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Archived Transcript for 6 December 2001:
Pages 151 to 200
151
1 MS GIBSON: You have already said you thought this woman was
2 behaving in a crazy way. You could not trust her to
3 tell Social Services what was going on.
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: At that time Marie-Therese had given our
5 address and our telephone number to the social services
6 and surely that was for them to ask me the questions.
7 MS GIBSON: How did you know that Marie-Therese had given
8 them your address and telephone number?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Because when Marie-Therese was with the
10 social services and with the police she gave them our
11 telephone number because she said to me -- them to call
12 me to ask whether I would look after the child.
13 MS GIBSON: You also had further contact from
14 Social Services in December, when you told the social
15 worker that Marie-Therese had left your house and gone
16 back to live with Carl Manning.
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Did they call me?
18 MS GIBSON: Yes, I am saying did they call you. Do you
19 remember that?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Social Services?
21 MS GIBSON: Yes.
22 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, the only time they called me was that
23 time they called me to ask me to look after the child.
24 MS GIBSON: Well if we have a look at volume 6, page 51, you
25 will see about two-thirds of the way down the page there
152
1 is a reference to a telephone call to Julien and
2 Chantal. Perhaps if that could be translated what it
3 says there about the content of the call.
4 (Document translated into French by interpreter)
5 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It might have been to my husband but it
6 certainly was not to me.
7 MS GIBSON: Is it possible though that it may have been to
8 you and you have forgotten, because it is a long time
9 ago?
10 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I cannot say. I really cannot say that
11 I recall that.
12 MS GIBSON: Thank you. Finally, in January Marie-Therese
13 came to your house one evening when it was your
14 husband's birthday.
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I invited her for my husband's
16 birthday.
17 MS GIBSON: You invited her. I thought by this stage that
18 you were rather taken against her.
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, it is true, I had, but it was just for
20 the birthday party because she had invited us to Carl's
21 party.
22 MS GIBSON: On that occasion you asked her about Victoria
23 and she explained that Victoria was left alone at home.
24 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she told me that and because of that
25 she stayed only 10 to 15 minutes before going away.
153
1 MS GIBSON: But at that stage she was saying to you that she
2 often left Victoria alone because she was such an
3 embarrassment, always soiling herself and so on.
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she told me that, "I leave my daughter
5 at night sometimes".
6 MS GIBSON: On her own?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Only when I go out to buy something not far
8 away.
9 MS GIBSON: In relation to Marie-Therese, at this time what
10 she was saying to you and your husband was that she was
11 leaving this child on her own for long periods of time?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I do not know whether she said that.
13 MS GIBSON: What was your impression of Carl Manning?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I found him to be a quiet man. He did not
15 say much, and in any case we could not speak. He did
16 not speak French.
17 MS GIBSON: Did you think that he was the sort of person who
18 would abuse or kill a child?
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, I never -- it never crossed my mind.
20 I did not ask that question.
21 MS GIBSON: Thank you, I have no more questions.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Ms Gibson. Mrs Kimbidima, just
23 a couple of questions from me, please. First of all,
24 earlier on Ms Gibson asked you about any concerns that
25 you had about the allegations of sexual abuse against
154
1 Victoria. That was the context, and this is the
2 question: The answer that you gave to Ms Gibson was:
3 "As I said, it was my husband who was involved in
4 that. He even went and spent a night over there".
5 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, when I said "spent the night" he came
6 back very late, maybe 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: So it would be more correct to say he spent
8 the evening over there, rather than the night?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, because he did not go there until about
10 midnight.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh. Could Mrs Kimbidima tell me at what time
12 of year that was?
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It is a long while back to remember.
14 I really cannot recall, I am sorry.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, have a guess. Between your daughter's
16 birthday and your husband's birthday?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It is possible, it is possible it may have
18 been in October.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: And you are sure that you recalled definitely
20 that your husband said that he had actually visited the
21 house?
22 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, because Marie-Therese had called him to
23 go there.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: If I could ask you about when Social Services
25 rang you to ask you to have Kouao and Victoria stay with
155
1 you. Who was in the house, apart from you?
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: My daughter, my children.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: How well do they speak English?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: My daughter speaks very good English.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Could she have interpreted the social
6 worker's call to you?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, could have done, yes.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: And did she?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I cannot really remember but I think it is
10 a possibility, yes.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well if Mrs Kimbidima could just tell me
12 again exactly what the social worker asked Mrs Kimbidima
13 to do.
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: They asked me if I could put Marie-Therese
15 and her daughter up.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Why, and for how long?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: For six months. The reason was that
18 Marie-Therese asked them to ask me if I could do it.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Did they ask if you had a spare bedroom and
20 beds?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, they did not.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Did they ask you if you had any children?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, they did not.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Did they ask you if you had a husband who was
25 living with you?
156
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, they did not. Nothing like that.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: They asked you nothing, other than just to
3 provide accommodation?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No other questions.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Did they ask you or did they tell you how you
6 might be reimbursed for accommodating?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, nothing at all about that.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: So just so that I understand: this is
9 a telephone call completely out of the blue, with
10 a stranger that you have never heard of, never met, from
11 Social Services, saying, "Will you accommodate Kouao and
12 Victoria for six months?"
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She said to me that Marie-Therese is next to
14 me here with Anna and they have a problem with
15 accommodation. That is all.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs Kimbidima you had said earlier on that
17 you would find it difficult to have a child in your
18 house that had the kind of problems that you had been
19 told about.
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, yes it is true. It would have been
21 a big problem because we do not -- we live in
22 a completely different style.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: But if it was not possible to have Victoria
24 for one week, why was it possible to contemplate it for
25 six months?
157
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: As I said, I did say yes but then afterwards
2 I said, no.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you have a spare bedroom or two?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Marie-Therese was aware that I had
5 a spare room.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you not think that it would be a good
7 opportunity for you to say to Social Services, "Do you
8 realise the problems that this young girl has"?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: The person who called me called me in
10 a great hurry. She was in a hurry.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: How did you know that?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: The way she spoke; she seemed anxious to
13 hang up.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: But this is no sort of trivial matter to
15 contemplate taking someone into your home for six months
16 when you have really great concerns both about the child
17 and the adult.
18 MRS KIMBIDIMA: First of all I said yes because I thought,
19 "My god, these people are homeless, they have been put
20 out". But when I discussed it later with my husband
21 I said no.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. There is just one other point
23 I would like to put to you. You said several times that
24 you did not want to get involved.
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, because a long time before that I had
158
1 already said to my husband, "This relationship between
2 Marie-Therese and myself is over, it is finished".
3 THE CHAIRMAN: But you are a mother and if your child ever
4 got into a position where in some circumstances she was
5 at risk, would you not hope that there would be someone
6 around who would get involved and protect her?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, the police are the ones to deal with
8 this.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, yes, but is it not true that the
10 protection of children is a responsibility of all of us
11 who are adult?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: What can I say to that?
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, what you could say is that the police
14 did not see what you saw and know what you knew.
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: At that time I believed the police were
16 already well informed of this.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I guess that is the kind of assumption
18 that does expose children to danger, is it not?
19 Thank you very much Mrs Kimbidima. Ms Gibson.
20 MS GIBSON: Sir one last point I have been asked to clarify.
21 You mentioned before that Marie-Therese had spoken
22 to you about advice she had got from a doctor about
23 Victoria's incontinence.
24 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. What she had told us was she had been
25 to see a doctor about this problem but the doctor would
159
1 not follow it up because the child behaved so badly
2 while she was present with him.
3 MS GIBSON: Did Marie-Therese suggest that the doctor had
4 said anything about what might be the cause of the
5 incontinence?
6 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she did not say much about it, really.
7 MS GIBSON: Was there any suggestion that it might be caused
8 by some sort of allergy, and if so, what?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she did not tell me much about it at
10 all.
11 MS GIBSON: Thank you very much, Mrs Kimbidima, and thank
12 you for attending.
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Unfortunately I have not been introduced so
15 I do not know your name. Are you going to be
16 interpreting for Mr Kimbidima, or not?
17 THE INTERPRETER: I think, sir, he is quite able to ...
18 MS GIBSON: That was my understanding. It was Mrs Kimbidima
19 who needed the translator but not Mr Kimbidima.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I did not want to let the opportunity pass
21 then without me thanking you very much for your help.
22 Mrs Kimbidima, one thing. We are going to adjourn
23 for ten minutes but you are not allowed to talk to your
24 husband about the evidence that he will be giving to the
25 Inquiry during those ten minutes.
160
1 THE INTERPRETER: There is a problem sir that given that
2 Mr and Mrs Kimbidima are going to be here, there needs
3 to be someone to fetch the children from school, and
4 that is what the lady would like to do.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean she is going to leave forthwith?
6 THE INTERPRETER: With your permission.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: She has my permission but not to chat with
8 your husband along the way.
9 Ladies and gentlemen we will now adjourn until
10 3.40 pm.
11 (3.30 pm)
12 (A short break)
13 (3.40 pm)
14 MS GIBSON: Sir, thank you. The next witness is
15 Julien Kimbidima.
16 MR JULIEN KIMBIDIMA (sworn)
17 MS GIBSON: Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr Kimbidima.
18 MR KIMBIDIMA: Good afternoon, madam.
19 MS GIBSON: Can you begin by giving the Inquiry your full
20 name.
21 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. My name is Julien Kimbidima.
22 MS GIBSON: You have made one statement for this Inquiry and
23 a copy of that is in front of you. Can you confirm that
24 the contents of that statement are true. I think you
25 signed it at the end.
161
1 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, it is.
2 MS GIBSON: There is nothing you want to alter or amend in
3 that statement, is there?
4 MR KIMBIDIMA: No.
5 MS GIBSON: It is correct that you came to London from Paris
6 and that like your wife you come originally from the
7 Congo, from the French speaking part of there?
8 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
9 MS GIBSON: You have three children?
10 MR KIMBIDIMA: I have three children.
11 MS GIBSON: You met Marie-Therese Kouao one evening after
12 you were coming back from work?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
14 MS GIBSON: She approached you in the street?
15 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she did.
16 MS GIBSON: Did you not find it strange at the time that
17 this woman that you did not know came up to you to speak
18 to you?
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, I did not. I did not. She was on the
20 street and she said "hello" to me, I said hello and then
21 she asked me a question. There was nothing strange.
22 MS GIBSON: I got the impression that perhaps you were not
23 entirely happy at first that she was speaking to you and
24 that you tried to tell her that in fact you came from
25 Ghana, from an English speaking country.
162
1 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, actually, because the first question she
2 asked was if I spoke French and then I said, no, I do
3 not. It was not that I did not want to speak to her, it
4 is just -- I do not know how to explain.
5 MS GIBSON: Was she quite persistent in wanting to talk to
6 you?
7 MR KIMBIDIMA: I cannot say yes because I did not mind
8 actually her talking to me, so ...
9 MS GIBSON: And you invited her back to your house?
10 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, because actually for the questions
11 actually she was asking me about how to get a council
12 flat and we could not stay on the street talking about
13 this, especially it was not far from my place and from
14 work -- I mean from my window, my wife could be looking
15 out and, "What is my husband doing with that woman?" So
16 I said my house is just two minutes away, let us go
17 there and talk about it.
18 MS GIBSON: So you went up to the house and spoke about the
19 council housing for her?
20 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
21 MS GIBSON: You were able to explain to her quite well what
22 the system was, what she should do to go about getting
23 housing?
24 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I told her everything that I did myself.
25 MS GIBSON: It is right that from your experiences in
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1 looking for housing you are quite used to dealing with
2 the council?
3 MR KIMBIDIMA: That was my first experience.
4 MS GIBSON: Yes, but you had no problem in negotiating your
5 way around the system?
6 MR KIMBIDIMA: None at all. I went there and asked what to
7 do. They gave me a form. I filled it in and that is
8 it.
9 MS GIBSON: Your written English is as good as your spoken
10 English?
11 MR KIMBIDIMA: I hope so.
12 MS GIBSON: Did you learn English at school?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, in the Congo. Because actually it has
14 been my favourite pastime, that is why.
15 MS GIBSON: Your English, if you do not mind me saying, now
16 seems to be very good. Was it equally good at that
17 time?
18 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I think so, because when I came -- went
19 to college to learn English, after a test, I was level 8
20 out of 9, so I did not even go to school.
21 MS GIBSON: When you spoke to Marie-Therese at your house
22 about council housing and so on, did she tell you much
23 about her own background and how she came to be in
24 England?
25 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. She told me actually where -- like
164
1 every time -- when you meet someone for the first time
2 you talk about where you have been living before, what
3 you have done before and how long you have been in
4 England or things like that.
5 MS GIBSON: She told you that she had worked at the Charles
6 de Gaulle Airport in navigation?
7 MR KIMBIDIMA: In navigation, yes.
8 MS GIBSON: What did you understand that she had done there?
9 MR KIMBIDIMA: Nothing much. I mean, navigation I think --
10 I do not know, I cannot tell you.
11 MS GIBSON: Did you get the impression she had been quite
12 successful in what she had been doing in France?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
14 MS GIBSON: Did you gain any real understanding of why she
15 had come to England and given up this job at the
16 airport?
17 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, she did not give me the impression that
18 she had given up that job; that she came to improve her
19 English and she would go back to France and go back to
20 her job.
21 MS GIBSON: That was the plan, to go back to the job
22 eventually?
23 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
24 MS GIBSON: You knew at that stage that she was living in
25 hostel accommodation, did you? What did she tell you
165
1 about what her circumstances were at this time?
2 MR KIMBIDIMA: She was living in a hotel. I think she was
3 in a hotel because she mentioned something about
4 paying £160 a week. Yes, it was a hotel actually, it
5 was not a hostel.
6 MS GIBSON: Was she happy with that accommodation?
7 MR KIMBIDIMA: It was very expensive.
8 MS GIBSON: Did she say anything about the condition of the
9 accommodation?
10 MR KIMBIDIMA: No.
11 MS GIBSON: You then met her on a second occasion for your
12 daughter's birthday.
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
14 MS GIBSON: How soon after that first meeting did she attend
15 for your daughter's birthday?
16 MR KIMBIDIMA: It could be a week -- no, less than a week.
17 It could be a week or less than a week, so I cannot tell
18 you exactly, but not more than that.
19 MS GIBSON: Your wife indicated that your daughter's
20 birthday is on I think 2nd August.
21 MR KIMBIDIMA: 2nd August, yes.
22 MS GIBSON: That is right?
23 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, that is right.
24 MS GIBSON: Kouao came for the child's birthday party. Do
25 you remember what gift she brought for her?
166
1 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. It was -- I know because I have the
2 same one and my wife as well, because I remember I said
3 calculator or electronic or something and actually it
4 was not true and even my daughter screamed at me because
5 it was not true. It was I think a hat and a bag or
6 something, yes.
7 MS GIBSON: So from that I take it that you and your wife
8 have discussed the evidence and looked at each other's
9 statements and she said, "Oh, you have that bit wrong"
10 about the electronic diary?
11 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, this statement actually -- well, we have
12 been talking about it for a year now, so -- and we also
13 had things coming out in the newspapers, so, yes.
14 MS GIBSON: When you met Marie-Therese on these couple of
15 occasions, what impression did you form of her as
16 a person?
17 MR KIMBIDIMA: Nothing particular. Someone who was
18 friendly -- yes, if I can invite someone to my place,
19 here is someone that maybe I can trust.
20 MS GIBSON: What was her physical appearance like, in terms
21 of her dress?
22 MR KIMBIDIMA: She was fine. She was -- yes, according to
23 me well-dressed, although except she did not find she
24 was well-dressed because she said, "I do not want to go
25 to your place dressed the way I am". I said, "You are
167
1 okay, you do not need anything special to come to my
2 place" and off we went.
3 MS GIBSON: At that time, before you met the child who she
4 then referred to as Anna, did she talk to you about her
5 problems with the child?
6 MR KIMBIDIMA: No. Not at that time. I do not remember --
7 not yet. My wife, yes, because actually what I did,
8 bringing her to my place was not -- I mean the first
9 thing is she is a lady, she is a woman, so she has to be
10 my wife's friend first before she can be my friend, so
11 that day actually I remember we went home and
12 I introduce her to my wife, "This is my wife and this
13 is -- I do not even know her name." So I brought her to
14 my house but she became my wife's friend, yes. So
15 I knew about Anna, more from my wife than from herself.
16 I mean in the beginning.
17 MS GIBSON: Did you think that your wife liked her as much
18 as you did?
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: We do not have friends here in England and
20 that person who will speak French, and yes, so looked
21 friendly, it will be someone actually a friend to my
22 wife. If I liked her more than my wife did or --
23 I cannot answer. It was not the same approach because
24 at the end -- I mean some days later when she started
25 talking to me about her problems, I think it was --
168
1 I mean, she was crying for help. She wanted me to help
2 in prayers and things like that and I cannot forsake
3 someone who is in need of prayers.
4 MS GIBSON: You say in your statement that by the time she
5 brought the little girl around to your house she had
6 already told you about some of the problems she was
7 having with her.
8 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
9 MS GIBSON: Those were quite extreme problems, were they
10 not?
11 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, because -- yes, of course. She told us
12 about her daughter being burnt. That she had just been
13 in hospital. Things like that. I mean, her idea was to
14 tell us before we saw the girl because she said, "I do
15 not want you to be surprised". She said, "Do not think
16 or do not rejoice that your daughter will have a friend
17 because Anna is not someone who can be your daughter's
18 friend". Then she explained to us everything that
19 happened.
20 MS GIBSON: She was saying that Anna was not the kind of
21 girl who could be your daughter's friend. What was it
22 about her that made her not the sort of little girl who
23 would be an appropriate friend for your daughter, from
24 what Marie-Therese was telling you?
25 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. I think -- I do not know actually if
169
1 she already knew my daughter before saying that or if
2 she already knew her daughter before saying that. But
3 she explained to us things like her being possessed and
4 things like that, you know. She was: "Anna is not
5 someone who can come here and talk to your daughter.
6 She will only stand in a corner and watch things
7 happening".
8 MS GIBSON: So she said she would stand in a corner and
9 watch things happening. What did she put that down to?
10 MR KIMBIDIMA: Sorry?
11 MS GIBSON: You just said that Marie-Therese, before you met
12 Anna, was describing her as a child who would just stand
13 in a corner and watch what was going on. Did she
14 explain why that was?
15 MR KIMBIDIMA: The first thing actually we learned about
16 that girl was that she was possessed and that she did
17 many things and most of the things she did was not from
18 herself but from the demons who possessed her. So we
19 could not explain actually her behaviour.
20 MS GIBSON: Is this what Marie-Therese suggested to you or
21 what you suggested to her?
22 MR KIMBIDIMA: That is what she told us.
23 MS GIBSON: What sort of things did she say the demons were
24 making the child do?
25 MR KIMBIDIMA: Wetting herself, soiling the whole house,
170
1 prostituting herself back in the Ivory Coast, putting
2 faeces in food and cockroaches and everything she would
3 find.
4 MS GIBSON: You said that Marie-Therese said that this child
5 had been prostituting herself back in the Ivory Coast.
6 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
7 MS GIBSON: What did you think about that?
8 MR KIMBIDIMA: This actually came out many, many weeks later
9 with the sexual abuse issue.
10 MS GIBSON: This was not on the first meeting?
11 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, it was not the first meeting. No, it was
12 not.
13 MS GIBSON: While we are on that subject, she was describing
14 this little girl of I think you thought she was nine,
15 she was perhaps eight at the time, as prostituting
16 herself in the Ivory Coast. That must have shocked you
17 because when she was in the Ivory Coast she was even
18 younger.
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: Of course.
20 MS GIBSON: What did you make of this?
21 MR KIMBIDIMA: Like I said, this came out with the sexual
22 abuse issue. That was to explain to us actually how
23 this little girl would be accurate in explaining what
24 was happening in a house with Carl Manning. This was as
25 an answer to what we asked because we said how could
171
1 a little girl, such a little girl know how these things
2 work? That was the answer, because she has been doing
3 that back home.
4 MS GIBSON: Did you believe or think that that was likely to
5 be the case; that a little girl could have been
6 prostituting herself?
7 MR KIMBIDIMA: As a little girl was possessed, yes. It was
8 not actually prostituting herself, it was people abusing
9 her. That is a better way to put it.
10 MS GIBSON: You attribute that to the fact that she was
11 possessed, rather than that was something that was done
12 to her or that Marie-Therese was making up?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Never for any time that Marie-Therese made up
14 anything, until very late, of course.
15 MS GIBSON: So at the time you thought -- we will go to the
16 sexual abuse allegations later. But the first time when
17 Marie-Therese was telling you all about the way the
18 child behaved, putting faeces all over the house, what
19 else did she tell you about what she did with faeces at
20 that time, apart from just going to the toilet all over
21 the house? Were there other things she described?
22 MR KIMBIDIMA: That was the main two things, soiling herself
23 and putting faeces on all -- soiling herself. I do not
24 have any fresh memory or remember something else, no.
25 MS GIBSON: Did she describe her putting faeces in food?
172
1 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
2 MS GIBSON: And when she was telling you about the incident
3 with the burns, did she explain how that happened?
4 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she did. We could not understand much,
5 or understand deeply the thing of how it happened
6 because herself did not know exactly what has happened.
7 She did not know herself. Because we did not ask the
8 questions like, "How did it happen? Did she dive into
9 that water or did the water fall upon her or what
10 happened?" She did not know herself. So because she
11 did not know she could not explain to us properly.
12 MS GIBSON: Did she say where it had happened, to you?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: At the child minder's house.
14 MS GIBSON: Was the impression you got that it was something
15 the child minder had done to Victoria or that it was
16 something that Victoria had done to herself?
17 MR KIMBIDIMA: Something that Victoria had done to herself
18 because we asked questions like, "So what have you done
19 about it? What have you done to the child minder? Are
20 you going to sue her?" She said, "There is no point in
21 suing the child minder because it is not her fault,
22 I know my daughter, how she is. These are the sort of
23 things she does to annoy me".
24 MS GIBSON: Did she also say those were the sort of things
25 she did because she was possessed?
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1 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, of course. Yes. Most of the --
2 90 per cent of her behaviour was -- could be explained
3 by her being possessed.
4 MS GIBSON: Did you give Marie-Therese any advice about how
5 she should deal with this conduct of Victoria's, the way
6 she was behaving?
7 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. I mean, because she was really
8 struggling, it was not easy actually to have such a girl
9 here in England, some child minders now refusing to take
10 her, and the advice actually we gave her was to send
11 Anna back to the Ivory Coast. We said here you are
12 going to pay £80 a week through the child minder. In
13 the Ivory Coast £80 is enough to get someone to take
14 care of her for the whole month, everything included.
15 MS GIBSON: What about the little girl in all of this,
16 because you have just told us that Marie-Therese
17 mentioned that she was being abused in the Ivory Coast?
18 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. This is actually Marie-Therese answered
19 that there was no way she could send Anna back to the
20 Ivory Coast. There was nobody there who could take care
21 of her and that it was a big rejoicing the day she left
22 the country.
23 MS GIBSON: Looking back now, knowing what you know about
24 Marie-Therese, do you think that what she was telling
25 you about what happened in the Ivory Coast was correct
174
1 or do you think that is something that she was making
2 up?
3 MR KIMBIDIMA: Of course she did, yes. It is something she
4 made up.
5 MS GIBSON: Anyway, at the time the things she was telling
6 you about this child were quite extraordinary. I would
7 imagine you have probably never heard anyone talk about
8 a child behaving that way before?
9 MR KIMBIDIMA: Not in particular, no.
10 MS GIBSON: Not in particular? You have heard some things
11 like this before?
12 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, but I mean I know people -- I know
13 children actually who were born with bad spirits and who
14 had very bad behaviour back home as well and children
15 who will not grow, children who refuse to do this and
16 that. But to that extent that was the first experience.
17 MS GIBSON: So you know of children who do not grow because
18 of bad spirits?
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
20 MS GIBSON: And children who behave badly in the way you
21 have described Victoria behaving?
22 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, of course we know that some people
23 have -- were possessed and who have crushed themselves
24 or would do anything to their own body.
25 MS GIBSON: When it comes to children, do you not think the
175
1 more likely explanation for them not growing is because
2 their parents are not feeding them enough, not looking
3 after them properly?
4 MR KIMBIDIMA: Possession is something we learn from the
5 Bible. I generally do not question the Bible.
6 MS GIBSON: Do you not accept sometimes that parents can
7 mistreat their children?
8 MR KIMBIDIMA: Of course now after this experience I will be
9 more careful.
10 MS GIBSON: Did you suggest to Kouao that Victoria might be
11 possessed?
12 MR KIMBIDIMA: If I suggested it?
13 MS GIBSON: Yes.
14 MR KIMBIDIMA: I learned of this before even seeing the
15 little girl.
16 MS GIBSON: When you saw Victoria, what impression did you
17 form about her? You had been told that she was going to
18 be small.
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
20 MS GIBSON: Did she look small to you?
21 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
22 MS GIBSON: She, I think you thought, was about the same age
23 as your daughter who was nine. What sort of age did she
24 look to you?
25 MR KIMBIDIMA: Six.
176
1 MS GIBSON: When you saw her she had burn marks on her face.
2 Was there anything else about her appearance that struck
3 you?
4 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, actually, because -- the way she was, the
5 way she was and she came to us, we already knew about
6 it. We had the whole picture before even seeing her, so
7 actually we did not have anything striking, I thought.
8 MS GIBSON: But you have this woman, Marie-Therese, who you
9 have just described as being really quite nicely turned
10 out, who brings this little girl to you, who is short,
11 small for her age, face burnt, she comes in -- you
12 describe an old dress with long sleeves. Not very
13 nicely dressed, was she?
14 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, not very nice.
15 MS GIBSON: Dressed in quite old shabby clothes, would you
16 say?
17 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
18 MS GIBSON: What did that make you think about the way this
19 woman was looking after this little girl?
20 MR KIMBIDIMA: What I knew -- not the first day of course,
21 not the first day because I could not judge the first
22 day I think. But what I learned the days after was that
23 she did not have any more clothes for her, because when
24 she soiled herself many times she could not wash the
25 clothes but put them in the bin. So this could explain
177
1 her lack of clothes.
2 MS GIBSON: But this was a woman who had just come a week or
3 so before to your daughter's birthday party bringing her
4 a present, who managed to go back and forth to France,
5 who went shopping and left the child with your wife.
6 She had enough money to do those things. It must have
7 concerned you that she did not find the money to spend
8 on this little girl?
9 MR KIMBIDIMA: To be honest, it did not. It did not -- like
10 I said actually, yes, now looking at everything now,
11 yes. But before, knowing what the girl was ... you
12 know, if you believed in God and the bad spirits as
13 well, and if you have been told everything that you were
14 told, when you saw that little girl you would have been
15 scared even touching her or approaching her. But
16 I believe myself, I think that I am stronger than the
17 bad spirits. So I could allow her in my house.
18 MS GIBSON: When you first saw Victoria, what was her
19 behaviour like?
20 MR KIMBIDIMA: Someone not saying much, standing there and
21 watching you.
22 MS GIBSON: Her behaviour was not the way like Marie-Therese
23 described it?
24 MR KIMBIDIMA: The behaviour Marie-Therese described was
25 soiling and wetting herself and these are things she did
178
1 in my house as well.
2 MS GIBSON: Well your wife, who I think mainly looked after
3 Victoria when she stayed with you without Marie-Therese,
4 said that she wet herself in the house but she did not
5 soil herself.
6 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, no, not soiled herself, only wetting
7 herself.
8 MS GIBSON: And she was not a disruptive child, she was
9 a quiet little child?
10 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes she was.
11 MS GIBSON: One might say submissive, timid, that sort of
12 child.
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
14 MS GIBSON: Did it not worry you that your experience of
15 this child was not the same as the way Marie-Therese had
16 described her, as being a disruptive child, a child who
17 had caused mayhem in the hospital, pulling out people's
18 drips, that kind of thing? Quite the reverse in fact
19 when she came to stay with you?
20 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. I remember something that Marie-Therese
21 told me. She said -- and exactly what I just said
22 actually, something that I believed myself and that she
23 said as well. She said, "I seen you as someone who is
24 very strong and who is stronger than Anna's bad
25 spirits". I thought it myself. And when she said it,
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1 I believed it. And we see, maybe we have time to go
2 through it, many times when Anna told lies, when I asked
3 her she told the truth. So I thought that could play
4 a role like when she is in my house, her behaviour will
5 change.
6 MS GIBSON: So you actually took the view that the child was
7 possessed, rather than that her behaviour was down to
8 the way Kouao was treating her?
9 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
10 MS GIBSON: Looking back, do you still take that view?
11 MR KIMBIDIMA: No. Of course not. I was -- because
12 I remember talking to Marie-Therese's sister when she
13 came to England and I said, "Okay, now I want to
14 understand everything. Tell me how this possession
15 started. Tell me about this little girl when she was
16 back home" and I was surprised that she was surprised,
17 that she did not know anything about this little girl
18 being possessed, this little girl soiling herself and
19 wetting herself. So after this day, we have to review
20 everything and all her behaviour, actually, to know the
21 right truth.
22 MS GIBSON: As a result of what you learned, the fact that
23 you thought she was possessed, what did you decide you
24 were going to do about this?
25 MR KIMBIDIMA: It is not what I decided, it is what actually
180
1 Marie-Therese asked me. She said, "You are a man of
2 prayer" -- because the first time I saw her
3 Marie-Therese thought I was a Christian, born again
4 Christian, and the first thing I do is to ask if people
5 are Christian as well, so fantastic people who can pray
6 to me. So the first contact between us it was praying
7 and so what she says, "My daughter is possessed, please
8 I would like to go to church with you because when we go
9 to church, demons they get quieter," so I said, "Okay,
10 let us go" and I took her to church.
11 MS GIBSON: When you took her to church, you normally go to
12 a church in New Cross?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
14 MS GIBSON: But you went to a different church?
15 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
16 MS GIBSON: Why was that?
17 MR KIMBIDIMA: Because at that time we used to have three
18 services on Sundays and I usually went to the second and
19 the third service and as I was waiting for her and she
20 was not coming I missed the second service and I called
21 her and she said, "I was ready but Anna just soiled
22 herself so I had to clean her again". And she said,
23 "Please wait for me, I am coming" and she said, "Okay,
24 sorry, I have just cleaned everything and once again she
25 has wet herself. So you can go".
181
1 And I left and at the tube station I called my wife
2 and she said, "No, Marie-Therese is on the way, please
3 wait for her". So I said I missed the second service
4 now I have missed the third service as well. So I went
5 back with Marie-Therese and we had a leaflet of another
6 church, so I called the church to know what time is the
7 service and they say 2.30 and so I said let us go to
8 that church.
9 MS GIBSON: Than church was Pascal Orome's church?
10 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
11 MS GIBSON: I think you continued going to that church
12 rather than going back to your church in New Cross?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. The leaflet I just told you about was
14 about a prophet who was coming to England and I said,
15 "This man is calling himself a prophet". I thought that
16 was a blaspheme. So for that reason I kept the leaflet
17 with me and when I went to that church and they told me
18 the prophet is coming next week I thought okay, I will
19 go to see the prophet, I just want to see what a prophet
20 looks like, and I went there and I talked to the prophet
21 and he talked to me.
22 MS GIBSON: Were you pleased with what you found in this
23 prophet? Did he live up to your expectations?
24 MR KIMBIDIMA: He just showed me in the Bible what I did not
25 see myself, so I said okay, I listened to his teaching,
182
1 I believed and he was here for a week, so for the whole
2 week I took some time off to listen to his teachings.
3 MS GIBSON: When you went to Pascal Orome's church was the
4 type of teaching that went on there different to the
5 church you normally go to? The church you normally go
6 to is there teaching about evil spirits and demon
7 possession?
8 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, I would not go to a church where they
9 teach about bad spirits and possessions and everything.
10 I will go to a church where they teach the word simply.
11 It is funny because the following day we wanted to go to
12 church, we were late to my church as well, we were late,
13 and when the preaching has started you cannot get into
14 the church. You do not disturb the preaching. So
15 because we were late then we turned back and we said
16 okay, let us go to Pastor Pascal's church because that
17 is 2.30. So that is two times actually where I went to
18 Pastor Pascal's church without intending.
19 MS GIBSON: You say that when you went to this church
20 Victoria was not properly dressed for this church but
21 you went nonetheless.
22 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
23 MS GIBSON: In what way was she not appropriately dressed?
24 MR KIMBIDIMA: I think it is my standards actually. Maybe
25 someone else would say she was properly dressed but it
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1 was my standards, the way I dress myself and the way
2 I dress my children and the way Marie-Therese dresses
3 herself up as well, compared to the way Anna was
4 dressed.
5 MS GIBSON: Well, she is a little girl, so whose
6 responsibility is it to see that she is properly
7 dressed?
8 MR KIMBIDIMA: Of course her mother but when I asked the
9 question she said, "I have nothing left for her, I have
10 put everything in the bin and the last nice dress I had
11 this morning she soiled herself twice this morning so
12 I put everything in the bin".
13 MS GIBSON: It is right that when this little girl stayed
14 with your wife she would just sit quietly in the corner
15 while your children played?
16 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
17 MS GIBSON: Did you not think this was a bizarre way for
18 a child to behave?
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: The child was possessed, it is not very
20 bizarre.
21 MS GIBSON: Well Mr Kimbidima, you are an intelligent man.
22 Did you not even contemplate the idea that this little
23 girl who was dressed so differently to Marie-Therese,
24 who was said to behave in this dreadful way but yet was
25 quiet and submissive when you saw her, did you not
184
1 contemplate that in fact the reason why she was acting
2 like this was because of the way she was being treated,
3 not because of demons or devils?
4 MR KIMBIDIMA: I think we had -- in this particular case
5 I had two things. I never sin. I never had an
6 experience of a girl being possessed and I never had
7 experience of a child being ill-treated or having such
8 a bad treatment. So I had nothing in my memory which
9 could set me on this, thinking that she was being
10 mistreated. I would not think of it, it did not occur
11 to my mind.
12 MS GIBSON: It is the obvious explanation, is it not?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Sorry?
14 MS GIBSON: It is the obvious explanation that she is being
15 mistreated, what you saw about this child; not that she
16 is possessed?
17 MR KIMBIDIMA: What I am thinking today or what I thought at
18 the time?
19 MS GIBSON: At the time, looking at it at the time.
20 MR KIMBIDIMA: At the time the only explanation is that she
21 was possessed.
22 MS GIBSON: When you saw Marie-Therese with the child, your
23 wife has described the fact that Marie-Therese was harsh
24 towards her. Did you see that too?
25 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
185
1 MS GIBSON: And that she really did not seem to like the
2 little girl very much?
3 MR KIMBIDIMA: Marie-Therese was desperate, actually. She
4 told us that she has tried many things and things that
5 did not work. Nobody liked that little girl in the
6 Ivory Coast and because her sister died and that was her
7 sister's daughter she has to take her with her. So it
8 was not someone actually -- it is not the same love as
9 a mother loves a daughter, it is a love that has to be
10 because she is there and she is the mother at the time
11 but she was really just -- she looked desperate because
12 she asked me many times to pray for her, to pray for
13 Anna, to pray for her and to pray for Anna. She was
14 desperate.
15 MS GIBSON: Well she was desperate but not treating the
16 child in an acceptable way, being cruel towards her and
17 harsh, telling her that she was not her daughter in
18 front of other people, always pointing out the
19 differences between her and other children. That is
20 right, is it not?
21 MR KIMBIDIMA: Oh yes, but -- I am trying to say what I will
22 say before Anna's death, thinking that she was
23 possessed. So when we know the little girl is possessed
24 and the mother is doing her best, what she can do to get
25 out of this situation. I think the behaviour -- I mean
186
1 the way the mother reacted was quite normal. She was
2 not -- I mean the time we knew her she did not beat her
3 up, she did not slap her. Maybe on one or two occasions
4 but there was not physical abuse.
5 MS GIBSON: You say slapped her on one or two occasions.
6 Can you describe those couple of occasions when she
7 slapped her?
8 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, I say because -- she did not slap her and
9 I said --
10 MS GIBSON: No you said maybe on one or two occasions.
11 MR KIMBIDIMA: Because I do not want to be -- yes, that day
12 of sexual abuse for example in my house, when they came
13 to my house and she eventually said that she was lying,
14 I remember she -- yes, she slapped her at that time,
15 that day.
16 MS GIBSON: Whereabouts did she slap her?
17 MR KIMBIDIMA: It was on the hand or -- I do not remember,
18 actually. It should be on the hand or on the back
19 or ...
20 MS GIBSON: I think you were starting to say "on her head".
21 MR KIMBIDIMA: On the head?
22 MS GIBSON: Yes.
23 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, not on the head. I said hand or back.
24 MS GIBSON: May I ask you now about how Marie-Therese was
25 with Manning? You say that she denied that he was her
187
1 boyfriend but you thought that he might be. What gave
2 you that impression?
3 MR KIMBIDIMA: I said to her, as a Christian first I said,
4 "Be careful, you are living with someone, you are living
5 in fornication with someone", and then she said, "No,
6 there is nothing going on between us and nothing can go
7 on anyway because I am 43, and he is 26. So no,
8 I cannot. If it true to be I will tell you anyway, if
9 it had to be I will tell you because I want to tell you
10 everything I do." She said, "You are younger than me
11 but it is like you are my father and I will come to you
12 and take advice and anything I do I will tell you, so
13 this is not true." And the day Carl called her his
14 girlfriend I remember she asked Carl to come back to my
15 place to apologise for telling me lies.
16 MS GIBSON: But you thought that in fact that Carl was her
17 boyfriend?
18 MR KIMBIDIMA: I did not think, it was just Carl did not
19 have a girlfriend.
20 MS GIBSON: And they were staying in the same flat?
21 MR KIMBIDIMA: And they were staying in the same flat which
22 was a studio flat.
23 MS GIBSON: Was there anything in the way they were when
24 they were together that suggested they were a couple?
25 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, no.
188
1 MS GIBSON: Did you get the impression that Manning was
2 keener to talk about being her boyfriend than she was
3 the other way?
4 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. No, she told me many, many times
5 actually that Carl wanted her to become his wife but she
6 could not go that way.
7 MS GIBSON: How did Manning seem to you? What sort of
8 person was he?
9 MR KIMBIDIMA: He does not say much. Actually he is a very
10 quiet person. Yes, it is like we would be talking for
11 half an hour and he would say two things, while
12 Marie-Therese said 90 things.
13 MS GIBSON: Yes, Marie-Therese was a very talkative woman,
14 was she not?
15 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she was.
16 MS GIBSON: Did you form an impression between the two of
17 them of which one was in charge in their relationship,
18 or not relationship as it may be?
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: Of course it was Marie-Therese. That is easy
20 to say.
21 MS GIBSON: Yes, because you just described the way she
22 ordered Manning to come to you and apologise for talking
23 about being in a relationship with her.
24 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
25 MS GIBSON: Did you ever find anything about the way
189
1 Marie-Therese behaved strange?
2 MR KIMBIDIMA: The way she behaved with Carl, or ...?
3 MS GIBSON: No, generally.
4 MR KIMBIDIMA: Generally, no. Some questions we asked
5 ourselves, like going back to France, and wanting my
6 wife to take over looking after Anna while she was away,
7 going to France to sort out Anna's passport. So those
8 are the sort of questions we would ask ourselves. You
9 say if they are here, they have been here for four
10 months, she came with a passport if she has not got
11 French citizenship, and if she does not have French
12 citizenship she does not have to go to France to sort
13 out her passport, she can do it here in England. Those
14 are the sort of questions we would ask ourselves.
15 MS GIBSON: Did you see her come to your house one time when
16 she was dressed in strange clothes, wearing boots in the
17 middle of summer and a long African skirt? Your wife
18 described an occasion when she came to your house and
19 she seemed deranged.
20 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. I do not think I was at home that day
21 but like you have noticed yourself, I do not know if my
22 wife has said that maybe I liked more that girl than my
23 wife did. The thing is actually when they started to
24 have those arguments, I did not believe my wife in the
25 beginning when my wife was saying, "This woman, I do not
190
1 trust her. I do not trust her" and I thought it was
2 just something like my wife was taking out of the
3 relationship with Marie-Therese just as a simple one,
4 a simple relationship, but in this relationship I wanted
5 to help this woman in prayers.
6 So I did not want my wife to break this because to
7 me it was a job, a work I was doing for God. So when my
8 wife described Marie-Therese in that manner I did not
9 really believe. I said, "Okay, you are saying that
10 because you do not want me to carry on".
11 MS GIBSON: Do you think that Marie-Therese was attracted to
12 you?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: No.
14 MS GIBSON: Did you think that perhaps your wife was jealous
15 of your relationship with her?
16 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, she is not. She trusts me.
17 MS GIBSON: Well you were leaving her at home while you took
18 this well-dressed woman to church on several occasions.
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
20 MS GIBSON: To sort out this child -- this woman you had met
21 in the street.
22 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
23 MS GIBSON: Why did you take it upon yourself to do all
24 these things for this person?
25 MR KIMBIDIMA: A good samaritan, maybe.
191
1 MS GIBSON: Where did your good samaritan role fit in when
2 it came to looking after Victoria's interests?
3 MR KIMBIDIMA: Like I said, when I want to do something
4 I will not want to break my marriage as well, so if my
5 wife says no, then I have to stop. When I take or when
6 I took Marie-Therese to church my wife did not say no.
7 So I have to balance all the time.
8 MS GIBSON: You say that your wife had views about
9 Marie-Therese that she did not like her very much, that
10 she thought she was a bit deranged.
11 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
12 MS GIBSON: And you dismissed those views?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, you remember I met Marie-Therese at the
14 end of July and going to church was in August and these
15 things like the argument they were having were happening
16 in late September or October. I think it was in
17 October, because just after this argument I said to my
18 wife, "Okay, I will take your side" and then we did not
19 see Marie-Therese any more for two months-something.
20 MS GIBSON: It is right that Marie-Therese would shout at
21 your wife sometimes?
22 MR KIMBIDIMA: That is what my wife said but I would believe
23 her.
24 MS GIBSON: Presumably you believed your wife about that,
25 rather than Marie-Therese?
192
1 MR KIMBIDIMA: Sorry?
2 MS GIBSON: You would believe what your wife told you,
3 I assume?
4 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
5 MS GIBSON: So why were you troubling yourself with this
6 woman who was shouting at your wife?
7 MR KIMBIDIMA: When I believed my wife we stopped seeing
8 Marie-Therese and Marie-Therese stopped coming to our
9 house.
10 MS GIBSON: Did you ever witness Victoria doing any of the
11 things that Marie-Therese had described to you? Any of
12 the bad behaviour?
13 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, in my house the only thing was the two
14 times that she wet herself and, yes, when you see a girl
15 who is eight years old standing there, not sleeping and
16 wetting herself, you wonder what is going on. And when
17 you asked her she would say -- her answer was always,
18 "I am doing this to annoy my mum", so that was a very
19 bad one.
20 Yes, that is what I experienced myself, apart from
21 the days when I went to Carl's place and saw all the
22 kettles, nothing on the floor and everything very high
23 placed so Anna could not reach because if she could
24 reach she would put everything bad in the food.
25 MS GIBSON: When Victoria said that she was doing things to
193
1 annoy her mother, as she was describing Kouao, was Kouao
2 there with Victoria?
3 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
4 MS GIBSON: Looking back now, do you think that it is
5 possible that Kouao was instructing Victoria about what
6 she should be saying?
7 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, that is what I said to Kouao herself
8 when she phoned me from prison.
9 MS GIBSON: Can we turn now to the allegations of sexual
10 abuse. You say that Kouao brought Victoria to see you
11 after she had made an allegation of abuse against Carl.
12 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
13 MS GIBSON: At that stage did Marie-Therese believe that he
14 might have done something to the little girl?
15 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I think she did. I am sure she did.
16 That is why she told me about it and she said, "I need
17 to come to your place so that we can sort this matter
18 out". But I could not believe a word of all that story.
19 MS GIBSON: Why was it that you did not think that there
20 might be at least a possibility that there might be
21 something in this?
22 MR KIMBIDIMA: You see, what I said was, "Let us talk about
23 it". I knew Carl, the way he was: a very quiet man, not
24 saying anything. And also willing to enter into
25 a relationship with the mother. This is the first
194
1 thing.
2 The second was seeing how the little girl was.
3 I mean, the little girl, you live in the same house and
4 she wets herself all the time. I mean, you can smell
5 when you go into the house. I say, "How can Carl do
6 this? It is not possible". Well anyway he come to my
7 house, we talk about it, and yes, we will see.
8 MS GIBSON: So you formed the impression that Manning was
9 not capable of that sort of thing because he was quiet.
10 He had hardly spoken to you. How could you draw the
11 conclusion that he was not capable of sexual abuse?
12 Just by virtue of the fact that he was living with the
13 child's mother?
14 MR KIMBIDIMA: You know, even today I cannot believe it,
15 I cannot believe that he did what I read in the papers
16 and I nearly said to Carl, "Why are you telling lies
17 against yourself?" Even today I do not believe it, but
18 he confess.
19 MS GIBSON: I am not interested in whether it is true or
20 not, it is your response to it and the fact that --
21 MR KIMBIDIMA: I knew the person. We spoke to each other
22 I do not know how many times and I went to the place --
23 he was a friend.
24 MS GIBSON: And you felt it was appropriate to speak to
25 Victoria about what had happened? Marie-Therese had
195
1 specifically brought the child to you because she
2 thought that your will was stronger than the child's?
3 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, first thing. But also I think that
4 Marie-Therese herself was not very sure whether Carl has
5 done that or not. Because she asked Carl and Carl said
6 no and she asked the little girl and the little girl
7 said yes she did. And because we also knew she was
8 possessed and she could say anything -- I mean we used
9 to say or she used to say it is not her, she is not Anna
10 who is speaking, it is the demons within her which are
11 speaking.
12 MS GIBSON: What are the sort of things that she said that
13 caused you to think it was the demons that were
14 speaking? What other things would she say to you that
15 made you think it was the demons speaking?
16 MR KIMBIDIMA: Anna?
17 MS GIBSON: Yes.
18 MR KIMBIDIMA: Shouting, from time to time. Shouting at
19 people, shouting at her mother, shouting at ... I mean
20 it was just strange, it was strange behaviour.
21 MS GIBSON: Did you not at any stage think that as a result
22 of this strange behaviour that you should contact or
23 encourage Marie-Therese to contact the doctors?
24 MR KIMBIDIMA: Anna has just been in hospital, so just been
25 seen by doctors.
196
1 MS GIBSON: She has been in the hospital for burns but what
2 about her strange behavioural problems?
3 MR KIMBIDIMA: If she had been pulling off drips and
4 everything, those doctors and specialists have seen all
5 these things. But all the same, we did say things, we
6 did give advice about -- I tried everything, like "You
7 must take the little girl to school." She said, "Yes,
8 I have already tried. In France she went to school.
9 Every day I had to go and pick her up because she had
10 soiled herself" and things like that. So there was not
11 much we could do.
12 MS GIBSON: And you presumably from that were aware that she
13 was not going to school in England?
14 MR KIMBIDIMA: I did go to Haringey Education Service --
15 I do not know exactly what is the name. I went there to
16 try and find a place for Anna. I said she has to go to
17 school. Yes, we did some stuff actually together to go
18 to school.
19 MS GIBSON: Do you remember which place you went to to
20 enquire about schools?
21 MR KIMBIDIMA: There is an education service or something
22 service, Wood Green, Station Road near to Wood Green
23 Station. There is only one place you can go and find
24 schools.
25 MS GIBSON: What was the result of those enquiries?
197
1 MR KIMBIDIMA: That they will write to us because I think
2 the schools were full up at that time as well. But
3 I know that she eventually got a school, or social
4 workers got a school for her somewhere, I do not know.
5 And Marie-Therese was complaining it is too far, too far
6 and she wanted some financial help, which she did not
7 get.
8 MS GIBSON: Is this something that Marie-Therese was telling
9 you?
10 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
11 MS GIBSON: Going back now to the sexual abuse allegation.
12 When she came to speak to you about that you made her
13 kneel down in front of Manning and apologise to him.
14 That was you who did that, was it, or was it
15 Marie-Therese?
16 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, Marie-Therese.
17 MS GIBSON: Because your wife remembers it was you who
18 instructed Victoria to do that.
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: No. It was Marie-Therese. It was
20 Marie-Therese.
21 MS GIBSON: Would that be the kind of thing, though, that
22 you might instruct a child to do who has been badly
23 behaved?
24 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, I never asked such a thing. I never ask
25 my children such a thing but when I see somebody, some
198
1 person doing it, some other people doing it, it is not
2 strange to me. It is known that some people do it.
3 MS GIBSON: You would not do it with your own children. Why
4 is that? Do you think it is unacceptable?
5 MR KIMBIDIMA: I have done it myself to my father or my
6 mother and I have a friend every time her children come
7 from school, they are big, 12 years old, they kneel down
8 before her to say hello to mum.
9 MS GIBSON: So you did not see anything at all inappropriate
10 about that?
11 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, not at all.
12 MS GIBSON: When you went to Manning's flat you described
13 some of what you saw there and the fact that things were
14 put up high so Victoria could not reach them. Can you
15 describe what the flat was like generally? Was it tidy
16 or untidy?
17 MR KIMBIDIMA: It was tidy. It was tidy.
18 MS GIBSON: Did you notice -- you said it smells of urine.
19 Did you also smell any smell of bleach in the flat?
20 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, because every time she soiled
21 herself Marie-Therese had to clean and bleach
22 everything.
23 MS GIBSON: When you asked Victoria about what Manning had
24 done to her and she gave an account, what you describe
25 in your statement is him putting his fingers inside her.
199
1 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she said that in front of everybody and
2 then I took her into the kitchen and I spoke to her in
3 private and then she said, "No, I was lying".
4 MS GIBSON: Was it at that time you described earlier that
5 there was some problem or there was discussion about the
6 child having been some kind of prostitute in the Ivory
7 Coast? Was that at that stage?
8 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, at that stage because the way she
9 described things -- I mean she was so accurate, like
10 "I do this" -- I mean things a little girl cannot know.
11 When I asked Marie-Therese how can she know all this,
12 after pressing and pressing this is what comes out, she
13 told us that she had experience.
14 MS GIBSON: Tell us what Marie-Therese told you about that.
15 MR KIMBIDIMA: About what, sorry?
16 MS GIBSON: About what had been happening before.
17 MR KIMBIDIMA: In the Ivory Coast?
18 MS GIBSON: Yes.
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: That people used to give her 1,000 French
20 francs, which is a pound, to abuse her.
21 MS GIBSON: After this you must have been even more worried
22 about this girl. Not only was there all of the strange
23 behaviour but also now the fact that either she had been
24 a victim of abuse or that Marie-Therese was saying this
25 about her. Did you not at that stage think about
200
1 contacting social services?
2 MR KIMBIDIMA: No. No, because like I said we really
3 believed that she was possessed and that what she was
4 saying was not from herself. We have to keep this in
5 mind. That is what was our very, very strong belief.
6 MS GIBSON: By your belief you mean the belief of
7 Marie-Therese and yourself; is that right?
8 MR KIMBIDIMA: Yes, yes of course Marie-Therese, she is the
9 little girl's mother.
10 MS GIBSON: Not a belief that your wife shared to the same
11 degree?
12 MR KIMBIDIMA: At that time there was no argument yet
13 between Marie-Therese and my wife.
14 MS GIBSON: But your wife has described that although she
15 was concerned about Victoria she has not mentioned her
16 being possessed, but she just thought that
17 social services were already on the case. Was that your
18 understanding?
19 MR KIMBIDIMA: No, what I mean is if that girl was in
20 hospital, if that girl was in hospital, that meant the
21 doctors are involved and -- yes, of course the social
22 workers know about this because Marie-Therese has been
23 seeing these social workers to get financial help and to
24 get a school for her.
25 MS GIBSON: Again, you only had Marie-Therese's say-so for
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