201



1 that. Now, there came a time when she described an

2 incident to you that she had actually seen with her own

3 eyes.

4 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

5 MS GIBSON: What is it that she described to you?

6 MR KIMBIDIMA: That is actually the third time, that is the

7 third time when she called me and say, "Okay, this time

8 I have seen it myself" -- two allegations first, there

9 are two cases. The third one she said, "This one Julien

10 you cannot deny it because I have seen it myself.

11 I went to the bathroom. Anna was there, Carl is there.

12 There is nothing you can deny", and I said "Fantastic,

13 you know what to do, you go to the police right now and

14 you tell them about this and they will investigate it".

15 MS GIBSON: At that point in time you believed what she was

16 telling you?

17 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, I was simply fed up. I did not believe

18 anything. I was just fed up.

19 MS GIBSON: Well this woman at this stage, who you had no

20 reason to doubt despite all the strange things she was

21 telling you, had told you that she had seen this

22 herself. It was not a question of the child telling you

23 this time, it was Marie-Therese.

24 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Because the first time actually the

25 child say it. The second time the child say it and

202



1 Marie-Therese says yes it is true, because of

2 this ... and then I explained to Marie-Therese that is

3 what she was thinking could not be right, it was not

4 possible. Then she said, "Okay, maybe. We ask the

5 girl". The girl said, "Yes, yes he did". Then she said

6 he did not. Then that day he apologised again,

7 I remember Carl was really, really, really upset.

8 I say, "Okay, you apologise. What do you do? You are

9 the head of the house, you have to decide". So he

10 forgive them as well.

11 So the third time Marie-Therese call me and say,

12 "Now I have seen myself. I have just seen them so there

13 is no way we can deny". I say, "If you have seen, go to

14 the police, go to social workers and do whatever you can

15 do".

16 MS GIBSON: Later on that day you came home and found

17 Victoria at your house, is that right?

18 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

19 MS GIBSON: After the incident that you have described?

20 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

21 MS GIBSON: Is it correct that when you got back from work

22 your wife told that you Social Services had contacted

23 her and she agreed that both Marie-Therese and Victoria

24 could stay at your house?

25 MR KIMBIDIMA: What it was, Marie-Therese spoke to me over

203



1 the phone and said, "Carl is abusing my daughter,

2 I cannot say here, I have to go, I have to leave. So is

3 it possible that I take my belongings to your place?"

4 I said okay, and I was on my way out, so I told my wife

5 what Marie-Therese will do and I think that my wife

6 misunderstood me. So when the social workers called my

7 wife, she said yes because she thought that I had said

8 yes, but I did not say yes to -- I mean, yes for housing

9 them. I said yes for keeping their belongings.

10 So when I came back I said, "There is no way they

11 will stay in my house" so I went out to look for a hotel

12 for that night because I said, "If I just keep Anna here

13 for one night then there is no reason not keeping her

14 for another night and then three nights or four nights",

15 I said "I have to find a hotel". When I could not find

16 it I came back home, I found Marie-Therese and she said,

17 "Do not worry, come here anyway, I will explain to you"

18 and we went there, went back home.

19 MS GIBSON: Social Services' records show that they

20 contacted your wife about Victoria staying on the

21 1st November, so would you accept that that would be the

22 right date for that event occurring, if that is what the

23 records show?

24 MR KIMBIDIMA: Sorry, I am very bad at dates. I know --

25 MS GIBSON: Would that seem about right from how you

204



1 remember, when it happened?

2 MR KIMBIDIMA: If I say that before Anna's death we did not

3 see each other for two or two and a half months, yes,

4 then it might be. Because that was towards the end of

5 our relationship.

6 MS GIBSON: Did you not contemplate the possibility that

7 Victoria might be at risk of abuse after being returned

8 back to Manning's house?

9 MR KIMBIDIMA: No. No, because the reason why she said or

10 she was making these allegations was she wanted Carl to

11 be jailed so that they will inherit the house because

12 her mum was looking for accommodation so that was a good

13 plan for them to get a house.

14 MS GIBSON: Is that a plan that you had suggested to her?

15 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, that is what she said to her mother, just

16 when they went out of the police station. Because they

17 went to the police and Anna said to the police that she

18 has been abused by Carl but after that, in the taxi or

19 on the way out -- on the way back she explained to her

20 mum that everything she had said to the police was not

21 true. She said that she had said that because she

22 wanted Carl in prison so that she will keep the house.

23 MS GIBSON: But this had come at a time when Marie-Therese

24 had said to you she had seen it all with her own eyes.

25 MR KIMBIDIMA: Exactly. This is what I said to

205



1 Marie-Therese: "I cannot understand what you said. You

2 saw it yourself, with your own eyes. So what are you

3 telling me now?" And there was no correct answer and

4 this was an another opportunity for my wife to say,

5 "Okay, I have been telling you we cannot trust this

6 woman."

7 MS GIBSON: So you could not trust this woman who had now

8 decided she was unreliable. Did that not put

9 a different view in your mind about what she might have

10 been doing to this little girl, given that she was

11 apparently capable of making up allegations of sexual

12 abuse? Did it not then worry you about the way she was

13 treating the child and what she was saying about the way

14 the child was behaving?

15 MR KIMBIDIMA: No.

16 MS GIBSON: You have now come around to your wife's point of

17 view a bit more. Did you not think that maybe she was

18 deranged like your wife thought?

19 MR KIMBIDIMA: I thought that she was maybe too many

20 problems in her mind.

21 MS GIBSON: And this person with too many problems in her

22 mind telling stories about sexual abuse was someone who

23 was looking after a little girl and you at that stage,

24 as far as you were aware, Social Services thought this

25 woman and child were staying safely at your place. In

206



1 fact that was not the case.

2 MR KIMBIDIMA: Mm-hmm.

3 MS GIBSON: So what were you going do about this problem

4 that had occurred for you?

5 MR KIMBIDIMA: Sorry, I am not sure -- I do not understand

6 very well.

7 MS GIBSON: What were you going to do to make sure Victoria

8 was all right?

9 MR KIMBIDIMA: What I was going to do?

10 MS GIBSON: Yes.

11 MR KIMBIDIMA: I did not have anything specific to do,

12 actually.

13 MS GIBSON: Well you had taken it upon yourself to take

14 Marie-Therese to church when you thought that the child

15 was possessed by demons. Now you change your view about

16 Marie-Therese; she seemed to be a rather unreliable

17 person who was capable of making up sexual abuse

18 allegations. So what were you going do to make sure the

19 child was all right?

20 MR KIMBIDIMA: Everything I did for Marie-Therese was she

21 asked me. When she said let us go to church, I took her

22 to church. When she said take me to your church, I took

23 her to my church. So the same thing. If she is -- she

24 did not ask me anything about -- after that she said

25 come back here with Anna because there is no more

207



1 danger, everything she just made it up and because she

2 was not clear. I took the girl there and that is it.

3 MS GIBSON: Forget about Marie-Therese for a minute. What

4 about Victoria? What about this poor little child who

5 was standing quietly in the corner at your house, whose

6 mother was describing the fact that she urinated all

7 over the place, who was dressed badly compared to

8 Marie-Therese? What were you going to do to look after

9 her interests?

10 MR KIMBIDIMA: What was I supposed to do?

11 MS GIBSON: You had already been to an office to check out

12 about education, so what about going to Social Services?

13 MR KIMBIDIMA: That is what she asked me to do and I did it

14 for her. Social Services, there was a social worker

15 already on that case, I remember she was Lisa or

16 something, calling Marie-Therese all the time, visiting

17 Marie-Therese all the time as well, so social workers

18 were already working on that case.

19 MS GIBSON: Well you were getting all this information from

20 the unreliable Marie-Therese. What about checking

21 things out for yourself, checking the little girl was

22 all right?

23 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, sorry, it did not occur to my mind.

24 MS GIBSON: Did you not think that you had some

25 responsibility to do that? You have already said that

208



1 you are a Christian chap who had helped Marie-Therese

2 out. What about your responsibilities to the child?

3 MR KIMBIDIMA: Good question but like I said, when a mother

4 asks you, cries for help, cries for help for her

5 daughter, you help her. When she does not, you do not

6 go and jump on and say, "Okay, I need to help her".

7 MS GIBSON: Do you remember that when Victoria left your

8 house to go back to Manning's house that evening after

9 the sexual abuse allegation, do you remember

10 Social Services calling up that evening to check that

11 she had arrived safely, and the fact that either you or

12 your wife told them that Victoria was there but

13 Marie-Therese was collecting her things?

14 MR KIMBIDIMA: Social workers calling us?

15 MS GIBSON: Yes.

16 MR KIMBIDIMA: No.

17 MS GIBSON: Is it possible that you have forgotten that?

18 MR KIMBIDIMA: No.

19 MS GIBSON: The social worker remembers being told that

20 Marie-Therese was out picking up her things from

21 Manning's place. She could not have known that unless

22 she had spoken to someone after Victoria and

23 Marie-Therese had arrived at your place.

24 MR KIMBIDIMA: What time could it be? I do not know. Did

25 I say what time they called us?

209



1 MS GIBSON: This was later on in the evening. After the

2 first call to your wife, when you had got home, there

3 was a second call to check that they were there.

4 MR KIMBIDIMA: Saying that I come back from work, I do not

5 know which date it was, finishing at 6 or 7, I get home

6 at 7 or 8 then, it depends on the day, and going out

7 straight away to find a hotel, coming back home it was

8 11. I could not find anything. It is at 11 that I took

9 Anna back to Carl's place. I do not know what time the

10 social workers call.

11 MS GIBSON: But it may have been in fact before you got back

12 from work that a call was made to your house to check

13 that they were both there.

14 MR KIMBIDIMA: I do not have --

15 MS GIBSON: Is it possible you may have forgotten about

16 that?

17 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, if that is the case it means they did not

18 speak to me because I was not at home.

19 MS GIBSON: Do you remember a call from Social Services on

20 the 15th December to check what had happened when in

21 fact a social worker was told that they were no longer

22 at your place and had gone back to Manning's?

23 MR KIMBIDIMA: 15th December?

24 MS GIBSON: Yes. There is a Social Services record of

25 a call to either you or your wife when that piece of

210



1 information was given. It was in fact correct because

2 they had gone back to Manning's.

3 MR KIMBIDIMA: I do not know. I am not aware of that.

4 MS GIBSON: You are not aware of that. Is it possible that

5 it may have happened?

6 MR KIMBIDIMA: I am not aware of that so I cannot say if

7 that happened or not. I do not think it had.

8 MS GIBSON: You later bumped into Marie-Therese and Victoria

9 at Wood Green tube station.

10 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

11 MS GIBSON: Just between that time and them leaving your

12 house on 1st November, what sort of contact did you have

13 with Marie-Therese or Victoria?

14 MR KIMBIDIMA: No contact at all.

15 MS GIBSON: So you bumped into them by chance?

16 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

17 MS GIBSON: At that stage you learned that Victoria was

18 being left at home on her own?

19 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. I think so because there was Carl and

20 Marie-Therese outside, so yes, I suppose she was.

21 MS GIBSON: We can look at what you learned at that stage.

22 It is at volume 46, page 135.136. I might have the

23 wrong reference. 515.

24 So you say there that when you met Carl and

25 Marie-Therese by chance, Anna was not there.

211



1 Marie-Therese said that she had been here in Britain for

2 Christmas. She told me that Anna was at home on her

3 own.

4 Then further down -- sorry, it is 46/135.515 going

5 over to 516. Do you have that now? It is right at the

6 bottom of 515 going over to 516. Firstly, when you met

7 her at the tube she said that Victoria was at home on

8 her own.

9 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

10 MS GIBSON: Then going down the page a little bit, when she

11 came to your house I think it was for your birthday, is

12 that right?

13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

14 MS GIBSON: "Marie-Therese said Anna was at home alone. She

15 added she did not take her anywhere any more because she

16 was so dirty and soiled. She told me that Anna was

17 doing all the bad things again."

18 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

19 MS GIBSON: Given what you have just told us that you knew

20 about Marie-Therese at that time, that piece of

21 information must have caused you to have been extremely

22 concerned. You no longer trusted this woman?

23 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

24 MS GIBSON: And not only that, she was leaving this child at

25 home, a nine-year old child at home because she was

212



1 soiling herself so much?

2 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

3 MS GIBSON: What did you do in response to that?

4 MR KIMBIDIMA: What did I do?

5 MS GIBSON: Yes.

6 MR KIMBIDIMA: I did not do much.

7 MS GIBSON: You did not do anything, did you, to protect the

8 child?

9 MR KIMBIDIMA: They came to my place and they stayed, I do

10 not know how long they stayed, and they say, "We are

11 coming back for supper" and they left and they never

12 came back. They called me to say that Carl was too cold

13 and they do not want to go out again. That was it.

14 MS GIBSON: Do you think, looking back with hindsight, that

15 Marie-Therese took you in and told you lots of lies?

16 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

17 MS GIBSON: Would you consider yourself to be a reasonable

18 judge of character? Would you say that you are

19 a reasonable judge of character?

20 MR KIMBIDIMA: I do not know. I would not be able to answer

21 that question.

22 MS GIBSON: Did it ever cross your mind that Marie-Therese

23 or Manning would be capable of torturing or killing

24 a child?

25 MR KIMBIDIMA: No. No, because -- no, not at all. And like

213



1 I said, I read in the papers actually what Carl was

2 confessing and I could not believe it. I could not

3 believe it.

4 MS GIBSON: But by that stage, and it seems that you are an

5 articulate and intelligent man from the way you have

6 given your evidence, you at least knew that there were

7 serious concerns about this child; that she was being

8 left at home on her own, soiling herself, and yet you

9 did nothing. Do you think that was an appropriate

10 response, looking back? Forget about hindsight, just

11 with the benefit of the knowledge you had at the time.

12 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, of course. Today I would respond very,

13 very differently to any case of child abuse. I know

14 more about it today. Much, much, much more, and

15 I learned and my wife went to take a child minding

16 course after this case and I remember I read all her

17 books, everything she brought home. I am pretty sure

18 that if she had been to that course beforehand this is

19 something we would have spotted without any problem.

20 But we did not.

21 MS GIBSON: Thank you Mr Kimbidima.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Ms Gibson.

23 Mr Kimbidima, I just want to ask you something that

24 is quite different from the gravity of the stuff we have

25 just been hearing. But just so that I get it clear. It

214



1 is on page 1 of your statement, right at the front of

2 your statement. You said that when you met Kouao and

3 she asked about housing, you said that you know how to

4 do it; after all, you said to Ms Gibson, it was not

5 difficult. All you did was you got a form, you

6 completed it and you sent it off to the Housing

7 Department. Right?

8 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. I mean I told her more than that.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: But if you looked at the bottom line of

10 page 1 of your statement, if I read it right you had to

11 actually make three applications?

12 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, this is what I said. I told her more

13 than that.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: So you explained that it could be

15 frustrating?

16 MR KIMBIDIMA: I mean I explained the way it was for me

17 because when I made my first application, my family was

18 here and then they went back to France. So when I went

19 to follow up my application they said, "But your family

20 has gone back to France so you have to wait until you go

21 back to England and you have to make another one". So

22 I went to make another one.

23 Then I went to follow up and they said, "You have

24 changed address at the time so you have to make another

25 one" and I was fed up that day because I said, "Why

215



1 three applications?" Then someone said, "Do not worry,

2 if they said do it, do it". And the boss -- I do not

3 know if it was the boss but the man I spoke to, it was

4 over the phone, he said, "Please do it and write my name

5 on the top of it".

6 So I think it was a security guy who said the man

7 you have just spoken to is not anybody. He is someone

8 in this office. So if he is saying write his name on

9 the top of the thing, it means he is going to follow up,

10 it means he is going to do something about it, so do not

11 go crazy. So I went home and made the third

12 application.

13 So what I told Marie-Therese was, "Make sure you

14 tell the truth and only the truth because if I was not

15 saying the truth on my application, after writing three

16 applications, something you will miss or you add". So

17 I say, "Please when you write it just be honest".

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. And that applies to this Inquiry and

19 that is why I raised it, in that you said something

20 different to Ms Gibson earlier on. I am actually not

21 concerned though about your housing application, I am

22 concerned about Victoria, so let us talk about Victoria.

23 Seeing a little girl wet herself is not of itself,

24 I would have thought, an indication that she was

25 possessed by evil spirits. So could you tell me what

216



1 other evidence you had, evidence that you saw that made

2 you reach that conclusion?

3 MR KIMBIDIMA: It was not a conclusion that we reached, we

4 just believed what the mother told us and the whole

5 story, like her mother died, no father, nobody wants her

6 back home, so I had to take her to help her to do

7 something for her.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: But if that story was true, it would have

9 been a story that showed that this little girl had

10 suffered a huge amount in her short life?

11 MR KIMBIDIMA: Oh yes.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, would not that have been a reason to

13 think that that might have been the cause of some of

14 this behaviour?

15 MR KIMBIDIMA: We did not think of that. We did not think

16 of that. Now yes we know that is the cause because when

17 you realise the way she behaved, like I have just been

18 asked -- the way she behaved when she was in our house

19 without her mother was different to the way she behaved

20 when the mother was there. Now we actually understand

21 everything where before we could not.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: But let us not judge it with the benefit of

23 hindsight. At the time, here was a little girl,

24 according to the story you had been told, who had had

25 a very unhappy early life. You are a father, an

217



1 experienced man. What I do not understand is what was

2 the evidence that led you to believe that this little

3 girl was possessed by evil spirits?

4 MR KIMBIDIMA: The evidence actually -- I will say we

5 believed these things before even seeing the girl. That

6 was -- I think that was our problem. So when we saw the

7 girl we did not go much searching if that was true,

8 because we believed so much before seeing her. So when

9 she came, or when we saw her, we say, "Okay, this is

10 it".

11 THE CHAIRMAN: So how many other little girls have you seen

12 possessed by evil spirits?

13 MR KIMBIDIMA: How many do I know?

14 THE CHAIRMAN: How many have you ever met that have been

15 possessed by evil spirits?

16 MR KIMBIDIMA: In Europe that is the first one.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: So poor Victoria was singled out for this

18 diagnosis?

19 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, I mean possession does exist and I do

20 believe in it. I know it is in western minds things do

21 not work the same way, but in my mind possession exists,

22 so when the mother tells me about it and she is crying

23 for help, I believe her.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: It could be that Victoria was crying for

25 help.

218



1 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: And all her cries for help fell on deaf ears.

3 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, unfortunately.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: In fact there was no way she could win

5 because whatever she said she was either not believed

6 and if she was believed it was because of her evil

7 spirits?

8 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. I think until we had changed our mind,

9 our view about her being possessed, everything that she

10 said before was falling into that category.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: A desperate situation for her.

12 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: There were not many adults in her life that

14 could have saved her. You were one.

15 MR KIMBIDIMA: I would say actually it is a pity that we

16 have not or I had not learned to listen to a child,

17 rather than through the parents.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: It is a pity. In fact you were hugely

19 sympathetic to Marie-Therese, were you not?

20 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: And in fact you showed no sympathy towards

22 Victoria?

23 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, I cannot say that, because I know that

24 someone who is possessed is not himself anymore. So,

25 yes, I did have sympathy for her.

219



1 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you now believe that Victoria was

2 possessed by evil spirits?

3 MR KIMBIDIMA: That is the shock I had, like I said when

4 I first spoke to Marie-Therese -- the sister, and asked

5 her about the possession and she said, "What

6 possession?" She did not know anything about it and

7 that day I mean we could not sleep because everything we

8 knew about Anna was a lie.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you still believe that she was possessed

10 by evil spirits?

11 MR KIMBIDIMA: Not at all. I believe her sister said, "If

12 someone is possessed it is my sister, not Anna".

13 THE CHAIRMAN: You must have thought she was a very clever

14 little girl to dream up this plot to trap Manning and to

15 be able to go through the whole of the system to ensure

16 that he was sent to prison so that they would get the

17 house?

18 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, and when you have this we also have the

19 mother's reaction which was, "Do you see now how this

20 little girl behaves? How can such a girl, an eight-year

21 old, think things like this? You see? It is not her

22 actually thinking, it is demons which are in her". So

23 I think, like I said, we did not have time to think

24 about what the girl was undergoing.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: An impossible situation if you did not think

220



1 it was the little girl doing this, it was these very

2 clever demons that were doing it.

3 Do you believe that you failed Victoria?

4 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I do.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr Kimbidima. Thank you Ms Gibson.

6 MS GIBSON: Thank you sir. I am afraid I have a few short

7 and sort of random questions because they are from other

8 parties but I think perhaps they should be put.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Indeed.

10 MS GIBSON: I hope I will not take more than five minutes or

11 so.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: That is not a problem Ms Gibson.

13 MS GIBSON: Could you look at volume 4, page 73, please. Is

14 that the education form you filled in as a result of the

15 education enquiry you have just described in your

16 evidence?

17 MR KIMBIDIMA: Sorry? The form I filled? This is not my

18 handwriting.

19 MS GIBSON: I see, it is filled in by Carl Manning but is

20 that part of the same enquiry that you were making

21 through the council about education? Did you see

22 Manning fill this form in?

23 MR KIMBIDIMA: No. No. To be honest I cannot remember

24 which form I filled ... I cannot remember.

25 MS GIBSON: Did you fill in a form that looked anything like

221



1 this at any time?

2 MR KIMBIDIMA: Sorry, I cannot say. I filled in so many

3 forms, I cannot say. It does not say anything to me.

4 MS GIBSON: You say you have filled in a number of forms.

5 Did you help Marie-Therese fill in any other forms?

6 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, apart from that one for Anna's school.

7 MS GIBSON: Can you confirm whether you have actually seen

8 this form before, or are you not sure?

9 MR KIMBIDIMA: I am not sure.

10 MS GIBSON: Turning now to what Marie-Therese said to you

11 about going to France. She told you I think on several

12 occasions that she was going to return to France.

13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

14 MS GIBSON: Did you get the impression she was going to go

15 to France for Christmas?

16 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, I remember because actually when

17 I met her in January I asked her if she spent Christmas

18 in France or in England. Yes, so I had my mind that she

19 would spend Christmas in France.

20 MS GIBSON: She also went back on an earlier occasion before

21 Christmas. Was that the time when she asked your wife

22 to look after Victoria?

23 MR KIMBIDIMA: I cannot remember.

24 MS GIBSON: Can you help with approximately how many times

25 you were aware that she went back to France?

222



1 MR KIMBIDIMA: Approximately I would say two or three times.

2 MS GIBSON: Did you ever get the impression that she would

3 be returning to France permanently?

4 MR KIMBIDIMA: That she will be leaving England to go back

5 to France to stay there?

6 MS GIBSON: Yes, to stay there.

7 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, actually now I am thinking because she

8 went back to France, I remember, saying that she was

9 going to sell a house and even asked me if I needed her

10 car that she had in France, she will give it to me for

11 free, and I said I have my own car so I do not need

12 a car. And I think someone who is selling his house in

13 France, everything, does not have any intention of

14 returning.

15 MS GIBSON: Did you tell anyone else, in particular

16 Social Services when they called in December -- I know

17 you said you do not remember that conversation but can

18 you remember telling anyone from Social Services that

19 Marie-Therese was going back to France?

20 MR KIMBIDIMA: I do not even remember speaking to any social

21 worker about Anna and Marie-Therese.

22 MS GIBSON: Finally, and you may not know the answer to

23 these two questions. Did your wife ever pass a child

24 minding course?

25 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.

223



1 MS GIBSON: Do you know what course that was that she took?

2 MR KIMBIDIMA: It was an introduction. Because actually my

3 wife used to look after children, she used to look after

4 children here, and I was speaking to someone in Safeway

5 on how to get more children -- I think like that, I do

6 not remember -- and the person asked me if my wife was

7 qualified and I said, "Oh no", and she said, "But she

8 should because it is very dangerous to take care of

9 children without having this qualification". In France

10 you do it without.

11 Then I came back to the house and I said, "You have

12 to do this otherwise we are under the very wrong side".

13 That is why she started this course.

14 MS GIBSON: Is that a course that she had done before or

15 after she was looking after Victoria?

16 MR KIMBIDIMA: It is after. We went through the

17 registration process and the social worker was taking

18 care of this process, actually. I used to give her this

19 sort of advice, "Go to this course, it is for three

20 days. Go to the other one for...." Yes.

21 MS GIBSON: Can you help with what language the textbooks

22 for that course were written in?

23 MR KIMBIDIMA: English.

24 MS GIBSON: So your wife was studying that in English?

25 MR KIMBIDIMA: My wife, of course she does English and my

224



1 daughter helps her and I help her. She can understand

2 English and read things in English.

3 MS GIBSON: She gave evidence through a translator. Can you

4 explain that if she is studying books in English?

5 MR KIMBIDIMA: Because this is a serious case and she does

6 not want to say something she does not mean. It happens

7 when you translate French into English instead of

8 speaking straight away in English.

9 MS GIBSON: Thank you very much Mr Kimbidima.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Kimbidima, one question following that.

11 When Victoria was alive, just to be sure, did any social

12 worker ever ask you about your views about Victoria?

13 MR KIMBIDIMA: No. Never spoke to any social worker about

14 Anna.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Nor a police officer?

16 MR KIMBIDIMA: Nor a police officer. I was supposed to go

17 to the police when -- after the third allegation and

18 actually Marie-Therese said, "Please come to the police

19 station to defend Carl because I do not want this

20 innocent guy to be in trouble". And I said okay. I am

21 working, but I said okay. I have already told my boss

22 I will go to the police if I am required there.

23 I was willing to go there to say what I knew about

24 Carl because I could not think of him actually capable

25 of doing such things, and I know it was the following

225



1 Friday and not on that Friday, nothing happened, and

2 I heard that Carl was still waiting at home for the

3 police to come and arrest him or take him to the station

4 for just a hearing and it never happened.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: He never was interviewed by the police?

6 MR KIMBIDIMA: Not as far as I know.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Had you gone with him you would have told the

8 police what you have told us today?

9 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. What it was, actually, like when

10 Marie-Therese herself asked her daughter, the daughter

11 said, "Yes, yes sir he did". But when I asked her

12 eventually she said, "No, sorry, I was lying". So like

13 I said in the beginning -- and I am a little bit

14 disappointed, I really thought I was stronger

15 spiritually than the demon that Anna had. So I said,

16 "I will go there. At least I will save Carl's face but

17 I am really disappointed today."

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you still in touch with Kouao?

19 MR KIMBIDIMA: Sorry?

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you still in touch with Kouao?

21 MR KIMBIDIMA: She phoned me from prison twice and that was

22 before the trial and I said to her, "I do not believe

23 anything of what you are saying now". She said, "Do not

24 tell me that this Satan is now invading the police's

25 head. Do not tell me that now it is invading your head

226



1 as well because I know you are stronger than these

2 demons" and I said, "Please, you have done too much and

3 now I cannot believe anything because you remember you

4 asked Carl to come and apologise because you did not

5 want him to lack respect for me, but actually you did

6 not respect me at all so I do not want to hear you. And

7 it is not even good for you because I know my telephone

8 is being monitored, so by you calling me it is just

9 telling things that would be bad for you during the

10 trial".

11 And then she went on, "I know because the police are

12 listening to me" and she started shouting to the police

13 and things. That was the last day.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you agree to have your telephone

15 monitored?

16 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, no. Never have. I suppose actually

17 I was because knowing that when this death happened she

18 did not say anything to the police, nothing at all, and

19 Friday or Saturday -- it is on Tuesday I say, "What is

20 going on?" They say, "Anna is dead, there is nobody at

21 home." I could not understand. Then I hear that it was

22 at Paddington Hospital that the death occurred. Then

23 I wonder -- they say, "Who are you?" I say I am

24 a friend. They gave me a telephone number to call and

25 I~called the police, that was the police actually, and

227



1 they said, "Can we come to your house today?" And

2 I said "Yes, please do", and they came.

3 So I think that I was the first person they

4 contacted, the first person who knew. So I was for sure

5 that my phone would be monitored.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it still monitored?

7 MR KIMBIDIMA: I do not know if it was. I assumed. It

8 is -- on telly that would be the case. So I do not know

9 if it has been monitored. I do not know.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: What about now, is it monitored now?

11 MR KIMBIDIMA: I do not know. I do not mind it is being

12 monitored.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr Kimbidima.

14 Ms Gibson?

15 MS GIBSON: Thank you, no further questions.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen we

17 will adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning. Thank you

18 very much indeed.

19 (5.25 pm)

20 (Hearing adjourned until 9.30 am the following day)

21

22

23

24

25