|
Archived Transcript for 6 December 2001:
Pages 51 to 100
51
1 MS GIBSON: You, certainly from your evidence at the
2 criminal trial, formed the view that Victoria was in
3 such a state?
4 MR LIMA: Yes. You know, I said possession but as I am
5 saying, there are different kinds of possession.
6 MS GIBSON: No, but your plan was to pray and fast --
7 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
8 MS GIBSON: -- because you thought she was possessed?
9 MR LIMA: Yes, I thought; I did not -- had, you know,
10 a clue -- I was not 100 per cent sure. That is why
11 I was going to pray and fast.
12 MS GIBSON: So the position is that you allowed your belief
13 in the fact that your prayer and fasting could --
14 MR LIMA: Could help.
15 MS GIBSON: -- relieve her of her problems to get in the way
16 of actually directing her to the appropriate
17 authorities, the medical authorities and social
18 services?
19 MR LIMA: That is why I gave one week for me to see what
20 would happen.
21 MS GIBSON: It is very dangerous to allow a one-week period
22 with a child who might be quite seriously ill.
23 MR LIMA: I could not see what was happening, that is why.
24 MS GIBSON: Thank you. Thank you, sir.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms Gibson. Thank you, Mr Lima.
52
1 MR LIMA: Yes.
2 MS GIBSON: Sir, Mr Sheldon will take the next witness.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Sheldon?
4 MR SHELDON: Thank you, sir. Audrey Hartley-Martin, please.
5 MS AUDREY HARTLEY-MARTIN (affirmed)
6 MR SHELDON: Good morning.
7 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Good morning.
8 MR SHELDON: Could you give me your full name, please?
9 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: My name is Audrey Vivienne
10 Hartley-Martin.
11 MR SHELDON: You have produced a statement for use by this
12 Inquiry, a copy of which I think is in front of you.
13 Could you have a look at the last page of it, please.
14 Is that your signature at the bottom?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It is.
16 MR SHELDON: Are the facts and matters in that statement
17 true?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: Sir, for your note that is in volume 7 of the
20 green files, at page 106. Miss Hartley-Martin also made
21 a statement to the Crown Prosecution Service and that is
22 in volume 46, page 95.501, and the transcript of her
23 evidence at the Old Bailey starts at page 80 in
24 volume 51.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
53
1 MR SHELDON: You have been, Ms Hartley-Martin, an assistant
2 to the pastors at the Universal Church of the Kingdom of
3 God since 1998; is that right?
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: Is that a full-time role?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
7 MR SHELDON: How long do you spend on average in a week?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It is a voluntary basis. I spend --
9 about four times a week I am there.
10 MR SHELDON: Four days a week?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Four days a week.
12 MR SHELDON: It says on your CV that you have been working
13 to set up your own business since 1998; is that right?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: What sort of business is that?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: A tea/coffee shop.
17 MR SHELDON: It is a coffee shop?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Tea/coffee shop, yes.
19 MR SHELDON: You told the Old Bailey at the beginning of
20 this year that you were a finance manager.
21 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I was, yes.
22 MR SHELDON: I see. When did you stop being a finance
23 manager?
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: In 1998 when I gave up to start the
25 tea/coffee shop.
54
1 MR SHELDON: I see. Why did you tell the Old Bailey
2 you were a finance manager then in 2001?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I am qualified. I am a qualified
4 finance -- that is my job. That is my career.
5 MR SHELDON: The work you do for the church is a voluntary
6 role, is it not?
7 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It is.
8 MR SHELDON: You will correct me if I am wrong but it seems
9 as though it involves offering counselling and prayer to
10 members of the congregation?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: Helping out with the creche from time to time?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: Doing visits on request to homes, prisons,
15 hospitals?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: And generally assisting pastors during the
18 course of services?
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: I note from your CV attached to your statement
21 that you spent three years as a social worker; is that
22 right?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: Between 1973 and 1976?
25 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: 19 -- yes.
55
1 MR SHELDON: What sort of social work did you do?
2 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: First I started off at residential
3 social work and I also did unqualified field social work
4 for a short period.
5 MR SHELDON: Did you ever work with children and families?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, I have.
7 MR SHELDON: In what context?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: At children's homes we have children who
9 have been abused. That is why they are in the homes.
10 When I did unqualified social work, it is to go with
11 a social worker; we go through families who were having
12 problems, elderly, et cetera, so it was a wider area as
13 a field social worker.
14 MR SHELDON: So during that three-year period as a social
15 worker you had fairly regular contact with children --
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: -- who had been potentially or even actually
18 the victims of abuse?
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
20 MR SHELDON: You list residential social work as one of your
21 qualifications on your CV.
22 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: Exactly what qualification did you have?
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It is an in-service course, so it is
25 a year in-service course to do with residential social
56
1 work.
2 MR SHELDON: Does it have a name?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: That was 1973. I cannot remember.
4 MR SHELDON: If you cannot remember then you cannot
5 remember.
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: I also see from your CV that you worked in the
8 health field for a couple of years.
9 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: As an aide to a physiotherapist; is that right?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: What did that entail?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: That was helping the physio with people
14 who had operations that are to do with -- it was
15 rheumatology, to do with bones, et cetera, so you help
16 the social worker to get people walking and generally
17 looking after the out-patient clinics on the days they
18 are due to come for checkups, et cetera. So that is
19 what --
20 MR SHELDON: I see, so you would occasionally in that role
21 come into contact with people who have difficulty
22 walking?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: Have you ever had any formal medical training?
25 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
57
1 MR SHELDON: So is there any reason for us to think that
2 you would know more about medical matters than the next
3 person?
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: (Shakes head)
5 MR SHELDON: Were you aware, going back to late 1999 and
6 early 2000, were you aware of any leaflets, guidelines,
7 manuals being used by the Universal Church of the
8 Kingdom of God about child protection?
9 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
10 MR SHELDON: Let me show you volume 1 quickly, starting at
11 page 137.
12 This is the start of a number of documents provided
13 to us by the church's Child Protection Advisory Service,
14 which is an organisation with which Pastor Lima is now
15 familiar. Are you familiar with it?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I am familiar with it, yes, since the --
17 MR SHELDON: I see.
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: How have you become familiar with it?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Because we are offered this course in
21 the church now. People who assist in the church, people
22 who are also work in the creche, they are given this
23 course to attend.
24 MR SHELDON: I see, so you have been on it?
25 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Not yet. It has been available.
58
1 MR SHELDON: Are you intending to go on it?
2 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I intend to go. Because I know social
3 work, I give those who have no idea the priority. So
4 I am going, yes.
5 MR SHELDON: I see. They refer to a manual at the top of
6 that page. Are you aware of whether or not there is
7 a copy of that manual in your church now?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I am aware of it, that it is there, yes.
9 MR SHELDON: It is there, is it?
10 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: Has your church put in place any policy or set
12 of guidelines itself for dealing with suspected cases of
13 child abuse?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Those people who actually attended this
15 course, they are given guidelines and, you know,
16 practices, et cetera, so as I have not actually attended
17 yet I cannot say exactly what it entails.
18 MR SHELDON: I see. Prior to your contact with Victoria,
19 had you ever come across, in your role as a volunteer at
20 the church, a case of suspected child abuse?
21 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
22 MR SHELDON: You had never had cause, in your role as
23 a volunteer in the creche, for example, to be concerned
24 about a child on the grounds that he or she might be
25 being abused?
59
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No. No.
2 MR SHELDON: If you had come across a child who you thought
3 might have been abused, what would you have done about
4 it?
5 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: My main concern would be I would
6 approach the pastor because I assist the pastor.
7 I would tell him my concerns for the child.
8 MR SHELDON: I see.
9 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: But we get the impression, and you can correct
11 it if it is wrong, that many of your pastors come from
12 abroad; is that right?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: And some of them may not have been in this
15 country for very long --
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: -- before they become pastors at your church?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: You are a social worker.
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: Or have been a social worker, and a qualified
22 one.
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: You know how the British social services
25 system --
60
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: -- works --
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
4 MR SHELDON: -- and you know what resources there are
5 available --
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: -- for people who suspect that they might be
8 dealing with a case of child abuse?
9 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: A pastor may not be.
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: So why refer it to him?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Because he has the authority inside that
14 church.
15 MR SHELDON: I see.
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, that is his --
17 MR SHELDON: It is a hierarchical organisation, is it?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, it is.
19 MR SHELDON: You would be in trouble, would you, if
20 you referred a child directly to social services without
21 going through a pastor and gaining his authority?
22 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, it is not a matter of trouble.
23 MR SHELDON: Then what is the problem?
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: You can respect -- it is like your
25 system here. You have people -- the Lord Laming is
61
1 there. There are cases that concern the case that
2 obviously you would approach him to say, "This is
3 happening". So it is a hierarchy. It is respect for
4 the authority and you go through those procedures.
5 MR SHELDON: But what is the point in informing the pastor
6 and gaining his authority about something that you know
7 far more about than he does?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, it is respectful that you should
9 approach a pastor. "Look, Pastor, this is what
10 I discover, this is what I notice; if this is a case, we
11 need to do this or do that", so you go there with the
12 problem and the solution if this is the solution.
13 MR SHELDON: I see, so you would go to the pastor on the
14 following basis.
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: "I think we should refer this case to social
17 services; is that all right with you?"
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: I see. Have you heard discussion or gained
20 an impression within the church since Victoria's case
21 that people within the church think they should have
22 handled Victoria differently?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Form an impression? Did you say --
24 MR SHELDON: Has anyone expressed the view to you that the
25 church should have done more to help her?
62
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
2 MR SHELDON: Anyone suggested that the church let her down?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I think we all let that child down.
4 MR SHELDON: How did you let her down?
5 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I think we all let her down because
6 we are not fully aware. We see things and sometimes we
7 choose to ignore them.
8 MR SHELDON: Do you think that the church should have made
9 sure she was seen by a doctor earlier than she was?
10 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know what the role of the
11 church is as regards to that responsibility. I know
12 very well as a mother myself that, look, there are
13 responsibilities that you take on as a mother, whether
14 you are in the church, outside the church, wherever.
15 It is a natural thing.
16 MR SHELDON: Do you think you should have told Kouao to get
17 Victoria to a doctor?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I was not aware that the child was ill.
19 MR SHELDON: Do you think you should have taken a firmer
20 line with Kouao when you spoke to her, to ensure that
21 she was looking after Victoria properly?
22 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: If you see from my notes there that
23 I did take the telephone number, I promised that I would
24 ring her, which I have done so, and that is because
25 I am -- of my concern.
63
1 MR SHELDON: You first came into contact with Victoria and
2 Kouao on 19th February 2000; is that right?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: That was a Saturday, yes.
4 MR SHELDON: Before we come on to the circumstances of that
5 meeting, had you heard any mention of either of them
6 before that occasion?
7 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
8 MR SHELDON: You were not aware, for example, of a previous
9 service where Victoria had run to the front, shouting?
10 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
11 MR SHELDON: Did you find out at any stage before her death
12 that she had been to the church on a previous occasion
13 before 19th February, when you first saw her?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Not at all, no.
15 MR SHELDON: At the time you became aware of them, you were
16 upstairs in the church; is that right?
17 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: You were assisting Pastor Lima in the 3 o'clock
19 service?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: Which is for prosperity and addiction?
22 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: What brought your attention to them?
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: The service had started and I normally
25 stand to the side, just to assist, if the pastor needed
64
1 something, et cetera, and we were a little way into the
2 service and I heard shouting coming from downstairs, and
3 it was quite high because I thought it was very strange,
4 somebody shouting, you know, when the service had
5 started.
6 MR SHELDON: Yes. What language was the shouting in?
7 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It was in French.
8 MR SHELDON: I see. That caused you to look down the
9 stairs, did it?
10 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes. It just caused me to look across
11 to where the voice was coming up the stairs, yes.
12 MR SHELDON: And you saw a woman and a little girl?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, I first saw a lady coming up the
14 stairs, yes.
15 MR SHELDON: I see. Did you see a little girl?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Not immediately.
17 MR SHELDON: How long after did you see a little girl?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: A little while after. I would say
19 about -- gosh, maybe half a minute or so. She was
20 walking very slowly, so --
21 MR SHELDON: I see. Was she on the stairs when you first
22 saw her?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I did not see the child. I saw the lady
24 first, so I did not see, so she was --
25 MR SHELDON: You say in your statement that the child had
65
1 difficulty walking up the stairs.
2 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: This is what I am saying, because --
3 MR SHELDON: So she must have been on the stairs when
4 you saw her?
5 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: She was coming up the stairs. What
6 I said there, first I saw the lady come up and, as she
7 came up, I still wondered why she was still shouting, so
8 I walk across now; so, as I walk across, I can see
9 she is still coming up the stairs.
10 MR SHELDON: Yes, it was a simple question. I just wanted
11 to know where Victoria was when you first saw her, and
12 she was on the staircase?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: She was still on the stairs.
14 MR SHELDON: Her appearance at that point, how was she
15 walking?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: She was walking very slowly.
17 MR SHELDON: "Shuffling along like an old lady", I think you
18 said in your --
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: She did not start -- she was taking the
20 stairs very slowly.
21 MR SHELDON: Let me finish the question.
22 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: You said "shuffling along like an old lady" in
24 the statement you gave to the Crown Prosecution Service.
25 Is that accurate?
66
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It is accurate when I saw the child
2 start walking across the level path of the church, yes.
3 MR SHELDON: Yes. So she was not walking like an old woman
4 when she was walking up the stairs?
5 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
6 MR SHELDON: How was she walking when she was walking up the
7 stairs?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Very slowly, holding on.
9 MR SHELDON: Did it seem as if she was having difficulty
10 walking up the stairs?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: You also noticed her shaking; is that right?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: When she actually came up to the top of
14 the stairs I saw her shaking.
15 MR SHELDON: Did you think she must have been ill?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I did not think -- I do not know what
17 I thought. I just thought it was very strange that
18 a child was walking like that.
19 MR SHELDON: Did you think she must have been ill?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know. It was very cold.
21 It was February, so it was very cold that day, so
22 I assume that she was just cold.
23 MR SHELDON: What has that to do with it?
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: When you are cold sometimes you do
25 shake.
67
1 MR SHELDON: Could you have a look at volume 46, please,
2 page 95.502. This is a statement that you gave to the
3 Crown Prosecution Service about ten days after Victoria
4 died. If you could have a look about six lines down
5 that page, a sentence starts:
6 "I then noticed that following her up the stairs was
7 a small girl."
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: "I immediately noticed she walked like an old
10 lady, bent over and shaking."
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Mmm.
12 MR SHELDON: "She was not walking normally and I thought she
13 must be physically ill."
14 So did you think she was ill?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I thought that she was cold. When she
16 came up, she was just -- to me she looked -- she just
17 did not look normal.
18 MR SHELDON: If you did not think she looked physically ill,
19 why did you tell the police ten days after her death
20 that she looked ill? (Pause)
21 The way this works is I ask the questions and then
22 you give an answer.
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: This is what I am saying. I can only
24 say what I see. I saw the child coming up and I said
25 look, she did not look right, she looked cold, she can
68
1 be ill.
2 MR SHELDON: Yes. You told the police that she looked
3 physically ill ten days after her death.
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: Is that right? Did she look ill to you?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I would say yes, she does -- she did
7 look ill.
8 MR SHELDON: Yes. Now, she was shaking?
9 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: What possible explanations do you think there
11 might be for a child shaking and walking bent over like
12 an old woman, unable to climb the stairs without
13 difficulty?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: We are assuming all sorts of things now,
15 but what I am saying is that she just looked like an old
16 lady, I thought that she looked very cold because
17 she was shaking, so --
18 MR SHELDON: There are two possibilities, are there not?
19 Either she is doing it on purpose for some reason --
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know.
21 MR SHELDON: Or she is seriously unwell. Are there any
22 other possible explanations?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know, sir. I just do not know.
24 What I am saying is that the way she was walking she did
25 not look right and to me she looked cold. She looked --
69
1 MR SHELDON: She was wrapped up quite warmly, was she not?
2 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: She was.
3 MR SHELDON: She had a coat with a hood on?
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: She had a woollen beret as well?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: Coat buttoned all the way up to the neck?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Woollen gloves on?
10 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: So how could you have thought she was cold?
12 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It was cold outside. You can wrap up
13 and you still feel cold.
14 MR SHELDON: Was the woman that was with her shaking
15 uncontrollably as well?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, no.
17 MR SHELDON: Was it a particularly cold day?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: Is your church heated?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: Did she continue to shake when you took her
22 down to the creche?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: When I took her down there, yes, she was
24 shaking.
25 MR SHELDON: Yes. You asked her if she was told cold and
70
1 she said no?
2 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: That is right.
3 MR SHELDON: So whatever was causing the shaking according
4 to her, it was not the cold, was it?
5 You flick your hand. I am not entirely sure what
6 you mean by that.
7 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know. I am just -- it is
8 you -- she said no, so what am I to think? No, she is
9 not cold.
10 MR SHELDON: I wonder what you did think because this child
11 is shaking; you have established that she is not cold.
12 What possible explanations did you then think there
13 might be for her shaking?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I still think that she was cold, because
15 I offered to cuddle her.
16 MR SHELDON: Did this not cause you concern? This cannot be
17 good, can it, a child shaking like this --
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, it did cause me concern.
19 MR SHELDON: -- even when she is in a warm church?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, it did cause me concern.
21 MR SHELDON: Did you think there must be something seriously
22 wrong with her?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: They had only just come inside the
24 church. They had only just come in and, as I said,
25 they were shouting, and in the shouting I asked the
71
1 mother, "Is it okay for me to take her downstairs to the
2 creche"?
3 MR SHELDON: No, they have not just come in the church at
4 this point. We were talking about the point where you
5 offered to cuddle her. That is after you have spoken to
6 the mother, taken her downstairs, given her biscuits,
7 held her hands between yours, and then you offered to
8 cuddle her. So she has not just come into the church.
9 She has been in the warm church for a while and she is
10 still shaking. That cannot be good, can it?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: When I cuddled her, she had stopped
12 shaking.
13 MR SHELDON: Did she?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, she did.
15 MR SHELDON: I see. We do not see that in any of the
16 statements you have made before.
17 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, it is not there. You did not ask
18 me that. It was not asked me.
19 MR SHELDON: At what point exactly do you say she stopped
20 shaking?
21 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: As I had her there in my hands and she
22 was there, in my arms, because I had her on my lap,
23 sitting on my lap.
24 MR SHELDON: How long had she been in the church by that
25 point?
72
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I have no ideal. She was just there
2 because I held her there until the end of the service.
3 MR SHELDON: Let us see if we can try to work it out.
4 She walked up the stairs. That had taken her quite
5 a long time, had it not, because she was going very
6 slowly; yes? Is that right?
7 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
8 MR SHELDON: She had come into the room where the service
9 was going along and you had lifted her up onto a chair,
10 yes?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: You had then spoken to her mother for a while
13 and asked permission for her to take the child down to
14 the creche; yes?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: You had taken the child down to the creche and
17 you had sat her on a chair; yes?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: You had tried to warm her hands up with your
20 hands?
21 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
22 MR SHELDON: And you had investigated the possibility of
23 getting her some biscuits because she had asked you if
24 you had anything to eat?
25 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, I spoke with her.
73
1 MR SHELDON: Yes, and after that conversation you had at
2 some point later asked her if she minded if you cuddled
3 her?
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: And you did cuddle her?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: That was the point that she stopped shaking?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: So she had been shaking all the way up until
10 then?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: How long were you cuddling her before her
13 mother came down?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I am not sure what time the service had
15 ended, but she was on my lap when her mother came down.
16 MR SHELDON: I see, so how long from her entrance into the
17 church to the point where you started cuddling her and
18 she stopped shaking?
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I have no idea. I have no idea, I am
20 sorry.
21 MR SHELDON: What about the inability to stand up straight
22 and walk properly? Did you ask her what was causing
23 that?
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Ask the child or the mother?
25 MR SHELDON: Ask the child.
74
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
2 MR SHELDON: Did you ask what you thought was the mother?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: The mother was in the service, so I only
4 had the child to speak with.
5 MR SHELDON: Did you ask the mother? No?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
7 MR SHELDON: At any stage --
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, I did not.
9 MR SHELDON: -- what was causing the fact that her daughter
10 was unable to stand up straight and walk properly?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, I did not ask that question.
12 MR SHELDON: This is something you know a bit about, is it
13 not, because you have worked as a physiotherapist's aide
14 and you know there are various causes for people being
15 unable to walk properly. Why did you not trouble to ask
16 what the problem was?
17 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: When I asked the mother, when I saw her
18 shouting at the child again, I said to her, "Do not
19 speak to her like that".
20 MR SHELDON: Yes, I am asking at the moment about her
21 inability to walk properly and what investigation, if
22 any, you undertook to find out why that was.
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Mmm.
24 MR SHELDON: Did you undertake any?
25 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
75
1 MR SHELDON: Why not?
2 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I just still think that she was cold.
3 MR SHELDON: So you thought that her inability to walk
4 properly, her difficulty walking upstairs and the fact
5 that she could not stand up straight was because she was
6 cold?
7 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: That is what I am saying.
8 MR SHELDON: Is that right?
9 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, that is what I am saying.
10 MR SHELDON: But she had difficulty walking up the stairs
11 even when you went back up after the service, after
12 you had been cuddling her?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: She went with the mother up the stairs
14 after. The mother took her upstairs.
15 MR SHELDON: But you helped her, did you not?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, she followed up. She followed up.
17 MR SHELDON: I see. Volume 51, please, page 92.
18 This is a transcript of the evidence you gave during
19 the course of the criminal trial at the beginning of
20 this year. Look at the top of that page, please.
21 You were asked the following:
22 "What is the next thing that happened?
23 "Answer: She went, took the child upstairs to speak
24 to the pastor.
25 "Question: So this is back up the same 30-odd
76
1 stairs. Who went first?
2 "Answer: They went together. In fact, Mum went off
3 and we were close behind because I went up with them.
4 "Question: Again, any assistance from Mum?
5 "Answer: No.
6 "Question: What about you, Ms Hartley-Martin? Did
7 you assist the child at all?
8 "Answer: Yes, I helped her."
9 So you appear to have told the jury that you did
10 help her up the stairs, which is not what you have just
11 told us.
12 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I was just behind the child.
13 MR SHELDON: Did you help her?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I was just supporting her, I was just
15 behind her. I did not actually lift her. I was just
16 there behind her because, as she was going up the
17 stairs, I was like this. (Indicating)
18 So that sort of form of help.
19 MR SHELDON: Did you help Victoria up the stairs?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I helped her by supporting her with my
21 hands.
22 MR SHELDON: Why did she need support with your hands? Was
23 she having difficulty?
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Because she was still walking slowly.
25 MR SHELDON: That could not have been because of the cold,
77
1 could it, because she had been cuddled by you, she had
2 stopped shivering?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know, sir.
4 MR SHELDON: What did you think was causing her inability to
5 walk up the stairs unaided by you?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know, sir, because this is the
7 first time I have met the family. I have never met them
8 before.
9 MR SHELDON: By this stage, by the end of your dealings with
10 them, when you are helping her up the stairs after
11 you have given her something to eat and you have cuddled
12 her and she has stopped shivering, did you not think
13 then that there must be something wrong with her; that
14 she must be ill?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, I did think there was something
16 wrong.
17 MR SHELDON: Why did you not tell the mother to take her to
18 the doctor?
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: The pastor was speaking to the mother.
20 MR SHELDON: Why, when the pastor had finished speaking to
21 the mother, did you not tell her to take her to a
22 doctor?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I spoke with the mother afterwards and
24 I said, "Do not speak to her like that". The mother
25 used to tell me that she had many problems. She was the
78
1 mother of the child, she was the youngest child, and
2 she had many problems, so she went in to tell me that
3 she had other children.
4 MR SHELDON: With the greatest respect, that does not even
5 approximate to an answer to the question. Why did you
6 not tell the mother to take the child to a doctor when
7 you thought she was ill?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It did not occur to me to do that. It
9 did not occur to me to do that at all.
10 MR SHELDON: You were a qualified social worker.
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
12 MR SHELDON: You have worked in the health industry.
13 You have a child here who you now think is ill. If
14 you are going to dispense any advice to this mother at
15 all, why is it not, "Get this child seen by a doctor"?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Are you asking me a question or are you
17 letting me think?
18 MR SHELDON: Yes.
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Because I said before, it did not occur
20 to me to ask that question, or to suggest that to her.
21 MR SHELDON: Let us consider what other physical symptoms
22 you saw. You picked her up on at least two occasions;
23 is that right?
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
25 MR SHELDON: Once the in the auditorium and once when you --
79
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Not in the auditorium; above.
2 MR SHELDON: Above, and once when you sat her on your lap in
3 the creche.
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: Were you able to feel how heavy she was?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: She just felt -- I did not really
7 feel -- I was not looking for weight. I just lift her.
8 MR SHELDON: You did not notice anything particularly
9 unusual?
10 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, I did not.
11 MR SHELDON: That she was particularly light?
12 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
13 MR SHELDON: Was there anything about her face that caused
14 you concern?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Her face was a bit puffy. I just
16 thought that she might have been sleeping -- you know
17 when you sleep, your face is a bit puffy.
18 MR SHELDON: You said to the police that she had baggy eyes
19 and a puffy face; is that right?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: What did you think might be the matter with her
22 face?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I just thought that she was sleeping and
24 that she was brought out, you know, soon after she
25 slept, so just assumed that her face looked -- lack of
80
1 sleep or something.
2 MR SHELDON: Did you see the old burn mark on her face that
3 Pastor Lima recalls?
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It was dark. The face was dark, but
5 I really did not look for a burn mark.
6 MR SHELDON: When you saw them coming up the stairs first
7 time, you say that they were shouting; is that right?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Was that Kouao telling Victoria off, or were
10 they shouting at each other?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, shouting at each other.
12 MR SHELDON: You could not understand what was being said
13 because it was in French?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: Did they speak to each other in French
16 throughout this visit?
17 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, sometimes it is in English but --
18 not a lot in English, but mostly in French.
19 MR SHELDON: Yes, because there was one incident, was there
20 not, that you describe in the creche when Victoria told
21 Kouao that she had wet herself?
22 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
23 MR SHELDON: And that must have been in English --
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
25 MR SHELDON: -- because you understood it?
81
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: Of course, Victoria spoke English to you, for
3 example, when she asked you for food?
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: Did they speak in English to the pastor?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: So it was only when they were arguing with each
8 other or talking with each other that they were talking
9 in French?
10 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: So the mother is shouting at this child as they
12 are both making their way up the stairs and the mother
13 is making no attempt to help the child up the stairs, is
14 she?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: And she did not help her when they went back up
17 the stairs from the creche because, as we have
18 established, that was you?
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: (Nods)
20 MR SHELDON: Did the mother show any maternal affection or
21 care for this child while she was in your presence at
22 all?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
24 MR SHELDON: On the contrary really, she was shouting at her
25 the whole time, was she not?
82
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: When Kouao came down to the creche after the
3 service, Victoria jumped up off your lap immediately --
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
5 MR SHELDON: -- and hid the food you had given her?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: Did you think that was an appropriate way for
8 a child to behave --
9 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
10 MR SHELDON: -- when their mother walks in the room?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
12 MR SHELDON: Did you think that she must have been
13 frightened of her mother?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
15 MR SHELDON: You said that she told her mother that she had
16 wet herself.
17 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: And she just got shouted at for that, did she
19 not?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: No attempt by the mother to take care of her or
22 clean her up?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: (Shakes head)
24 MR SHELDON: Did she make any attempt to clean her up whilst
25 she was at the church at all?
83
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
2 MR SHELDON: Did you?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: She did not wet herself. I could not --
4 I did not notice her wetting me at all.
5 MR SHELDON: I see.
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: But she told her mother she did?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: The mother's reaction to that was simply to go
10 back up and see the pastor and then they leave the
11 church with Victoria in that state, if she was in that
12 state?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: She said, "Why did you wet?", you know,
14 and I said, "Look, it did not see, it did not matter",
15 and she went, "We have to go and see the pastor".
16 MR SHELDON: Yes. What did you think about her reaction to
17 Victoria saying she had wet herself? Did you think that
18 was an appropriate way for a mother to behave?
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
20 MR SHELDON: You agreed during the course of the criminal
21 trial that you were shocked by Kouao's behaviour towards
22 this little girl.
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: You said that you found her behaviour also
25 disturbing.
84
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: Very strange, was another way you put it.
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
4 MR SHELDON: You are, I would take it, Ms Hartley-Martin,
5 not normally the sort of person that would want to
6 interfere with the way people bring up their children.
7 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
8 MR SHELDON: But you were sufficiently concerned on this
9 occasion --
10 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: -- to go up and say something to this woman,
12 even though you had never met her before?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: That is right.
14 MR SHELDON: You said, "Do not talk to the child like that",
15 or something along those lines?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: What was her reaction to that, when you told
18 her?
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: She told me that she was the child's
20 mother and she was the youngest but she has got many
21 problems.
22 MR SHELDON: So let us just review the position.
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: You have seen the mother shouting at this
25 child --
85
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: -- constantly almost throughout the time she is
3 there.
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: (Nods)
5 MR SHELDON: She shows her no affection, offers her no
6 assistance, does not seem to care about the fact that
7 she seems ill.
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
9 MR SHELDON: Does not seem to care about the fact that she
10 may have wet herself.
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
12 MR SHELDON: And the child seems afraid of her.
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: You found all that disturbing --
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: -- and shocking. Did it cross your mind at any
17 stage that Kouao might be abusing this little girl?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It did not cross my mind at all, no.
19 MR SHELDON: You see this woman behaving towards a child in
20 a shocking and disturbing way.
21 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Mmm.
22 MR SHELDON: The child is clearly not well.
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Mmm.
24 MR SHELDON: Why did it not cross your mind? You have
25 worked with abused children before.
86
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It only -- the way she -- I thought that
2 she -- only verbally abusing the child.
3 MR SHELDON: Can you repeat that last answer?
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Because, as you said to me, "Did I
5 not think it was strange": to abuse a person, it can be
6 physical or verbally.
7 MR SHELDON: Yes.
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: So I thought that when she was shouting
9 at the child it was just verbal abuse. I did not know
10 anything about physical abuse.
11 MR SHELDON: So the fact that you thought it disturbing and
12 shocking --
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
14 MR SHELDON: -- you thought that it might be disturbing and
15 shocking in the context of emotional abuse --
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
17 MR SHELDON: -- rather than physical abuse?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
19 MR SHELDON: Well, emotional abuse is a serious matter, is
20 it not?
21 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It is.
22 MR SHELDON: Did you not think you should tell someone?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: What do you mean? An authority?
24 MR SHELDON: Well, anyone. Who did you tell that
25 you thought that this woman was behaving in a shocking
87
1 and disturbing and inappropriate manner towards this
2 child?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: The pastor.
4 MR SHELDON: After they left?
5 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: What did he say?
7 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: He said he had spoken to the family,
8 yes, and that, you know, we would fast and pray for the
9 family to be blessed, for their life to be changed.
10 MR SHELDON: Did you not think you ought to tell social
11 services?
12 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I passed it to the pastor. He is in the
13 authority to --
14 MR SHELDON: Yes.
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
16 MR SHELDON: Did you recommend to him that he should tell
17 social services?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I did not.
19 MR SHELDON: Why not?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I did not see it was necessary then
21 because --
22 MR SHELDON: Why was it not necessary?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Because it was the first time I met them
24 and it was just verbal abuse. I did not see physical
25 abuse. I saw verbally she was shouting at the child.
88
1 I do know that people shout at their children.
2 MR SHELDON: All right. You said you saw what you thought
3 might be evidence of emotional abuse and you agreed with
4 me that that is a serious matter.
5 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: (Nods)
6 MR SHELDON: You thought that the behaviour was disturbing
7 and shocking enough to raise it with the Kouao and the
8 pastor.
9 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
10 MR SHELDON: Why not say to the pastor, "Perhaps we ought to
11 let social services know about this child"? You are the
12 expert in your church.
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I did not say that.
14 MR SHELDON: I know you did not. Why did you not?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I did not suggest it, no. It did not
16 occur to me at all.
17 MR SHELDON: Is it because you thought that whatever the
18 problem was, the church and the pastors could deal with
19 it?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I just passed -- give it to the pastor
21 because I know that, even if I am not there, the pastors
22 are there all the time; the mother would come back, she
23 would obviously be speaking to the pastor, so I am not
24 there all the time.
25 MR SHELDON: Yes, because you have raised your concern with
89
1 the pastor and the pastor has said, "It is all right,
2 I have spoken to them, we are going to fast and pray".
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Mmm.
4 MR SHELDON: So you thought that that was sufficient, did
5 you?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, I -- this is what we volunteer to
7 do, just ask, but whatever decision you make as regards
8 to who you inform, I do not know.
9 MR SHELDON: Well, you must have thought that was sufficient
10 because you did not do anything else about it, so if
11 you had thought that more needed to be done, you would
12 have done it, would you not, or advised the pastor to
13 do?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I passed it to the pastor.
15 MR SHELDON: Yes.
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Then it is up to the pastor to make that
17 decision.
18 MR SHELDON: So you passed it to the pastor; he has told
19 you what he is going to do, which is prayer and fasting,
20 and you must have been satisfied that that was enough
21 because you did not tell him to do anything else.
22 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, no, this is what -- this is said
23 what we will do. What he does, I do not know, sir.
24 MR SHELDON: No, but you must have been satisfied that his
25 plan, as he explained it to you, namely prayer and
90
1 fasting, was sufficient because, if you had not thought
2 that it was sufficient, there was nothing to stop
3 you saying, "Okay, let us pray and fast but I think
4 we should also do the following things". You did not
5 say that, did you?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know if there was a plan afoot.
7 What I am saying is this -- he said there would be
8 prayer and fasting for the family. The decision about
9 what the church, what the church does, et cetera, as
10 an authority, I do not know.
11 MR SHELDON: Did you think that Victoria was possessed by
12 an evil spirit?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
14 MR SHELDON: Is that not what the pastor told you?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No. This is the first time I have met
16 the family. The first time. How can I assume that?
17 I have never seen a child being possessed, so I do not
18 know.
19 MR SHELDON: You have never seen a child possessed by
20 a demon?
21 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I have never seen it.
22 MR SHELDON: You knew that there was going to be prayer and
23 fasting for Victoria?
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
25 MR SHELDON: And you were going to be involved in that?
91
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: That was Pastor Lima's decision, was it?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: (Nods)
4 MR SHELDON: He was proposing that you and he --
5 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
6 MR SHELDON: -- prayed and fasted until the following Friday
7 morning?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Mmm.
9 MR SHELDON: To be precise, the deliverance service that was
10 going to take place at 7 o'clock that Friday morning?
11 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: What happened: the pastor said we would
12 fast and pray -- and because he would be doing the
13 service on the morning. So when people do come in on
14 that day, you do counsel people before they join the
15 prayer.
16 MR SHELDON: But your period of prayer and fasting was to
17 last up until the 7 o'clock service on Friday morning?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: This is when he told her to come back.
19 MR SHELDON: Your period of prayer and fasting --
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: -- was going to end at the 7 o'clock service on
22 Friday morning; yes?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
24 MR SHELDON: Thanks. You were going to fast for six hours
25 out of every day?
92
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: What were you going to be praying and fasting
3 for?
4 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: For the family to be blessed; there be
5 unity in the family, because obviously the child was
6 shouting, mother was shouting, so you fast and pray for
7 the unity and the blessing of the family.
8 MR SHELDON: I see. You were not praying for the
9 deliverance of the child from an evil spirit?
10 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
11 MR SHELDON: So it was just pure coincidence that the period
12 of fasting was going to come to an end at the
13 deliverance service?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It is not pure coincidence. That would
15 be a full week. If you start fasting on -- if it is for
16 a week and we started on Saturday --
17 MR SHELDON: Yes.
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: -- from Saturday to Friday, that is
19 a week.
20 MR SHELDON: Well, 3.30 in the afternoon on Saturday to
21 7 o'clock in the morning the next Friday is not a full
22 week. It is not even six days.
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, but if you are going to look at it
24 as a week starting from the Saturday, the Saturday to
25 the Friday, that is seven days.
93
1 MR SHELDON: Why did you not fast until the 3 o'clock
2 addiction service on the following Saturday?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Because then that would take it into
4 eight days.
5 MR SHELDON: This possibly is not a field in which
6 mathematics is particularly important so I will not
7 dwell on that, but I do want to understand that you are
8 saying it was entire coincidence that the period of
9 fasting was to come to an end at the deliverance
10 service, deliverance from witchcraft, bad spirits and
11 bad luck; pure coincidence?
12 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, that is for a week.
13 MR SHELDON: Despite the fact that you have heard
14 Father Lima give evidence today that he was of the view
15 that Victoria was possessed by an evil spirit?
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: That is his view.
17 MR SHELDON: I see. But you were fasting on his
18 instruction.
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: We do not sit down and discuss
20 confidential information according to people's
21 counselling.
22 MR SHELDON: But you have to know what you are praying for.
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: This is what I am saying. We fast for
24 the unity of the family, for the family to be blessed.
25 MR SHELDON: How did you know that that is what the family
94
1 needed?
2 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Because the child was shouting at the
3 mother and the mother was shouting at the child. She
4 said she was the mother of the child.
5 MR SHELDON: So Father Lima is praying for deliverance from
6 an evil spirit and you are praying for unity for the
7 family?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: He is a pastor, not a father. What I am
9 saying is this is what I prayed for.
10 MR SHELDON: But you now realise that you were praying for
11 two different things?
12 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: That is what is happening here now.
13 MR SHELDON: It is not the most effective way of going about
14 it, is it?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know, sir.
16 MR SHELDON: He did not tell you what he was going to be
17 praying for?
18 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
19 MR SHELDON: What happens at deliverance services?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Deliverance service is where you make
21 strong prayer for the person who believes they might
22 have an evil spirit in their life.
23 MR SHELDON: Yes. Have you seen people have evil spirits
24 cast out of them at deliverance services?
25 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
95
1 MR SHELDON: Sort of exorcism?
2 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
3 MR SHELDON: That is not what was intended for Victoria
4 though?
5 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
6 MR SHELDON: You look surprised.
7 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Well, you do not do deliverance on
8 a child. I have never seen that.
9 MR SHELDON: Right. Was your surprise surprise at the idea
10 that there might be a child who is possessed by an evil
11 spirit, or is that something that you think is perfectly
12 possible?
13 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It is perfectly possible, yes.
14 MR SHELDON: But you have never seen it?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
16 MR SHELDON: We should take from your answers that, despite
17 the fact that Pastor Lima thought that Victoria was
18 possessed by an evil spirit and despite the fact that
19 you were going to undertake a week's fasting, which was
20 to end at a deliverance service where people are
21 exorcised of their evil spirits on the Friday morning,
22 you had no idea there was any evil spirit problem going
23 on here?
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No.
25 MR SHELDON: You had telephone conversations with Kouao
96
1 subsequent to that first meeting.
2 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
3 MR SHELDON: I believe it was on the Thursday night, was it
4 not, that she phoned you up to tell you that Victoria
5 had been sleeping for two days?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
7 MR SHELDON: Even at that point, you did not advise her to
8 take her to a doctor, did you?
9 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Can I just say that I telephoned her on
10 the Wednesday --
11 MR SHELDON: I know you did. That is in your statement.
12 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes, okay. On the Thursday, I rang her.
13 I did not get a reply so I leave a message on her answer
14 machine.
15 MR SHELDON: Yes.
16 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: And she rang me. And I said, "How is
17 Anna?" I know her by Anna. That is what she told me.
18 And I say, "How is she?", and she said, "She has been
19 sleeping for two days and she has not woken up", and
20 I said, "No, has she not eaten anything?"
21 She said no. I said, "You have to wake her up and
22 give her at least something to drink because she will
23 get dehydrated".
24 So she said, "Okay, I will do what you say". So she
25 put the phone down and she went away.
97
1 She rang me back about five minutes after and said,
2 "Look, she is not under covers where I left her and
3 she is gone". I said, "What have you done?" I said to
4 her, "What you have you done?"
5 She said, "I rang the church", and she just dropped
6 the phone. She just put the phone down.
7 MR SHELDON: Yes, but the medical advice, or the advice that
8 you gave her in the first conversation was to wake the
9 child up --
10 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
11 MR SHELDON: -- and to get her to eat or drink something?
12 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
13 MR SHELDON: How on earth did you know that was a sensible
14 course of action?
15 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: This is a sensible course --
16 MR SHELDON: What if the child had meningitis? Giving her
17 something to drink would be of absolutely no use
18 whatsoever, would it?
19 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I have no idea. I have no medical
20 training. What I am saying is --
21 MR SHELDON: Why did you not advise her to get advice from
22 somebody that did, like a doctor?
23 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: What I am saying: look, if a person is
24 sleeping for two days and has not eaten or drunk
25 anything, even if you are ill, you should still be
98
1 drinking something, and that is what I suggest to her,
2 to do something.
3 MR SHELDON: Is it because you thought everything was going
4 to be solved at the deliverance service the next
5 morning?
6 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I did not thought anything, sir.
7 MR SHELDON: No.
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: My concern was about the child being
9 there.
10 MR SHELDON: You saw Kouao at the church early on the
11 morning of the Friday and she said that she could not
12 stay for the service as planned because she had to go to
13 the hospital; is that right?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Mmm.
15 MR SHELDON: You went to the hospital with another member of
16 the church?
17 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
18 MR SHELDON: Where you prayed with Kouao and you were there
19 when Victoria died?
20 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
21 MR SHELDON: Finally, you refer in your statement to
22 a written report you produced when you came back from
23 the hospital.
24 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
25 MR SHELDON: Was that standard practice?
99
1 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: Yes.
2 MR SHELDON: What did the report say?
3 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: It said exactly what happened, what
4 I did when I went to the hospital, what I did and what
5 happened, so I made that report out.
6 MR SHELDON: Yes. Has a copy of that report been provided
7 to this Inquiry?
8 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know. The police had obviously
9 got in touch with the church to get a copy of that
10 report, so I do not know whether it is here or not.
11 MR SHELDON: Do you keep the reports somewhere?
12 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: No, I do not, not for myself.
13 MR SHELDON: Does the church keep them?
14 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I do not know. I gave it in to the
15 church.
16 MR SHELDON: Yes, thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much indeed, Mr Sheldon.
18 I only have one question, Ms Hartley-Martin, and
19 that is, on reflection do you think the church let
20 Victoria down?
21 MS HARTLEY-MARTIN: I find that it is only the church that
22 had actually said to the mother, "Take this child to the
23 hospital". I think, if we had -- if I had seen that
24 child, you know, not covered up as she was covered up,
25 I know I would do something about it myself.
100
1 We are there to help the people. We are there to
2 help under the circumstances that they present you and
3 what you can physically see yourself. I have counselled
4 people with problems to do with housing; I refer them to
5 housing departments. There are people with "I am not
6 feeling well"; I said, "Go to your doctors". I have.
7 To see something like this happen to a child,
8 it is -- I mean it is very upsetting and, you know,
9 I just think to myself, "What more could I have done in
10 the situation, given I have only ever met that child
11 once", and the next time I saw her she was in hospital.
12 So I just feel to myself, in a way, if I had seen
13 more, I would -- because, as I said, my concern was for
14 the child and that is why I asked the mother for the
15 telephone number for me to ring, because I was then
16 really concerned about the child, what was happening,
17 and whether the church let down or not I just feel for
18 myself, in a way, yes, I have let that child down.
19 I just offered what I could at the time. The child
20 sitting on my lap; as a comfort to the mother, seeing
21 the child; and followed up with the mother, telephoning,
22 and really, even though I did not get an answer, I just
23 keep on pushing and leaving the message for her to
24 contact me. So I felt I did what I could, but in a way,
25 now I see all the situation, what happened, I feel that
|
