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Archived Transcript for 6 December 2001:
Pages 1 to 50
1
1 Thursday, 6th December 2001
2 (10.00 am)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Mr Garnham?
5 MR GARNHAM: Good morning, sir. Our programme for this
6 morning should have proceeded in this
7 way: Chantel Kimbidima, Julien Kimbidima, Alvaro Lima
8 and Audrey Hartley-Martin. Unfortunately, as yet
9 neither Mr nor Mrs Kimbidima have arrived and therefore
10 we would propose to begin with Mr Lima and proceed that
11 way. I would add that, if things move particularly
12 swiftly today, we will attempt to show the video at the
13 end of the day.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Indeed. Thank you very much, Mr Garnham.
15 MR GARNHAM: I will ask Miss Gibson to call the first
16 witness.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you. Miss Gibson?
18 MS GIBSON: Yes, thank you, sir. The first witness then is
19 Alvaro Lima.
20 MR ALVARO LIMA (affirmed)
21 MS GIBSON: Good morning, Mr Lima.
22 MR LIMA: Good morning.
23 MS GIBSON: Could you begin by giving the Inquiry your full
24 name?
25 MR LIMA: My name is Alvaro Lima Junior.
2
1 MS GIBSON: Thank you. You have made one statement for the
2 Inquiry which is at volume 7, page 114. I think
3 you have a copy of that statement in front of you?
4 MR LIMA: Yes, I do.
5 MS GIBSON: Can you confirm that the contents of that
6 statement are true?
7 MR LIMA: They are indeed.
8 MS GIBSON: Thank you. You also made, for the trial of
9 Kouao and Manning, a statement to the Crown Prosecution
10 Service which is at volume 46, page 138. Are the
11 contents of that also true?
12 MR LIMA: Yes, true.
13 MS GIBSON: Thank you. Just by way of background, it is
14 correct that you have been in the United Kingdom now for
15 I think some two and a half years?
16 MR LIMA: That is correct, yes.
17 MS GIBSON: You came here from Brazil originally?
18 MR LIMA: Yes.
19 MS GIBSON: Is it correct that you came to this country with
20 the church that you are with, United Church of the
21 Kingdom of God?
22 MR LIMA: Correct. That is right, yes.
23 MS GIBSON: So is it the position that they sponsored you to
24 come over here?
25 MR LIMA: Yes.
3
1 MS GIBSON: You came first as a student. Was that a student
2 in religious studies?
3 MR LIMA: No, normal course -- English course.
4 MS GIBSON: But after a few months you then moved into the
5 church to begin working there as a pastor?
6 MR LIMA: That is right, yes.
7 MS GIBSON: What does your training consist of when you are
8 going to become a pastor in that church?
9 MR LIMA: I go through Bible college, Bible studies as well,
10 and many courses. We have tests and after we have
11 concluded the tests we receive the qualification.
12 MS GIBSON: Do you receive any training at all in issues
13 relating to child protection during your studies?
14 MR LIMA: Not at the time, but now I have a child protection
15 course.
16 MS GIBSON: I will ask you about that at the end of your
17 evidence, but the position at the time you came --
18 MR LIMA: Not at the time, no. Not at the time.
19 MS GIBSON: Thank you. Is it the position that many of the
20 people who attend your church come because they have
21 various problems in their life and they are looking for
22 help and assistance?
23 MR LIMA: Yes.
24 MS GIBSON: Those problems can include social problems,
25 problems with their housing, problems with their
4
1 children?
2 MR LIMA: I believe personal problems like family and things
3 of this sort, yes.
4 MS GIBSON: But some of those can include people who perhaps
5 have problems looking after their children?
6 MR LIMA: Could be. Could be as well.
7 MS GIBSON: Do you come across that sometimes?
8 MR LIMA: Not so often, but we do have it.
9 MS GIBSON: Do many people attend your church with their
10 children?
11 MR LIMA: Yes. Regularly.
12 MS GIBSON: You have various meetings at the church.
13 Different days are dedicated to different problems?
14 MR LIMA: Yes, we do.
15 MS GIBSON: I think certainly up to the time that Victoria
16 attended your church, Monday was a service in respect of
17 financial life?
18 MR LIMA: Yes.
19 MS GIBSON: Is that still the position?
20 MR LIMA: Still is, yes.
21 MS GIBSON: Tuesday is a day for healing?
22 MR LIMA: (Nods)
23 MS GIBSON: Wednesday is Bible study day?
24 MR LIMA: Yes.
25 MS GIBSON: Thursday is prayer for the family; Friday is
5
1 prayer for deliverance from witchcraft, bad luck and
2 everything bad or evil?
3 MR LIMA: Yes, that is it.
4 MS GIBSON: That is right?
5 MR LIMA: That is right.
6 MS GIBSON: Saturday is in relation to love life?
7 MR LIMA: Yes.
8 MS GIBSON: And Sunday, Holy Spirit?
9 MR LIMA: Yes.
10 MS GIBSON: I just want to ask you in particular about the
11 Friday service, prayer for deliverance from witchcraft.
12 Is it part of your belief at the church that people can
13 be possessed with evil spirits?
14 MR LIMA: It is something Biblical. We follow the
15 procedures of The Bible.
16 MS GIBSON: It is something Biblical but is it the position
17 that that is your belief --
18 MR LIMA: Yes.
19 MS GIBSON: -- that people can be possessed?
20 MR LIMA: Yes.
21 MS GIBSON: And within the definition of people, that can
22 include children being possessed, can it not?
23 MR LIMA: Could be.
24 MS GIBSON: Is that a yes, it can include children?
25 MR LIMA: Yes.
6
1 MS GIBSON: How would such possession manifest itself? How
2 are you aware whether someone is possessed?
3 MR LIMA: Firstly, we make a prayer. Yes, we make a strong
4 prayer and we ask the people if they felt anything or
5 only despair, and we speak to them personally, what they
6 felt, what was happening, and, according to what they
7 say, we pray again and we cast out this evil from this
8 person's life, by prayers.
9 MS GIBSON: Is it the position that children sometimes
10 attend those Friday services?
11 MR LIMA: Not children. Actually, we have our Sunday
12 school. We have our creche and they stay, the majority
13 of them, they stay in the creche and I believe only the
14 adults and youths over 15 years old, they stay there.
15 Not children.
16 MS GIBSON: But we know that certainly when Victoria
17 attended your church I think possibly her first
18 attendance was on Friday, when she attended in fact two
19 services?
20 MR LIMA: Yes, but I was not there on Friday.
21 MS GIBSON: You were not there but that happened in this
22 instance, that a child was present at the Friday
23 service?
24 MR LIMA: I do not know. I know about Saturday, when I was
25 there.
7
1 MS GIBSON: Yes, but it is right that other pastors at your
2 church gave statements talking about the Friday service
3 when Victoria had run into the middle of the meeting and
4 shouted out?
5 MR LIMA: I do not remember about these because I did not
6 give this statement, this evidence. I do not remember.
7 MS GIBSON: You do not remember about that?
8 MR LIMA: No, only Saturday is when I spoke to her.
9 MS GIBSON: Pastor Lima, I assume that must have been quite
10 an unusual occurrence, to have a child running out into
11 a meeting like that, or not?
12 MR LIMA: You know how children, they are. They run up and
13 down. I do not know what was happening, as I said.
14 MS GIBSON: This must have been a major event for your
15 church, to be the subject of attention in the criminal
16 trial?
17 MR LIMA: (Nods)
18 MS GIBSON: I find it surprising that you do not remember
19 that that was part of the evidence.
20 MR LIMA: As I am saying, I was not on Friday. They just
21 told me that the child was there, but I did not ask
22 anything; just on Saturday when I spoke with the family.
23 MS GIBSON: We know that your involvement was on the
24 Saturday, but, when you came to be involved with
25 Victoria on the Saturday, presumably you had heard from
8
1 the other pastors in the church at the time --
2 MR LIMA: Yes, I heard.
3 MS GIBSON: -- about what had happened on that Friday?
4 MR LIMA: Yes, yes, I did. I did hear, yes.
5 MS GIBSON: So you remember about that now?
6 MR LIMA: Yes, yes, yes.
7 MS GIBSON: Are you aware that children can be abused or
8 neglected sometimes by adults?
9 MR LIMA: Yes, I am aware. Yes.
10 MS GIBSON: Yes, and do you believe that that can happen?
11 MR LIMA: Yes, I do.
12 MS GIBSON: Presumably, you are aware that that was the case
13 at the time when Victoria came to your church?
14 MR LIMA: Not at the time. I did not notice there was
15 an abuse.
16 MS GIBSON: You did not notice it was abuse but you were
17 aware of the concept of abuse --
18 MR LIMA: Yes.
19 MS GIBSON: -- that sometimes adults can mistreat children?
20 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
21 MS GIBSON: Turning to that Saturday, it was 19th February
22 2000, you saw Kouao, Manning and Victoria after the
23 meeting that you held that day?
24 MR LIMA: Yes.
25 MS GIBSON: The 3 o'clock service. Can you describe what
9
1 Kouao's appearance was like when you saw her on that
2 occasion? Did she look well turned out, smartly
3 dressed?
4 MR LIMA: She was wearing -- it was really cold, the
5 weather, and she was wearing, you know, long sleeves.
6 She had a zip as well in front.
7 MS GIBSON: I am talking about the older woman, not the
8 child.
9 MR LIMA: The older woman. No, she was normally dressed.
10 MS GIBSON: Would you say she was quite smart?
11 MR LIMA: Normal clothes.
12 MS GIBSON: How did the child look to you?
13 MR LIMA: She was a quiet child but, when I first saw her,
14 she looked well and not really way off when I saw her.
15 MS GIBSON: You describe her as having a sad face. What did
16 you mean by that?
17 MR LIMA: She was like -- she was quiet. Sad face, quiet.
18 MS GIBSON: She had, I think you have said, very, very short
19 hair?
20 MR LIMA: Yes. Yes, she did.
21 MS GIBSON: You used the word "very" twice, so something
22 unusual?
23 MR LIMA: Yes, something unusual, yes.
24 MS GIBSON: In what way did her hair look unusual?
25 MR LIMA: It was a very short hair, like it seemed that
10
1 there was no hair at all.
2 MS GIBSON: Did that surprise you, to see a young girl like
3 that looking as though she had practically no hair at
4 all?
5 MR LIMA: No, it did not surprise me.
6 MS GIBSON: You remark on it, that you saw very, very short
7 hair.
8 MR LIMA: Yes.
9 MS GIBSON: Practically no hair at all. That is not normal,
10 is it, for an eight year-old girl?
11 MR LIMA: No. Usually speaking, it is not normal.
12 MS GIBSON: Did you notice that Victoria was bent over?
13 MR LIMA: She had difficulties to walk. She was walking
14 slowly.
15 MS GIBSON: Did you notice that she was shaking?
16 MR LIMA: When I spoke to her, she was not shaking a lot but
17 just a bit. Not shaking, really shaking.
18 MS GIBSON: She was shaking a bit?
19 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
20 MS GIBSON: Did it look like she was shivering with the cold
21 or did you think she was afraid? What conclusion did
22 you draw?
23 MR LIMA: No, I thought she was afraid because she was
24 speaking to me.
25 MS GIBSON: Did you see her walking, walking very slowly?
11
1 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
2 MS GIBSON: You did not mention these things in your
3 statement to the Inquiry. Why was that?
4 MR LIMA: Sorry?
5 MS GIBSON: You did not mention the fact that she was
6 walking slowly, bent over, and that she was shaking in
7 the statement that you made to the Inquiry.
8 MR LIMA: There are things that came out, you know, because
9 I do not remember -- it was over one year ago -- just to
10 implement it now.
11 MS GIBSON: In fact, Audrey Hartley-Martin mentions those
12 things but you had not mentioned them.
13 MR LIMA: Well, I forgot, but I did see this.
14 MS GIBSON: It is also the position, is it not, that the
15 child was scratching a lot?
16 MR LIMA: Not in front of me. The mother told me she was
17 scratching her but --
18 MS GIBSON: You did not actually see this yourself?
19 MR LIMA: No, I did not see.
20 MS GIBSON: Did you see any scratch marks on the child?
21 MR LIMA: Not in her body. I remember she had only a burnt
22 mark on her face, but not recent. Like, you know, when
23 you burn yourself and it takes time and it just remains
24 discoloured.
25 MS GIBSON: The woman and child were speaking -- or the
12
1 child spoke in English and French?
2 MR LIMA: Yes.
3 MS GIBSON: Do you understand French?
4 MR LIMA: No, I do not.
5 MS GIBSON: So you could not tell what they were saying to
6 each other?
7 MR LIMA: Not at all.
8 MS GIBSON: Audrey Hartley-Martin describes the fact that
9 Kouao was shouting at Victoria in French. Do you
10 remember that?
11 MR LIMA: Probably it was when the meeting was going on.
12 I was talking to the people and did not notice.
13 MS GIBSON: When you saw them, what was the woman that
14 you thought was Victoria's mother, what was her
15 behaviour like towards the child, Victoria?
16 MR LIMA: When she was shouting, you mean?
17 MS GIBSON: No, when you saw her with Victoria.
18 MR LIMA: No, normal behaviour. She did not show me
19 a different behaviour.
20 MS GIBSON: You say that Kouao told you about the child
21 messing up the house, putting poo in her mother's food.
22 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
23 MS GIBSON: This must have struck you as very strange?
24 MR LIMA: Yes. I felt it was very strange, yes.
25 MS GIBSON: It must have concerned you a lot to hear that?
13
1 MR LIMA: I tried to speak to the child, to see if it was
2 true, but I did not receive any -- you know, too much
3 answers. It was difficult. I was trying to see what
4 was happening.
5 MS GIBSON: Why did you need to speak to the child to work
6 out whether that was true or not, given that the mother
7 was telling you that?
8 MR LIMA: I wanted to hear, you know, from her mouth what
9 was happening.
10 MS GIBSON: Did you form the impression that Kouao was
11 unreliable in what she was saying to you?
12 MR LIMA: No, no, that was not the impression. Just want to
13 speak to her and speak to the child because she was not
14 responding. You know, I thought she was nervous.
15 MS GIBSON: What was Kouao's manner like when she was
16 talking about Victoria and describing the fact -- well,
17 describing her bad behaviour? Was she very talkative,
18 the woman?
19 MR LIMA: No, she was just explaining me what was happening.
20 She was explaining me what was happening.
21 MS GIBSON: These are very unusual things to be describing
22 about a child's behaviour. Was she distressed when
23 she was telling you, hysterical, any of these things?
24 MR LIMA: No, she was just saying that she tried many
25 places, she was looking for help. This is what
14
1 I remember. She was looking for help and she was
2 explaining me what she was trying to do with the child,
3 to help her.
4 MS GIBSON: Yes. The places that she had been looking for
5 help were other churches. I think she said she had been
6 referred on to you by a Roman Catholic church?
7 MR LIMA: Yes, this is what I remember. Someone -- I do not
8 know who was the one in the Roman Catholic church --
9 told her to come down to our church, yes.
10 MS GIBSON: So she had been looking for help from other
11 religious organisations?
12 MR LIMA: Yes.
13 MS GIBSON: Has anyone ever described the kind of behaviour
14 that Kouao was describing about a child before to you?
15 MR LIMA: No. Do not know.
16 MS GIBSON: You do not know?
17 MR LIMA: No, can you explain me again?
18 MS GIBSON: Yes. Had anyone ever described a child behaving
19 like this before to you?
20 MR LIMA: Right, sorry. No, no, never.
21 MS GIBSON: Did you think that there might be a problem with
22 the mother, that she might be unwell or mentally ill,
23 that she was describing such bizarre things?
24 MR LIMA: I did not think about anything.
25 MS GIBSON: You did not think about anything at all?
15
1 MR LIMA: I was trying to find out what was happening.
2 MS GIBSON: You then spoke to the child and you have
3 described what the child said to you, that she said that
4 Satan had told her to burn herself; is that correct?
5 MR LIMA: Yes, she did say -- yes.
6 MS GIBSON: Perhaps you can describe in your own words what
7 the child said to you.
8 MR LIMA: Yes, exactly this. I thought that probably she
9 heard from someone that she saw, or she heard from
10 someone.
11 MS GIBSON: Yes. The child also spoke about having
12 dreams --
13 MR LIMA: Yes.
14 MS GIBSON: -- and seeing a snake which was Satan?
15 MR LIMA: Yes, yes. This is what she told me.
16 MS GIBSON: Do people who come to your church often have
17 these sort of experiences?
18 MR LIMA: Yes, many people they have this kind of
19 experience.
20 MS GIBSON: Do you often have children who describe such
21 experiences?
22 MR LIMA: Not so often, but some of them, they have these
23 experiences as well.
24 MS GIBSON: How old are these children who describe these
25 things to you?
16
1 MR LIMA: Not as old as -- they are about 11, 13.
2 MS GIBSON: So it surprised you, did it, that this girl --
3 MR LIMA: Yes, it did surprise me, yes.
4 MS GIBSON: -- was saying these things to you?
5 MR LIMA: Yes.
6 MS GIBSON: What did you conclude about that?
7 MR LIMA: About what the girl told me?
8 MS GIBSON: Yes, why did you think that this child was
9 talking about these things?
10 MR LIMA: Probably she heard from someone, she saw TV, I do
11 not know, books, or her mother told her about this.
12 This is what I thought, yes.
13 MS GIBSON: Did you think it sounded, when she was coming
14 out with this, like something she had been coached to
15 say by someone, by an adult?
16 MR LIMA: I do not know if someone told her. I do not know
17 if she was taught. No, no. As I said, I presumed that
18 someone had said something to her because she was very
19 young.
20 MS GIBSON: How was she when she was describing these things
21 to you? How did she say them?
22 MR LIMA: What do you mean how did she say?
23 MS GIBSON: Was she quiet? Did she come out with it
24 reluctantly, or did she just say it very openly to you?
25 MR LIMA: She was very, you know, withdrawn. It was
17
1 difficult for me to speak to her because she was not
2 answering my questions at all. That is why I was trying
3 to answer -- but then when I spoke to her like this, she
4 just said -- I do not remember what she told me, but
5 quietly, you know, not shouting or crying.
6 MS GIBSON: What was the woman's behaviour like when the
7 child was describing these things to you?
8 MR LIMA: She was trying to show me: "Can you see what I am
9 saying is true? Even the child is standing what is
10 happening".
11 MS GIBSON: Did you get the impression that the woman was
12 quite keen for the child to be telling you what was
13 happening to her?
14 MR LIMA: Yes, yes, yes.
15 MS GIBSON: You, at this stage, formed the impression that
16 this child was too young to have come out with this
17 herself?
18 MR LIMA: Yes.
19 MS GIBSON: So the obvious conclusion is that she must have
20 been taught to say this by someone?
21 MR LIMA: Yes.
22 MS GIBSON: And do you agree that the obvious person to have
23 done that was the person that you thought was her
24 mother?
25 MR LIMA: Probably, yes.
18
1 MS GIBSON: That was particularly the case, given that the
2 mother was standing by, obviously very keen and pleased
3 that the child was coming out with these sentiments?
4 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
5 MS GIBSON: Did that not cause you to be very concerned
6 about this child?
7 MR LIMA: I was concerned, but the mother, you know, she was
8 so desperate to find help for her child, I did not,
9 you know, think about anything like the mother is doing
10 this, or -- did not arrive at this conclusion at all
11 because of her behaviour, the way she was telling me.
12 You know, even, "I want to help her, I have tried many
13 places", and I did not arrive at a conclusion at all.
14 MS GIBSON: From what you have just said, it sounded as
15 though you had arrived at that conclusion because
16 you took the view that the child must have been coached
17 and that the likely person was the mother, so you did
18 arrive at that conclusion, did you not?
19 MR LIMA: Yes, I found it strange and that is what I found.
20 MS GIBSON: Did you believe, as a result of what the child
21 told you, that she was in some way possessed with
22 an evil spirit?
23 MR LIMA: No, I did not believe.
24 MS GIBSON: I would like you to have a look at what you said
25 in the trial.
19
1 MR LIMA: Yes.
2 MS GIBSON: It is volume 51, page 253.
3 MR LIMA: Can you help me to find it here, please?
4 MS GIBSON: Yes. You have that there, 51/253?
5 MR LIMA: Yes.
6 MS GIBSON: You agree there that the child was possessed or
7 you took that view. I will just help you with it.
8 MR LIMA: Please.
9 MS GIBSON: In fact, to see it properly, you have to go back
10 to 252.
11 MR LIMA: Yes.
12 MS GIBSON: At the bottom, you were being questioned and the
13 question is:
14 "You thought that the child was possessed? Do
15 you understand the question?"
16 Do you see that?
17 MR LIMA: Yes.
18 MS GIBSON: And you answer:
19 "Yes, I do."
20 Then the question:
21 "What is the answer?
22 "Answer: Yes, I thought."
23 So there you are agreeing with the questioner that
24 you thought the child was possessed?
25 MR LIMA: Yes.
20
1 MS GIBSON: "And that is what the lady told you, is it not?
2 "Answer: Yes, it is. I did say that."
3 Would you now agree that your view at the time was
4 that this child was possessed?
5 MR LIMA: Yes, I thought she was possessed. I could not
6 affirm at all.
7 MS GIBSON: Not?
8 MR LIMA: Affirm that she was possessed. I thought she was
9 having a spiritual problem.
10 MS GIBSON: Why did you just say in your evidence before
11 you looked at that that you did not think she was
12 possessed?
13 MR LIMA: As I am saying, you know, it is difficult for me.
14 They have one here -- difficult for me to talk,
15 you know, about what happened. I know more or less.
16 You know, I do not remember. That is why.
17 MS GIBSON: This case must be a very unusual one for you.
18 It is not every day that you have --
19 MR LIMA: No, not usual.
20 MS GIBSON: -- that you have a child who describes such
21 a thing.
22 MR LIMA: No, it is unusual, yes.
23 MS GIBSON: And a situation that ends in a trial of the
24 people involved. If you had formed the view then that
25 the child was possessed and you had given that evidence
21
1 at the criminal trial, it is surprising that you have
2 forgotten about that now, is it not?
3 MR LIMA: Well, if you say so.
4 MS GIBSON: Given what you have just said about the child at
5 this stage, you have described her as being bent --
6 MR LIMA: Yes.
7 MS GIBSON: -- over, that she was shaking, had old burn
8 marks on her face; was describing very unusual things to
9 you, the sort of things that a child does not normally
10 come out with. Did you not consider that this was
11 a case where the child needed help from social services,
12 or perhaps from the health services?
13 MR LIMA: No, no. I could not notice, you know, I could not
14 see anything unusual in her body because, as I was
15 saying here, she was covered, you know. It was cold and
16 I did not notice that something was happening.
17 MS GIBSON: You agreed earlier in your evidence that this
18 child was bent over and she was coming out with the most
19 unusual things.
20 MR LIMA: Yes.
21 MS GIBSON: She was saying very strange things about Satan
22 that you thought had probably come to her from an adult.
23 MR LIMA: Yes.
24 MS GIBSON: It is not the sort of thing that happens every
25 day of the week in your church?
22
1 MR LIMA: Not with children, but with adults, yes. It
2 happens.
3 MS GIBSON: Given all of this, it is surprising that you did
4 not think it was appropriate to contact someone to help
5 this child.
6 MR LIMA: As she was saying, she tried many places and
7 no one helped her.
8 MS GIBSON: But the places she had tried were other
9 churches; not anyone who could perhaps deal with a child
10 who had serious problems.
11 MR LIMA: Yes, I understand what you are saying but I was --
12 as I told you, I was going to pray for the child and
13 we would keep -- you know, we would make a follow-up to
14 see what was happening.
15 MS GIBSON: Is this right, because you believed that if
16 you pray for the child you could cast out the evil
17 spirit in her?
18 MR LIMA: No, I did not make a strong -- I prayed normally
19 for God to bless her only.
20 MS GIBSON: The plan was not just to pray, it was also that
21 you would fast, you and Audrey Hartley-Martin would
22 fast?
23 MR LIMA: Yes.
24 MS GIBSON: And then that they should return to the church
25 on Friday?
23
1 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
2 MS GIBSON: Why not invite them to come to your Tuesday
3 service?
4 MR LIMA: Because Friday is when I was going to be there in
5 the morning. I did not hold service on Tuesday.
6 MS GIBSON: But is it not the position that you are at the
7 church most of the time?
8 MR LIMA: Sorry?
9 MS GIBSON: You are at the church most of the time?
10 MR LIMA: Now I am because -- before, I was studying.
11 MS GIBSON: What days of the week were you in the church
12 then, at that time?
13 MR LIMA: I did not have, you know, like a schedule.
14 MS GIBSON: But Tuesday was the day for healing?
15 MR LIMA: Yes.
16 MS GIBSON: Thursday was the day for prayer for the family.
17 Those occasions might have been more appropriate for the
18 child to attend.
19 MR LIMA: But not about the day -- I knew for sure I would
20 be Friday in the church. That is why I told her to come
21 on Friday to speak to me.
22 MS GIBSON: It just so happens that Friday is the day for
23 prayer for deliverance from witchcraft, and that would
24 have been the appropriate day for her to attend, given
25 your view that she was possessed?
24
1 MR LIMA: Yes, but I told her to come to speak to me -- not
2 to attend this service -- to speak to me on Friday.
3 MS GIBSON: But your plan had been for you to pray for her,
4 to fast, and then for her to come on Friday?
5 MR LIMA: Yes.
6 MS GIBSON: Because you have already indicated that
7 you believed that people -- and that can include
8 children -- can be possessed and you also believe that
9 you have -- or the church has powers to alleviate that
10 problem?
11 MR LIMA: No, I did not say about the church having power.
12 As I said, we followed the procedures of The Bible.
13 MS GIBSON: Can we again look at what you said in the
14 criminal trial because it is somewhat different to what
15 you are saying now. If you would look again at
16 volume 51 -- I do not know if you still have that with
17 you?
18 MR LIMA: Yes.
19 MS GIBSON: Page 254.
20 This is describing what was going to happen. Again,
21 this is something that you do not mention in your
22 statement to the Inquiry. If we go over to 253, the
23 page before, you were asked:
24 "I suggest to you that there was a meeting when Carl
25 attended. I suggest that was the Monday, not the
25
1 Saturday. You, I think, disagree, but at any event at
2 that meeting you told them that you and the church would
3 pray for the child, did you not?"
4 You answer, "Yes".
5 "Question: And then there would be a period of
6 fasting?"
7 You answer, "Yes".
8 "Question: And that the child would be delivered of
9 Satan?"
10 And you answer, "Yes".
11 "Question: And that deliverance would take place
12 the following Friday, the 25th?"
13 You pause.
14 "Answer: I told her to come back on Friday."
15 You hesitated there for a long time there, Pastor.
16 Why was that?
17 MR LIMA: Yes, I know told her to come on Friday to speak to
18 her, not to act in this service.
19 MS GIBSON: You agree there though that the plan was for the
20 child to be delivered of Satan and that the appropriate
21 day for that to happen would be at the service on
22 Friday?
23 MR LIMA: No, it does not say about the service here. As
24 I say, I was going to speak to her on Friday.
25 MS GIBSON: Lower down the page, at E, you are again
26
1 questioned:
2 "You told that family that the child would be
3 delivered after a week on that Friday morning, did you
4 not?"
5 MR LIMA: Friday morning, yes.
6 MS GIBSON: "I did. I did say it. Yes, that is true."
7 MR LIMA: (Nods)
8 MS GIBSON: The significance of Friday morning was that
9 she was going to attend the service on Friday morning?
10 MR LIMA: Yes, it was when I was going to be there. Before,
11 I think I said I was going to speak to her to see how
12 the child was.
13 MS GIBSON: If the prayer and fasting was going to cause her
14 to be delivered, why did she need to come on Friday at
15 all?
16 MR LIMA: For me to see the child.
17 MS GIBSON: What effect was that going to have on the
18 process?
19 MR LIMA: Sorry?
20 MS GIBSON: What effect would you seeing her have? How was
21 that going to help if the prayer and fasting alone could
22 solve the problem?
23 MR LIMA: No, I wanted to see how -- her behaviour, if
24 she was getting better.
25 MS GIBSON: Who was to fast?
27
1 MR LIMA: Who?
2 MS GIBSON: Was it to be the woman and child as well?
3 MR LIMA: No, me and -- myself and Audrey.
4 MS GIBSON: Do you think it is possible that the woman
5 misunderstood you and thought that the fasting was to
6 involve the child as well?
7 MR LIMA: No, I said clearly myself and Audrey would do it
8 for her.
9 MS GIBSON: Do you not agree that there is a danger when
10 you are dealing with someone like the woman here who
11 believes in evil spirits and possession, that she will
12 not take appropriate steps, with regard to her child, to
13 take the child to hospital if the child needs to go to
14 hospital, if she is told that you are going to pray and
15 fast for the child?
16 MR LIMA: I prayed and I fast and when she brought the
17 child, when I saw her again, it was when I told her to
18 go to the hospital because she needed medical advice.
19 MS GIBSON: Yes. You told her that on the Thursday when she
20 came, but at that stage do you not agree that you had
21 seen a child who was bent over, shaking, who was saying
22 very unusual things, showing disturbed behaviour, that
23 there is a danger there, if you encourage someone who
24 believes, as you do, in possession, that you were going
25 to pray and sort things out, that that person will
28
1 believe what you say and will not take appropriate steps
2 to get medical help?
3 MR LIMA: When she first appeared, I did not see that she
4 needed medical advice. When she appeared again on
5 Thursday, so it was when I noticed she needed medical
6 advice because I saw clearly, but before, I did not see
7 anything.
8 MS GIBSON: At that stage, we know that is just a week
9 before this child goes to hospital and dies of severe
10 hypothermia. She is also very malnourished when she
11 arrives in the hospital. It is very surprising you did
12 not notice there was something very seriously wrong with
13 this child.
14 MR LIMA: I am sorry I did not notice. I am sorry.
15 MS GIBSON: Is the problem that, because of your belief,
16 you failed to take proper account of the fact that this
17 child was seriously ill because you thought you could
18 solve the problem --
19 MR LIMA: No, it --
20 MS GIBSON: -- by prayer?
21 MR LIMA: I did not say I could solve the problem. I was
22 going to pray and see how things would go and afterwards
23 we could take another step. And what surprised me, when
24 the woman, she said that the child was getting better,
25 it was like -- I prayed, you know, and the woman she
29
1 called the church and she said that the child was
2 getting better so I said, "Okay, it is working".
3 MS GIBSON: Pastor Lima, do you not see that there is
4 a terrible danger when you have people who come to your
5 church, who believe very fervently, that they will think
6 that you can solve all of their problems when in fact
7 you cannot?
8 MR LIMA: That is why I always say God is the one who will
9 do it for you and not myself. I let them know.
10 MS GIBSON: But there is a danger that people who have that
11 view will not take a child to hospital when a child
12 needs to go to hospital?
13 MR LIMA: But, as I said, I did not notice that she needed
14 medical advice that first time.
15 MS GIBSON: Yes, you did not notice but do you accept that
16 there is a danger that that might happen? It is
17 obvious, is it not, that there is a danger?
18 MR LIMA: It depends on people's ideas, thoughts, and ...
19 MS GIBSON: It depends on people's ideas and thoughts, but
20 many of the people who attend your church hold those
21 views very strongly so there is a danger, is there not?
22 MR LIMA: About what you are saying, that I am going to pray
23 for the person to be blessed, is this a danger?
24 MS GIBSON: No, not your praying for them but that the
25 person believes so strongly that they will not seek
30
1 appropriate medical help, or help from social services
2 or the police, whoever it might be as appropriate,
3 because they believe that you can solve all of their
4 problems?
5 MR LIMA: But you do not let a person believe that we are
6 going to solve the problem. We advise them and, when we
7 see that there is a need of medical advice, social
8 service, we direct the people. As I said, I did not
9 notice anything. That is why I did not do anything.
10 MS GIBSON: Other people at the church noticed that this
11 child was not at all well, not like a normal child.
12 Audrey Hartley-Martin sees her shuffling along as she is
13 walking, bent over. One of the other pastors thinks her
14 back looks so bent it looks like an elbow. You are
15 seeing the same child at the same time. I find it very
16 surprising that you do not notice any of these things.
17 MR LIMA: I did not notice.
18 MS GIBSON: Can we turn now to the Thursday, when you saw
19 Victoria.
20 MR LIMA: Yes.
21 MS GIBSON: What sort of state was she in when she came to
22 the church?
23 MR LIMA: That was clear that she was really -- you know,
24 physically speaking, she was in need of medical advice.
25 She was not walking properly. She was not opening her
31
1 eyes. When I touched her, she was really cold.
2 MS GIBSON: You say that she was cold and wet. In what way
3 was she wet? Were her clothes wet or do you mean
4 she was sweating and clammy, cold like that?
5 MR LIMA: No, it was wet, the clothes, when I touched her.
6 I felt, you know, it was wet.
7 MS GIBSON: Was it wet as though she had been put in water,
8 or wet because she was sweating?
9 MR LIMA: It was outside her clothes. It was wet. I do not
10 know if she was sweating or if it was the reason.
11 MS GIBSON: You may not remember, but was it raining outside
12 at that time?
13 MR LIMA: I do not remember, I am sorry.
14 MS GIBSON: What did her skin feel like?
15 MR LIMA: Her skin?
16 MS GIBSON: Yes.
17 MR LIMA: I could only see her face. She was covered as
18 well.
19 MS GIBSON: You said she was conscious but very weak.
20 MR LIMA: Yes.
21 MS GIBSON: She looked as though she was shocked. In what
22 way did she seem shocked?
23 MR LIMA: Because she could not speak, you know. She could
24 not open her eyes. When I tried to speak to her, there
25 was no reply.
32
1 MS GIBSON: You say that she was conscious, but weak.
2 MR LIMA: Yes.
3 MS GIBSON: Given that her eyes were shut and she was not
4 responding to you, how did you form the view that
5 she was conscious?
6 MR LIMA: Because she was opening her eyes and closing her
7 eyes, you know.
8 MS GIBSON: Were her eyes sort of rolling?
9 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
10 MS GIBSON: Yes?
11 MR LIMA: Something like this. Not rolling, but she was
12 opening, really --
13 MS GIBSON: So she was kind of opening her eyes and then
14 fading away again?
15 MR LIMA: Yes, looking around like this. She was like --
16 fainting, you know.
17 MS GIBSON: It is fair to say at this time this child was
18 gravely ill, seriously ill?
19 MR LIMA: Yes.
20 MS GIBSON: You, at that stage, advised the woman to take
21 the child to hospital?
22 MR LIMA: No, I did not advise; I told her to do it.
23 MS GIBSON: When you saw the man and woman with the child,
24 what was their behaviour like?
25 MR LIMA: The woman or the child? The woman?
33
1 MS GIBSON: Start with the woman. How was she? Was she
2 calm, hysterical --
3 MR LIMA: No, she was hysterical, desperate.
4 MS GIBSON: And what about the man?
5 MR LIMA: The man, he -- since I saw him, he was calm,
6 you know.
7 MS GIBSON: And the woman said that she did not want to take
8 the child to hospital?
9 MR LIMA: No, she did not want.
10 MS GIBSON: Was she quite strong about that?
11 MR LIMA: Yes, and then I said something -- I found it
12 something really strange, you know. It was when she
13 told me now, "What do you think about this? Do
14 you think that I am the one doing this?" And I said,
15 "But have you been doing something against the child?",
16 she said, "No, I love this child". That is when I said,
17 "So take her to the hospital".
18 MS GIBSON: You, because you asked her the question,
19 obviously formed the view that it was a strong
20 possibility that this woman had been the one who was
21 responsible for the child getting into this state?
22 MR LIMA: She told me, "What do you think about this? Do
23 you think that I am the one responsible for ..."
24 MS GIBSON: No, the woman -- you had formed the view that
25 this woman might have been the one who was responsible
34
1 for the child getting into this seriously ill condition?
2 MR LIMA: Yes, after I saw the child I started thinking this
3 way.
4 MS GIBSON: And the woman was saying that she was scared of
5 going to prison?
6 MR LIMA: Yes, she did say.
7 MS GIBSON: That must have firmed up your belief that
8 she was the person who was likely to have caused this
9 child to be in that state, the fact that she was scared
10 of prison?
11 MR LIMA: Yes, I thought but -- you know, it was really
12 difficult, the way she was speaking to me. She was
13 saying, "I love this child", and even crying. I said,
14 "My God, how is it possible this woman would be doing
15 this?" This is why I was in between two thoughts, but
16 I could not affirm anything because what she was telling
17 me did not correspond to what I could see with my eyes.
18 She said, "I love this child", so I started thinking,
19 "How can she mistreat the child if she loves the child
20 so?"
21 MS GIBSON: But you already agreed earlier on that you know
22 that -- or you knew then that people could mistreat
23 people --
24 MR LIMA: Yes, could.
25 MS GIBSON: -- and could abuse children. At that time,
35
1 could you think of any other explanation other than that
2 the person caring for this child, the person you thought
3 was her mother, must have been responsible for the child
4 getting into this state?
5 MR LIMA: After I saw that, I started thinking, as I said,
6 that she could be the responsible.
7 MS GIBSON: It was not could; it was fairly obvious, was it
8 not, that she must be responsible for this child?
9 MR LIMA: But as I said, you know, the way she was speaking
10 to me, the way she was crying and saying, "No, I love
11 this child", and --
12 MS GIBSON: Did you accept that from her? That she loved
13 the child and had not done anything?
14 MR LIMA: What can I do? I heard that and I advised her to
15 go to the hospital.
16 MS GIBSON: You heard her say that. Did you accept it,
17 given what you had seen, given what you had seen before,
18 when you saw this child on Saturday?
19 MR LIMA: As I said, I did not know what I should accept,
20 you know, because the way -- I was thinking she was
21 responsible, the way she was telling me.
22 MS GIBSON: Yes, so you thought that she was responsible?
23 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
24 MS GIBSON: Eventually, after quite a battle with her --
25 would that be fair -- she agreed that --
36
1 MR LIMA: No, it was not a battle, no. I was trying to
2 convince her to do it. It was not a battle. She was
3 shouting, you know, shouting but not a battle.
4 MS GIBSON: About how long were you in discussion with her
5 before she took the child to hospital?
6 MR LIMA: I do not remember exactly. I do not remember.
7 MS GIBSON: About half an hour or so?
8 MR LIMA: Probably less than half an hour.
9 MS GIBSON: Did you not consider calling an ambulance for
10 the child?
11 MR LIMA: First, I wanted to convince her that she needed to
12 go there, to the hospital. I tried to show her that the
13 child needed medical advice and, if she did not take the
14 child, I would do it myself for sure.
15 MS GIBSON: How could you rely on this woman to take this
16 child to hospital, given what you have already said,
17 that she may have been the one who caused the injuries?
18 MR LIMA: I know, but the way she was telling me, you know,
19 that she loved the child and she wanted the child to --
20 she cared for the child.
21 MS GIBSON: You just agreed though that you thought that was
22 unlikely.
23 MR LIMA: Sorry?
24 MS GIBSON: You thought that it was possible that she was
25 the one who had done this.
37
1 MR LIMA: Could be, but I did not have a strong
2 confirmation. I did not know if she was the one.
3 MS GIBSON: Given that the child was so ill when you first
4 saw her, do you not agree that the responsible action
5 would have been for you to call an ambulance
6 straightaway?
7 MR LIMA: I was going to do it but I was trying to calm down
8 the mother as well, because now there was the daughter,
9 the girl, and the mother was desperate.
10 MS GIBSON: Do you not agree though that in this situation
11 the child was the most important person and your
12 priority should have been to --
13 MR LIMA: It was the priority.
14 MS GIBSON: -- help the child?
15 MR LIMA: It was my priority. That is why I told her that
16 we did not have time to waste.
17 MS GIBSON: How could you possibly rely on this woman to
18 take the child to hospital? In fact, she did, but
19 you did not know that she would.
20 MR LIMA: She was together with the other man, Carl. That
21 is why. He was the one who took the child and she just
22 followed them in.
23 MS GIBSON: They were both with this child in this terrible
24 state?
25 MR LIMA: (Nods)
38
1 MS GIBSON: It is possible that both of them were
2 responsible for that --
3 MR LIMA: I did not notice, I am sorry. The man could not
4 speak. He did not say a word. I did not start,
5 you know, to think that he was responsible.
6 MS GIBSON: You made no follow-up calls to the hospital to
7 check that they had arrived?
8 MR LIMA: Sorry?
9 MS GIBSON: You did not make any follow-up calls to the
10 hospital to check they had arrived?
11 MR LIMA: No, I did not make any.
12 MS GIBSON: Or to the police?
13 MR LIMA: No, no, no.
14 MS GIBSON: Or to social services?
15 MR LIMA: No, no, no.
16 MS GIBSON: Why not?
17 MR LIMA: I did not do it.
18 MS GIBSON: Do you agree now, looking back, that you should
19 have taken those steps?
20 MR LIMA: For sure, now I agree 100 per cent.
21 MS GIBSON: Is it the case that you did not call any of the
22 services to come to the church because you were
23 concerned that -- or you did not want anyone to know
24 about the church's involvement; you did not want to have
25 ambulances turning up outside the church?
39
1 MR LIMA: No, that is not the case. I just did not know
2 which service I could call. That is why I even said
3 I will go myself to do it.
4 MS GIBSON: You did not know which service to call?
5 MR LIMA: No, like about social services, this, it did not
6 come to my mind.
7 MS GIBSON: The obvious service to call would have been the
8 ambulance service first. You have a phone in the
9 church, do you not?
10 MR LIMA: Yes, but I wanted myself to do it, if she did not
11 do it.
12 MS GIBSON: If she did not do it?
13 MR LIMA: Yes.
14 MS GIBSON: But again, it was very dangerous to rely on her
15 to do it; do you not agree?
16 MR LIMA: Yes. That is why Carl -- the man who was the one
17 who took the child. I was not worried about her. That
18 is why. We were talking, three of us -- two of us
19 together, and she took the child and he was the first
20 one who went with the child.
21 MS GIBSON: Do you think that, looking back now, your church
22 made any mistakes in the way that they handled this
23 case?
24 MR LIMA: Well, because this woman, we did not know her very
25 well. As you can see, I spoke to her three times.
40
1 I was still trying to find out who she was and what was
2 happening.
3 MS GIBSON: So is that a no, you do not think you made any
4 mistakes?
5 MR LIMA: Well, I believe that now I can say, as we have the
6 courses and we looked to this case, trying to offer the
7 best help to the people as well, according to what
8 happened. Many things could be done, could have been
9 done, easily.
10 MS GIBSON: Yes, many things --
11 MR LIMA: Could have done, sorry.
12 MS GIBSON: -- many things could have been done.
13 MR LIMA: Yes.
14 MS GIBSON: You had seen a child with serious problems on
15 Saturday, talking about worrying and unusual things --
16 MR LIMA: Yes. Like today, for example, if I see a child
17 like this behaving, for sure we will let the social
18 services know about the case, what is happening. I will
19 direct to the social services; but at the time I did not
20 know I was supposed to do it.
21 MS GIBSON: Are you aware of the church's Child Protection
22 Advisory Service?
23 MR LIMA: Child Protection Advisory Service?
24 MS GIBSON: For churches.
25 MR LIMA: Well, Louise Johnson is the one who takes care of
41
1 this department.
2 MS GIBSON: She is a member of your church?
3 MR LIMA: Yes, she takes care of the prayers, you know,
4 everything.
5 MS GIBSON: Do you have any guidance about how to handle
6 these situations now? Written guidance that tells
7 you what to do?
8 MR LIMA: Now I do have, you know -- I have been to a course
9 even two days ago, we finished child protection course.
10 MS GIBSON: And who are those courses run by?
11 MR LIMA: I do not remember the names.
12 MS GIBSON: It is by someone within your church or by
13 an advisory service?
14 MR LIMA: No, advisory service, yes.
15 MS GIBSON: Would you have a look at volume 1, page 141, and
16 see if you are familiar with this organisation.
17 MR LIMA: Yes, yes. This is the one.
18 MS GIBSON: You are familiar with this?
19 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
20 MS GIBSON: This is the course that you went on through this
21 organisation?
22 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
23 MS GIBSON: Perhaps you could just help with what the
24 content of the course is that you go on?
25 MR LIMA: It explains, you know, about -- it shows even
42
1 examples how you have to act when you come across
2 a situation with children, you know, when you are
3 suspicious that something unusual is happening.
4 MS GIBSON: Yes. What would your response be if you saw
5 a situation where you were concerned about a child now?
6 MR LIMA: Now, I would direct to the social services, for
7 sure.
8 MS GIBSON: Are you given training in possible signs of
9 abuse, how to look out for children who might be not
10 only physically abused but emotionally abused?
11 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
12 MS GIBSON: Does everyone, all of the pastors in your
13 church, do they all attend such courses now?
14 MR LIMA: It is still going on. I have concluded two days
15 ago but the courses are happening in the church, yes.
16 MS GIBSON: Have you ever actually referred anyone on to
17 social services or the health services?
18 MR LIMA: Not yet. Not yet.
19 MS GIBSON: Are you aware of anyone else within your church
20 having done that?
21 MR LIMA: No, probably not. I did not hear anything.
22 MS GIBSON: Yes. Thank you very much.
23 MR LIMA: Okay.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Miss Gibson. Mr Lima, just a few
25 questions, please.
43
1 MR LIMA: Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I may have missed it somewhere but how long
3 have you been at the church?
4 MR LIMA: As a pastor, or --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: How long have you been in this country?
6 MR LIMA: This country, it would be about three years now.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. In the time that you have been
8 involved with the church, how many seven/eight year-old
9 children have you come across that you would regard as
10 being possessed by evil spirits?
11 MR LIMA: She was the only one.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: So what made you think that she was different
13 from all other children you have ever dealt with?
14 MR LIMA: Yes, yes, she was different, yes.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. I am saying what made you think that
16 she was different?
17 MR LIMA: Sorry, her behaviour; what she spoke to me.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Please tell me more.
19 MR LIMA: The way she was saying, you know, about Satan and
20 things of this sort I found really strange for a child
21 to speak like this, because we do not teach in our
22 church -- young children do not speak like this, to
23 them, and I found really unusual.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you not consider that there might have
25 been other reasons for her speaking like this, other
44
1 than being possessed by evil spirits?
2 MR LIMA: Probably someone had spoken to her, had said this.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Here was a woman who had actually begun by
4 telling you that this child was ruining her life.
5 MR LIMA: Yes.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Destroyed her life. So is it not likely that
7 this woman had put ideas into her head of this kind?
8 MR LIMA: Probably, yes.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: If that were the case, did it not cause
10 you to stop and think, rather than just conclude that
11 this was the result of evil spirits?
12 MR LIMA: At the time, for what she was telling me, because,
13 you know, there were some things that she told me, that
14 she hated me and she did not like me because I prayed
15 for people; that is why it made me to think it could be
16 a spiritual problem.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: What, it offended your spiritual position,
18 did it?
19 MR LIMA: Sorry?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: It offended you that she spoke to you in
21 these terms?
22 MR LIMA: Yes, yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: How could you tell that this little girl was
24 cold?
25 MR LIMA: I felt, you know, I touch her skin.
45
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Just by touching her hand?
2 MR LIMA: Touching her, yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: You did not think that what she was saying to
4 you might have been a cry for help?
5 MR LIMA: No, I did not think.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you accept that children sometimes need
7 deliverance but need deliverance from the adults that
8 are supposed to be caring for them?
9 MR LIMA: Yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: And the church has a responsibility to
11 protect children?
12 MR LIMA: Yes, we do have.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Where is the headquarters of your church?
14 MR LIMA: Finsbury Park.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: But I think that you are part of
16 an international organisation, are you not?
17 MR LIMA: Other, the headquarters -- it is in Brazil.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: How much interest has the headquarters taken
19 in what happened to Victoria?
20 MR LIMA: This is something that I believe Louise Johnson
21 could answer. I do not know, I am not aware about this.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: So far as you are aware, your church has not
23 asked you anything about what happened to Victoria?
24 MR LIMA: Yes, the leaders of the church here, they were --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: But not in Brazil?
46
1 MR LIMA: I do not know in Brazil. Probably, yes, but I do
2 not know.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: But no one from the headquarters in Brazil
4 has asked you anything about what happened to this
5 child?
6 MR LIMA: Because I am not the one dealing with this case
7 directly, probably they spoke to -- not myself, yes.
8 Sorry. Yes, not myself.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: So far as you are aware, just so that I am
10 absolutely clear --
11 MR LIMA: Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: -- in your knowledge, you are not aware of
13 the headquarters in Brazil taking any interest in what
14 happened to Victoria?
15 MR LIMA: I am not aware myself.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
17 MR LIMA: Yes.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: I still find your answers to Ms Gibson
19 towards the end difficult to understand because they
20 seem to me to be contradictory, so you must help me.
21 MR LIMA: Yes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: The mother, as you understood her to be, did
23 not want to take the child to hospital?
24 MR LIMA: No, she did not want.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: In fact, she expressed that very strongly?
47
1 MR LIMA: Yes, she did.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: And yet you trusted her to take the child to
3 hospital?
4 MR LIMA: I trusted the man.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: But you had already been told quite clearly
6 by her she did not want to take the child to hospital?
7 MR LIMA: Yes, she did not herself, but the man was the one
8 who took the child.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, yes, but in the circumstances there
10 were two courses of action open to you: one was to call
11 an ambulance, and that would certainly have got the
12 child to hospital --
13 MR LIMA: Yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: -- or the other way would have been for
15 you to take the child to hospital?
16 MR LIMA: Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Why did you reject both of those courses of
18 action?
19 MR LIMA: When they decided to take the child to the
20 hospital, so ...
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, why did you decide against calling
22 an ambulance or you taking the child to hospital? Why
23 did you do neither of those things?
24 MR LIMA: I could have called but, you know, at the time,
25 because -- the way she was speaking, I said, "If you do
48
1 not do it, I will do it myself".
2 THE CHAIRMAN: But why did you not?
3 MR LIMA: Because she did. Because she took, with the man.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: You did not know that.
5 MR LIMA: Sorry?
6 THE CHAIRMAN: You did not know that. You did not know she
7 took the child to hospital.
8 MR LIMA: No, the man.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: You did not know he took the child to
10 hospital.
11 MR LIMA: No, they said they were going to do it.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: You are a trusting soul. Okay, thank you
13 very much indeed.
14 MS GIBSON: Sir, I was just handed a couple of questions
15 while I was on my feet and I think I should put those.
16 MR LIMA: Yes.
17 MS GIBSON: You mentioned the fact that you saw that
18 Victoria was walking slowly, bent over and shaking when
19 she visited the church.
20 MR LIMA: Yes.
21 MS GIBSON: We already noted that you did not put that in
22 your Inquiry statement but it is also the position that
23 you did not put that in your statement to the Crown
24 Prosecution Service.
25 MR LIMA: As I said, you know, there are some things that
49
1 you remember and you forget.
2 MS GIBSON: Your statement to the Crown Prosecution Service
3 happened some nine days after this event.
4 MR LIMA: You know, if you speak about the events, I do not
5 remember very well, clearly, about this.
6 MS GIBSON: But you remember it now.
7 MR LIMA: Mmm.
8 MS GIBSON: You must have been in a position to remember the
9 significant information when you were giving your
10 statement to the police for a very significant criminal
11 offence?
12 MR LIMA: But many things, you know, I do not remember and
13 I give what was, you know --
14 MS GIBSON: Is the reason that you have only just remembered
15 that now that at the time you did not want to, or
16 you wanted to play down the seriousness of how ill the
17 child was when you first saw her?
18 MR LIMA: No, I am willing to say everything, you know;
19 nothing to hide at all.
20 MS GIBSON: It is strange though that that important
21 information should only emerge now for the first time,
22 is it not?
23 MR LIMA: As we speak, you know, I keep on remembering,
24 I try to remember in my mind, you know, the pictures.
25 That is why.
50
1 MS GIBSON: Secondly, if you thought that Victoria was
2 possessed, as you agreed in the criminal trial, and
3 I think that was certainly on affirmation at the
4 criminal trial, how do you reconcile that with your view
5 or your statement that Victoria was being coached by her
6 mother?
7 MR LIMA: Because, like possession, there are different
8 possessions. You know, there are people they are
9 possessed 100 per cent, they cannot speak at all, and
10 people were facing these unusual things in life.
11 You know, it is not 100 per cent possessed.
12 MS GIBSON: I do not follow that Pastor Lima, because either
13 the child is possessed, as you believe that she can be,
14 or she is being coached by her mother. It is one thing
15 or the other, is it not?
16 MR LIMA: No, only if I show you, you know, the things that
17 are happening, that would be better to see and you would
18 understand what I am talking about.
19 MS GIBSON: Please explain because I do not understand how
20 a child can both be coached to say things and genuinely
21 possessed.
22 MR LIMA: When someone is possessed you can see clearly the
23 person does not speak herself, but the person speaking
24 thinks that -- you know, like the person is not there
25 100 per cent.
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