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Archived Transcript for 6 December 2001:
Pages 101 to 150
101
1 I have let the child down as well. Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I am grateful to you, and I am grateful for
3 the way you have given your evidence this morning.
4 Thank you very much indeed.
5 MR SHELDON: No further questions, sir. Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will
7 take a break and if we could adjourn and resume at five
8 minutes past twelve. Thank you very much indeed.
9 (11.55 am)
10 (Short break)
11 (11.10 am)
12 MS GIBSON: Thank you, sir. Sorry to keep you waiting.
13 There are two applications. Firstly, one in relation to
14 the evidence of Audrey Hartley-Martin, which you have
15 just heard, from Ms Boye, I think she may have left the
16 room now; but also an application from Miss Hoyal in
17 respect of the evidence of Mr and Mrs Kimbidima, so it
18 may be convenient -- I see Ms Boye appear, so if she
19 makes the application first in respect of
20 Ms Hartley-Martin's evidence.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Whichever. Ms Boye, thank you.
22 MS BOYE: Sorry, sir, this is half an application because
23 I have just taken instructions. My clients are very
24 concerned about something that Mrs Hartley-Martin said
25 and wanted a further question put, but we were not able
102
1 to get that through in translation, what they wanted put
2 and what was happening, before she actually finished,
3 and at the time that we found out in the break she
4 apparently left the building quite quickly, so what I am
5 trying to establish now, sir, is whether it is something
6 that Mrs Climbie feels so strongly about that she would
7 like Mrs Hartley-Martin recalled to ask on another day,
8 or how we progress from now, so that is where I am at
9 the moment, sir.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I am grateful to you, Ms Boye. If you could
11 pursue that point and advise us at some time when
12 you are able.
13 MS BOYE: Certainly, sir. As soon as I have full
14 instructions I will certainly speak to you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I am sorry that Ms Hartley-Martin moved so
16 quickly. Thank you very much.
17 MS GIBSON: Now there is also an application from
18 Miss Hoyal, sir.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Miss Hoyal, thank you.
20 MISS HOYAL: Sir, my application concerns Rule 4.19 again
21 which is the rule which allows you to exercise your
22 discretion in favour of requesting a witness not to be
23 present in the Inquiry when another witness gives
24 evidence, and the two witnesses I am concerned about are
25 Mr and Mrs Kimbidima who are the two next witnesses.
103
1 Their evidence is important evidence because they
2 met and knew Victoria and Kouao and Manning as friends
3 and they were the friends that Kouao told social
4 services that she and Victoria were going to stay with
5 on 1st November and they have given evidence at the
6 Old Bailey, they have given statements to this Inquiry,
7 they gave statements to the Crown Prosecution Service
8 and there are important variations in the evidence that
9 they have given.
10 It would be foolish of me to think that they have
11 not had many opportunities to discuss the evidence that
12 they will be giving today, but notwithstanding that
13 limitation, I would suggest that it would be more
14 helpful to this Inquiry if Mr Kimbidima waited in the
15 waiting room whilst his wife gives her evidence; and
16 I believe for the first time this application is not
17 opposed by Haringey.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Miss Hoyal for that.
19 MS GIBSON: Sir, if I could just make a few brief
20 observations, that application also is not opposed by
21 Counsel to the Inquiry. Sir, you may think there is
22 some merit in this application given that the Kimbidimas
23 both give evidence on similar subjects. There is always
24 a risk that, if one party hears the other party's
25 evidence, it may be even unwittingly tainted, so, sir,
104
1 the same principles apply to this application as to the
2 other applications you have heard in respect of the
3 nurses. Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms Gibson. Just a moment, if
5 I may. I would like to have a quiet moment with my
6 colleagues, thank you. (Pause)
7 Thank you very much indeed. The application is
8 granted.
9 MS GIBSON: Thank you, sir. Then I will call
10 Chantel Kimbidima to give her evidence.
11 MRS CHANTEL KIMBIDIMA (sworn)
12 (Evidence given through an interpreter)
13 INTERPRETER (sworn)
14 MS GIBSON: Good morning Mrs Kimbidima. Thank you for
15 attending. Could you begin by giving the Inquiry your
16 full name.
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: My name is Mrs Kimbidima.
18 MS GIBSON: Is it right that you have made one statement for
19 the Inquiry which is at volume 7, page 113.501?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I gave a true statement.
21 MS GIBSON: Can you confirm that the contents of that
22 statement are true?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, it is the truth.
24 MS GIBSON: And there is nothing that you would wish to
25 amend or alter in that statement at this stage?
105
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No.
2 MS GIBSON: It is right that you are originally from the
3 Congo?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I am from Brazzaville in the Congo.
5 MS GIBSON: Thank you. You came to London about two and
6 a half to three years ago?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It will soon be three years.
8 MS GIBSON: Thank you. You came to London via Paris?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
10
11 MS GIBSON: How long were you in Paris before you came to
12 London?
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Ten years.
14 MS GIBSON: Did you ever meet Marie-Therese Kouao when
15 you were in Paris?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, I did not know her at all.
17 MS GIBSON: Is it right that the first occasion that you met
18 her was the time when your husband brought her home in
19 1999?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, that is it.
21 MS GIBSON: We know that shortly after the first time that
22 you met Miss Kouao you invited her to your daughter's
23 birthday party.
24 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That is true.
25 MS GIBSON: What date is your daughter's birthday?
106
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: 2nd August.
2 MS GIBSON: And about how long before that date on
3 2nd August, when she attended for your daughter's party,
4 did you meet her for the first time?
5 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Twice before. The birthday party was the
6 second time I met her.
7 MS GIBSON: Yes. The first time you met her was how long
8 before the birthday?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I will have to think about this to try to
10 remember. Perhaps two weeks.
11 MS GIBSON: Thank you. You met Kouao when your husband
12 brought her home. Were you surprised when your husband
13 brought another woman back to your house?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I was.
15 MS GIBSON: What impression did this woman give to you when
16 you first met her?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: A good impression.
18 MS GIBSON: When you say a good impression, do you mean in
19 the way that she appeared, her dress?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, and her behaviour, her comportment.
21 MS GIBSON: I think she stayed with you for about half an
22 hour?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, it was.
24 MS GIBSON: At that time she said that she had a daughter
25 who was a similar age to your daughter?
107
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, it was that day. It was either -- yes,
2 the day of the birthday party. Before that even.
3 MS GIBSON: Yes. I just want to establish how old your
4 daughter was in 1999. Which birthday was she
5 celebrating?
6 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She was nine years old.
7 MS GIBSON: Thank you. Is it the position that Kouao told
8 you that she had a daughter who was the same age as your
9 daughter?
10 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That is it, yes.
11 MS GIBSON: Did you and your husband exchange telephone
12 numbers with her on this first meeting?
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, we did.
14 MS GIBSON: What sort of telephone number did she give you?
15 Was it one for her house or a mobile telephone number?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It was for a mobile phone.
17 MS GIBSON: What did she tell you on that first meeting
18 about her daughter?
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That it was her natural daughter.
20 MS GIBSON: And did she tell you about what this child was
21 like?
22 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, not really.
23 MS GIBSON: So it was not at that stage that she described
24 any of her bizarre behaviour to you?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, not during the birthday party she did
108
1 not.
2 MS GIBSON: Not during the birthday party but I am talking
3 about the first meeting, which was two weeks before the
4 birthday party.
5 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she just said she had a daughter the
6 same age as my daughter and that is all she said.
7 MS GIBSON: I think your discussion during that time was
8 about housing; is that right?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she said she was looking for something,
10 a flat or something like that.
11 MS GIBSON: Did you and your husband give her information
12 about how she should go about that task?
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, my husband did.
14 MS GIBSON: Is it right that you had had some prior
15 experience of dealing with the council in relation to
16 housing matters?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, we had already done that. We followed
18 the appropriate route.
19 MS GIBSON: Was it you or your husband who principally dealt
20 with your housing application?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: My husband.
22 MS GIBSON: Would you, Mrs Kimbidima, be aware of how to
23 contact the council, either about housing or about -- or
24 the social services, if you had concerns about a child?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No.
109
1 MS GIBSON: But you live near -- or you live close to Wood
2 Green tube?
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
4 MS GIBSON: Are you aware that in the shopping centre there,
5 there is something called a One Stop Shop for matters
6 relating to housing or social services?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, I did not know that. We were looking
8 initially in the Tottenham area.
9 MS GIBSON: But it is right that you, maybe through your
10 husband, had been able to navigate your way round the
11 system to find housing?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
13 MS GIBSON: If you had wanted to get in touch with social
14 services about a child, you would know how to telephone
15 or how to find a telephone number?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I would have asked for it, or I would
17 have looked for it.
18 MS GIBSON: Thank you. Did you invite Kouao to your
19 daughter's birthday party on that first meeting, or was
20 it as a result of a telephone call later?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, it was on that day when she was there,
22 I mentioned it was on a certain day, the birthday party.
23 MS GIBSON: Had the plan been that she would bring her
24 child -- she was then calling the little girl Anna --
25 with her?
110
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, that is how I understood it.
2 MS GIBSON: I just want to ask, is it a usual thing for your
3 husband to meet someone in the street and to bring them
4 back home?
5 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, it is the first time he has done that.
6 MS GIBSON: Did you perhaps not entirely welcome the fact
7 that he had brought another woman back to your house
8 like this?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: As he explained -- as he explained it to me,
10 I thought, "Well, why not, because she is French
11 speaking and so am I".
12 MS GIBSON: When the woman came to your daughter's birthday
13 party, did she bring a present for her?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she brought a little hat and a matching
15 handbag.
16 MS GIBSON: Your husband mentioned in -- I think it was his
17 evidence in the trial that she brought an electronic
18 diary with her.
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, he was confused with somebody else.
20 MS GIBSON: So that present was given by someone else at the
21 same party?
22 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, it was.
23 MS GIBSON: When she came to that party, did she speak
24 a little bit about her daughter?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, I asked why she was not there,
111
1 why she had not come.
2 MS GIBSON: And what was her response?
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That she stayed at home.
4 MS GIBSON: Did she give an explanation for why she stayed
5 at home?
6 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she did not feel well.
7 MS GIBSON: Did she tell you what was wrong with her?
8 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she said quite simply that she was not
9 well and so I did not ask any further.
10 MS GIBSON: Did she tell you on this occasion anything about
11 the child's bad behaviour?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No.
13 MS GIBSON: You say in your statement that at some stage
14 before you met Victoria, Mrs Kouao had said that she was
15 quite small for her age, and had explained about her bad
16 behaviour. Do you remember that?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That is what she told me, yes.
18 MS GIBSON: What did she say about the child's behaviour?
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That she was incontinent and that she did
20 strange things.
21 MS GIBSON: What sort of strange things?
22 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I think it was at that time that she
23 told me she would put the toothbrush -- toothbrushes in
24 the toilet.
25 MS GIBSON: When she said that she was incontinent, did she
112
1 mean of urine and faeces or just urine?
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, both things.
3 MS GIBSON: This was before the occasion when you met
4 Victoria?
5 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, it was definitely before.
6 MS GIBSON: Did you form the impression that from what she
7 described about the child and her behaviour, that Kouao
8 was quite frustrated with the way this child behaved?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes. Afterwards, yes.
10 MS GIBSON: Did you get the impression that perhaps she did
11 not very much like this child?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I did.
13 MS GIBSON: Did she speak a lot about her problems with the
14 child?
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she spoke quite often when she came to
16 the house and she spoke often about it when she phoned.
17 MS GIBSON: Did you find the things that she described about
18 the child's behaviour with the toothbrush and the fact
19 that she was doubly incontinent, did you find this very
20 unusual?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, it was disturbing.
22 MS GIBSON: Shocking even?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, exactly.
24 MS GIBSON: When you first saw Victoria, what impression did
25 you form of the child?
113
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, effectively, indeed as she told us the
2 child was small.
3 MS GIBSON: We know that your daughter was nine then. What
4 sort of age of child did Victoria look to you in
5 comparison?
6 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It is as if she were a little girl of about
7 six.
8 MS GIBSON: Again, this must have shocked you, given that
9 according to Kouao she was the same age as your
10 nine-year-old child?
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I was disturbed. I was shocked.
12 MS GIBSON: When you saw her, she had burns on her face?
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she did.
14 MS GIBSON: Did she explain to you then how those burns had
15 been caused?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she told me it was the babysitter who
17 had done that.
18 MS GIBSON: Did you believe her when she said this?
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, I did believe that.
20 MS GIBSON: Did she suggest that the babysitter had done
21 this deliberately?
22 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she did not say she did it deliberately.
23 She said she did it by accident, by carelessness.
24 MS GIBSON: Did she describe to you how the babysitter had
25 done it?
114
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I did not really understand. It was
2 something to do with hot water being run in the bathroom
3 and the young girl not waiting to get in.
4 MS GIBSON: You said that on that second meeting, that Kouao
5 had told you about the child doing something with
6 a toothbrush. What was it that she described to you?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she did that in Paris as well.
8 MS GIBSON: She described that she did this a lot, that it
9 had been a continuing thing since she was in Paris?
10 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, that is what she told us. Yes.
11 MS GIBSON: Was it the case that what she told you was that
12 she would put the toilet brush into excrement and smear
13 it about?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she did not, she just said that she
15 would put the brush into the excrement.
16 MS GIBSON: Are you quite clear about that, that she never
17 talked about smearing?
18 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She spoke to me to such a great extent about
19 this young girl that I really did not take too much
20 notice of that.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms Gibson, could we just pause a moment,
22 please?
23 MS GIBSON: Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: We will arrange for Mrs Kimbidima to have
25 a microphone also.
115
1 Thank you very much.
2 MS GIBSON: Yes. You were saying she spoke about this
3 a lot?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: About what?
5 MS GIBSON: About the child's behaviour, in particular this
6 bit about the ...
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: You mean about when it took place in Paris?
8 MS GIBSON: Firstly that, yes.
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: All she said to us simply was that she used
10 to do that in Paris.
11 MS GIBSON: And what about when she was in London? Did she
12 also behave this way?
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she did not tell us whether she had done
14 that in London.
15 MS GIBSON: Did she say though that the child continued to
16 have problems of being incontinent?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she did.
18 MS GIBSON: Is it the position that really, whenever you met
19 Marie-Therese, she was always talking about the child
20 and the problems she was giving her?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, that is true, and spoke about it, yes.
22 MS GIBSON: What was the child's behaviour like when
23 you were looking after her?
24 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She was calm when she was around on her own
25 without her mother.
116
1 MS GIBSON: And did not behave at all in the way that Kouao
2 had described?
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, no.
4 MS GIBSON: Did she ever urinate at your house, not in the
5 bathroom?
6 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she did once in the bedroom.
7 MS GIBSON: Just once, or did she often have accidents like
8 that?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Twice. Twice.
10 MS GIBSON: Was she ever incontinent of faeces in your
11 house?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No. Often with urine but not with anything
13 else.
14 MS GIBSON: What was her behaviour like generally when
15 she was with you?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She was quite at ease. She would ask me if
17 she could eat something.
18 MS GIBSON: Would you describe her as a quiet child,
19 a well-behaved child, or was she very noisy and playful?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She did not do very much. She was very
21 calm.
22 MS GIBSON: Did she talk very much?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No.
24 MS GIBSON: She stayed with you on several occasions,
25 I think?
117
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Sometimes, perhaps two or three times.
2 MS GIBSON: And this was when Kouao went out shopping?
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, to go shopping and also to look for
4 employment.
5 MS GIBSON: What sort of employment did she tell you that
6 she was looking for?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She told me she was going to the job centre
8 but she did not tell me what sort of work she was
9 seeking.
10 MS GIBSON: Do you remember her telling you that in France
11 she had worked as an airport manager?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she did. She worked at Roissy Airport.
13 MS GIBSON: Did she describe to you what her job had been
14 there?
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she did not. I think she told my
16 husband though.
17 MS GIBSON: Did she give you the impression that she had
18 been a successful person in France?
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, that is the impression.
20 MS GIBSON: Did she explain to you why she had chosen to
21 come to England?
22 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, not at all.
23 MS GIBSON: Did she have more conversation with your husband
24 than with you?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, she did.
118
1 MS GIBSON: Did you form the impression that she liked your
2 husband, that she was being flirtatious with him?
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No. No.
4 MS GIBSON: You were describing before what Victoria's
5 behaviour was like with you, and I think you said it
6 changed when Kouao came to your house?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. For example, if I gave her something
8 to eat, as soon as her mother arrived she would not eat
9 any more.
10 MS GIBSON: Did you get the impression that the child was
11 frightened of her?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I did indeed.
13 MS GIBSON: Did the little girl ever talk to you about the
14 person that you assumed was her mother?
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No. No, she said nothing about that.
16 MS GIBSON: Did you speak in French together at the home?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, we did. French.
18 MS GIBSON: You knew that the girl had come from Africa, did
19 you?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I did. Marie-Therese told me.
21 MS GIBSON: Was there ever any discussion with her about
22 what life had been like while she was living in Africa?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No.
24 MS GIBSON: Did the child ever speak to you or chat to you
25 about anything?
119
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: About children's things she spoke often with
2 my daughter.
3 MS GIBSON: Did she play well with your daughter?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, not very.
5 MS GIBSON: When your children were playing at home, what
6 did she do?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Her mother had told her that she should
8 always go and sit in the corner, and that is what she
9 did.
10 MS GIBSON: So she just sat quietly there all day while
11 she was staying?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she did. She got up only if I said,
13 "Come and have something to eat", or if she got up to go
14 to the toilet.
15 MS GIBSON: Did you not think that she should be allowed to
16 play and enjoy herself when she was staying?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, because her mother had told her very
18 firmly that, when she came to us, she should sit in the
19 corner.
20 MS GIBSON: So you were just acting on the mother's
21 instructions, would you say?
22 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, that is it.
23 MS GIBSON: Do your children behave like that at home? Do
24 you make them sit still all the time?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, not at all.
120
1 MS GIBSON: So did you not think, "We will ignore that then
2 and it is okay, you can play"?
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: What really could I have done else?
4 MS GIBSON: It must have been very concerning for you, the
5 fact that this child looked so much younger than the age
6 that you thought she was --
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
8 MS GIBSON: -- the mother was saying she did all these
9 dreadful things and that she had to sit there in the
10 corner quietly?
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, that worried us.
12 MS GIBSON: Did you think that this child was being
13 mistreated by the mother?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I thought: well, perhaps it is just the way
15 they live. Perhaps that is their way of carrying on.
16 MS GIBSON: You say in your statement that generally
17 Marie-Therese did not take much notice of the child.
18 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It depends. Sometimes, depending on -- some
19 days she was good, some days she was bad.
20 MS GIBSON: Is this the child she is talking about or the
21 mother?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Of the child.
23 MS GIBSON: I am asking you about the way the mother behaved
24 towards the child.
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: All the time she was shouting at the child
121
1 and she told the child, "Do this", or, "Do not do that".
2 MS GIBSON: Did you get the impression that she really
3 disliked the child?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I could not say that she really disliked the
5 child, as it was her own child, her natural child.
6 MS GIBSON: But from what you have said, she never showed
7 any warmth towards this child; always shouting at her?
8 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she did not show very much affection to
9 the child.
10 MS GIBSON: You are a mother yourself, I think of three
11 children?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
13 MS GIBSON: You must have been very worried about this
14 little girl?
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, it did, it disturbed me.
16 MS GIBSON: Did it never occur to you to contact the social
17 services?
18 MRS KIMBIDIMA: You see, the first time she told me it was
19 her own daughter and I could not think that she could do
20 harm to her own daughter.
21 MS GIBSON: Did you say that you had never seen her beating
22 the child?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Never.
24 MS GIBSON: Given everything you have just described, this
25 is hardly a normal relationship between this woman and
122
1 child.
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It was an abnormal relationship. She
3 shouted at the child all the time.
4 MS GIBSON: You must be aware that children can suffer not
5 just from physical blows but from being ignored and
6 shouted at?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes.
8 MS GIBSON: So why not contact either the police or the
9 social services to protect this little girl?
10 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Well, I did not -- I considered that that
11 was abnormal, it was their way of life, it was the way
12 they lived, always shouting at the child. It was just
13 words.
14 MS GIBSON: Sir, I wonder if that would be a convenient
15 moment because I am going to move on to different
16 subjects now with this witness.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: That is thoughtful of you, Ms Gibson. Thank
18 you very much indeed. It would be convenient.
19 Mrs Kimbidima, you have a problem over lunch in that
20 you are under oath and you are not allowed to discuss
21 your evidence. That, of course, includes your husband.
22 I hope that you will find a way to achieve that.
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, we will adjourn until
25 1.50. Thank you very much.
123
1 (1.00 pm)
2 (Luncheon adjournment)
3 (1.50 pm)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms Gibson. Mrs Kimbidima, although
5 I appreciate you are talking through the interpreter, it
6 might also help if you could just keep your voice up
7 a bit, please. Thank you.
8 MS GIBSON: Thank you Mrs Kimbidima. If we could continue.
9 You were mentioning in your evidence previously that you
10 did not contact the social services at that stage.
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, that is correct.
12 MS GIBSON: What course of action, if any, were you planning
13 to take about this child and her problems?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I believe that the social services were
15 already aware of this business because Marie-Therese had
16 already spoken to me about the social services'
17 involvement.
18 MS GIBSON: Is it not the position that what she was talking
19 about was the social services dealing with her housing
20 issues?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Not that I understood it too well but I am
22 sure it was both things; the question of accommodation
23 but also a problem with Carl. She was having a problem
24 with Carl at that time.
25 MS GIBSON: And what was your understanding of that problem,
124
1 that it was?
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: This is a problem which she discussed at
3 great length with my husband, that to the effect that
4 Carl had shown his penis to the child.
5 MS GIBSON: Was it your impression that your husband
6 believed what she was saying about this?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, I do not think he did believe it because
8 at the time the child, in front of us, while she was at
9 our house, had asked, begged pardon of Carl, apologised
10 to Carl for this allegation.
11 MS GIBSON: I will ask you some more about that, because
12 I think that comes a little bit later in the story, but
13 at this stage, after you had met -- you had seen
14 Victoria for the first time, which was some time after
15 your daughter's birthday?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That was quite a long time after the
17 birthday party.
18 MS GIBSON: That you saw Victoria for the first time?
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Quite a long time afterwards.
20 MS GIBSON: Can you estimate how long; how many weeks?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It is a long while ago. I do not think
22 I could recall precisely.
23 MS GIBSON: Can you try and just give us your best
24 recollection?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Perhaps about three weeks.
125
1 MS GIBSON: In between the birthday and that time when you
2 first saw Victoria, did you see Kouao on her own at all?
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she came to us. She came quite often
4 to us.
5 MS GIBSON: About how often in the average week would she
6 come and see you?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: About twice a week.
8 MS GIBSON: About how many times do you think you had seen
9 her on her own, before you saw her with the child?
10 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Several times, several times I saw her
11 without the child.
12 MS GIBSON: I just want to be clear about this because the
13 impression from your statement is that you saw her once,
14 when you discussed her coming to the birthday, and then
15 another time when she came to the birthday, and then the
16 third time was when she came with Victoria.
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I thought you were speaking about the times,
18 the occasions she was on her own.
19 MS GIBSON: The child on her own, does she mean?
20 THE INTERPRETER: No, the mother on her own.
21 MS GIBSON: I just wanted to establish how many times before
22 she came with the child.
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I should think possibly four times.
24 MS GIBSON: Did you not wonder where the child was at this
25 time?
126
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she told me she was at home.
2 MS GIBSON: When she came before you saw Victoria, was she
3 with the man?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: On that day she was accompanied by Carl,
5 yes.
6 MS GIBSON: Which day does she mean?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: The day when she came with the child.
8 MS GIBSON: When she came without the child, when she said
9 the child was home, did she explain who the child was
10 left with?
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she did not.
12 MS GIBSON: Did you discuss the problem that Victoria had
13 with her incontinence with Kouao?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It is such a long time ago, you understand.
15 MS GIBSON: Did you ever advise her that she should take the
16 child to see a doctor?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she told us that she had already been
18 to the doctor with the child.
19 MS GIBSON: Did she tell you what the doctor had said about
20 what the child's problem was?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Apparently she told us that when she took
22 the child to the doctors, the child behaved very badly
23 and made it very difficult and the doctor told her that
24 this is something that would go away in the fullness of
25 time.
127
1 MS GIBSON: Did Kouao ever talk to you about Victoria being
2 possessed?
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That is what she told us, yes.
4 MS GIBSON: What sort of things did she say about this?
5 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She did not tell us a great deal.
6 MS GIBSON: But is it right that she put the child's bad
7 behaviour that she had described down to the fact that
8 she was possessed with evil spirits?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That is what she thought, yes.
10 MS GIBSON: Did you think also that this might be the case?
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, we just listened and we agreed. We just
12 listened.
13 MS GIBSON: You listened and you agreed. Did you agree
14 because you believed this?
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No. Just to be polite, whilst listening.
16 MS GIBSON: Did your husband believe this?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No. No.
18 MS GIBSON: Can you explain, then, why your husband took
19 Victoria to the church with him?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Marie-Therese wanted my husband to take her
21 to the church to say prayers for her.
22 MS GIBSON: When you were looking after Victoria on her own,
23 what was Victoria's manner like when she had to go back
24 to Marie-Therese?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: What can I say to you about that? I do not
128
1 really know what to say to that. When her mother came
2 to pick her up she went with her mother.
3 MS GIBSON: Did she seem pleased to see her or not?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I think so, yes.
5 MS GIBSON: You mentioned that at some point Marie-Therese's
6 son came from France with a niece and two other girls.
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
8 MS GIBSON: That was for the Notting Hill Carnival.
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: It was.
10 MS GIBSON: So that would be right at the end of August?
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, yes it was.
12 MS GIBSON: When they stayed with you, we know that you saw
13 Marie-Therese with her son. Was her behaviour different
14 towards him than it was to the child you knew as Anna?
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. I really did notice that it was
16 different.
17 MS GIBSON: In what way different?
18 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Well, the manner in which they spoke
19 together. They spoke together but she did not speak at
20 all to Anna.
21 MS GIBSON: Was Marie-Therese's behaviour different towards
22 the son as compared to the daughter?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, the son was always around his
24 mother. As she had not seen him for so long, they were
25 always around each other, together.
129
1 MS GIBSON: So is it fair to say that she seemed more loving
2 towards the son than the harsh behaviour you have
3 described towards Victoria?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That is it, exactly.
5 MS GIBSON: At that stage were you aware that Victoria was
6 not Marie-Therese's natural daughter?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, I lost that.
8 MS GIBSON: At that stage when the son was over for the
9 Notting Hill Carnival did she know that Victoria was not
10 Marie-Therese's natural daughter?
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: After the son and the nieces left she told
12 me, she revealed to me that the girl was not her natural
13 daughter.
14 MS GIBSON: Did she reveal that to you in front of the
15 child?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes, she did.
17 MS GIBSON: What was the child's reaction to this?
18 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She cried. She was crying.
19 MS GIBSON: In what way did she say that the child was not
20 her natural daughter? Did she seem angry with the child
21 at the time?
22 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she was not angry. She said simply that
23 it was the daughter of her sister who had died.
24 MS GIBSON: What did you think of saying this in front of
25 the child and making the child cry in this way?
130
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, in fact I spoke to the child. The
2 child said to me, "I am crying." I said, "Why are you
3 crying?" She said "I am crying because my secret has
4 been revealed".
5 MS GIBSON: Do you not agree though that it is not a very
6 kind or caring thing for a person to tell other people
7 that this is not my daughter?
8 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, I was not happy with that. I should
9 have reproached her for it. Personally, I was not happy
10 that she did that.
11 MS GIBSON: You say that by this stage, by the time you
12 learned that she was not the natural mother, that you
13 were beginning to be suspicious about Marie-Therese.
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, that is true.
15 MS GIBSON: What were you beginning to suspect about her?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I was thinking that this is not a woman in
17 which you could have any kind of trust because she said
18 one thing one time, one thing another.
19 MS GIBSON: What was her manner like towards you? Was she
20 polite, or not?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she was polite. I always found her
22 polite.
23 MS GIBSON: Was she not annoyed when you said that you could
24 not look after Victoria when she wanted to go to France?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: When she asked me to do that?
131
1 MS GIBSON: Yes.
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She asked me to do that and I said no and
3 yes she was angry. She was very angry.
4 MS GIBSON: Can you describe her anger?
5 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she left and then she did not call me
6 for two days and she told me that, "You have to be
7 careful if you look after her, when she goes to the
8 toilet and everything".
9 MS GIBSON: At this point I want you to clarify something.
10 You were saying before that when she went to the toilet
11 she would smear her excrement around using a brush.
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. That worried me. I could not look
13 after a child like that.
14 MS GIBSON: What sort of brush did she tell you that she did
15 this with? Was it the toilet brush or a toothbrush, or
16 what?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: A toothbrush.
18 MS GIBSON: In your statement you talk about a toilet brush.
19 Is that a confusion, or ...?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, I actually said brush. At the time
21 I actually just said brush.
22 MS GIBSON: What was Marie-Therese's reaction when you
23 suggested to her that she should think about sending
24 Victoria back to the Ivory Coast if she was having so
25 many problems?
132
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: After we had suggested to her that she go
2 back, she said she must go to France. This is
3 Marie-Therese must go to France to renew her passport.
4 Then after that she went to France with the child.
5 MS GIBSON: Was that because you would not look after the
6 child while she went?
7 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
8 MS GIBSON: What was her reaction, though, to your
9 suggestion that she consider sending the child back to
10 the Ivory Coast?
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Well, in front of us she accepted to do
12 that. She agreed to do that.
13 MS GIBSON: But do you think you could rely on her to do
14 that?
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Afterwards she told us that she could not
16 send her back because she did so many bad things that
17 nobody back there wanted her either.
18 MS GIBSON: By this stage what sort of impression had you
19 formed about Marie-Therese? Did you think she was
20 a truthful person?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I discussed this with my husband and
22 I suggested that we break off our friendship because
23 this is not a woman you could trust. In fact a woman of
24 many lies.
25 MS GIBSON: Did you form this view before she started to
133
1 talk about the sexual abuse allegations?
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. It was after she told us that it was
3 not her natural daughter that I said this.
4 MS GIBSON: Did your husband take the same view of her?
5 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, my husband said, "No, this is a woman
6 who likes to pray and I like to pray and that is the
7 connection we have with her. That is the liaison we
8 have with her".
9 MS GIBSON: So is it the position that you had to go along
10 with your husband's view on this?
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, I stood my ground. I said, "No,
12 I cannot be getting along with a woman like that".
13 MS GIBSON: Is it right that you argued about this together?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, we did.
15 MS GIBSON: What was the outcome? Who won the argument?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, I think I won that. I think I won the
17 argument and I said in any case you have to be careful
18 in life who you associate with.
19 MS GIBSON: Later came a stage when she began to speak to
20 your husband about allegations of sexual abuse.
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she did. She discussed with my
22 husband. She would call him quite late at night
23 sometimes.
24 MS GIBSON: She spoke more about this to your husband than
25 to you?
134
1 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
2 MS GIBSON: Did you think it was appropriate for her to be
3 discussing that with your husband?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, because I did not want to have anything
5 more to do with it. I said to him every day, "What you
6 do is what you do. I do not want anything more to do
7 with this".
8 MS GIBSON: Did you, at that stage, form any view about
9 these allegations that she was making about the sexual
10 abuse?
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No. As I said, it was my husband who was
12 involved in that. He even went and spent a night over
13 there.
14 MS GIBSON: Well, this is fairly unusual stuff for someone
15 to be making sexual abuse allegations. Presumably you
16 and your husband discussed this together?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Social Services were already aware of
18 this and in fact they phoned me and asked me whether
19 I could give shelter, if I could look after Victoria.
20 MS GIBSON: That is going ahead a little bit because there
21 were several allegations before Social Services
22 contacted you.
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No. I had the impression that the
24 social services were aware of this from the moment it
25 started.
135
1 MS GIBSON: What gave you that impression?
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Because Marie-Therese told us that she had
3 already been to Social Services.
4 MS GIBSON: About these allegations?
5 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
6 MS GIBSON: You do not mention that in your statement. It
7 is only after she had actually seen the thing herself
8 that she went to Social Services.
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Perhaps my husband did it, then, because he
10 was the one who was involved in this.
11 MS GIBSON: But it is not right, is it, that Social Services
12 knew about this before the time when Marie-Therese
13 phoned you or your husband to say that she had actually
14 seen the abuse happening with her own eyes?
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, she definitely went to them before that.
16 MS GIBSON: This is what she was telling you?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she told me that.
18 MS GIBSON: But you have already said that you thought she
19 was a very unreliable person, who told lies.
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I could not say whether it was lies or not.
21 That is what she said.
22 MS GIBSON: There was one occasion when she brought Victoria
23 round to your house to talk to your husband about one of
24 the abuse allegations. Why do you think she did that?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I do not know. I do not know what to say to
136
1 that. Perhaps it is because she only knew us and there
2 was nobody else, she had no other acquaintances.
3 MS GIBSON: On that occasion she made Victoria kneel down in
4 front of Manning and apologise for making up these
5 allegations.
6 MRS KIMBIDIMA: My husband said, "This is not a good thing
7 you have done" to Victoria. "If it is not true, you
8 should go and kneel down and apologise to Carl."
9 MS GIBSON: So it was your husband who suggested she should
10 do that or was it Marie-Therese?
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I think it is my husband.
12 MS GIBSON: Did you think this was an appropriate way to
13 react to this, to make a child kneel in front of
14 someone?
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Well, you know, within families I have found
16 that relatively normal; to ask somebody's pardon.
17 MS GIBSON: So are you seriously saying it is quite normal
18 to ask a child to kneel down in front of an adult and
19 say, "Sorry"?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: People do that. That is -- people do
21 apologise like that.
22 MS GIBSON: Were you not, by this stage, very concerned
23 about this child who was with this woman who seemed not
24 to care for her?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I was.
137
1 MS GIBSON: What were you going to do about this?
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: In our opinion it would be better for
3 Marie-Therese to have found a flat and to have left
4 Carl.
5 MS GIBSON: But from what you have said, Carl was not such
6 the source of the problem. From what you had witnessed,
7 it was the woman herself and the way she behaved towards
8 the child?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: In a case like that you do not know who to
10 blame.
11 MS GIBSON: So it could have been one of them or both of
12 them?
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I do not know what to say to that. I think
14 it would have been best for them to have split up, to
15 leave each other.
16 MS GIBSON: But you already described the fact that the
17 woman was harsh towards the child.
18 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I did.
19 MS GIBSON: Made her sit still while she was with you.
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Every mother, every parent has his or her
21 own way of bringing up their children.
22 MS GIBSON: But sometimes that can become unacceptable, can
23 it not?
24 MRS KIMBIDIMA: You know, it is like a question of smacking
25 children. I cannot really give other people advice on
138
1 how to bring up their children.
2 MS GIBSON: But it is right that by this stage you had
3 a child about whom the person, Marie-Therese, was saying
4 that she behaved in extreme ways, that she was harsh
5 towards her, the child was quiet and sat still in
6 a corner when she stayed with you. You must have been
7 very worried about this child.
8 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I was concerned and for the whole
9 family.
10 MS GIBSON: Because what you observed about Victoria and
11 Marie-Therese and their relationship was a long way
12 outside normal, was it not?
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, yes it was.
14 MS GIBSON: Did you not feel that in those circumstances you
15 had a responsibility to do something about this?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: From the beginning I thought the solution
17 was, if life was difficult like this the solution would
18 be to repatriate the child.
19 MS GIBSON: But that was not happening, so how were you
20 going to protect this child?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I do not know, I do not know what else
22 I could have done.
23 MS GIBSON: One possibility was to phone police,
24 social services. Why did you not take that course?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I do not speak very good English and from
139
1 the first I said I did not want to get involved with
2 this problem. I did not want to get involved with this
3 problem.
4 MS GIBSON: You do not speak good English but your husband
5 does, so why not ask him?
6 MRS KIMBIDIMA: As we had not seen her do anything obviously
7 violent towards this child, what could we have said to
8 the social services? What could we have told them?
9 MS GIBSON: That she was treating this child in a very poor
10 way. She was being very harsh towards the child.
11 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I still do not see what I personally could
12 have done.
13 MS GIBSON: Just looking now at what happened on the day she
14 made an allegation about actually having seen sexual
15 abuse. Did she tell this story to you or to your
16 husband?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I told you that Marie-Therese had already
18 gone to the social services and to the police about this
19 and that Carl was in fact being investigated by the
20 police.
21 MS GIBSON: What I am talking about is the day when she
22 called you up and said that she had seen it happen with
23 her own eyes.
24 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That was a long time afterwards. The police
25 were already well aware of the situation before that.
140
1 MS GIBSON: Well, it was on that day that she went to see
2 the social services, to tell them.
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she called us up at night and she said,
4 "Yes, I have seen this indecency with my own eyes" and
5 it was the following day she went to the
6 social services.
7 MS GIBSON: But before that she had been talking to you, the
8 time when Victoria knelt in front of Carl to apologise,
9 that had all happened before this time?
10 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, and that day also she went to the
11 social services.
12 MS GIBSON: That is the first time that the social services
13 were involved about the sexual abuse?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes.
15 MS GIBSON: Did she describe what she had seen herself to
16 you or to your husband?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, you are going to have to ask that
18 question of my husband because she did not discuss it
19 with me.
20 MS GIBSON: Were you there when your husband was telephoned?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, I was.
22 MS GIBSON: What did you understand from him had happened?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: On that occasion when she phoned, she phoned
24 us and the only things I could hear were her screams,
25 her shouting because when she was very angry that is
141
1 what she did, she shouted.
2 MS GIBSON: Was she often when you saw her in an angry
3 state?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she was often like that. She was often
5 very angry.
6 MS GIBSON: Did you form the view that she was perhaps
7 a little bit crazy?
8 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. I really did believe that. I often
9 said that to my husband. The day she came to tell us
10 about these things I said to him, "This is a person who
11 is not quite right".
12 MS GIBSON: So did you think she was mentally ill?
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I would not say she was mad. I would not
14 use the word mad, but she was definitely possibly
15 deranged with all the problems that she was going
16 through.
17 MS GIBSON: So you must have been very worried about
18 Victoria in the care of this person who seemed deranged?
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, inasmuch as she suffered. She
20 suffered.
21 MS GIBSON: During that day after she had told your husband
22 about having seen the sexual abuse, you were telephoned
23 by a social worker.
24 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. Yes they did. Okay, yes.
25 MS GIBSON: Do you remember the social worker asking you
142
1 whether Victoria and Kouao -- or and Marie-Therese could
2 stay until after the abuse allegations were
3 investigated?
4 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she asked me that. Yes.
5 MS GIBSON: Did you agree, at that stage?
6 MRS KIMBIDIMA: At the time I said yes but afterwards ...
7 MS GIBSON: Were you able to understand what the social
8 worker was saying? Presumably she was speaking to you
9 in English.
10 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, they must have been interpreted.
11 Someone spoke to me in French.
12 MS GIBSON: It seems that from what the social worker has
13 said that Marie-Therese herself spoke to you first
14 before the social worker came on the line. Do you think
15 that is maybe what happened?
16 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, I do not think so. It was the
17 social services who had an interpreter with them.
18 MS GIBSON: I do not think that that was the case.
19 Social Services' records do not show that there was any
20 interpreter there.
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: How would I have understood the conversation
22 on telephone if it had not have been the case?
23 MS GIBSON: By this stage did you speak a little bit of
24 English?
25 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, there was definitely someone there next
143
1 to the social services who had some words of French who
2 spoke to me. Marie-Therese was also next to me and as
3 she did not speak much English either she also
4 understood.
5 MS GIBSON: These events are quite a long time ago. Do you
6 think you might be mistaken and it was just
7 Marie-Therese and the social worker?
8 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, Marie-Therese did not speak to them. It
9 was definitely someone who spoke French because I asked
10 them in French how long would this be, how long would it
11 take.
12 MS GIBSON: Marie-Therese speaks French so maybe it was her
13 you were speaking to then?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, I did not speak to Marie-Therese.
15 MS GIBSON: What was your understanding then at that stage
16 about how long it was going to take?
17 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Well, that she should come to me for at
18 least six months.
19 MS GIBSON: And you understood that the purpose or the
20 reason was because of the sexual abuse allegations?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes.
22 MS GIBSON: And at that stage you agreed on the telephone?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, as soon as I picked up the phone
24 without putting it to my husband I said yes.
25 MS GIBSON: Is it right that Victoria and Kouao arrived
144
1 later on that day, following your discussion with the
2 social worker?
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. She came to me. She left Anna,
4 Victoria, with me. She then went back to get her
5 suitcase and her possessions. In the meantime my
6 husband phoned me and I explained the situation to him
7 and he said, "No, we cannot do this".
8 MS GIBSON: Then is it the position that your husband came
9 back later and took Victoria back to Kouao?
10 MRS KIMBIDIMA: My husband first of all, realising that
11 Marie-Therese did not have any accommodation, went
12 around some different hotels and tried to find
13 accommodation for her. When he was unable to do so he
14 took the child back to Marie-Therese, who was with Carl.
15 MS GIBSON: Do you remember the social worker making
16 a second call later on that evening to see if Kouao and
17 Victoria had arrived?
18 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, they did not. Nothing like that, not
19 even during the week either.
20 MS GIBSON: Well, the position is that the social worker
21 remembers being told that Marie-Therese had gone back to
22 Manning's to collect his belongings.
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No. No, we do not even have the phone
24 number to tell them.
25 MS GIBSON: This is not you calling them, this is the social
145
1 worker calling you.
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No. No.
3 MS GIBSON: Do you think you might be wrong about that,
4 because the social worker remembers being told that
5 Marie-Therese had gone back to collect luggage or
6 belongings from Carl's. There is no way she could have
7 known that unless she had spoken to you.
8 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Never called me, never called me at the
9 home. Because we were asking ourselves, "How are we
10 going to solve this problem?"
11 MS GIBSON: This was just the same evening that this call
12 took place. Is it possible you have forgotten it
13 because it is a long time ago?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I am not mistaken. They did not -- they
15 never called me that evening.
16 MS GIBSON: You must have been very concerned by this time
17 about Victoria because the social services thought that
18 she was staying with you until you decided that that was
19 not possible. You knew there was an allegation of
20 sexual abuse?
21 MRS KIMBIDIMA: As I have already explained to you before,
22 I really did not want to be involved in this problem.
23 What could I do? Really, what could I do?
24 MS GIBSON: Well one thing you could have done was to
25 telephone Social Services or get your husband to
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1 telephone them.
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I did not have the telephone number to call
3 these people and they could easily have left us that
4 number to call them back, but she did not.
5 MS GIBSON: Well, Mrs Kimbidima, that is a bit of a weak
6 excuse. You could have gone to the social services
7 office, you could have called the police, you could have
8 called up Directory Inquiries.
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: That would be getting involved in other
10 people's business since the social services were already
11 involved in this case.
12 MS GIBSON: But as far as the social services were concerned
13 at that point the child and Marie-Therese were staying
14 with you and they were safe away from Manning.
15 MRS KIMBIDIMA: They did not call back to ask whether she
16 was still there. She was out looking for accommodation.
17 She knew she had no alternative accommodation.
18 MS GIBSON: Yes, but they thought she was staying with you,
19 did they not?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I do not think they did. They were fully
21 aware that she had gone back to Carl.
22 MS GIBSON: How do you come to that view?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Because the police were already following
24 Carl.
25 MS GIBSON: In what way do you mean the police were
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1 following Carl?
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: How can I say to you, they followed him even
3 by phone, in case there was a problem that needed
4 sorting out.
5 MS GIBSON: So at what time are you talking about the police
6 following Carl by phone? Is this after the sexual abuse
7 allegation?
8 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Because Marie-Therese told us, she told us
9 that because of this great problem Carl was being
10 monitored. He was being followed by the police. She
11 told us that.
12 MS GIBSON: So were you in fairly regular communication with
13 Marie-Therese after she left your house?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes. She called me often using the mobile
15 phone because she said she did not want to phone from
16 the house telephone, which was being part of this
17 surveillance by the police.
18 MS GIBSON: So she thought she was being bugged by the
19 police?
20 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I do not know exactly how that would be done
21 or how it was done but there must be a way of doing that
22 and that is the sort of thing the police do.
23 MS GIBSON: Did you think that you could rely on what she
24 was saying, given what you have already said about
25 Marie-Therese and the fact that you thought she was
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1 a bit deranged?
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Well, yes I used to listen to what she was
3 saying. Listen sometimes without believing.
4 MS GIBSON: But it is very worrying, is it not, that this
5 woman who tells you all these lies who you have seen
6 being harsh to a child and who has been making
7 allegations of sexual abuse, be they true or not, is in
8 charge of looking after this little girl?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: The fact that she went back to Carl made me
10 think that perhaps these allegations were not true after
11 all, and I did not attach that much importance to them.
12 MS GIBSON: You say that they were not true after all. Did
13 you believe them at first?
14 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No. From the beginning I asked myself, "Is
15 it true or is it not true?"
16 MS GIBSON: Given that there was even a possibility that it
17 might be true, you surely had a duty to protect this
18 child and make sure that Social Services were involved?
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: By what means?
20 MS GIBSON: What would you do if you were out walking in the
21 street and you saw someone hitting a child with a stick?
22 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I would tell them to stop.
23 MS GIBSON: And what if the person did not stop?
24 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Then I would shout for help.
25 MS GIBSON: And would you at some point think if that person
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1 was in charge of a child it would be appropriate for you
2 to go to the police or the social services?
3 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Given that the police were already involved
4 and the social services were already involved, what was
5 I to do?
6 MS GIBSON: That was only what this unreliable woman told
7 you.
8 MRS KIMBIDIMA: The first time I really did think that she
9 was not right in her head was the day that she came to
10 me with Anna.
11 MS GIBSON: The very first day?
12 MRS KIMBIDIMA: No, the day she came to the house to ask me
13 to look after Anna. Just something in the way she spoke
14 and behaved worried me.
15 MS GIBSON: You mean the day she came after Social Services
16 had called you or when you were looking after Anna
17 during the day before that?
18 MRS KIMBIDIMA: The day before she went to France. It was
19 the first day I noticed she was a bit deranged the way
20 she was speaking and carrying on.
21 MS GIBSON: Can you describe what it was that made you think
22 that?
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: First of all the way she was dressed.
24 Secondly, the way she spoke.
25 MS GIBSON: Firstly, what was it about the way she was
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1 dressed?
2 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Well, given that it was hot -- it was the
3 summer, it was hot -- yet she was dressed in boots and
4 a long African skirt. She spoke in such a way -- I do
5 not know how to describe it -- you can see the
6 difference between somebody who is normal and who is not
7 when they are speaking.
8 MS GIBSON: Was she speaking quickly?
9 MRS KIMBIDIMA: She was speaking very quickly, very
10 excitedly and then when she went out to leave she was
11 actually talking to herself then, at that point.
12 MS GIBSON: Talking to herself about what?
13 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Yes, she was talking to herself. She said,
14 "Just for one week, only a week. Just one week".
15 MS GIBSON: Did you not think that when Social Services
16 spoke to you on the 1st November, after the sexual abuse
17 allegation, that you should tell them all your worries
18 about this woman?
19 MRS KIMBIDIMA: I do not remember that. I do not remember
20 about that. They only phoned me once, Social Services.
21 MS GIBSON: But that was an ideal opportunity to tell them
22 about your worries about this child.
23 MRS KIMBIDIMA: Marie-Therese was there at the
24 social services with the child and they just phoned me
25 up to ask me whether I would accommodate them.
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