 was very cold. When I touched her she was cold like ice
10 block, so this I talked to the social worker, I said she
11 was cold like ice block. It does not mean she was in
12 any bathroom or somewhere. People when they are not
13 well they can be cold. The circulation was not working
14 well. That was all.
15 MR GARNHAM: I see, so how was she before she stopped eating
16 those few days before her death?
17 MRS KOUAO: Two days, I mean Monday, Tuesday she was
18 dancing, she liked to dance and always she laughed at
19 me, she said, "Mum I have to teach you how to dance" and
20 I said, "Yes, later, later". So she was a very strong
21 small girl. She was never sick. She was not a girl who
22 was ill. She was a strong little girl. She was in good
23 health.
24 MR GARNHAM: Fit and well until she for some reason stopped
25 eating?
37
1 MRS KOUAO: Yes, until the time she stopped eating, yes.
2 She was in very good health. It was not the sort of
3 child -- she was not the sort of child that just got ill
4 easily.
5 MR GARNHAM: She had had some problems with incontinence.
6 MRS KOUAO: The problem she had was a problem with her skin
7 but people came to tell me that there was no problem in
8 fact with her skin. She scratch herself. I saw her
9 with my own eyes, she scratch herself. Even when she
10 was bleeding she is still scratching the bleed. One
11 morning I woke up, one finger was inside her body.
12 I take it like that and the blood, I know what I saw.
13 People said that she went to hospital for that, it is
14 scabies. Now they say she never got. How people know?
15 The people saw her when she was alive say she got
16 scabies. The doctors were very good doctors. I was
17 there with her for her scabies. They are against that
18 doctor, they discredit that doctor. Doctor was a very
19 good doctor. They disgrace them for nothing. The
20 doctor do wrong to Anna, they leave that doctor. It is
21 the lady in Somerset Gardens. They the one who make the
22 injection. It is not her body. She got marks on her
23 body. The marks come more in the pictures, I do not
24 know why but one thing is true, she got marks but it is
25 not because of the marks she is dead.
38
1 MR GARNHAM: When was it she was scratching herself, do you
2 remember when? Was it during the summer 1999 or was it
3 into the autumn?
4 MRS KOUAO: When we arrived here we were in a hotel that was
5 very, very clean. This has never been verified by the
6 police. When our finances began to run down I went to
7 see the social workers. I told them I am in a hotel but
8 my money start to finish so can you help me. They said
9 no I am European. I can stay here by my own pocket or
10 go back to France. I said I did not coming to back.
11 I came here for one reason and if I did not finish the
12 reason, why I am here for? I am not going back.
13 MR GARNHAM: Did the social workers provide you with
14 accommodation in Nicoll Road after that?
15 MRS KOUAO: They said where I am is too expensive for them
16 so I should move from there, so they put me in
17 Harlesden. People make their toilet on the stairs.
18 That was not a hotel, it was a hostel. It was the
19 refugees hostel. They take drunks, take the bottle and
20 break, they fight, break the head, you can see inside
21 the head, and I was crying when the police come. I said
22 it is not good for a mum to stay here with now she
23 looked -- am I that girl I was loving her, I do not want
24 anything bad with her.
25 MR GARNHAM: So you found the accommodation in Nicoll Road
39
1 pretty unsatisfactory?
2 MRS KOUAO: The social worker put me in that hostel in
3 Harlesden. They said if I need help they can pay
4 Harlesden for me but not where I am, it is too
5 expensive, so I moved there. They vomit in the toilet,
6 in the bathroom. I have to go and take my bath with
7 Anna in the neighbour opposite the hotel, I go there to
8 take a bath.
9 MR GARNHAM: Because conditions were unsatisfactory?
10 MRS KOUAO: It was not possible to stay in that hotel. It
11 was really, really horrible. Even an animal have not to
12 be there. They put me there with my daughter and she
13 get scabies, start to scratch herself. When she bleed
14 she is scratching the bleed. She was in the hospital.
15 The nurse and doctors saw her scratch herself, bleed.
16 People I hear they say she have no scabies. How people
17 know? She was alive when the doctor said she got
18 scabies. Now she is dead. The doctor came and said she
19 did not get scabies. How did the dead body -- it does
20 not work like when you are alive. Why they say she did
21 not get scabies?
22 MR GARNHAM: You tell us she got scabies --
23 MRS KOUAO: Yes.
24 MR GARNHAM: -- when she was in the Nicoll Road?
25 MRS KOUAO: Why did she scratch herself and bleed?
40
1 MR GARNHAM: She scratched herself and that left marks?
2 MRS KOUAO: I saw her and everyone saw her, even the doctor
3 came in to say, "I saw her scratch herself".
4 MR GARNHAM: During the time you were in Nicoll Road you
5 arranged for Victoria to be looked after by Mrs Cameron.
6 MRS KOUAO: Mrs Cameron, I went to find a job myself because
7 I am a very proud person. When I was in Tottenham they
8 give me a paper to go to social worker and take money.
9 I did not go. The social worker Lisa came back and
10 said, "You did not go to collect the money. I called
11 them, they said they did not see you". I said no,
12 I feel ashamed to beg money. I prefer to work, even if
13 it is not a lot of money I prefer to work and use my
14 small money. I am a very proud person.
15 MR GARNHAM: You got a job at Northwick Park Hospital?
16 MRS KOUAO: I have very surprised when they said they came
17 and asked for money for Victoria. What money? When
18 I got the job I went to the social worker to say I got
19 the job now. I saw them, all the papers.
20 MR GARNHAM: You got a job in Northwick Park Hospital?
21 MRS KOUAO: Yes and they said they are going to stop, they
22 said I cannot stay in the hotel any more because I was
23 there in the hostel because I did not work. Now because
24 I am working I should move to the hostel. I said but
25 I have no one in London. I have only my half sister.
41
1 She is behind me here. My dad moved her mum but she
2 came to say I am not her family.
3 MR GARNHAM: That is Esther Ackah?
4 MRS KOUAO: My half sister. My dad made two children with
5 her mum but she hate me because my daddy did not marry
6 her mum and married mine. This is family problem. I do
7 not want to put every family problem in front of people.
8 She came against me on lies, why? Why did she do this?
9 This is family. I feel pity for Esther.
10 MR GARNHAM: In order to enable you to go and do the job.
11 MRS KOUAO: She is in Bible school at Campaster? How can you
12 ask me to go to church now? I stopped to go to church.
13 I stopped to believe in God.
14 MR GARNHAM: You told us you were keen to get a job because
15 you are a proud woman.
16 MRS KOUAO: Yes, and I got a job and I found the child
17 minder to take my daughter.
18 MR GARNHAM: Mrs Cameron?
19 MRS KOUAO: Mrs Cameron. I found her myself. Why I did not
20 leave her in the house to go and work if I do not care
21 for her, if I do not love her? But I cannot leave her
22 even if she was nine years, I cannot leave her alone in
23 the house because I cannot work properly if I leave her
24 alone in the house. I am going to ask myself is Anna
25 all right? She jump. She can jump and the TV can fall
42
1 on her. I am going to ask, if I leave her alone I am
2 going mad because I was loving her and I care for her,
3 so I put her to the social worker to be --
4 MR GARNHAM: So you arrange for her to be cared for by
5 Mrs Cameron. You arrange for her to be cared for during
6 the day while you were at work by Mrs Cameron?
7 MRS KOUAO: Yes and I did this to have peace of mind.
8 MR GARNHAM: I understand.
9 MRS KOUAO: So why people say in the newspaper, why someone
10 who cares like that can put someone in rubbish bag,
11 there is no sense. Why I have to put her in the
12 bathroom?
13 MR GARNHAM: Mrs Cameron when she was caring for Victoria
14 one day noticed some marks on her body.
15 MRS KOUAO: Mrs Cameron the first day she meet Anna she meet
16 her with the marks. She meet her with the marks and
17 Anna was jumping with her marks. It was not something,
18 she did not get the marks after. When I put Anna in the
19 child minder she got marks. It was not something new.
20 She surprised me because when I was with her always she
21 talked to Anna, "Your mum loves you a lot. Because of
22 you she is going to work and all the money she is taking
23 to pay me to look after you". She come and talk a new
24 story. This open my mind about how people can be when
25 there is problem, everybody abuse the situation. I was
43
1 so surprised.
2 MR GARNHAM: Mrs Cameron's daughter on one occasion when you
3 had left Victoria with her was concerned about some
4 marks on Victoria's body and took her to hospital. Do
5 you remember that?
6 MRS KOUAO: No, I remember that but she did not do this
7 because of the marks. Anna went in the house with the
8 marks so there is nothing changed. Why they put Anna in
9 hospital, Anna stayed there months but when I moved from
10 the hostel, because they said they put me out, they said
11 because I am working I should take care of myself,
12 I said, "I just start work. Give me a chance to stay
13 here, the time to find my first pay". No, they just put
14 me out when I get a job. So Manning said I should come
15 in his house for Anna because I need to see her sleep
16 somewhere. I do not want her to sleep on the street.
17 I have not any family. I did not get chance to make
18 friends. I was so busy with Anna. So I went to
19 Mr Manning's house and from Mr Manning's house I came to
20 put Anna to the child minder and go to work.
21 MR GARNHAM: So you had already moved --
22 MRS KOUAO: One day Mr Manning --
23 MR GARNHAM: You had moved to Mr Manning's house by the time
24 you first started leaving Victoria with Mrs Cameron, is
25 that right?
44
1 MRS KOUAO: We moved from the hostel because they put me
2 out. I have no choice so I move to go to Mr Manning.
3 MR GARNHAM: You moved from the hostel in Nicoll Road to
4 Mr Manning's house in Somerset Gardens?
5 MRS KOUAO: Yes, and Anna went to his house with the marks
6 and he came here to say he is the one who made the
7 marks. I said he is mad or something. He is not the
8 one who made the marks. Why that man wake up to give
9 himself to the police and said, "I am a black Jamaican
10 man and my name is Carl Manning, I am the one did this,
11 do this, do this to the little girl in front of the mum,
12 she never said nothing". He made all the story, the
13 carry on, Mr Manning made the story, but I ask myself,
14 I said do not listen to what he is saying, it is not
15 truth. I do not know why he is lying for. I do not
16 know why that man said he did something he never did,
17 because when you -- when he meet her she got her marks.
18 Why she said he is the one who made the marks? He is
19 not.
20 When Mrs Cameron and her daughter meet Anna, Anna
21 got her marks already. She was with them months with
22 them but one day Mr Manning put me out. He said Anna
23 poo everywhere, the carpet was smelling, toilet. I am
24 not the boss of the house. If he put me out what can
25 I do?
45
1 MR GARNHAM: What did you do?
2 MRS KOUAO: I went to hotel.
3 MR GARNHAM: Where was that, do you remember?
4 MRS KOUAO: The receipt is with the police. I get tired,
5 two years in prison and I was asking myself, what am
6 I in prison for? When I ask, I question myself, I said,
7 "Did I do wrong to Anna?" I look for where I do wrong.
8 I was really loving her. I was really fighting for her.
9 So I am surprised to be to hear murder, murder.
10 MR GARNHAM: Was that hotel in Wembley?
11 MRS KOUAO: The hotel was not in Wembley. The hotel was
12 around Tottenham, a big garden, an expensive hotel.
13 MR GARNHAM: You went there because Carl Manning had put you
14 out of the house?
15 MRS KOUAO: Yes and after he called me on my mobile,
16 Manning, he said, "How are you?" I said, "I am very
17 fine thank you". He said, "I am sorry to put you out,
18 you are a very nice person. I have respect for you.
19 But it is because of your daughter. She poo everywhere.
20 I am fed up. So I put you out. Now you did not do
21 nothing wrong to me and you got punishment so I am
22 coming to bring you back home."
23 MR GARNHAM: Was that before or after Victoria had gone into
24 the Central Middlesex Hospital, do you remember?
25 MRS KOUAO: The date is on the receipt because I am someone
46
1 I use -- because of my job I keep everything, so all
2 this is with the police, they can make the difference,
3 look, everything. Now, Manning came to the hotel to
4 bring me back home. He apologised. I did not do
5 nothing wrong to the house, it is because of Anna.
6 I forgive him and I was in the house with him.
7 MR GARNHAM: So you returned, did you, with Victoria to
8 Manning's house?
9 MRS KOUAO: Yes, I returned there.
10 MR GARNHAM: After Victoria had spent a night in the Central
11 Middlesex Hospital?
12 MRS KOUAO: Yes. No, no, no, not after the hospital, after
13 the hotel. He was at home. He put me out. I do not
14 know where to go so I went to that hotel. It is a very
15 good hotel.
16 MR GARNHAM: How were things when you were back in Manning's
17 house?
18 MRS KOUAO: When I came back to the house things were all
19 right and one day or all night I did not sleep, I was
20 very, very sick, so morning I asked Manning, "Can you
21 stay at home with Anna? I am going to hospital because
22 I cannot carry her I am so bad". He said, "Today is my
23 day off so I can stay with her". I said, "Thank you".
24 I went to the hospital. The doctor wanted to admit
25 me Somerset Hospital. I said, "No, my little girl is
47
1 alone at home, my landlord stays with her today but
2 tomorrow is going to work. How is she going to manage
3 alone tomorrow? I mind that girl". People said I am
4 a bad mum. I am a very good mum. I want to put my name
5 right. The doctor said, "You have to sign you refuse to
6 be admitted because if you go home and something happen
7 to you you are your own responsibility". I signed the
8 paper to go home.
9 So when I arrived at home, when I am going to take
10 the cab I cannot walk properly so the driver is helping
11 me to enter. That driver is helping me to go to
12 Mr Manning. I hear that driver is my boyfriend. People
13 are mad or something. I am not like that at all, I am
14 sorry. What is all that boyfriend problem in the
15 newspaper, just to disgrace me? People do not know who
16 I am, that is right.
17 Now, when I arrive at home Manning was in his corner
18 and Anna was in her corner. She saw she me, she came
19 and hold me. She used to hold me always. Later when we
20 went to sleep she talked in my ear, she said, "Mum, your
21 landlord put his penis in my hands". I do not want to
22 listen because I was not very well. She said, "His
23 penis is dark and soft and he said 'press, press' and
24 after he come hide and milk come in my hands". I said,
25 "What?" Now I start to take it serious. I said, "How
48
1 a little girl can know milk came in her hands?"
2 MR GARNHAM: What do you do about that allegation?
3 MRS KOUAO: It was the night time so I said morning I am
4 going to --
5 MR GARNHAM: What did you do in the morning?
6 MRS KOUAO: -- to the social worker. So --
7 MR GARNHAM: Did you do that?
8 MRS KOUAO: I went to the social worker because this
9 happened and three times.
10 MR GARNHAM: This was on 1st November I think.
11 MRS KOUAO: I went to the social worker and now she talk to
12 the receptionist what happened. The receptionist is
13 there, she is witness but they did not call her to come
14 and talk. She said wanted what with the sex? How
15 Manning put his penis in her, she explain it in one way,
16 you have to believe it, guy force. So the social worker
17 get upset. They want to put it straight with that
18 matter and they call Manning. It was Wednesday. They
19 said they are coming, the police are coming to pick him,
20 I think Friday. I said why the police are -- why, he
21 will have time to run away if they tell him you are
22 coming to pick him up in two days.
23 Now I went back, I have to go home. The social
24 worker said, "No, because of what happened between your
25 daughter and your landlord you cannot". That is why
49
1 I said the social worker did a good job. They are not
2 bad social workers. If some social worker not good and
3 this is their business they have not to (inaudible) the
4 ones that are good. Lisa is a good social worker.
5 I refused to come here but I said I had to go and clear
6 her name. When she hear the sex abuse matter she was
7 the first person upset. She went to the police, did
8 everything and she said Anna is not allowed to be in
9 touch with Manning any more.
10 MR GARNHAM: As a result I think you went and lived with the
11 Kimbidimas.
12 MRS KOUAO: I said, "Where have I to go? I have not
13 anywhere. Can you give me accommodation?" They said
14 no, but this I cannot blame Lisa, she is not the one
15 give the accommodation. She has some people above. She
16 said, "Do you have a friend?" I said I did not have
17 chance to make any friend, I know only my neighbour,
18 a little far from my house but a friend, so I give her
19 a call. She said, "I cannot take you for a long time
20 because of your daughter, she poo everywhere, but
21 because you do not know what to do I can just take you
22 for one week." I said, "One week is not enough, it is
23 better to put everything clear now. If you give me one
24 month I can fight to get some room somewhere but one
25 week." She said, "All right, I will ask my husband, if
50
1 he came from the job".
2 MR GARNHAM: Mrs Kimbidima was willing to accommodate you
3 and Victoria for a month?
4 MRS KOUAO: Yes, she talked with her husband, it is all
5 right to take me in her house for one month. The social
6 worker said, "Are you sure you can accommodate them for
7 one month?" She said yes, and I think they called on
8 the phone. Lisa recorded what Mrs Kimbidimas said is
9 recorded. She agreed to take me in her house for one
10 month.
11 MR GARNHAM: So the social worker knew you could stay there
12 for one month, is that right?
13 MRS KOUAO: Yes, and the social worker said I should go
14 straight to put Anna in her house and come back home to
15 pack up my things.
16 MR GARNHAM: Did you do that?
17 MRS KOUAO: I have not to go home to pack the things because
18 of Carl, so I went from the social worker office, I went
19 straight to Mrs Kimbidimas's house. I leave Anna there
20 and I went to Mr Manning's house to pack up my things.
21 I was in the middle of my packing when they knock the
22 door. Mr Manning go and open the door. It was
23 Mr Kimbidima with Anna.
24 MR GARNHAM: So Mr Kimbidima brought Anna back to Manning's
25 house?
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